Possible Bad Water Pump?

[ninetyseven1]

Yep, I know its a reverse thread

[RocketSurgeon]

Forgive my ignorance....why would you do this?

The fan clutch can fail as it gets older. If it seizes, it will overspin the fan until it flies apart. If that happens, it will tear holes in the hood, radiator, hoses, belts, etc. It can do over $1500 in damage in an instant. The auxiliary fan has plenty of cooling potential since the fan only really matters when you aren't moving. Many people remove it to prevent it from damaging the car, and to get rid of the vacuum cleaner noise it makes. Some dyno results even show a gain of a few horsepower

[Jopecasa]

The fan clutch can fail as it gets older. If it seizes, it will overspin the fan until it flies apart. If that happens, it will tear holes in the hood, radiator, hoses, belts, etc. It can do over $1500 in damage in an instant. The auxiliary fan has plenty of cooling potential since the fan only really matters when you aren't moving. Many people remove it to prevent it from damaging the car, and to get rid of the vacuum cleaner noise it makes. Some dyno results even show a gain of a few horsepower

Cool...thanks for the info.

[ninetyseven1]

The fan clutch can fail as it gets older. If it seizes, it will overspin the fan until it flies apart. If that happens, it will tear holes in the hood, radiator, hoses, belts, etc. It can do over $1500 in damage in an instant. The auxiliary fan has plenty of cooling potential since the fan only really matters when you aren't moving. Many people remove it to prevent it from damaging the car, and to get rid of the vacuum cleaner noise it makes. Some dyno results even show a gain of a few horsepower

NO, you should really put a radiator fan on your motor. These cars run hot as it is. The aux fan will not cool your motor like your stock fan will. I went with a Ford Taurus electric fan. Cost me $25 from the junkyard. It is a powerful electric fan that outflows just about anything aftermarket. It is a puller fan just like the stock Fan clutch and all you need is a probe type fan controller from Hayden, some 8 gauge wire, a 60 amp relay and your all set. My car cools and it functions exactly the same as the stock Fan clutch did but I dont have to worry about the fan exploding like the factory fan.

[Mannyf540]

NO, you should really put a radiator fan on your motor. These cars run hot as it is. The aux fan will not cool your motor like your stock fan will. I went with a Ford Taurus electric fan. Cost me $25 from the junkyard. It is a powerful electric fan that outflows just about anything aftermarket. It is a puller fan just like the stock Fan clutch and all you need is a probe type fan controller from Hayden, some 8 gauge wire, a 60 amp relay and your all set. My car cools and it functions exactly the same as the stock Fan clutch did but I dont have to worry about the fan exploding like the factory fan.

And where so you put the expansion tank ?

[ninetyseven1]

And where so you put the expansion tank ?

You mount it to the taurus fan shroud or just let it hang stuffed between the MAF and the fan shroud.

[rf900rkw]

NO, you should really put a radiator fan on your motor. These cars run hot as it is. The aux fan will not cool your motor like your stock fan will.

Uh, MANY many of us are running ran delete.... and we're not the ones posting overheating threads.

[ninetyseven1]

Uh, MANY many of us are running ran delete.... and we're not the ones posting overheating threads.

The aux fan is not meant to cool your engine down, it's meant to cool the a/c condensor. I would not want my coolant temps to exceed 105 c . What car do you know of comes with no radiator fan? Why would you want to run a $55k dollar car like this? Without a radiator fan the temps would continue to climb on its own when idling

[rf900rkw]

It would appear that you do not have a very good grasp on how the cooling system works. The condenser and radiator are not separate disconnected parts. All air that flows through the condenser goes through the radiator. The two are shrouded and sealed together. Or at least, they were from the factory... who knows what these backyard engineers and their crap fan installations have done to the flow dynamics. It does not matter if the single fan is a puller or a pusher, the air goes through both components unless the ducting and sealing has been disturbed.

It also appears you don't read the cooling system threads that are quite common here. So some highlights.

The key to cooling is even air flow across the entire matrix. This means proper ducting and shrouding with no leakage. A proper 600cfm fan installation will out perform a 30000cfm fan dangled near the core on plumbers strapping.

The fan cools the radiator. It has nothing to do with the engine, only the radiator temp. The whole time sitting still in traffic with the fan cycling on and off, the engine temp should never vary. Not a degree. In practice, it does move around a degree or so. This is not due to the fan, it is due to the thermostat being reactive. Think of it this way. The radiator is a reservoir of cooled coolant. As long as the radiator can take the small amounts (we're at idle/low load, after all) of heated coolant rejected by the engine and turn it back into cooler coolant, the system will be stable. The fan's only job is to provide the airflow for the radiator to perform it's task. When needed.


