Towing advice needed - 2500 vs 3500 SRW vs 3500 DRW

[vanderson]

I realize that there are several towing threads alive in this forum, but most of the ones I've found via search don't deal directly with what I'm seeking advice on (I could have missed one though - if I did, please point it out and I will kill/delete this thread ASAP....)

I am upgrading to a real tow vehicle in the next few months, in anticipation of getting a gooseneck enclosed trailer next spring, probably in the 34-38 foot range. For one race car, lots of spares, lots of tires, tooboxes, maybe some cabinets, etc. There is also the possibility that if I find the right price on a slightly longer trailer with small living quarters (40 foot range), maybe used, I would get that. But probably just the 35ish foot goose. Anyway, for a tow vehicle, I'm trying to decide on the following:

250/2500 Turbo Diesel
350/3500 TD Single Rear Wheels
350/3500 TD Dual Rear Wheels

I'm not picky about which brand, and although I know there are differences in the three, the basic premise is the same. The truck will be primarily used for towing (at least 80% of the time), with occasional daily driver duties and trips for bulk item purchases, or when the daily driver is unavailable, in the shop, etc. So although it will be used mainly for towing, I don't want it to be completely unusable for normal use, which is why I'm considering the 2500/3500 SRW.

My question for those out there who have towed with these various types of vehicles is - how much practical difference is there in the towing capabilities of the three? All three, regardless of brand, can be configured with almost exactly the same powertrain and almost the same gear ratios. The main difference is the payload capacity (i.e. bed payload, and therefore gooseneck capacity) and obviously the dual rear wheels of the 3500 DRW. The towing capacities are almost the same across all three, the dually has a very slightly higher 5th-wheel rating (approx 17k vs 15k), but I will likely not get up there anyway. Also, the GCVW ratings are in the 20,000 range for the 2500 and 23,000 for the 3500, so again, not a huge difference, unless I start to carry most of a complete parts car with me, or if I get a super-heavy trailer. Is the difference in stability between the three very noticable? I had been thinking this was a no-brainer, I was headed down the path of a 3500 DRW, but the latest batch of 2500 TD trucks are so capable, I'm wondering if the extra hassle of a dually (more friction and drag, more tires, wider, etc) would justify the extra stability I'm sure it offers - I just don't have any experience about how much extra stability it does offer. And does the 3500 SRW offer enough of an advantage over a 2500? I'm agonizing over this decision because I'm hoping to keep this truck for at least 3-6 years as my primary tow vehicle. Any advice/experience would be appreciated.

One very specific question I have is about the Dodge Mega-Cab 2500/3500's - with the short-bed's on those (6.25'), can they properly tow a gooseneck trailer? I need to go to a dealer and make some measurements, but off the top of my head, I'm concerned that the extended cab and the short bed could cause clearance issues with a large trailer, but I may be totally off base. I'm more interested in cab interior space than bed space, so the Mega-cab is something i'm interested in.... anyone happen to know?

Thanks!

Vern

[JoshS]

I realize that there are several towing threads alive in this forum, but most of the ones I've found via search don't deal directly with what I'm seeking advice on (I could have missed one though - if I did, please point it out and I will kill/delete this thread ASAP....)

I am upgrading to a real tow vehicle in the next few months, in anticipation of getting a gooseneck enclosed trailer next spring, probably in the 34-38 foot range. For one race car, lots of spares, lots of tires, tooboxes, maybe some cabinets, etc. There is also the possibility that if I find the right price on a slightly longer trailer with small living quarters (40 foot range), maybe used, I would get that. But probably just the 35ish foot goose. Anyway, for a tow vehicle, I'm trying to decide on the following:

250/2500 Turbo Diesel
350/3500 TD Single Rear Wheels
350/3500 TD Dual Rear Wheels

I'm not picky about which brand, and although I know there are differences in the three, the basic premise is the same. The truck will be primarily used for towing (at least 80% of the time), with occasional daily driver duties and trips for bulk item purchases, or when the daily driver is unavailable, in the shop, etc. So although it will be used mainly for towing, I don't want it to be completely unusable for normal use, which is why I'm considering the 2500/3500 SRW.

