'95 LSD Warning for all ya's.........

**JETninja** · 07-24-2005, 09:14 PM

Ok, a few of you know I'm in the middle of a LSD rebuild....like a few others in here (search LSD in this and track forums) mine failed, I heard the "Bang" and then whenever coasting a sound like a cards in bike spokes.....

When I got it out, drained, removed cover...and found all but two of the small (6mm allen head..8 of them) bolts that hold the LSD guts cover in place..were missing. The remaning two were loose too! 3 were sitting on the bottom, careful cleaning brought out 1 plus a head (found one sheared off, bolt shaft is still in the LSD) and am still missing one!

Having put tons of brake cleaner, magnets, etc....I think it's gone. I suspect it came out with a diff oil change by the previous owner. (I checked my fluid and it was not there...and they can come out the hole..some tried when I drained it) I've only had the car since May, put a little of 1K freeway miles on it only!

I picked up a second '95 LSD...also 3.15 (I like that for my freeway miles) It too is around 100k old.....I open it up...all the bolts were still in. So I removed them all.....and like my original.....

Not one had any Locktite on them!!!!

Note, the TIS says each one should have Locktie 270 on it.....none did. I also removed the Ring Gear bolts (large..19mm bolt head) and they were a friggen bear to remove. (3 shops and bigger and bigger impacts to get them out!) They too are supposed to have Locktie 270 on them, and they do! It's easy to see.

Talking with Dan at Diffonline, he says he see's tons of '95s and that they are assembled like crap from the factory.

So just a heads up...while diff's don't cost what an engine does (Oil Nut) it can still ruin your day. I was lucky, my gears were not chipped (one got under the ring gear though, see gouges in the case bottom) and I'm able to reuse them.

I suggest if you drain the fluid, stick a magnatic stick in there and do some probing. If you find a bolt, pull that puppy out now.

All the failures I've seen have been on '95s...I do not know the date when they actually started putting locktite on like they should have at the beginning. Sorry no pics, my oldest boy busted the wifes killer camera! ****EDIT**** Have verified over the years since writing this that it happens on all years and all LSD's. Random but worth looking at!

You can see pics here:
http://www.bmwhow2.com/techarticles/.../lsrepair.html

And how to remove the diff: http://www.bimmerdiy.com/diy/e36diffswap

Same DIY here also: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=177945

Hey...not many have been affected...but who knows. I thought I should share...all of my bolts will have plenty of Locktite on them from now on!

Edit to say I never got a 3.15 to work without some noise..so I gave up and bought a 3.23 and have been happy ever since. LOL. (mainly cause the replacement 3.15 had been damaged in shipment)

Some more useful info from others it happened to before me - in the Track Forum. (Worth Reading!!!)

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=166399

From Rob of UUC

The bolt is part number is 33 14 1 206 924. The dealer can't get this number from the ETK, but the part is available when you give that number to them.

More Bolt info:

For several months, BMW and its parts suppliers couldn't find the bolt on their spares listing: it was officially 'NLA' .... No Longer Available.

I went and visited several engineering bolt suppliers here in Sydney and found a selection of replacement fine-thread bolts which would have needed the head machined and the shaft shortened. None of them were the recessed hex type but I wanted to get the differential back to its full complement of bolts.

Then, last week, I was speaking with a BMW motorcycle spare parts guy (!) and he offered to search for the bolt. He was a former BMW car parts man and it took him less than a minute to find that the old part number (33 14 1 206 924) had been superseded by this number 33 14 7 740 005 . All of the lunatics in the BMW car parts world couldn't see this on their systems: it took a motorcycle guy to find it.

Having just picked up the spare (two actually ... just in case) I can say that it is exactly the right bolt: M8x16 'Fillister' recessed hex head in high-tensile.

2/10 Edit. My 3.23 developed a nose bearing issue (was prob damaged in the wreck it came from, took 60K to get too noisy) so I put in another last year, its been fine. A neat way to improve the lockup is discussed in this thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1348666

8/10 Edit; Last diff lasted less then a year and less then 20K. No more buying used Diff. Found a solution:
Rebuild your LSD!

**RagnarDanskjold** · 07-25-2005, 12:51 AM

Bump to spread the truth for everyone's prosperity.

(i.e. I went through the exact same thing last fall)

**Def** · 07-25-2005, 01:04 AM

Yet more proof the 3.2's dominate the 3.0's?

As far as BMW putting things together wrong - tell me about it. Lots of bolts on the car are WILDLY out of spec on the torque on brand new cars. It's like the Germans get wasted and just let the robots go crazy on the car with all the torque they can muster.

