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I now have 90k miles and thinking about getting my transmission fluid and filter changed. You guys think I should? And if I were to do it is this all I need besides the fluids?
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If you want help then take the time to post WHAT BMW you have, the year, the model, the make.
In general yes you should change the fluid and integral filter but NOT flush, just drain, refill according to BMW procedure and after the new pan/filter is installed...
For ZF transmissions BMW recommends every 100K miles from previous lifetime BS
ZF maker of the transmission recommends every 50K miles so the choice is yours...
BMWCCA 149159
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Yes I think you should change the transmission oil.Originally Posted by averdi
You could also consider changing the differential fluid as well while you're at it. Newer BMWs generally have a synthetic lifetime fluid. However it's been suggested by many to change it at least once (its quite easy) and your current miles seems like a good time to do it.
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-07-2013 at 09:12 PM.
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t
It all depends on how one defines the term "lifetime". Chances are, the lifetime will always be less if the original lubricants aren't changed after some period of time.
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i just got done putting 200K on my 01 passat and i did three transmission flushes. And Vw said their transmission was sealed, and every time i change the fluid i always had residue from the friction plates. Now that i sold the passat i am looking forward to put 200K on my E90. Think about changing coolant, brake fluid while your letting the transmission warm up during the flush.
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I went to buy transmission fluid today for my bmw. I drive a 6spd. The BMW dealership wasn't able to tell me if I had LT2 or LT3 fluid. So I have to get under the car to find out. I've been trying some vin decoders but nothing has worked yet. Anyone know a way to find out without getting dirty?
The best vin decoder I know is in german and says Heckantrieb for the transmission/drive.
EDIT: Heck just means RWD ;(
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-08-2013 at 09:32 PM.
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For the OP... here is my take.
First let's define terms. A flush is completely changing all 9 or so quarts in a typical transmission. A drain/refill is only draining 4-5 quarts and replacing what you drained (and generally the filter). It is NOT replacing all the fluid.
I don't see the point in a drain and refill unless you do it 2-3 times. I could see draining, refilling, driving for a few thousand miles. No problems? Drain again, refill. But that would be pretty expensive doing it anywhere except yourself and a pretty big hassle for DIY...
We have 127k miles on our 330i. Bought it when it had 30k. It shifts as good today as the day we bought it. It shifts as good as the loaners I get from BMW with 7k miles on them when we get an oil change.
If the '00 Jeep Cherokee we gave my wife's father can drive 200k+ miles on "non-lifetime" transmission fluid, my brother's 2000 VW Passat can drive 300k+ miles on never been changed transmission fluid, then I think our BMW can do it with alleged "lifetime" fluid.
I'll spend my money on preventive maintenance like suspension bushings, wheel bearings, tensioner/idler pulleys, serpentine belt... stuff that actually WILL wear out but generally get ignored by high-mileage drivers until they essentially fail.
If I were going to do anything with our car I'd do a flush. In a moment of weakness (long story) I flushed our 05 Jeep Grand Cherokee's transmission at 90k miles or so at the dealer. I have a mechanic friend (30+ years, retiring in Dec) who worked at a Firestone early in his career and did hundreds of flushes. I asked him if he ever had a transmission fail after a flush. He said, just one and it was already exhibiting problems. In fact, talking it over we agreed a drain/refill (not a flush) is probably worth a shot on a transmission that is having problems. There was a recent Wheeler Dealers episode where the Ed the mechanic solved a Porsche's Tiptronic problem solely through a drain/refill. If the transmission is on the way out a flush/refill is worth a shot to see if it saves it, but it may (or may do nothing at all to) accelerate it's death.
If you've had your car checked out: all the bushings, electronics, bearings, belts, etc. are in great condition and you have the money to burn then go ahead if it makes you sleep better at night. If you haven't done all that I think there is a strong argument for your return on investment being better elsewhere with the car.