My question for those out there who have towed with these various types of vehicles is - how much practical difference is there in the towing capabilities of the three? All three, regardless of brand, can be configured with almost exactly the same powertrain and almost the same gear ratios. The main difference is the payload capacity (i.e. bed payload, and therefore gooseneck capacity) and obviously the dual rear wheels of the 3500 DRW. The towing capacities are almost the same across all three, the dually has a very slightly higher 5th-wheel rating (approx 17k vs 15k), but I will likely not get up there anyway. Also, the GCVW ratings are in the 20,000 range for the 2500 and 23,000 for the 3500, so again, not a huge difference, unless I start to carry most of a complete parts car with me, or if I get a super-heavy trailer. Is the difference in stability between the three very noticable? I had been thinking this was a no-brainer, I was headed down the path of a 3500 DRW, but the latest batch of 2500 TD trucks are so capable, I'm wondering if the extra hassle of a dually (more friction and drag, more tires, wider, etc) would justify the extra stability I'm sure it offers - I just don't have any experience about how much extra stability it does offer. And does the 3500 SRW offer enough of an advantage over a 2500? I'm agonizing over this decision because I'm hoping to keep this truck for at least 3-6 years as my primary tow vehicle. Any advice/experience would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Vern

I had a 40' aluminum gooseneck with 2 cars in it -- almost 14K lbs loaded. We towed it with a GMC Duramax diesel crew cab 3500 DRW, and then for a season with a GMC Duramax diesel extended cab 2500 SRW.

You know what? It was a lot more pleasant to drive the smaller truck, and there was never any perceptible difference in stability. We did have air springs on the 2500 though.

If I were to do it again for a trailer like that, I'd buy a GM Duramax/Allison 3/4-ton or 1-ton SRW.

Have you seen the GREAT 3-part HD Shootout article just published in pickuptruck.com? If you want a 1-ton diesel, they concluded that the Duramax/Allison combo in the Chevy/GMC can't be beat. But the gassers did surprisingly well too.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007...shootout1.html

[vanderson]

I had a 40' aluminum gooseneck with 2 cars in it -- almost 14K lbs loaded. We towed it with a GMC Duramax diesel crew cab 3500 DRW, and then for a season with a GMC Duramax diesel extended cab 2500 SRW.

You know what? It was a lot more pleasant to drive the smaller truck, and there was never any perceptible difference in stability. We did have air springs on the 2500 though.

If I were to do it again for a trailer like that, I'd buy a GM Duramax/Allison 3/4-ton or 1-ton SRW.

Have you seen the GREAT 3-part HD Shootout article just published in pickuptruck.com? If you want a 1-ton diesel, they concluded that the Duramax/Allison combo in the Chevy/GMC can't be beat. But the gassers did surprisingly well too.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/2007...shootout1.html

Thanks for the reply. I did see that shootout, and it was very interesting. The performance of the 2500 gas engines, especially the V10 Ford, was impressive.

Your experience is exactly what I was wondering - that the 3/4 ton trucks, optioned properly, and maybe with air springs, can be just as capable in the 12-14k lb range as a dually, with no huge difference in stability. I don't have any experience with air springs - are those completely aftermarket, and how expensive are they and difficult to install/use?

Thanks!!!

Vern

[JoshS]

Ours were aftermarket. They are quite easy to install and use. When hooking up the trailer, just inflate them to about 40psi. During the installation, you route a tire valve out to somewhere accessible. Some people put them in the wheel well, but we replaced our license plate screws with them. Bleed them down when not towing (although we didn't bother to bleed them down just driving around during the race weekend without the trailer.)

They cost $250-$350, and can be installed in a couple of hours.

[jonmacs22]

If the tow vehicle will be mainly used for towing and not an around town commuter, then absolutely purchase a DRW. There is definite stability to be gained in the DRW set-up and the second you experience one strong gust of wind, you will be very thankful you have it. Remember that so much of this relates to safety even though you hope to never have to use the capabilities.

I drove a 2001 F250 7.3L TD for four years and now have a 2006 2500 GMC Dura/Allison. The difference between the two is night and day. I am a fool for not upgrading sooner.
The dura/alli combo is far and away the best option (especially 2006 and newer as it gives you a sixth gear, new turbo design, more HP, and more torque).
Go drive the Ford and then the GM products and you will understand, the diesels in the Ford products are brutal when compared to the refinement of the GM stuff. I used to be completely wiped out after towing for four hours in the Ford, now I get out and am ready to unload everything, go racing, and smile. It matters trust me.

