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Thread: 79 323i M20B23 Timing Specs.?

  1. #1
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    79 323i M20B23 Timing Specs.?

    I need the dynamic timing specs..

    The static timing spec. would help too.

    I can't seem to get it right (engine loping) with the "Z" mark at 850-950 rpm. My timing light is adjustable; it shows 27 BTDC on the "O/T" mark with the setting as mentioned above. I think the distributor pulley is off one tooth.

    Also, how do you set up the distributor position on the early M20b23 when changing the timing belt?

  2. #2
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    Here's some pics of the dist. marks. There's an inner and an outer mark (the inner mark is best seen in the lower left pic.). The ones on the left are on the Timing 'Z' mark(? BTDC). And the ones on the right are on the 'OT' mark (TDC).

    Before I take the timing belt off again, it would be nice to know:

    1) is the dist pulley in the right position? and,
    2) which mark should I use to align the pulley to when putting the belt back on?

    I been using my e30 manual for most specs., but this issue is specific to M20 engines with the dist. on the side of the engine.
    Last edited by peteymedic; 04-28-2010 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    your distributor seems to be in the correct position. BTW in order to get the distributor position changed you just pull the distributor itself out and put it back in the way it should be ( mark on the edge is where the rotor points).
    Your distributor looks fine, and your timing adjustment is wrong. timing adjustment is done at some revs and with vacuum hoses disconnected from the distributor. Adjust to Z mark. Can't help with revs, look for a sticker under the hood saying something like 23 deg at 3000 RPM or whatever.
    Normally on these cars it's best to adjust the timing by feel ( if you know what you're doing) b/c the gasoline is different and stock specs are too advanced for US gas anyway.

    Max

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    When we ask a question, it gets our brain working toward the answer. Sometimes we answer our own question by asking.

    After thinking it through and carefully examining the workings, I set the static timing on the "Z" mark with the ignition off.
    I set the crank pulley to the "Z" mark on #1 cyl. and rotated the dist. until the star and outer pins of the contact lined up.

    The "Z" mark was just a little retarded with the timing light; I adjusted it to "right on the money".

    After tweeking the idle speed there's still some loping/surging. I believe it might be some weak fuel. The car has been off the road since 1998. I had put about 5 gallons of fresh fuel in it not trusting the fuel gauge reading before starting it up for diagnostic testing. The fuel gauges reads about 40 liters.

    Thanks for your interest in the topic.

  5. #5
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    sticker on my door says 15 deg @ 1500rpm
    -Josh


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxl556 View Post
    your distributor seems to be in the correct position. BTW in order to get the distributor position changed you just pull the distributor itself out and put it back in the way it should be ( mark on the edge is where the rotor points).
    Your distributor looks fine, and your timing adjustment is wrong. timing adjustment is done at some revs and with vacuum hoses disconnected from the distributor. Adjust to Z mark. Can't help with revs, look for a sticker under the hood saying something like 23 deg at 3000 RPM or whatever.
    Normally on these cars it's best to adjust the timing by feel ( if you know what you're doing) b/c the gasoline is different and stock specs are too advanced for US gas anyway.

    Max
    Max,
    Thanks for the reply.

    I had just changed the timing belt and was suspicious that the dist. had moved one tooth at the pulley in the process. It true that one must remove the dist. to change its position otherwise.

    The process you refer to above is "dynamic" timing; checking the timing throughout the advance curve. With the vacuum hoses disconnected one is checking the centrifugal/mechanical advance (weights & springs usually). Then connect the hoses to see the vacuum advance settings. This dist has both vacuum advance and vacuum retard to control it during accel. & decel..

    There aren't any engine tune up or emissions spec. stickers in the engine compartment as one would see on a US model e21.

    I did get it worked out for now. I really appreciate the help. Thanks


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfast View Post
    sticker on my door says 15 deg @ 1500rpm
    That is great!! A sticker!

    Thanks, I'll use that as a guide line.

    BTW Does your 81 323 have any emissions on it, or is it straight K-jetronic without EGR etc.? My 79 does not.