BMW themselves started using a single electric fan with the E60's and E46s. The M54 generation was the last to have a mechanical fan. So I'll turn it around for you. Why would you want to rig some Ford fan into a $55K car when you don't even understand the basic principles at work?

[ninetyseven1]

I know exactly how this system works.LOL and I know that an aux fan is not meant to cool your engine. The original Fan clutch type fan on the motor is a "puller", meaning it pulls hot air out of the radiator. The aux fan only provides the A/c condensor with cooler air. The aux fan is not strong enough to cool the radiator like a normal radiator fan would. If you looked around you would find that the Ford Taurus fan is one of the most popular fan conversions for any hot rod. It pulls more air than just about ANY aftermarket fan, in high speed mode the Taurus fan can lift itself off of the ground! So you ask why would I use such a great fan on my $55k car? because I dont want the stock fan to explode and cause thousands of dollars in damage and I dont want to pay even a $100 for a good fan. If you can find a fan cheaper, why wouldn't you buy it? Try running with out a radiator fan and you will see your temps continue to rise from 100 to 105 to 110 to 115 and so on. IT won't rise much once the car is moving cause it is getting cold air through the radiator though, but when the car is sitting is when I would be concerned. The way this cooling system on this car works is that the MAP thermostat opens partly at lower temps and opens fully at 105,but most of us only see temps that high very occasionally. AT 110C the thermostat is always forced open by the DME.

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FYI, when I tried running just an aux fan, the cars temp rose to a very high 110 C and the aux fan went on high, the temp stayed stable at 110 and slowly climbed from there. I would not recommend this.

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Your car will perform better running cooler, that is a fact.

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BTW , the stock Fan clutch performs pretty well, although it eats up a little bit of HP. It performs ALMOST as well as my Taurus fan pulling out heat. I can say that after a spirited drive, I can pop my hood now and not have even half the radiant heat I had under the hood with the stock fan. IT used to be like an oven in there.LOL Only thing is now, you cant stand beside my car because there is so much heat being pulled out by the Taurus fan that it all goes under the car and out the sides. IT feels like your standing next to a bonfire.

[Spirit Force]

I know exactly how this system works.LOL and I know that an aux fan is not meant to cool your engine. The original Fan clutch type fan on the motor is a "puller", meaning it pulls hot air out of the radiator. The aux fan only provides the A/c condensor with cooler air. The aux fan is not strong enough to cool the radiator like a normal radiator fan would. If you looked around you would find that the Ford Taurus fan is one of the most popular fan conversions for any hot rod. It pulls more air than just about ANY aftermarket fan, in high speed mode the Taurus fan can lift itself off of the ground! So you ask why would I use such a great fan on my $55k car? because I dont want the stock fan to explode and cause thousands of dollars in damage and I dont want to pay even a $100 for a good fan. If you can find a fan cheaper, why wouldn't you buy it? Try running with out a radiator fan and you will see your temps continue to rise from 100 to 105 to 110 to 115 and so on. IT won't rise much once the car is moving cause it is getting cold air through the radiator though, but when the car is sitting is when I would be concerned. The way this cooling system on this car works is that the MAP thermostat opens partly at lower temps and opens fully at 105,but most of us only see temps that high very occasionally. AT 110C the thermostat is always forced open by the DME.

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FYI, when I tried running just an aux fan, the cars temp rose to a very high 110 C and the aux fan went on high, the temp stayed stable at 110 and slowly climbed from there. I would not recommend this.

- - - Updated - - -

Your car will perform better running cooler, that is a fact.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW , the stock Fan clutch performs pretty well, although it eats up a little bit of HP. It performs ALMOST as well as my Taurus fan pulling out heat. I can say that after a spirited drive, I can pop my hood now and not have even half the radiant heat I had under the hood with the stock fan. IT used to be like an oven in there.LOL Only thing is now, you cant stand beside my car because there is so much heat being pulled out by the Taurus fan that it all goes under the car and out the sides. IT feels like your standing next to a bonfire.

rf900rkw has more knowledge about BMW than 99% of the members on this board. And yes quite a few are running fan clutch delete without an issue. Something is clearly wrong with your cars cooling system.

Do eloborate on the "Your car will perform better running cooler, that is a fact". If that was the case BMW wouldn't have designed a 105C thermostat for the M62tu. BMW designed the hotter thermostat to increase the fuel economy & decrease the emissions.

