Lights Dim when Bumping My Subs Do I need A Capacitor?

[gbear14275]

Here:
http://www.bcae1.com/capacitr.htm
This is a link to a car audio education site. this link is to a capacitors section. There is more information here than you would eve use for recreational use. Read up and all your questions will be answered.

[00poop6x]

Yes, if you don't understand my explanation then go there. Just reviewed the site and it has much more than you need to know. I rarely use the information I know for installations of supplemental power in car audio.

The answer is yes, I know what I am talking about, I repair electronics. The capacitors I deal with are on a much smaller farad scale except for car audio installations. All I know is from hands on experience. But no one listens to me.... They don't have to. Happy listening and Halloween.

[PENER]

yep, it is very nice link, and it only confirms how important it is to have one installed (that's why its not maney waste if you have nice audio sys)

A capcitor is just like a battery, the difference in the way it is built. The caps you have for cars are huge parallell plate caps, your battery does the similar in having a medium between each charged side. Caps charge and dishcarge quick, batteries slower. If played loud both will still be able to discharge in turn leaving a low current and voltage for your amps. So the more caps batteries, the longer it takes to drain, depending if you're playing Lil Jon or classical. Even though your lights may not dim, your amps are playing less power due to the loss of voltage if your alternator can not supply enough current....like I said earlier and no one listens, it is the weakest link in the chain.

If you have a water tank(battery or capacitor) with water and you puncture the bottom to let out 1 gallon of water per minute(music/power) and at the same time pour in half a gallon per minute(alternator chargin), you're eventually going to drain the tank empty. Do yourself a favor and pour more water in(upgrade alternator).

I couldn't put it better myself. I agree with you 100% - BUT ONLY if we were talking about continuous power draw by, for example, amplifier driving set of component speakers up front (mid and upper range freqs). the story about water tank would be ideal.

However, we are concerned here about hard kicking bass notes, that last fraction of a second each. so the story about water tank needs to be modified significantly. the puncture in the bottom of a tank may grow to maybe 3 or 4 gal/min size, but only for a fraction of a second at time. the rest of the time puncture is sealed. the question then is, whether that half gallon a minute poured back into the tank will be enough to keep it full in the long run . if not, then there is no way out w/o souped up alternator.

[00poop6x]

The water example is the same example I give customers when they come back disappointed that their lights dim WITH a cap I sold them, even though I told them it might not help their lights; it is an example of a capacitor's function versus an alternator's function. A capacitor STORES, therefore it can drain as well. This example is about CONTINUOUS music(therefore the drain hole is not changing), say Lil Jon's Throw it Up....your capacitor will drain VERY quickly even though supplying solid bass up to a certain time. It just can NOT charge quick enough to supply instant bass after 4 minutes. It can only charge as much as the alternator is putting out.

A capacitor is more of a piggy back for solid bass and quick power draw. But NOT continuous power draw, that is where the alternator comes in. The alternator is what keeps that bass note going, not just that one second. And with a cap AND a HO alternator, it's game over. That's what I have and it's the most solid approach no questions asked. No one seems to listen on this forum and it really is a waste of my breath here.

A second battery would just be another piggy back for voltage supply, but if in the same chain of that stock alternator it's going to add to the weak links. Though it can help with the dimming lights due to the battery isolater determining when the second battery should be in use.

Simply put, a HO alternator can NOT hurt your system, it will only up it. Extra capacitors that drain and can not charge quick enough on certain songs DOES. Does this make any sense?

*EDIT* If you're taling about Avril Lavigne or Ashlee Simpson's lipsyncing, then continuous bass might not be a problem.

*EDIT2* Oh yeah also, a capacitor is not a waste of money, it is a necessity for quality bass produced, it can also help with signal noise as well. But the only catch is having something to back that cap up. The guy above me has the right idea also.