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    it has a cat and egr(which is semi removed)

    you want a pic of the sticker?
    -Josh


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    Dynamic timing warm (normal operating temp) with engine running, vacuum advance disconnected.

    22' BTDC at fast idle (1500rpm).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfast View Post
    it has a cat and egr(which is semi removed)

    you want a pic of the sticker?
    I'm sure it will not help because mine doesn't have any emissions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madhatter View Post
    Dynamic timing warm (normal operating temp) with engine running, vacuum advance disconnected.

    22' BTDC at fast idle (1500rpm).
    Are there ANY emissions on it? (other than the pvc/idle air control)

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    this help any ?

    -Josh


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    Wayfast:

    That is really great info. I will use it as a guide. Its nice because it has all of the data points

    Thanks!

  14. #14
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    323i's didnt use much in the way of emissions systems. A good deal came fitted with an EGR valve and manifold, it used to plumb back into the other side of the inlet manifold, but most have been removed leaving a whole lot of vacuum hoses (most of which dont need to be there anymore) and the cast iron exhaust manifold with the egr ports in it.

    European vehicles just ran straight k-jet, so they didnt have a cat. A 323i with a cat is probably going to be something converted when it was federalized.

  15. #15
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    There were differences in static timing because of different distributors used over the years.
    When I used to have e30 323i's I had the same confusion and I found some great spreadsheet with data for all distributor #'s, so you know how to adjust stuff. I believe it was on e30.de webpage,search using your distributor #,you'll find info.
    There was always a sticker in the engine compartment in any euro car, yours had it but someone removed it. Original handbook will have specs as well.

    Now, I assumed you had the problem with initial position of the distributor and adjusting the dynamic timing ( because if the dizzy is not in place it won't rotate far enough to adjust the timing right).
    To set the initial timing ( static?) you need to have all marks set. Crank is set to OT, cam is set to mark on the head, distributor rotor pointing on the mark on the edge of distributor itself. That way the engine will start- then adjust the dynamic timing.
    Like I mentioned before, the numbers for timing adjustment may not work well on old euro motor, using US gasoline...All my euro M20's had detonation with the stock setting, even with octane booster and 92 octane...These motors were built to run on leaded gas with low amount of additives ( like MTBE and other crap we get in our gas nowadays). Have a professional set it by ear. Or learn yourself, it's not too hard if you can "hear" the motor.
    BTW 323i's with rebuilt heads ( shaved) I used to own always had kinda crappy idle, especially with dirty injectors and vacuum leaks. 264 deg cam won't tolerate vacuum leaks, some wear and crappy injectors together with the fuel which is different than it used to be.

    Max

    Hope it helps
    Max

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    the above page from wayfast and the specs i quoted are from bmw's own manuals, they dont list anything other than 22' BTDC

  17. #17
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    All of the info has been great!

    I found that the brake booster hose had a leak. Apparently, someone had ripped at it with pliers. Got the hose off a 320 in the yard and had to cut off about 3 inches to fit 323.

    Running smoother.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfast View Post
    it has a cat and egr(which is semi removed)

    you want a pic of the sticker?
    Could i get a copy of that sticker pic wayfast? Is that with the vacuum lines still plugged in? Is that in german or english? Regards!

    g323
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by g323 View Post
    Could i get a copy of that sticker pic wayfast? Is that with the vacuum lines still plugged in? Is that in german or english? Regards!

    g323
    i don't think it will help much. to my knowledge everything was plugged in. engine is out now, i'm swapping a m20b25 in



    on the left towards the bottom "comments: timing 15 deg @ 1500 rpm"
    -Josh


  20. #20
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    Thanks for posting that wayfast,
    Im not sure if i trust that thing there but it's definatly good to have another reference - the shop that imported the car is probably taking into account the catalytic converter too when it puts up that timing spec.

