Any advice for NJMP Lightning?

[ELVA164]

Hi all,

So I see a lot of people seem to frequent NJMP, and the Lightning circuit in particular. I'll be heading there this coming weekend with the Cortina, and I wanted to know if you guys would be willing to provide any advice for me? I think my line is okay, but I basically just picked what I thought was best. I'm least confident in my line over the hill and the "lightbulb," but let me know if anything else could use some polish! As a reference, my best lap last year was right around 1:20.

Thanks!

-Mike

[Emre]

In corner 2 it looks like you're turning in a bit more than you need to (getting too close to the curbing on the right). If you keep away from the curbing a bit, the car will line up closer to the edge of the track (on the left) at exit, which will give you lots more room at the entry to the esses.

For the hill, you need to let the car "out" more exiting the esses. Take a wider arc coming out of the right-hander so (again) you end up closer to the track edge on the left. The loading/rotation will help you keep your wheel straighter and pick up the throttle sooner/harder as you shoot diagonally up over the hill.

Finally, you can enter the carousel a little hotter if you're closer to the center of the track on corner entry. The banking will keep you under control. You seem to be entering too far to the right and hugging the inside of the track. But looks can be deceiving with in-car videos.

[ELVA164]

In corner 2 it looks like you're turning in a bit more than you need to (getting too close to the curbing on the right). If you keep away from the curbing a bit, the car will line up closer to the edge of the track (on the left) at exit, which will give you lots more room at the entry to the esses.

For the hill, you need to let the car "out" more exiting the esses. Take a wider arc coming out of the right-hander so (again) you end up closer to the track edge on the left. The loading/rotation will help you keep your wheel straighter and pick up the throttle sooner/harder as you shoot diagonally up over the hill.

Finally, you can enter the carousel a little hotter if you're closer to the center of the track on corner entry. The banking will keep you under control. You seem to be entering too far to the right and hugging the inside of the track. But looks can be deceiving with in-car videos.

Okay, so I should "apex" farther from the curb for 2, get closer to the left for 3, and apex later for 3? If I stay left out of three, won't that pinch the left-hander (4) and mess up my run towards the hill? Or are you saying to stay farther left down the short chute before the hill? The car does struggle to turn in at the base of the hill (turn 5), so a wider arc may help that.

I'll admit I was totally lost in the carousel. I think I went low in an effort to reduce left rear tire wear, but I may have increased wear at the left front due to "steering" around the corner. Should it be a single, late apex instead of the double apex I used? That would probably give me a better run onto the front straight...

Edit: Is the line the red Elva takes at the 13:10 mark in the video close to what you're suggesting for turn 5?

[dmw16]

On turn 5 (?) going over the hill I think you can use more of the track before turn-in. I like aim for the billboards and then ease myself parallel to the curbing and then turn in. In the laps I watched you looked to have at least half a car width.

In the lightbulb line up about 2/3 of the way up the track (to the left) and get your braking down in the straight line before starting your turn and staying about 2/3 of the way up the lightbulb and then when you can see your apex start pulling the car down into the apex and be on the throttle by the time you reach your apex and heading out to track-out. It looks like you're hugging the inside all the way around and that's not a good line from what I've been taught and shown.

Another approach is to let your speed carry you even further out and then use your turning to scrub speed off and then that lower speed will naturally reduce your radius, but I'd start with the 2/3 and then start pulling into the apex later.

I'm by no means an expert driver. I've managed about a 1:18 in an E46 M3 around Lightning which is about 1.5-2s off a racer in my car. So I have a lot to learn, but based on what I'm seeing that's my input.

Lastly, it seems like you're really working the wheel a lot mid-turn. Of course I don't know what the car is doing so you might be just correcting what the car is doing.

[ELVA164]

On turn 5 (?) going over the hill I think you can use more of the track before turn-in. I like aim for the billboards and then ease myself parallel to the curbing and then turn in. In the laps I watched you looked to have at least half a car width.

In the lightbulb line up about 2/3 of the way up the track (to the left) and get your braking down in the straight line before starting your turn and staying about 2/3 of the way up the lightbulb and then when you can see your apex start pulling the car down into the apex and be on the throttle by the time you reach your apex and heading out to track-out. It looks like you're hugging the inside all the way around and that's not a good line from what I've been taught and shown.

Another approach is to let your speed carry you even further out and then use your turning to scrub speed off and then that lower speed will naturally reduce your radius, but I'd start with the 2/3 and then start pulling into the apex later.

I'm by no means an expert driver. I've managed about a 1:18 in an E46 M3 around Lightning which is about 1.5-2s off a racer in my car. So I have a lot to learn, but based on what I'm seeing that's my input.