[vmwerks]

I have just gone through this very thing. I have a 2004 CTD 3500 with DRW. The trailer is a 48ft enclosed GN with limited living quarters. FWIW I towed it back from Merced unloaded and I could definitely feel the trailer behind me while accelerating. Once up to speed it was a smooth pull.

[m4f1a]

it's a pretty big trailer if you have room for a dually i'd get that. allison/duramax is the way to go.

[vanderson]

If the tow vehicle will be mainly used for towing and not an around town commuter, then absolutely purchase a DRW. There is definite stability to be gained in the DRW set-up and the second you experience one strong gust of wind, you will be very thankful you have it. Remember that so much of this relates to safety even though you hope to never have to use the capabilities.

I drove a 2001 F250 7.3L TD for four years and now have a 2006 2500 GMC Dura/Allison. The difference between the two is night and day. I am a fool for not upgrading sooner.
The dura/alli combo is far and away the best option (especially 2006 and newer as it gives you a sixth gear, new turbo design, more HP, and more torque).
Go drive the Ford and then the GM products and you will understand, the diesels in the Ford products are brutal when compared to the refinement of the GM stuff. I used to be completely wiped out after towing for four hours in the Ford, now I get out and am ready to unload everything, go racing, and smile. It matters trust me.

Sounds like you sell Chevy's for a living....

I have driven all three brands recently, all 1-ton TD dually's. After driving them back-to-back-to-back on the same night, I have exactly the opposite opinion. The Chevy was by far the noisiest, roughest, and most poorly refined of the three, hands down. Granted I wasn't towing, just driving them around. The Ford was the nicest and most luxurious, and the Dodge was somewhere in the middle. All were the top-of-the-line models (Lariat, Laramie, and LTZ). Just my opinion after a personal comparison, but I'm not particular to one brand over the other, so I'm not interested in a holy war. But my goal on this wasn't to debate brands, but rather the need for a 2500 vs a 3500 and DRW vs SRW. I'm already set on the TD and 5 or 6 speed auto regardless. I just don't want to buy a 1-ton dually when I could have had the same towing stability with a SRW truck. The dually will add stability, I'm sure, I just don't know if it is measurable in the 10-12k lb trailer weight range. And is the dually worth the extra friction/drag, slightly higher weight, extra tires, width, etc. And for that matter, how noticable is the difference between even the 3/4 ton and 1 ton SRW trucks, given the exact same drivetrain and rear ratios.

I will say this - the Chevy TD was the fastest unloaded, no doubt. Felt like a sports car off the line

[JoshS]

I'll just reiterate what I said -- conventional wisdom says that you "should" get a dually for a trailer of that size. That's why we started with one.

But circumstances got a little funky, and we ended up towing our trailer with a 3/4-ton SRW with the same drivetrain. No perceptible difference in stability, and the ride was a LOT better.

And this wasn't just a short tow. That 3/4-ton truck towed the trailer all over CA (from Fontana to Thunderhill and everywhere inbetween), up to Portland and Seattle (Pacific Raceways), and also out to Topeka and back.

Based on my personal experience, I think the convenience of a SRW truck, not to mention the considerably better ride, makes the dually more than unnecessary.

[hairless ape]

Get the GM Allison Duramax combination, 3500 (one ton) SRW.

[vanderson]

Get the GM Allison Duramax combination, 3500 (one ton) SRW.

That may be a good choice. The 2008 pricing and options are not out for Chevy or Dodge, but the 2007 Chevy 3500's TD loaded are cheaper than the same 2007 Dodge and 2008 Ford's, actually by $1-2k. Everything I'm hearing and reading (and I always believe EVERYTHING I read on the 'net ) says the Duramax/Allison combo does rock. It kicked tail in that online comparison. I may have to re-test-drive that Chevy and see if my ealier noise and ride impression was a fluke. Aside from the towing stability aspect (which I'm not totally ignoring), the gooseneck tow ratings for the Chevy 3500 SRW is 14,600 vs 15,900 for the dually, so pretty close. Of course, regarding the SRW vs DRW - once you have a 260 inch long truck with a 167 inch wheelbase, do single rear wheels really make it that much more nimble and easier to manage? It's already a monster truck. Either way, it will probably tow pretty good.