    Here is a photo of mine, for timing it gives "22b" what's the B mean? no rpm is given:

    323i timing.JPG

    Also, here is a very relevant quote from tricord's site:

    Marquis_Rex Posted Monday, May 17th 1:48am [Edit] [Quote] [IMS] [View car] Member
    Post nr. 86

    UK
    BMW 323i 2.7-as featured in Total BMW Nov 2002,Porsche 911/993TT
    Max, again, I'm a little pre occupied with air cooled flat sixes at the moment so can't get deep into this one yet, but I'll re-post a personal post about distributors and ignition curves I posted to someone on this forum. It doesn't answer your qustion directly, but it may give some pearls of wisdom an insight.

    "In terms of distributor, I used a late E30 323i dizzy. According to my listing there have been quite a few dizzys for the M20 over the years"

    E21 323i ("77-82) distributor no# 0237 302 006
    with quoted timing at 22 degs at 1500 rpm
    E21 323i late- 0237 302 032 same timing quoted as above
    323i 1982-1983 dist no 0237 302 038
    19degs at 3000 rpm
    323i 1983-1984 dist no 0237 302 040
    16 degs at 5000 rpm
    323i 1985-1986 dist no 0237 304 025
    16 degs at 5000 rpm
    320i/6 1982-1983 dist no 0237 302 037
    26 degs at 3000rpm
    320i/6 dist no 0237 302 039
    23 degs at 5000 rpm
    320i/6 dist no 0237 304 024
    23 degs at 5000 rpm

    I may have missed some dizzies.
    Evidently from the above the 2.0 litre 6 pot needs more advance then the longer stroke 2.3l. The distributor I used was the ###304-025 dizzy. After reviewing ALOT of engine data base stuff (I've touched upon this somewhere else) I still don't know WHY the the E30 323i is specced at needing such a low amount of ignition advance at high speeds. Even a relatively fast burning combustion chamber needs a good 24-25 degrees plus at 5000 rpm and looking at the BMW hemi chamber it looks like it has very little motion (BAD for burn rate) so it should need more.
    This is certainly true and when I flipped from my E21 ### 032 dizzy to the E30 ### 025 dizzy I found the engine utterly lacking top end go. In this country with our fuels and ambient temps and humidity even with 95 octane fuel there isn't a tendency to knock- its probably different where you are, so please be aware. I timed the #025 distributor to give me about 27-28 degs advance at 1900 rpm and the low to mid range was spot on- I did various 30-50 mph and 50-70 mph runs to varify and compared it back to back in terms of times achieved with the older 032 distributor. In the end I ended up taking the distributor apart- inside you'll find two springs and arms which open with increasing engine speed. I modified the "high rpm spring arm stop" to give me more top end advance. I wouldn't reccomend anyone do this unless they know what they're doing - you must use a protractor and bend the cetrifugal spring arm stop! I aimed for about 26- 29 degs advance at above 5000 rpm. [ Currently the E30 #025 gives around 16 degs and the E21 # 032 around 34+ at those heady speeds!]
    The e30 engine is strange in that it has a dizzy curve that after a point actually RETARDS the timing with increasing engine speed! It was this that lead me to wonder if BMW were protecting the engine for some reason!

    The thinking behind me using an E30 distributor was that when you modify a car with a long duration cam- you'll lose low end engine breathing or Volumetrc Efficiency and gain top end. When you have poor VE you need more ignition advance and when you have more you need less. So the E30 dizzy seemed ideal. In retrospect perhaps a 320i/520i/6 distributor would be better as it already has more top end advance. With the small 32mm E21 ports you're probably going to need as much high speed ignition advance as you can get -probably somewhere between the original #032 distributor figure ( around 34+ degs at high end) the #038 figure. I would reccommend you find out what your distributor number is first of all."


    Hope it helps a little....
    http://e21.tricord.be/forum/view.php?view=5504
    Last edited by g323; 06-02-2009 at 02:35 AM.
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  21. #21
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    btdc? before top dead center?

    not sure if that's what it means or not...

    i don't really know anything about timing, wish i could be of more help.
    -Josh


  22. #22
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    Haynes manual states 22°BTDC @ 1500 RPM.

  23. #23
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    Interesting discussion - I'm about to start up my 323i E30 1985 engine and next step is to check/adjust the timing.

    Yes, I know this is the E21 section but I thought my questions is applicable for both E21 and E30.