Lastly, it seems like you're really working the wheel a lot mid-turn. Of course I don't know what the car is doing so you might be just correcting what the car is doing.

Thanks! If you can take a minute to check at 13:10 in the video I posted, do you think the red car is taking the line over the hill I should try? That's what it sounds like to me. I'll be taking the input about the lightbulb to heart as well, as I wasn't pleased with my line last year (for good reason it seems). Hopefully I can break 1:20 this year, but we'll see.

As far as the car moving around, that's kind of the nature of the beast so to speak. It's from 1965 and features such technology as rear drum brakes, a live rear axle, a steering box, and bias-ply tires. As a kicker, I've actually never driven the car on new tires; I take the tires our customers discard and use those. That would probably help some as well, haha. That obviously doesn't mean I'm perfect at it, but I believe that it all contributes to a more "active" driving experience one way or the other.

[dmw16]

Thanks! If you can take a minute to check at 13:10 in the video I posted, do you think the red car is taking the line over the hill I should try? That's what it sounds like to me. I'll be taking the input about the lightbulb to heart as well, as I wasn't pleased with my line last year (for good reason it seems). Hopefully I can break 1:20 this year, but we'll see.

As far as the car moving around, that's kind of the nature of the beast so to speak. It's from 1965 and features such technology as rear drum brakes, a live rear axle, a steering box, and bias-ply tires. As a kicker, I've actually never driven the car on new tires; I take the tires our customers discard and use those. That would probably help some as well, haha. That obviously doesn't mean I'm perfect at it, but I believe that it all contributes to a more "active" driving experience one way or the other.

The line the red car takes at 13:10 is what I mean exactly. Give it a try next time. It allows you to be pointed a lot straighter going over the hill which is nice for obvious reasons

[taylor@bimmertools]

After watching your video I think it's safe to say you know what you're doing. I race a SE36 which is definitely a momentum car as well. My best this year was a 17.3 Our lines are basically identical from 1-lightbulb except I run out wider for the exit of 5. I like that line through 2-3; I'm assuming no braking just maintenance throttle. That entry for 5 is good cause it uses the uphill to scrub speed instead of braking in a straight line then turning in like a more traditional "school" line. It is early but it's for a good reason. Lightbulb is totally subjective. I find myself middle of the road at entry then wind it in but I've done it many ways with similar results. Don't remember if I saw a data logger or not but that is a powerful tool if you aren't using one. Those turtles on the right at the entry to 7 suck if you hit them don't they? Think I saw you do it once. Quick study

[NotUrAvgM]

I tackle 2-3 the same way you do but I think I turn in a little later for 2. Entry to 5 I am closer to the curbing, and I carry the exit wider. Lightbulb I like mid-track... more fun than down the bottom. No idea if it is faster ;-).

[ELVA164]

After watching your video I think it's safe to say you know what you're doing. I race a SE36 which is definitely a momentum car as well. My best this year was a 17.3 Our lines are basically identical from 1-lightbulb except I run out wider for the exit of 5. I like that line through 2-3; I'm assuming no braking just maintenance throttle. That entry for 5 is good cause it uses the uphill to scrub speed instead of braking in a straight line then turning in like a more traditional "school" line. It is early but it's for a good reason. Lightbulb is totally subjective. I find myself middle of the road at entry then wind it in but I've done it many ways with similar results. Don't remember if I saw a data logger or not but that is a powerful tool if you aren't using one. Those turtles on the right at the entry to 7 suck if you hit them don't they? Think I saw you do it once. Quick study

Thanks, that's very kind of you! Through 2 and 3 I started with some light left-foot braking but realized the inside front was locking a little from lifting it () so I changed to just lifting through there and it worked great! Do you feel that a slightly wider entry to 3 would help at all? Possible advantage would be a better run up the right side of the track and into the left-hander, disadvantage could be that the extra driving distance doesn't pay off in speed.

Interesting point about turn 5; I'm very curious now which would work better with the vintage car, or if the older technology/tires favor one line over the other. I'll have to try each a few laps in a row and compare (as best I can with a stopwatch). It sounds like no matter what my entry to the lightbulb is a little shallow, so I'll definitely move that up a bit. No data logging stuff, and it'll probably be a while before I have the budget for it. I can only afford to race at all because I know the mechanic! And yes, those turtles at turn 7 were pretty harsh!

Man, I'm excited to get there and try this stuff out! I wish I got more than one chance a year to try this track out.

I tackle 2-3 the same way you do but I think I turn in a little later for 2. Entry to 5 I am closer to the curbing, and I carry the exit wider. Lightbulb I like mid-track... more fun than down the bottom. No idea if it is faster ;-).

So a later turn-in for 2 means you stay more towards the center of the track there and kinda shoot up the right side to 3? Or basically the same but only a tiny bit later? And yeah, that lightbulb seems like no-man's-land!