[FriedKalamari]

yep, it is very nice link, and it only confirms how important it is to have one installed (that's why its not maney waste if you have nice audio sys)




I couldn't put it better myself. I agree with you 100% - BUT ONLY if we were talking about continuous power draw by, for example, amplifier driving set of component speakers up front (mid and upper range freqs). the story about water tank would be ideal.

However, we are concerned here about hard kicking bass notes, that last fraction of a second each. so the story about water tank needs to be modified significantly. the puncture in the bottom of a tank may grow to maybe 3 or 4 gal/min size, but only for a fraction of a second at time. the rest of the time puncture is sealed. the question then is, whether that half gallon a minute poured back into the tank will be enough to keep it full in the long run . if not, then there is no way out w/o souped up alternator.

i dont know what kind of music u listen to, but plenty of music i listen to there bass notes that go on for lonnnng.

[Blazin95Red325i]

well the people that are advocating alternator upgrades, have you actually done one and it did for a fact stop the dimming?

I for one had an 80a I upgraded to a 140a alternator, and my amp is no monster, just a 5 channel alpine barely pushing 400rms and the lights dim like crazy if the bass is too high. What is my problem then? do I need to change the voltage regulator aswell? I checked the back of the alternaor and coild not find any voltage regulator in there.

o and my amp wire is phoenix gold 8awg wire rated for 500w.


thanks

[00poop6x]

well the people that are advocating alternator upgrades, have you actually done one and it did for a fact stop the dimming?

I for one had an 80a I upgraded to a 140a alternator, and my amp is no monster, just a 5 channel alpine barely pushing 400rms and the lights dim like crazy if the bass is too high. What is my problem then? do I need to change the voltage regulator aswell? I checked the back of the alternaor and coild not find any voltage regulator in there.

o and my amp wire is phoenix gold 8awg wire rated for 500w.


thanks

Yes, I have not had lights dimming in the first place even without the new alternator. Check your battery, might be old.

[FriedKalamari]

well the people that are advocating alternator upgrades, have you actually done one and it did for a fact stop the dimming?

I for one had an 80a I upgraded to a 140a alternator, and my amp is no monster, just a 5 channel alpine barely pushing 400rms and the lights dim like crazy if the bass is too high. What is my problem then? do I need to change the voltage regulator aswell? I checked the back of the alternaor and coild not find any voltage regulator in there.

o and my amp wire is phoenix gold 8awg wire rated for 500w.
thanks

check ur battery just like poop said, and since u are using a 140a alt. getting a cap might actually be helpful in that case...

[Blazin95Red325i]

it is in fact old, but wouldn't the available voltage be sufficient to prevent the dimming, even if the battery is old? I mean I do get 14.4 volts at the battery with a tester. Should I be getting more?


also, if I do end up getting a new battery will it only last half the time of its warranty? does have an amplifier void its warranty? An 60month interstate battery to be exact.
thanks

[00poop6x]

The reading may be good but the current is below normal. Having an amplifier will probably not void the warranty. What will void it is if you play your system without the car engine on for long periods of time. The battery you have or want to get is not that can drain and charge over and over again. Everytime it does that (about 3 times) it will die for sure. That's why gel cells can charge/discharge so many times and still carry a nice clean charge. If not gel cells, any type of high current capable dry cell wil do nicely. The keyword to look for is deep cycle.


Check out the specs of that interstate compared to this... http://www.stingerelectronics.com/we...ies_power2.asp

[Sephiroth619]

Where do you buy an aftermarket alternator? I've tried ebay searches and the like. I might be doing this as well, depending on my situation in the near future..

[00poop6x]

I got mine straight from Bosch, just because it's Bosch and German. Not sure if you can also....try calling Bosch.