**JETninja** · 08-02-2005, 11:10 AM

A bit more info/warning. Looks like one or both Axle's are toast. (inboard CV's) My thought is on that fateful day/drive, a cover bolt got caught under the ring gear. I was on a very smooth road, about 45mph...and the car did a violent shake like I'd hit a BIG pothole. And a large "Bang!". After that on decelleration, I get the loud "card in spokes" noise. I thought that was just the diff, but no...it's also the CV's. I think the momentum of the car (and sticky type R tires), then the dif tried to stop....something had to give. That would be the CV's. (I think also that was when the LSD case cover that was being held by maybe 3 of 8 bolts...sheared the head off one leaving two, and broke a tab off that cover under one of those remaining two bolts.) A lot of force happened in there during that easy cruise taking a son to his HS Soccer Camp!

My rebuilt dif (used my old case and ring gear, purchased carrier assembly and all assembled, gear lash adjustments, etc done by me after much research! Thanks to all that helped!) seems to work fine so far. But those CV's are freaking loud at highway speeds! LOL!

**ChipM** · 08-02-2005, 11:22 AM

So if I read this correctly, a preventative fix would be to remove the rear cover, and reinstall each of the allen-head bolts using locktite? Seems like it could be done with the diff installed?

Normally I ignore this stuff, until I found the oil pump bolts on our M62 in the bottom of the oil pan, and the small bolts holding the pump together loose...

**JETninja** · 08-02-2005, 11:34 AM

If possible, yes. I don't know if the cover can be removed (maybe with rollbar removed, jack under the diff since cover provides rear supports) when in car, and even with no Loctite they can be very tight. I had to cut 6mm Allens to fit (my replacement unit was also a '95...no loctite but all were tight) and I was able to remove and re-install 5 of the 8 on the bench with just the cover off. But I damaged three heads (they are soft bolts)...those 3 I could not remove that way. I used a Impact Driver and those three came right out...but that was after I had dissabled the entire unit. YMMV!

I also cleaned each bolt and every hole with brake cleaner....lots of Red Loctite. I don't want this puppy to ever come loose!

**ChipM** · 08-02-2005, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by JETninja

If possible, yes. I don't know if the cover can be removed (maybe with rollbar removed, jack under the diff since cover provides rear supports) when in car, and even with no Loctite they can be very tight. I had to cut 6mm Allens to fit (my replacement unit was also a '95...no loctite but all were tight) and I was able to remove and re-install 5 of the 8 on the bench with just the cover off. But I damaged three heads (they are soft bolts)...those 3 I could not remove that way. I used a Impact Driver and those three came right out...but that was after I had dissabled the entire unit. YMMV!

I also cleaned each bolt and every hole with brake cleaner....lots of Red Loctite. I don't want this puppy to ever come loose!

Ugh, sounds like a big job...I'll ignore it.

**RagnarDanskjold** · 08-03-2005, 12:11 AM

IF they were all still in, it seems possible. But if any of them are out, your best approach will be to remove and clean the whole thing.

That gear steel is damn hard stuff, and the OEM allen bolts were grade 8.8, but I still wouldn't want the shavings and ground bits floating around in there. When I got the flange from Jim Blanton, he also gave me beefier 12.8 bolts that I felt much happier with, loctite and all.

The case has a depression beneath the lowest point on the ring gear where bolt grinding started to wear into it. More gook I didn't want in there. It was also covering the pickup for the speed sensor.

**JETninja** · 08-03-2005, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by RagnarDanskjold

The case has a depression beneath the lowest point on the ring gear where bolt grinding started to wear into it. More gook I didn't want in there. It was also covering the pickup for the speed sensor.

Yeah, mine was pretty chewed up there.....I took my high speed dremal type tool and smoothed it all out some...I wanted to lessen the chance of any stress riser cracks happening from all the chewed up edges. I think the chance is remote, but the Aerospace Engineer in me couldn't leave it alone!

**Proctor750** · 08-25-2005, 04:25 PM

is this "inproper torqing" of bolts common in most M3's, i just bought mine...

**JETninja** · 08-25-2005, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Proctor750

is this "inproper torqing" of bolts common in most M3's, i just bought mine...

It's not improper torquing, it's BMW not following their own procedures. They forgot to put Loctite 270 on those bolts. (they did on the Ring Gear Bolts, all bolts inside the LSD per the TIS are to have Loctite 270 applied)

I only have two '95 LSD's..not a big sample....but a number of others have had the same failure....some open them and found the same thing. Some just replaced the LSD and never looked at whatever caused it. Dan@diffsonline tells me he gets many '95 LSD's and that they are poorly assembled.

**diffsonline** · 08-25-2005, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by JETninja

It's not improper torquing, it's BMW not following their own procedures. They forgot to put Loctite 270 on those bolts. (they did on the Ring Gear Bolts, all bolts inside the LSD per the TIS are to have Loctite 270 applied)

I only have two '95 LSD's..not a big sample....but a number of others have had the same failure....some open them and found the same thing. Some just replaced the LSD and never looked at whatever caused it. Dan@diffsonline tells me he gets many '95 LSD's and that they are poorly assembled.