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I have a 2006 325xi Sportwagon. My car has the ZF tranny. The 328i used a GM tranny. They do not use the same fluid so be sure to properly ID your tranny. The flush is not a good idea. You do not want to put anything in the gearbox other than OEM tranny fluid. The reason is, as the previous post suggests, you can only drain about 6 of the 9 liters of tranny fluid. I would drain the old fluid by dropping the pan, and replace the pan (which includes the filter). You need a pump to pump the fluid into the fill hole, which is done while the car is running and the tranny in Park. This brings the tranny fluid up to temperature so that it circulates through the transmission oil cooler. There are some very good DIY threads complete with pics to help illustrate proper fill techniques.
btw.....changed my fluid at 50k miles, and will do it every 50k miles for as long as I own the car. Replacing a tranny will run over $3000 dollars, so why not keep the tranny fluid fresh and make it last for 300K miles?
If you tell me the year and model of your car I will be happy to look in the Bentley manual and tell you what transmission you have and what the recommended fluid is.
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Dunno if you are referring to me or the OP. I'm going to assume me because I'm the one who asked what kind of transmission I have / what type of LT2/3 fluid. My info is in my post but I'll restate it with more info:
2007 BMW 328i Coupe Sports Package
6 Speed Manual
National Canadian Version
Production date 03.03.2007
I'll probably just check my transmission visually, but I'm curious if the Bentley manual actually has the info that BMW doesn't.
What I believe is important to state regarding transmission fluid is that:
BMW recommends a drain/fill of transmission fluid every 100k miles (hence not lifetime)
Bavarian Autosports recommends a drain/fill of transmission fluid every 50k miles and states even every 30k miles is not over doing it.
The US states that a vehicle reaches the legally-defined end of its useful life at 10 years or 120,000 miles for most cars. This is obviously not always the case. Consumer reports states that the estimated life expectancy of an average car is about 150,000 miles. By this definition BMWs transmission fluid is "lifetime" and that name certainly helps sell cars. Most people think that because BMW calls their transmission fluids "Lifetime" or "Extended Service" it doesn't have to be changed. Not true, unless you'd like to maintain your car well only until 120k miles.
Here is a DIY youtube video of an automatic BMW transmission fluid drain/fill that I found especially well done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZbA-OqoPJQ
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-10-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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Sorry I assumed you had an auto transmission. Bentley manual says 328i cars got the Getrag type I unit (note that the 328ix got the type H unit). The turbo cars use a ZF gearbox.
Your 328i Getrag should be the GS6-17BG This is an excellent tranny. It should go 300K miles if not abused. Bentley says use MTF-LT-3 if your car is not all wheel drive.
There is less concern about long service intervals with manuals than with autos. But I still think it is wise to change the MTF every 50K miles. Clean oil will keep the bearings from wearing, which means crisp shifts, low noise, and long life.
Draining is a simple procedure on a manual. And it only needs 1.3 liters to refill (contrast that to an auto which requires 6 liters to fill!)
My 1995 525i used the Getrag 5 speed manual. I drove it 156K miles, then the car was wrecked after being hit by a drunk driver. My tranny was transplanted into a nice 525i Touring (to replace an auto transmission, a GM unit which had reached the end of its life). I bet that tranny will do another 150K miles in that Touring.
btw........I used 50K miles service intervals on that 525i.
Hope this helps and good luck with your project.
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Not trying to be argumentative but you claim a lot of things and don't really support it with any evidence.
1. Can you prove this? My BMW dealer doesn't recommend this.
2. Of course they do. They are a parts vendor!
3. Where does the government of the U.S.A. define this? We are at 127k miles on our 330i... I've said it over and over again on this forum, it drives as nice as the 4k-mile loaners we get from the dealer. These quoted averages are worthless.
4. Are we talking transmissions or cars. Why put money into a transmission if the whole car is going to die at 150,000?
5. My dealer believes BMW. They believe it about the coolant, too. But they will change it if you want.
The simple fact of the matter is NO ONE has any statistical proof that BMW transmissions are failing because of the "lifetime fluid" claim. Lets also remember that a transmission can fail for many other reasons that have nothing to do with the condition of the fluid. The mechanic I mentioned in my first post had his F150 transmission fail after 100k miles. He never changed the fluid but he also said what went wrong had nothing to do with the fluid!
So even of those transmissions that DO fail, how many of those failures can even possibly be attributed to the oil inside?