[NotUrAvgM]

So a later turn-in for 2 means you stay more towards the center of the track there and kinda shoot up the right side to 3? Or basically the same but only a tiny bit later? And yeah, that lightbulb seems like no-man's-land!

Nope, just a tad later. I still have the car pretty wide for a "steeper" turn in to 3. If I stuck to the right/middle more my car would just push on turn - in to 3 most likely. For me it's usually a quick brake dab to get the nose into 3 depending how well I hit 2.

[ELVA164]

Nope, just a tad later. I still have the car pretty wide for a "steeper" turn in to 3. If I stuck to the right/middle more my car would just push on turn - in to 3 most likely. For me it's usually a quick brake dab to get the nose into 3 depending how well I hit 2.

Okay, sounds close to what I do then, though my brakes need more than a dab to do anything.

[taylor@bimmertools]

Are you guys ready to geek the f*ck out? I am! This will inspire you to spend the $399 on an AiM Solo. Data is the best way to analyze and improve yourself as a driver. Data don't lie. You can spend thousands of dollars on go fast bits when you could spend far less on yourself and be faster without the extra goodies. This theory is for my car which is a low power, crappy suspension SE36 race car. My experience with the wide entry into 3 is if I'm out there it's because I am going to fast and now I'm going to blow the corner thus screwing myself for turn 4. If my speed is such that I can hold a nice arc thru 2-3 I know I will have slowed the car enough to tighten up the radius for 3 and give myself a good run thru 4. In the attached data you will see the 2 different approaches. I am not the fastest guy out there (right now anyway) but I'm not the slowest either. The comparison is between me and a fellow racer who is quite quick as well but wasn't familiar with my car. His line might be better for a more powerful car, which is what he is used to, but in a low power car like mine it isn't.

The black vertical line thru the graphs corresponds with the x on the map. It is the entry to turn 3. On the map you can also see the slight variation in our lines. My line is blue and his is red.
The very top graph is our lateral g's (left/right). You can see he is generating less g's as he is going out wider for the entry to 3.
The second graph is our longitudinal g's (brake/accel). You can see he has to hit the brake pretty sharply to get the car to start its turn in for 3. I do my braking between 3-4.
The third graph is our speed. You can see my technique allows me to carry nearly 10mph more through the corner. That's a lot!!!
The fourth graph compares our laps and shows where we gain/lose time against each other. The flat line at the bottom is my lap (reference lap). Whenever the red line goes uphill he is losing time in reference to me. When it is flat there is neither a gain nor a loss. When the slope is down hill he is gaining time on me. You can see I have a lot of work to do on turn 7.

This is the beauty of data. You can always get something out of it. He knows where he can improve and so do I. Without this data neither one of us would get any quicker. I found him nearly 2 seconds and he found me almost 3/4 of a second and both improvements are in one corner! Technology!

lightning map.jpg lightning graphs.jpg

[ELVA164]

Weekend starts tomorrow with a warmup and two qualifying sessions! I'll see what I can find out!

[ELVA164]

Bad news guys....

I did my first warmup session this morning to bed in new brakes. The shift knob broke off, along with part of the (hastily previously repaired) lever. I had enough lever to keep going, so no big deal.

Went out for qualifying, did 6 or 7 laps, got a 1:20.363. It felt good, but there was definitely more left. I pitted early due to a lot of traffic and not wanting to wear the car out.

Started the qualifying race, passed a Can-Am car ON THE OUTSIDE going into turn 2, then my diff exploded on lap 3. Game over. Won't be breaking 1:20 this year it seems

[taylor@bimmertools]

Bummer. Such is the nature of the beast.

[ELVA164]

I didn't get much driving video unfortuntately, but I did get some entertaining clips.

Here's my first session of the weekend, made a bit more interesting when my shift knob and part of the lever fell off:

And this is my qualifying session a few hours later, sans shift knob/lever:

[jrkoupe]

michaEL


SORRY TO HEAR..

u r not the first this has happened to..lol]\

wasnt there a famous story of this happening to a big time racer...f1..?..his hand was a bloody mess at the end....




Just watched the second vid....was that bob ball in the square tail o2 you passed?........he can hustle...good for you big guy.....I think he runs an m42/44 in that car...

[ELVA164]

I'm sure it's happened a number of times, but the one you're probably thinking of is James Hunt at the '76 Japanese Grand Prix. It was in the movie Rush, too. I don't think I was that close to the ragged edge, haha.

That is Bob in that car I believe. Real friendly guy. I'm pretty sure that one doesn't have an M42/44 since it wouldn't be vintage legal, but he was still very quick. He and I were having a great dice for the few laps before my diff gave it up which made the whole thing even more depressing. Next year!