[ninetyseven1]

rf900rkw has more knowledge about BMW than 99% of the members on this board. And yes quite a few are running fan clutch delete without an issue. Something is clearly wrong with your cars cooling system.

Do eloborate on the "Your car will perform better running cooler, that is a fact". If that was the case BMW wouldn't have designed a 105C thermostat for the M62tu. BMW designed the hotter thermostat to increase the fuel economy & decrease the emissions.

Heat is the enemy of HP. I don't think I would trust that aux fan to cool my car.

[Aryana]

Aux fan works great when you delete the mechanical fan. I am a NR TEST 07 fanatic when I drive and my KTMP has never gone above 99C even in stop & go traffic.

[rf900rkw]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-Clutch-Delete


For your reading pleasure. Scores of pages of questions, answers, theory, and testimonials. Many of us run without a mechanical fan, as do many many more in other subforums.


You obviously have something else wrong with your car, something not fan related. Here's the deal. If you have something wrong that kills the coolant flow, be it a failed waterpump, bad t-stat, restriction, there will not be any hot coolant in the radiator to be cooled by the fan. When this happens, the mechanical fan will luft along drawing a bit of cool air. The electric fan will not turn on.

Thermostat. Water pump. And... isn't this the car you said the aux fan was broken and the car ... errr.... disappeared fanless for a few days? Though not a normal V8 problem, add blown head gaskets to the list,

[Dave Sal]

Aux fan works great when you delete the mechanical fan. I am a NR TEST 07 fanatic when I drive and my KTMP has never gone above 99C even in stop & go traffic.

I'm a bit paranoid about overheating issues and truly despise the buffered temp gauge. I want to see real time temperature fluctuations, especially when they are going up. I've read some posts about accessing the OBC to show coolant temps but it always seems to require that the key be in position 1. How does one access this info on a 2000 528 while actually driving?

[djb2]

The fan cools the radiator. It has nothing to do with the engine, only the radiator temp.
The fan's only job is to provide the airflow for the radiator to perform it's task. When needed.

I disagree with these statements.

The fans not only cool the radiator, but also provide cooling air over the whole engine compartment. Without some airflow other parts are going to eventually overheat. The heat shields over the exhaust system only work if there is some airflow behind them.

When you are stopped at a three minute light, or don't move for 10 minutes in a traffic jam, what keeps the ABS unit from overheating? The modest airflow from the engine-driven fan. Even if the coolant isn't overheating, the always-spinning fan will keep pockets of extremely hot air from forming over the exhaust, and cool parts that don't get direct coolant flow.

[ninetyseven1]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-Clutch-Delete


For your reading pleasure. Scores of pages of questions, answers, theory, and testimonials. Many of us run without a mechanical fan, as do many many more in other subforums.


You obviously have something else wrong with your car, something not fan related. Here's the deal. If you have something wrong that kills the coolant flow, be it a failed waterpump, bad t-stat, restriction, there will not be any hot coolant in the radiator to be cooled by the fan. When this happens, the mechanical fan will luft along drawing a bit of cool air. The electric fan will not turn on.

Thermostat. Water pump. And... isn't this the car you said the aux fan was broken and the car ... errr.... disappeared fanless for a few days? Though not a normal V8 problem, add blown head gaskets to the list,

Well, here's the deal with mine. I have an electric fan that has a fan controller with a probe in the radiator . Fan initially set to come on when the probe sees coolant of 104C going through the radiator. The probe is installed in the radiator near the upper hose. OK, so my aux fan does work but only comes on when I turn on the a/c and it will also come on when the car ever hits 110C. Those are the only ways the aux fan even comes on. When I turn on the a/c, I think the aux fan comes on ,on the low speed. So, I can say that most of the time my electric fan is on, probably 99% of the time for some reason. I attribute this to the thermostat being partially open at all times like it supposed to be? My car never goes over 105C while idling and it usually stays at 103 when on the highway. Now , if I am idling and the fan is on, and I turn on the a/c, then the temps can sometimes drop all the way down to 80-83C. My waterpump is only a year old, there are no visible coolant leaks in the car ,and the expansion tank cap is brand new. Now , I have tried going fan-less and my temps just rise and rise to a dangerous level , they can climb up past 113C. I had to shut the car off cause I didn't want to find out how high it would go! LOL. Temps seem normal with the Electric fan and they don't change much if I use the stock Fan clutch either. Like I said, I can't rely just on my aux fan cause it wont come on until 110C. So, if there is an issue with my cooling system it doesn't seem apparent. What are your thoughts?