Thanks for all of the feedback, it is appreciated.

Vern

[JoshS]

I wouldn't say that "more nimble" is in the list of differences between SRW and DRW that matter. What would be on that list are ride quality (both loaded and unloaded) and ease of parking (without the trailer.)

My wife used to get sick on long towing drives in the dually due to the ride, but never had an issue with the 2500 SRW, and this was with the very same trailer.

What I don't know is the qualitative difference between a 2500 SRW and a 3500 SRW, as I have no personal experience with a 3500 SRW.

[hairless ape]

I agree with Josh. Ride quality on the SRW models is significantly superior to the DRW. The only reason I suggested a 3500 was that, if you are moving up to heavy duty hardware like that, and towing a serious trailer like that, why not give yourself extra insurance and run a one ton chassis?

[BETO]

Have you driven them yet?
I did the Ford and Chevy 350/3500 DRW long bed, didn't do the Dodge since the large cabin comes with short bed only. Why long bed and DRW? I want a camper for the bed (camping and fishing), DRW for stability and traction.
I decided to buy the f350, but that's personal preference, looks, interior, options, etc. I didn't get the Ford yet since they don't have a blue truck here in Vegas, and if they don't find one, I'll stick to my SUV.
BTW, I almost got a loaded F450, but when I searched the mpg is insane, on average people are getting 10mpg, and the only difference with the F350 is the payload and towing a fifth wheel. I tested the trucks empty and loaded. The engine in the F450/350 is a beast.
Check which differential you are getting, some are good for towing only, but if you want to drive around town or freeway withou load, you need lots of diesel.
I put my decision on hold for now.

[jayhudson]

Vern-

I may be stating something you already know but I believe the GM 2500HD trucks have the same chassis, etc., as a 1-ton.

I drive a 2500HD with a gas motor but I've never towed anything as large as you're talking about. My trailers are, have been, bumper pulls.

Based on others experience and what I've heard, the GM deisels are quieter. If it were me, I'd be buyin' a GMC.

Jay

[scottn2retro]

I think one of the big advantages for the DRW is the margin in loading on the tires.

I know of cases where guys using 350/3500 SRW would be down to like 100 lbs. margin in load on the rear tires.

[jlcmd81]

Hey Vern, looks like you are still having a monsoon summer. My towing guru friend would say you are putting the cart in front of the horse, or truck in front of the trailer...whatever. He suggests figuring out exactly what type of trailer your are going to be towing before selecting a truck. Sounds like a heavy trailer if you are going to have living quarters. If you pick the truck first then you will be happier around town but maybe compromised in trailer choice. He would also suggest getting advice from a good RV dealer.

I like the TD option, got 7 mpg out to Hallett and back with a Chevy 2500 HD gas V8 and a open aluminum trailer

Racingjunk.com has a ad for some Featherlite gooseneck trailers, 2005 showcar haulers.

[whitney]

My car hauler experience is limited to pumper pull open trailers, but I have one SRW vs DRW experience to share with you as a data point.

I purchased a SRW 1994 Ford shuttle bus for our local independent sports car club (THSCC) in 2004. We put on a hitch and added a 14x7 dual-axle enclosed trailer at about 5000lb loaded.

It was a nightmarish towing experience. The long rear overhang on the bus meant that the trailer was pushing the back end of the bus around constantly. White-knuckle driving and almost impossible to keep between the lines. Added weight distribution and sway control which only marginally helped.

Then we ditched the single 245 rears and bolted up dual 225s. Night and day difference in towing stability. It's still not great, but it's like 80%+ better than with SRWs.

The moral of the story is that when a lot of weight is attached to the back of the truck, total amount of sidewall stiffness starts being important. In our case it was a solution to a problem, but if I were in your shoes and was planning a lot of long tows, that experience would lead me to duals no question.

Good luck!

[miklm]

I like the TD option, got 7 mpg out to Hallett and back with a Chevy 2500 HD gas V8 and a open aluminum trailer

That's brutal. I got 13MPH from TN to Barber and back with our open trailer which is actually a heavy-duty equipment trailer (haven't gotten around to getting a dedicated car trailer yet) with a full assortment of tools/generator/compressor/etc. and a 4-wheeler in the truck.