Here is a link polling people about whether they have changed their transmission fluid. Guess what? People still see their transmissions fail even though they have done fluid changes... Some components fail, nothing is perfect. Your piece of mind may not be so valuable.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d-Lifetime-ATF
Now there is a recent lawsuit from some Mini owners regarding BMW's claim. However, there is no statistical proof in the news report that Mini transmissions are failing at a higher than average rate... pretty important piece of evidence you would think a reporter would put in there... if it existed...
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mini-...ry?id=20579484
Last edited by S197GT; 11-11-2013 at 04:27 PM.
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I think each of us has to decide if we are long term owners or short term owners. I am in it for the long term. I like to buy a new car and drive it as long as possible. I have been lucky enough to drive some great cars for 250K miles. For me I never ask "how little can I get by on" when thinking about maintenance. I always ask "how much can I do for my car, to make it last as long as possible?" These cars are well engineered and can have a very long service life. But they do need to be maintained, and fluids are a critical maintenance item. I have a car in my driveway that I bought 21 years ago, that has delivered 208K miles of service. And I will keep it as long as is practical. I never skimp on maintenance, and almost never pay for it either. For me it is DIY.
Time for each of us to ask ourselves it we are in the camp of 1.) how little can I get by on? or 2.) how much can I do for my car, to make it last as long as possible?"
btw......I am stock all the way, no spending on mods, but never skimp on maintenance. Being an engineer probably has something to do with my mindset.
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I agree completely with your POV.
Moving from transmissions to brakes...BMW recommends a fluid change every 2 years on the E9x models, but I know several owners that don't ever have it changed, and most of them don't see many fluid-related problems. And, that's probably due to them keeping the cars 6-7 years, tops. I have no doubt that subsequent owners of those cars see fluid related issues that most likely could have been avoided with frequent fluid changes.
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You are being angry argumentative. It is not particularly fun to discuss with such a person. For the sake of providing proper solid information I have decided to respond but I want to enjoy myself. So I now reserve the right to wtfpwn you and riddle this post with any sarcasm, joke, pun, annoying, and funny as I see fit to keep me (and others?) entertained while providing solid knowledge.
1) Sure here is proof in the pudding.
"The Upgraded Maintenance1 option extends the Standard Maintenance period, when purchased, by an additional 2 years/50,000 miles to 6 years or 100,000 miles"
"The factory-recommended maintenance service items listed below are covered"
"Manual transmission oil3"
Quotes from:
http://www.bmwusa.com/mpdisclaimer
Transmission oil is listed under factory-recommended maintenance on BMWs website for cars that come with "Lifetime" transmission fluid.
2) You don't believe in changing transmission oil every 50k miles mark because Bavarian Autosports sells stuff?
That's fine. The Haynes manual recommends changing transmission fluid every 60k miles. Maybe if you permanently stain your Haynes underwear while changing transmission oil they can collect your money after suing for the copyrighted Haynes trademarks.
Let me know if you need me to take a pic of my Haynes manual for proof. No I will not take a pic of my Haynes underwear for you, you weirdo.
3) You want me to prove that the average lifespan of a vehicle in US is about 10 years or 120k miles, even though I made this statement for the sole purpose of explaining how why BMW is able to call their fluid "lifetime"? Fine
"The average age of the cars and trucks on U.S. roads hit a record 10.8 years as of July 1, 2011"
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...olk/52613102/1
"average annual passenger car mileage of 12,000 miles"
www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/420f08024.pdf
Page 3 of this PDF from a government website.
Now how good is your math? I'll help you 12 X 10.8 = 129.6k miles is the average lifespan of a vehicle in the United States in 2011 (PS. when our cars were built it was 120k)
Glad you opened that one up for debate. We can all sleep better tonight having calculated the average lifespan of a car on the road in the United States! Yeahhhh!
4) I will repeat again. BMWs transmission fluid is "lifetime" because it will reach the average lifespan of a car on the road in the United States which is 120k miles (according to govt) and 150k miles (according to consumer reports) without changing the fluid.
I feel the need to repeat as you seem really confused on this one. Otherwise I'm afraid you might drive your car into a dumpster at 150k miles. "Lifetime" means it will survive the average lifespan of a car on US roads. If you are planning to throw away your car or transmission at 150k miles than transmission fluid does not need replacement. If you'd like your car to keep your car longer than 120/150k miles than it is recommended you change this fluid. Like anything else on your car if you maintain it, it will last longer. If you don't you run the risk of it breaking.