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My new electric fan is on 99% of the time while driving or idling. Maybe the MAP thermostat stays partially open? but I set the fan controller to come on at 104C? If i let my car cool for a while and drive it, then the fan kicks on at 104C like I commanded it to,but stays on 99% of the time after that. Car still never gets over 105C. Maybe my thermostat is stuck open or sticking?

[Cyrix2k]

NO, you should really put a radiator fan on your motor. These cars run hot as it is. The aux fan will not cool your motor like your stock fan will. I went with a Ford Taurus electric fan. Cost me $25 from the junkyard. It is a powerful electric fan that outflows just about anything aftermarket. It is a puller fan just like the stock Fan clutch and all you need is a probe type fan controller from Hayden, some 8 gauge wire, a 60 amp relay and your all set. My car cools and it functions exactly the same as the stock Fan clutch did but I dont have to worry about the fan exploding like the factory fan.

+1

rf900rkw has more knowledge about BMW than 99% of the members on this board. And yes quite a few are running fan clutch delete without an issue. Something is clearly wrong with your cars cooling system.

Do eloborate on the "Your car will perform better running cooler, that is a fact". If that was the case BMW wouldn't have designed a 105C thermostat for the M62tu. BMW designed the hotter thermostat to increase the fuel economy & decrease the emissions.

Uh, you didn't even talk about performance. Higher temps help with fuel efficiency & emissions, not performance. And you are wrong about the thermostat being a 105c t-stat - it's not, it's a mapped thermostat that is adjustable. Guess what happens when performance is demanded? Here's a shocker, BMW actually has the DME command the t-stat to drop to a lower temp!

I disagree with these statements.

The fans not only cool the radiator, but also provide cooling air over the whole engine compartment. Without some airflow other parts are going to eventually overheat. The heat shields over the exhaust system only work if there is some airflow behind them.

When you are stopped at a three minute light, or don't move for 10 minutes in a traffic jam, what keeps the ABS unit from overheating? The modest airflow from the engine-driven fan. Even if the coolant isn't overheating, the always-spinning fan will keep pockets of extremely hot air from forming over the exhaust, and cool parts that don't get direct coolant flow.

This. It's amazing how quickly underhood temps rise without the clutch fan. I've broken all kinds of stuff on my other car due to high underhood temps (electric fan only because there's no room for a clutch fan) and my logs show incredible temperature spikes under the hood once airflow stops.

Well, here's the deal with mine. I have an electric fan that has a fan controller with a probe in the radiator . Fan initially set to come on when the probe sees coolant of 104C going through the radiator. The probe is installed in the radiator near the upper hose. OK, so my aux fan does work but only comes on when I turn on the a/c and it will also come on when the car ever hits 110C. Those are the only ways the aux fan even comes on. When I turn on the a/c, I think the aux fan comes on ,on the low speed. So, I can say that most of the time my electric fan is on, probably 99% of the time for some reason. I attribute this to the thermostat being partially open at all times like it supposed to be? My car never goes over 105C while idling and it usually stays at 103 when on the highway. Now , if I am idling and the fan is on, and I turn on the a/c, then the temps can sometimes drop all the way down to 80-83C. My waterpump is only a year old, there are no visible coolant leaks in the car ,and the expansion tank cap is brand new. Now , I have tried going fan-less and my temps just rise and rise to a dangerous level , they can climb up past 113C. I had to shut the car off cause I didn't want to find out how high it would go! LOL. Temps seem normal with the Electric fan and they don't change much if I use the stock Fan clutch either. Like I said, I can't rely just on my aux fan cause it wont come on until 110C. So, if there is an issue with my cooling system it doesn't seem apparent. What are your thoughts?

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My new electric fan is on 99% of the time while driving or idling. Maybe the MAP thermostat stays partially open? but I set the fan controller to come on at 104C? If i let my car cool for a while and drive it, then the fan kicks on at 104C like I commanded it to,but stays on 99% of the time after that. Car still never gets over 105C. Maybe my thermostat is stuck open or sticking?

I've had ONE cooling system failure and it's when I was driving around without the clutch fan. A marginal heater hose blew due to the increased pressure in the system; I also observed the temperatures rising above the "normal" temps with the clutch fan deleted. I too was not running the A/C. And no matter what, I would not EVER advocate running only the aux/a/c fan. A fan failure could easily result in catastrophic engine failure.

[Spirit Force]

+1

Uh, you didn't even talk about performance. Higher temps help with fuel efficiency & emissions, not performance. And you are wrong about the thermostat being a 105c t-stat - it's not, it's a mapped thermostat that is adjustable. Guess what happens when performance is demanded? Here's a shocker, BMW actually has the DME command the t-stat to drop to a lower temp!