We do sell Stinger's alternators. These alternators are geared towards heavy music listeners of the such. Hence the 130A - 270A range of alternator outputs. I believe my Bosch is ~120A average. If you're interested PM me.

http://www.stingerelectronics.com/we...lternators.asp

[LinearX]

I use a 1.5 farad capacitor and a Bosch 850cca battery. My amps are capable of drawing some serious current simultaneously, but this combination seems to be fairly effective. I can still notice the interior lights dim slightly during heavy draw from my subwoofer amplifier, but such is to be expected.

[jayhudson]

well the people that are advocating alternator upgrades, have you actually done one and it did for a fact stop the dimming?

I for one had an 80a I upgraded to a 140a alternator, and my amp is no monster, just a 5 channel alpine barely pushing 400rms and the lights dim like crazy if the bass is too high. What is my problem then? do I need to change the voltage regulator aswell? I checked the back of the alternaor and coild not find any voltage regulator in there.

o and my amp wire is phoenix gold 8awg wire rated for 500w.


thanks

Yes. When my alternator died, I upgraded to the 140a version. No more dimming. It's very possible that the reason my old alternator died was because of my audio system.

Your problem could also be install related. Or, you could have a poor system design which causes the amp to run hot which will create more of a pull on your charging system. I don't know what type/numbers of subs you're running, but I know the Alpine 5 ch amps don't have huge power to the sub channel.

Jay

[jayhudson]

Where do you buy an aftermarket alternator? I've tried ebay searches and the like. I might be doing this as well, depending on my situation in the near future..

You can get it from the dealer. Or, you can buy from one of our supporting vendors. Click on the Vendors button at the top of the page. There are several vendors, such as Zygmunt and PelicanParts, who sell alternators, etc.

Jay

[theDogger]

Well aftr reading this thread...I fell like I am watching the debates...no real clear cut answer. though there is a lot of good advise. So let me go out on a limb...

I believe that jayhudson

Your factory alternator is 80a. Upgrade to the 140a version. Problem solved. It solved my problem with dimming. If you decide to do this, try to find an alternative to going through BMW. They're spendy.

first touches the point of change the Alt. This would be the very first thing that I would do. My e34 had the 140 amp ALT but also was avaible with the 80 amp version. So to same time and money here is what I would do.....

140 Alt Bosch + parts
0/1 g from power to fuses
0/1 g from ground (replace the OEM wire to the body w/ 0/1 g also)
4 g from the fuses to the amps
8 g to subs from amps
1.2 Cap Stinger Expert or what every your flavor.

even though you are going a short distance from the battery and most will say that it is over kill (the size of the wire)...in my opinion it is not....it is just a lot less resistance.

also want to add this....

TheMuchacho-

Don't bash those of us who work in the business just because we work in the business. We just might know a little more than you do. There are plenty of guys, both in and out of the business, that don't know what they're talking about and/or blow smoke.

DAMN!.........for some reason everyone gets rubbed wrong by this cat! Damn!

My 2 Cents

theDogger

[Bremsen]

You can get it from the dealer. Or, you can buy from one of our supporting vendors. Click on the Vendors button at the top of the page. There are several vendors, such as Zygmunt and PelicanParts, who sell alternators, etc.

Jay

This post shows the p/n's etc that you'll need for the 140a alternator.

Just my $.02.......I think that messing with $100+ bandaids (ie Caps) when the alternator is $220 would be wasting $$. Get the alt 1st, then add the cap for that extra umph.

[00poop6x]

Adding a cap will not give you extra umph, it merely enables you to receive the umph you have been missing out on. Get both, either or is a waste of money, but a 1-2 punch is the best.


I will get the price soon Sep, busy in school this week right now.

[Sephiroth619]

Adding a cap will not give you extra umph, it merely enables you to receive the umph you have been missing out on. Get both, either or is a waste of money, but a 1-2 punch is the best.


I will get the price soon Sep, busy in school this week right now.

no problemo. I'm in the same shoes as you.