    So, I've aligned everything for a clean start (crank at OT, cam at specified mark, distributor at specified mark) but how do I adjust the distributor?

    I've only got a strobing light (but it's not adjustable). And the crank doesn't have any degree marks, only that Z mark.
    Bentley doesn't cover the E30 323i model
    Haynes says 23 degree BTDC @ 5000 rpm (BUT for a M20B20 engine)
    BMW owners manual says 24 degree BTDC @ 3000 rpm (BUT for a M20B20 engine)
    BMW owners manual says 19 degree BTDC @ 3000 rpm (for my 323i car)
    Shall take a look what the sticker says (probably the same as the owners manual).

    So how do I adjust the distributor?

    Should I rev the engine up to 3000 rpm and adjust until the Z mark is aligned (against the same mark as I aligned the OT mark)? Is the angle between the OT and Z mark then 19 degree?

    Why does Haynes and BMW have so big difference on the 320i model? Haynes says 23-24 degree @ 5000 rpm while BMW says the same BUT at 3000 rpm already.

    I don't get anything of this... Anyone please help?
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  24. #24
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    my website for the exact timing curve for your dist. You need to pull it out and confirm the part number. Also the site has the manuals for setting timing

    EDIT: Sorry, that last post was from the Iphone.

    To adjust the distributor you loosen one 13mm bolt and rotate the whole thing cw and ccw.

    You need to first remove the bolt and pull out the distributor, take the cap off first and rememeber where the rotor was pointing, your going to want to point it back that direction afterwards when you reinstall it.

    Get the part number off the side of the distributor and go to my website for the numbers and more information, here is a quote from my website on the numbers I have:

    http://sites.google.com/site/e21323i
    M20-B23


    Vehicle 323i E21 Built 1977-1983 Motor M20-B23
    0237 302 006 Basic setting 22 at 1500 Rpms Control 1 11-17 at 1000 RPMS Control 2 22 at 1500 Rpms Control 3 27-33 at 2400 Rpms Control 4 26-32 at 4000 Rpms

    Vehicle 323i E21 Built ?1982-1983? Motor M20-B23
    0 237 302 032 Basic setting
    Control 1 Link one on the subject
    Control 2 Link two on the subject
    Control 3




    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1982-83 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 302 038 Basic setting 19/3000 Control 1 10-18/1500 Control 2 13-20/2000 Control 3 16-22/2500



    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1982-83 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 302 036 Basic setting 19/3000 Control 1 11-19/1500 Control 2 14-21/2000 Control 3 17-23/3000



    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1983-84 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 302 040 Basic setting 16/5000 Control 1 9-16/1500 Control 2 12/19/2000 Control 3 15-21/3000



    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1983-84 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 302 043 Basic setting 19/3000 Control 1 10-17/1500 Control 2 13-20/2000 Control 3 16-22/2500



    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1985-86 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 304 025 Basic setting 16/5000 Control 1 3-10/1000 Control 2 12/19/2000 Control 3 15-21/3000



    Vehicle 323i/A Built 1985-86 Motor M20-B23
    0 237 304 027 Basic setting 19/3000 Control 1 4-11/1000 Control 2 10-17/1500 Control 3 16-23/2500



    M20-B20


    Vehicle 320i/A E21 Built ?1977-1982? Motor M20-B20
    0237 302 007 Basic setting 22+1 at 1500 Rpms Control 1 10-15 at 1000 RPMS Control 2 22 at 1500 Rpms Control 3 23-29 at 2000 Rpms Control 4 26-32 at 2500 Rpms Control 5 28-34 at 3000 Rpms Control 6 31-37 at 3500 Rpms



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1982-83 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 302 037 Basic setting 26/3000 Control 1 14-23/1500 Control 2 21-27/2000 Control 3 22-29/3500



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1982-83 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 302 035 Basic setting 26/3000 Control 1 11-19/1500 Control 2 16-24/2000 Control 3 22-29/350



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1983-84 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 302 039 Basic setting 23/5000 Control 1 13-22/1500 Control 2 20-26/2000 Control 3 22-28/3000