Since lower temps increase performance, you can surely show two dyno sheets of the same factory stock engine showing hp increase when temps are lower? If lowering temps would mean more power why isn't it a popular mod on this forum? BMW didn't get significant drop in power when they went from 85C thermostat on M62 to 105C on M62tu. Too low engine temps will cause engine wear. If you extensive modify the engine (FI etc.) it makes sense to use colder thermostat so you don't cook the oil. Having colder running temps has it down sides in colder climates, it takes longer to evaporate water from the engine oil, which can cause mayo to form. It can clog your CCV. Colder coolant means you don't get as much heat as fast as you would with hotter coolant. So thermostat opening temperature is compromise that every car manufacturer has to make. I know it's a MAP control thermostat. It acts just like normal thermostat until you start to drive it like you stole it.

[Cyrix2k]

Since lower temps increase performance, you can surely show two dyno sheets of the same factory stock engine showing hp increase when temps are lower? If lowering temps would mean more power why isn't it a popular mod on this forum? BMW didn't get significant drop in power when they went from 85C thermostat on M62 to 105C on M62tu. Too low engine temps will cause engine wear. If you extensive modify the engine (FI etc.) it makes sense to use colder thermostat so you don't cook the oil. Having colder running temps has it down sides in colder climates, it takes longer to evaporate water from the engine oil, which can cause mayo to form. It can clog your CCV. Colder coolant means you don't get as much heat as fast as you would with hotter coolant. So thermostat opening temperature is compromise that every car manufacturer has to make. I know it's a MAP control thermostat. It acts just like normal thermostat until you start to drive it like you stole it.

I'm not wasting my time by proving what is well known. BMW did not change the thermostat operation from the M62 to the M62TU as you indicate - they are both mapped thermostats meaning they are under DME control.

This is from a BMW technical document on the M62. The same applies for the TU.

The characteristic map thermostat is designed such that it opens (engine inlet) at a coolant temperature at the thermostat of 103oC without intervention of the integrated heating system. Due to the coolant heating up in the engine, a temperature of approx. 110oC is measured at the point the coolant flows out of the engine (installation location of coolant temperature sensor for DME and instrument cluster gauge). This is the operating temperature of the engine, at which the characteristic map thermostat begins to open without control intervention. In the event of control intervention by the DME control unit, power (12 V) is applied to the heating element integrated in the thermostat. Heating the expansion element means that the thermostat now opens at lower coolant temperatures than would be the case without the additional heating function (thermostat control range: approx. 80oC - 103oC).

BMW is thus the first automobile manufacturer worldwide to use a characteristic map-controlled thermostat for specific control of the coolant temperature in a large volume production engine. With the aid of this thermostat it is possible to specifically increase the coolant temperature in the partial load range. By increasing the coolant temperature under these engine operating conditions, it is possible to reduce fuel consumption. The characteristic map thermostat is controlled by the DME M5.2 in conjunction with a characteristic map.


This characteristic map is determined by the following factors:
λ Engine load
λ Engine speed
λ Vehicle speed
λ Intake temperature
λ Coolant temperature

Please note the language - high temperatures are allowed in the partial load range to reduce fuel consumption.​

[ninetyseven1]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-Clutch-Delete


For your reading pleasure. Scores of pages of questions, answers, theory, and testimonials. Many of us run without a mechanical fan, as do many many more in other subforums.


You obviously have something else wrong with your car, something not fan related. Here's the deal. If you have something wrong that kills the coolant flow, be it a failed waterpump, bad t-stat, restriction, there will not be any hot coolant in the radiator to be cooled by the fan. When this happens, the mechanical fan will luft along drawing a bit of cool air. The electric fan will not turn on.

Thermostat. Water pump. And... isn't this the car you said the aux fan was broken and the car ... errr.... disappeared fanless for a few days? Though not a normal V8 problem, add blown head gaskets to the list,

No this is not that car that disappeared fan-less. That one is my wife's 540. I am discussing mine

[Spirit Force]

I'm not wasting my time by proving what is well known. BMW did not change the thermostat operation from the M62 to the M62TU as you indicate - they are both mapped thermostats meaning they are under DME control.

This is from a BMW technical document on the M62. The same applies for the TU.


Please note the language - high temperatures are allowed in the partial load range to reduce fuel consumption.​

Early M62 did use 85C thermostat. So did M60. We didn't see power drop when they started using the 105C map controlled thermostats. So do elaborate on this well known fact that cooler temps get you more hp on unmodified engine. Yes they used to MAP controlled thermostat to reduce fuel consumption. They also added Vanos to reduce fuel consumption.