5) Your dealer believe BMW? Your dealer believes BMW "Lifetime" fluids will outlast the rest of the car? Wow. Speechless. This unnamed dealer of yours has totally changed my mind about transmission fluid. I'll never change it on my BMW again! (sarcasm)
You just linked to a poll done in 2006 to find out how effective the "Lifetime" fluid has been on BMW. Now since the oldest record I can find of BMW "Lifetime" fluid being available is from about the year 2000. Do you understand that in 6 years those cars have not reached what BMW's definition of "Lifetime" is (the average lifespan of a car on the roads of the United States).
Before I repeat once again I need to know:
Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth? - Chris Tucker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rl9Cxc7uZA
Come on now though. The truth is a transmission like any other component can break at anytime. Might make it 20k, might make it 50k, might make it 130k, might make it 350k. You will never know. What we do know is that changing your transmission oil may (and probably will) extend its life. It might extend it from 20k to 22k it might extend it from 20k to 400k. It depends on how you drive, how you shift, how aggressive you drive, and even more so its a luck of the draw. But if you believe "Lifetime" means it will outlive the car or its driver you are a complete fool.
You seem to really want to talk about failing transmission due to "lifetime" fluid. I never made a statement saying BMW transmissions are failing because of the "lifetime fluid" claim. I wouldn't because its not true. All transmission will fail at some point. All I'm recommending is you change the fluid and hope it lasts longer. There is no need to talk F150 transmissions, Minis, or any other sole incident of a random friend of a cousin who's transmission failed on a car he bought from a 4th owner and you feel this 1 person out of the billions in the world must be an accurate example of all transmissions.
cochise325 and Pyewacket69 summed it up so nicely in just a few words: what can I do to make my car last longer? trying to get by with as little as possible will get you as little as possible out of your car (even if it drives like a 4k mile rental right now it will catch up to you sooner when it could have been much later)
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-12-2013 at 09:57 AM.
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The OP, having posted this question in 3 forums, has certainly gotten his money's worth.
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i must be the most polite angry arguer!
1. The schedule you refer to speaks only of manual transmissions. The "3" citation states, "3Applicable models only"; so not only is it talking only about manual transmissions but it is also only applicable to a subset of "applicable" models. You need to get on the same page as the rest of us.
The argument is existential. That is to say, if BMW actually suggested replacing lifetime fluids we wouldn't be here discussing whether to change lifetime fluids.
I think, therefore I am. They say don't, therefore we argue whether we should.
2. You are twisting my words. I'd rather argue with an angry person than a disingenuous person who twists my words.
3. Ok, you are citing USA Today and the EPA. I bow down to those car Gods.
4. I don't have anything to add.
5. Dreyer and Reinbold North; Indianapolis. Service Advisor is Mike Gilleran. As far as dealerships go, at least on the service side, pretty decent:
http://www.dreyerreinboldbmwnorth.com/index.htm
The poll STARTED in 2006. It is on-going. It is 22 pages long. Last post was 10/2013. It is at least an honest attempt to quantify and provide evidence for the validity of the claim and way better than anything you have posted.
Last edited by S197GT; 11-13-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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1) I have provided solid proof that changing at least one Lifetime fluid is part of BMW factory-recommended maintenance. The fact its a manual transmission fluid and on "applicable models" does not disqualify this statement. You try wayyyy to hard for the sake of arguing.
2) I did not twist your words at all. You stated Bavarian Autosports recommends changing a lifetime fluid because "they are a parts vendor". So I provided you with the Haynes manual recommendation which is not a parts vendor. Where did I twist your words? Lets face it you just had to write something under number 2 and had nothing constructive to say.
3) You will find this same article on dozens of sites in case you think USA Today is trying to trick you like you believe Bavarian Autosports is trying to steal your money. And did you REALLY just attempt an attack on the "average 12k miles per year" because its pretty damn common knowledge. I'm surprised I even took the time to link you proof. As for your attack on EPA. Do you even know what the EPA is? It's called the United States Environmental Protection Agency and it is a government website.