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1983-84 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 302 042 Basic setting 26/3000 Control 1 14-23/1500 Control 2 21-27/2000 Control 3 23-29/3000



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1984-85 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 304 024 Basic setting 23/5000 Control 1 6-13/1000 Control 2 20-27/2000 Control 3 22-28/350



    Vehicle 320i Built 1984-88 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 304 031 Basic setting 24/3000 Control 1 5-12/1000 Control 2 14-22/2000 Control 3 21-28/3000



    Vehicle 320i Built 1984-88 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 304 026 Basic setting 24/3000 Control 1 5-10/1000 Control 2 19-26/2000 Control 3 21-28/3000



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1986-90 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 304 024 Basic setting 23/5000 Control 1 6-13/1000 Control 2 13-23/1500 Control 3 21-29/2500



    Vehicle 320i/A Built 1986-90 Motor M20-B20
    0 237 304 024 Basic setting 23/5000 Control 1 6-13/1000 Control 2 13-23/1500 Control 3 21-29/2500
    Last edited by g323; 07-22-2009 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    My Website

    1982 323i

    Under the Hood:

    M20B23, Dogleg tranny, K&N Box Air Filter, Hayden 11inch Pusher Fan, redline tranny/diff fluid, Dual Exhaust,3.45 open.
    Braking/Suspension:
    Steel brake lines in front, front/rear 323i disks, Front and Rear Strut Braces, Lower Alpina(Ken) Bar, Kmac Camber/Castor Plates(Raise the front 1 inch), PolyUrethane Steering Rack Mounts, Rims = RG alloy wheel set (BBS design) silver 6x13“ KBA 40324, Tires: Sumitomo 195/60/13, Struts: Bilstien HDs Springs: Stock
    Body:
    087-Graphit-metallic, Euro Bumpers, BBS Valance, Foha Rear Spoler, Yellow Hella High Beams
    Interior:
    Recaro Front Seats, Sports Steering Wheel, Kph 220 Speedometer, Vacuum gauge, Air/Fuel Gauge

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by g323 View Post
    my website for the exact timing curve for your dist. You need to pull it out and confirm the part number. Also the site has the manuals for setting timing

    EDIT: Sorry, that last post was from the Iphone.

    To adjust the distributor you loosen one 13mm bolt and rotate the whole thing cw and ccw.

    You need to first remove the bolt and pull out the distributor, take the cap off first and rememeber where the rotor was pointing, your going to want to point it back that direction afterwards when you reinstall it.

    Get the part number off the side of the distributor and go to my website for the numbers and more information, here is a quote from my website on the numbers I have:

    http://sites.google.com/site/e21323i
    Wow, quite a list you have there! There seems to be a huge number of different distributors!

    Anyway, I was down in my garage today and my distributor is a "0 237 304 027" (since this car was shipped for the Swedish market there are a huge amount of "special" details when it comes to the engine and especially the exhaust system - cars destined for Sweden and Switzerland got a quite different setup with different exhaust manifold, exhaust pipes, distributors, vacuum hoses and so on and so on...)

    And your website nails this distributor perfectly

    Vehicle323i/ABuilt1985-86MotorM20-B23
    0 237 304 027Basic setting19/3000Control 14-11/1000Control 210-17/1500Control 316-23/2500

    So your website says 19@3000, my owner's manual says 19@3000 and the sticker in the engine bay also says 19@3000.

    So - got to be 19@3000 then



    But, how do I know where 19 degree is on the flywheel?

    I have an idea, I estimated the angle (well I measured the distance between the O/T and Z mark on the pulley and tried to measure the circumference of the pulley) between the O/T and Z mark to about 21 degrees.
    But my measurements were quite shaky so I assume the angle between the O/T and Z mark is actually 19 degrees - could it be like that?

    So then I simply have to connect the strobe light, disconnect the vacuum hoses from the distributor, rev it up to 3000 rpm and then adjust the distributor so the Z mark lines up with the alignment mark - is this correct?
    "And it's half past four and I'm shifting gear..."
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