[CrayzeeM3]

Lots of good information on here. I have an Optima Red Top battery, IDmax 12" D2 V3 and an Arc Audio 2500CXL amp. They are being fed 4 gage wire for power. This thing dims my light even at close to zero gain. How much am i looking at upgrading an alternator. It sounds by far the cheapest and least effort involving fix?

[apr43]

YES YOU NEED A CAPACITOR. when the lights are dimming thats the number one clue that you need a capacitor. i hear for ever 1000 watts u need 1 farad. but yes a capacitor is deffenantly needed. especially if your runnning higher wattage. i wanted to give you a straight answer, since they seem to be hard to come by on this site. ha.

[apr43]

a description for a power acoutik capacitor: improves bass response; increases the peak power of your amp; reduces headlight dimming

[FriedKalamari]

YES YOU NEED A CAPACITOR. when the lights are dimming thats the number one clue that you need a capacitor. i hear for ever 1000 watts u need 1 farad. but yes a capacitor is deffenantly needed. especially if your runnning higher wattage. i wanted to give you a straight answer, since they seem to be hard to come by on this site. ha.

please dont speak.

[gbear14275]

OK, I'm not meaning to sound concieted but I'm pretty sure anyone here will tell you I know my stuff pretty dang well when it comes to the mechanics of audio systems.
A capacitor is designed to provide high amounts of current for short periods of time ie a bass hit*. So if your lights are dimming it means a portion of your electrical system is not able to provide current during those short dimming periods. NOW This is important to tell whether you need a cap more than an alternator.
IF YOU PLAY A STRONG SUSTAINED BASS NOTE AND THE LIGHTS DIM INITIALLY BUT THEN COME BACK TO FULL POWER BEFORE THE END OF THE NOTE (WOULD BE BEST TO HAVE A NOTE PLAY CONSTANT FOR 10 SEC))
[you might also notice a dip in rpms which come back up in sync with lights]
then you need a cap. Something in your electrical system is not able to provide for that initial short large draw (exactly what a cap is designed for).
IF YOU PLAY A STRONG SUSTAINED BASS NOTE AND THE LIGHTS DIM INITIALLY BUT DO NOT COME BACK TO FULL POWER BEFORE THE END OF THE NOTE you need a new alternator because it is unable to provide the sustained current draw. If you notice the first part after you replace the alternator then you then need a cap.

Alot of times as well the engine will have low power when idling (obviously) when a strong bass note comes on there is a sudden increased resistance in the alternator which is run by the engine. The engine will not be able to spontaneously react to the increased parasitic drag and you get the dip in your rpms. You can also observe this by turning your ac from off to full blast while your is idling. same thing sudden increase in resistance because your all of the sudden running a compressor. an alternator is kind of like an electrical compressor thats always on some percentage.

for those of you who want to know it will not be a problem EVER when you do this test turn on all the lights and ac as well. Anything that will draw power constantly (not wipers, or flashers, or anything that is cyclical), this way you will know if your close to the edge of your power supply. most of us will never need it but if you can do this you shouldnt have to worry.

Dang everytime i post even when i mean to post short it comes out a novel.