Same type truck you were using, except ours is a diesel -- 2003 GMC 2500HD Duramax quad cab -- you saw it when I picked up that roll bar. I have gotten as high as 17MPG loaded from ATL and back using a borrowed aluminum car trailer with my BMW on it.

I've driven all the major trucks, some dually, some single, mix of 3/4 and 1-ton, and my pick is the Duramax hands down.

[BlackM3Sedan]

Another data point:
'03 F-250 Crew Cab Long bed - 7000lbs loaded
36' Kaufman Trailer - 12,900 loaded, 2500lb pin weight
GCW - 19,920lbs (GCWR - 20,000lbs)

Technically I exceeded the GVWR of the truck with 9500lbs (8800lb rating) but I was still under the GAWR and tire rating for the rear axle. The truck sits perfectly level and drives like a dream, bone stock (no airbags or load-levelers). I went with a SRW mainly because it was an open trailer and the wind loading was going to be a lot less than an enclosed. I would have probably opted for a DRW with an enclosed trailer.

[jayhudson]

I like the TD option, got 7 mpg out to Hallett and back with a Chevy 2500 HD gas V8 and a open aluminum trailer.

That's strange. I towed my race car on an open steel trailer (~5500lbs) for a couple of years. 03 GMC 2500 HD w/ 6L gas motor. I got between 10-11mpg, depending on the wind direction. Best was 11.3mpg. That's towing over mountain passes between Oregon and Norcal.

Jay

[vanderson]

Great data everyone, I really appreciate it. It looks like I'm not the only one who has had this decision to make, so I'm glad I brought it up. Lynn, I completely understand what you are saying about knowing what trailer I will get. However, I already know "generally" what kind of trailer I'm getting, so I'm not ignoring that aspect completely. I do know it won't be a 40'+ enclosed two-car trailer (which is definitely in dually territory), it will likely be a mid-30's gooseneck for a single car with some storage. I will get my trailer choice narrowed down a bit before I pull the trigger next month on a truck when the new 2008's are out for Chevy/Dodge. I do know I have to have the truck first before I buy the trailer though, my 1500 Avalanche will definitely not tow anything serious

Here's another question - approx how much does a gooseneck for one car with some storage space, in the 34-38 foot range, actually weigh empty? I know aluminum ones are lighter of course, but expensive, and I know that brand/details will make it vary quite a bit, but I really don't know what a generic/typical steel-frame trailer like that weighs empty - 3.5k-5k?

From what I can tell from my research, the cost, curb weight, towing capacities and option differences between a 3/4 ton and a 1-ton SRW are basically negligible for all three brands, so other than the slightly harsher ride (stiffer/more springs for the higher payload capacity) on the 1-ton, there is proably no reason to NOT get a 1-ton, especially if I'm not driving it every day. So now my question is SRW vs DRW. My over-engineering side tells me to get the dually, deal with the drawbacks, and be confident that I have the best rig available (short of a 450-550-etc). But my more rational side says that a 1-ton SRW TD with all of the trailering option goodies (rear stabilizer package if available depending on brand, etc) would likely be fine for what I'm doing. From that online test at Pickuptruck.com, it looks like the 3.73 rear end ratio didn't hurt the Chevy at all, and everyone is raving about the Duramax/Allison combo. There is a chance I may end up in Detroit very soon, working for one of the big 3, so that may significantly narrow my brand choice for me and make my decision consist of DRW and options

Thanks again for the data, keep it coming!!

[jayhudson]

Most of the trailer manufacturers have data/specs on their web sites. I know Haulmark does. Pretty sure Pace and Interstate do too. Just go looky at their goosenecks' specs.

Jay

[hairless ape]

If you do move to Detroit, you will need 4WD, whereas you probably should get 2WD if you remain in Tulsa, since you don't need 4WD to tow.

[vanderson]

If you do move to Detroit, you will need 4WD, whereas you probably should get 2WD if you remain in Tulsa, since you don't need 4WD to tow.

4WD was a given for me anyway. Paddocks can be muddy, so you don't need it for the tow, but you sometimes need it for the end of the tow. Plus Tulsa gets nasty weather, much worse than you would think. This past winter I drove on more snow and ice here than in my previous 30+ years in Pennsylvania combined. They don't have salt out here, so when it does snow/ice, it stays around. I was going with 4WD regardless, with a LS rear.