I see many 3.15lsd, m3 and not that have thrown out bolts from the LSD carrier. If you ever hear a crunching sound then thats most likely what it is

**95m3Lightweight** · 08-25-2005, 07:30 PM

Both my 95 M3 and Seth Thomas's Lightweight experienced this problem. Mine was covered under warranty back in 97.

Mine started making clicking noises which sounded like the cv joint going bad, say like a front wheel drive car when turning with a bad cv joint. Took 4 dealers to find and FIX the problem.

Mike

**Lohe** · 10-11-2005, 09:11 PM

I had a freind with a 95 same thing happned to him o n the freeway.

**M52 POWER!** · 10-11-2005, 09:17 PM

AWW MAN I just swapped in a 95 M3 3.15 LSD into my 328is

So does this mean I have to take it BACK OUT again and rebuild it??

It was such a pita....

**diffsonline** · 10-12-2005, 09:33 AM

not all back out, you should be fine

**m3j0n** · 07-08-2006, 09:10 PM

can you tighten the bolts with the diff still on the car? I'm pretty sure its starting to happen on my 95

**Casebrius** · 07-08-2006, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by m3j0n

can you tighten the bolts with the diff still on the car? I'm pretty sure its starting to happen on my 95

??

I've had 3 unexplained BANGS happen over the past two years or so. 2 were a slow speed and the other was at highway speed. I need to get a magnet in there to see if that is my problem too. Can it be done with diff on car?

**Balthazarr** · 07-09-2006, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by m3j0n

can you tighten the bolts with the diff still on the car? I'm pretty sure its starting to happen on my 95

What are you hearing?
Build date?

**JETninja** · 07-09-2006, 01:32 AM

To get at the bolts you have to remove the rear cover...which also holds it (the Diff) in place in the car, so yes you need to drop it. I imagine you could take a magnet stick and slip it in the drain hole and see what you get.

Also, while it is possible to use a shorted allen on the bolts when the LSD is still in the Diff (just cover off) they are really soft and its very tough to get them loose, the allen wants to slip out...and you take a chance at rounding the head.

If the diff is out, its not hard to remove the end caps and slide out the bearings...just dont mix them or the shims that come out. (1 each side) Then the LSD can sit on a bench and you can use a Impact wrench with a 3/8"s socket allen. (think 6 or 7mm) They come right out then real easy. Clean them good and plenty of Red Loctite and your good to go. Refill with Royal Purple and be worry free...............

Having access to the TIS helps, you have to go to the E30 M3 area to find LSD info, but its almost the same as the E36 LSD and very helpful.

You should know that I never got rid of that card in spokes sound....so something was messed up with my pinion gear I think. After 8k or so I finally replaced it with 3.23 out of a wrecked '97.

**Balthazarr** · 07-09-2006, 01:40 AM

I read TommyR's writeup on this a year or more ago.
Something else to lose sleep over.

:

**m3j0n** · 07-09-2006, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Balthazarr

What are you hearing?
Build date?

so i figured this was happening since ive been hearing "card in the spokes" sound. I've been hearing it for about a week and i was really worried because i didnt know if it was the diff going, or my c/os that a shop just installed. After a 70 mile highway trip to my girlfriends apartment, the car felt a little loose (probably my imagination) and the noise was a bit louder. It sounded like the noise was coming from behind the drivers door. After i parked the car, i looked into the suspension to see if i could see anything majorly wrong.

GUESS WHAT I FUCKIGN FOUND! the drivers side rear wheel was missing 1 of the 5 wheel bolts and 3 of the remaining four where on thier way out. I almost shit myself. i tightened them down and took the car out. Problem completely solved. The rattleing sound i heard was the bolts rotating in the lug holes of the wheel. Lesson learned: check everything after taking your car to a shop. even the lug nuts. Losing a wheel at 100mph could have been REALLY deadly.

balthazarr - my build date is 12/94. Gladly, i dont think its my diff anymore

**JETninja** · 07-09-2006, 10:59 PM

Wow! Scary! Glad you found it, though when you get a chance I'd still ceck out the diff sometime. Searching way though history here, I've found many a '95 with diff failures. Most just had them replaced and never saw inside and why it failed. (the E36+ TIS does not give instructions on repair, so Dealers just replaced them...thats why I had to use the E30 TIS info.....)

10/94 here...I don't know the date of the second '95 Diff I have, but it too had no Loctite on those 8 bolts......

**scottycs** · 07-10-2006, 12:46 AM

replaced 2 broken diffs from this week, and now mine is starting to go (MPH gauge is out, wierd noises). Picked up a LSD off ebay for 170 shipped. These were from a 97 and 99. Guess I will loctite these SOBs.

**JETninja** · 07-10-2006, 12:53 AM

Theres a fan like pressed steel piece that rotates with the LSD between two fingers of the MPH Sensor. It's possible a bolt chunk could get caught in there and damage it. (saw small bits and mine was a little chewed up. Understand 5 bolts were out, plus 1 had a sheared head on mine!)

The Fan piece is a bitch to get back on, its a tight press fit and easy to damage! (sheet metal)

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