One thing we havent talked about is capacitor sizing. Capacitors have different sizes just like soft drink cups at the gas station. this is gonna be another "interesting" analogy but probably the most accurate one, Imagine having a pop(if you dont like pop insert soda or whatever) machine that is always on. Youve got a guy on the ground catching the stream of pop in his mouth. (or beer )The guy is your sound system. Depending on how big your system is affects how much pop he drinks. when you music is playing softly hes only taking small swallows and his mouth always has some pop in it. if its overflowing his mouth thats good and we dont care about the overflow. if the music plays loud he starts and the bass hits he gulps. If your guy(system) is small the pop machine may be able to still always keep some pop in his mouth even when he gulps. If your guy(system) is big then when your guy gulps he drains all the pop out of his mouth and he chokes (i know that doesnt make exact sense but just stick with me). this is bad. SO what you do is add a cap. this is going to be a guy with a cup that catches the pop first. he tips it so whatever goes over the edge goes into the system dudes mouth. NOW what you have is the pop machine filling up the cup and then the overflow going to you electircal system. SO big system dude gulps and what cap does is pour a chunk of the pop in the cup into his mouth. So in our situation cap pours a chunk** when system dude gulps to keep his mouth full then system dude is sipping again and cap turns his cup back up slowly so that pop keeps overflowing and feeding system dude but at the same time the cup gets back what it poured out.
WHEW, hacker too much typing...
so you can see how cap (the guy with the cup) keeps his friend from not choking (lights dimming). thats the cap way to fix the situation, the other way is to bring in a bigger pop machine (replace the alternator) so its a bigger stream and the bigger guy wont need cap (the guy with the cup), pop machines only get so big and fat albert gulps really big gulps so your gonna need a cup eventually. But I mentioned sizing, so were gonna break it down a little more. if cap tries to use a coffee cup(small cap) for his friend it probably wont work cause he'll run out when his friend gulps, unless he needed only a little help. so why doesnt cap just hold a biggulp? because that big guld costs alot more. what he wants to do is get the smallest cup that will do the job. realize if the guy gulps more often than cap can fill his cup system dude is eventually going to choke. (and he gulps as often as the bass hits***)
so here are the cup sizes: (so if you have dimming AND your)
<500W rms = cofee cup = .5 farads ~60$
<1000W rms = normal = 1 farad ~ 110$
<1500W rms = large = 1.5 farads ~ 150$
<2000W rms = big gulp = 2 farads ~ 180$
<2500W rms = the speacialty travel super mug = 2.5 or 3 farads = 250-300$
a constant beer bonger = 5 gallon bucket = separate battery system ~ 500+$


We (for our cars generally) have either the small (80 amps) or big (140? amps) pop machines. If the small machine cant handle as much beer bonging as your dude does (number of loud sustained notes in music) youll have to upgrade to the big machine to keep him from choking and sputtering (about 250$).

Okay ive been typing for way to long and have provided the weirdest , but most accurate analogy, as of yet. this should explain everything as far as analogies to whats happening to cause your lights to dim.****

my brains dead and i doubt i missed anything except rare cases.*****

But if for some reason someone thinks i messed up and wants to talk to me through other methods first******. I'm going to ask for this to possibly be parked cause i think this is good info for alot of people on a common confusion. Thanx for reading the novel everyone.

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Disclaimer on pricing: I am not a seller or avid shopper so I claim only very minimal accuracy when it comes to prices. This info is long lasting, prices are not and if you want to quibble about prices......sigh.....I would like to tell you to just shut up but I will probably just tell you your right because im sure youll bring a coupon from some store or some other short term flaky proof.
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*(hit not note because a note may last 3 or more seconds and a cap wont help you there unless it is very big and fully charged (not realistic))
** okay liquid usually isnt referred to as a chunk but a large amount of soda all once, maybe a splash...
***if you have a constant loud note then your guy thinks hes beer bombing/bonging and hes got his throat open, sooooo if the stream coming from the machine isnt bigger then the guys throat your going to need a new machine cause that cup will only last a few seconds, and this guys as much as a champ as your note is long.
**** if you want the technical mumbo jumbo PM me.
*****(unusually small ground, undersized wire, maybe a few more, and these would show other signs => amp frying within a month, wire melting... so those would work themselves out lol. a case where ignorance might be painful . finally!!!, with apologies to those good people that were led astray and it wasnt your fault ).
******(PM or IM me! I listen and will admit when im wrong if you know your stuff!!!!! If your valid ill apologize, give credit to you and tell everyone I messed up and your smarter than me)

[apr43]

fuck you shit head. you cocky ass piece of shit. sorry i told this man straight up without all the sophisticated bullshit. look at you, u left this man like 10 messages, i left 2. people want an answer not a fucking essay on it. thanks, so you please dont speak.