You asked "Where does the government of U.S.A define this?" Now you tell me the EPA is not government-enough for you. Why did you ask in the first place? Oh yea for the sake of arguing.
5) I have nothing against your poll. It actually supports most of the claims I've made. Read next post!
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-14-2013 at 07:23 AM.
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I think something positive may have actually come out of this threads derailment.
I was looking at the auto transmission poll. Which can be rewritten (and easier to understand) as follows:
19.5% of auto transmissions failed without a transmission oil change (147/752 transmissions)
19.3% of auto transmissions failed with a BMW specified ATF fluid change (49/253 transmissions)
6.0% of auto transmissions failed with non-BMW ATF fluid change (15/245 transmissions)
What this actually suggests is that:
1) BMW "Lifetime" ATF fluids quality and performance does not degrade over time.
2) BMW "Lifetime" ATF fluid is manufactured of such poor quality that it causes substantial damage to the transmission.
Cars running BMW ATF fluid (with and without transmission oil changes) fail more than 3 times more often than transmissions that switched to non-BMW ATF fluid.
Now you have to wonder what the transmission failure rate would be for a BMW that has it's BMW specified ATF fluid changed to non-BMW ATF fluid at the time of initial purchase. This is something that likely has never happened, but could bring automatic transmission failure down to well below 6%.
Source:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d-Lifetime-ATF
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-14-2013 at 07:41 AM.
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There are always multiple failure modes with any sophisticated device. Fluids are only part of the operating system. People have had to pull transmissions because the connector pins were damaged when the harness was connected during assembly. And driving habits can put lots of stress on the tranny. Heat is the enemy of that ATF fluid, so hard use in a hot environment is going to raise hell with the ATF, and that in turn will lead to trouble with the tranny. I know people who tow heavy loads and the first thing they always worry about is the transmission heat, which is why these tow rigs are always equipped with oil coolers (which BMW has wisely incorporated into their cars even though they do not endorse towing).
If you are in the camp of 1.) how little can I get away with for maintenance, you will have a very hard time convincing the people who are in the camp of 2.) how much can I do for my car to make it last a long time? that they should skimp on fluid changes.
Just decide which camp you are in and don't try too hard to convince the people in the other camp.
I believe in buying great products and taking really good care of them. In return I get loooooooong service life, and satisfaction that I treated the thing with respect.
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Chances are that, from a statistical point of view, those numbers really mean nothing significant across the general BMW population, since only a few percent of owners ever visit any car forum, much less enter comments or respond to surveys on them. After all, the total number of transmissions in the "survey" is less than a single day's production of BMW transmissions. Personally, before I made any assumptions, I'd want to see a better set of numbers...
Cochise really has it down right...
Last edited by Pyewacket69; 11-14-2013 at 09:19 AM.
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Totally agreed.
I'd like more survey polls as well, but let's face it these numbers are the best resource we have. At 1250 transmissions the votes are enough to show a definite trend.
I agree that an environment with too much heat will in turn lead to transmission issues. As will driving habits, etc. But I don't see how that impacts the poll. Bad driving habits and hot environments should be distributed among all 6 categories of the poll equally (this will never be 100% true but at 1250 votes it should be equalizing its distribution).
I see no reason why people in any category (ex. never changed ATF fluid) are more/less likely to be living in hot environments or have bad driving habits as opposed to people in any other category (ex. changed with BMW ATF fluid). Any variation of this statement holds no basis of truth as the distribution should be 100% random.
The only real question here is: Are 1250 votes enough to indicate a trend?
Considering the large gap between failure rates I think it is.
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I hold an advanced degree in finance and statistics, and I feel 100% comfortable in telling you those numbers mean zilch.
They fail the two critical tests in statistical analysis:
Validity and reliability.
That doesn't mean the transmission issues don't exist, but it does mean coming to that conclusion based upon this particular survey is flawed in a number of significant ways.
Member
Even with BMWs archive of warranty serviced vehicles and their reliability you can still question the validity and reliability of those statistics.
What you've completely ignored is that most people post their personal experience about what happened on their own car. The majority of forum goers make their decisions based on very few of these personal experiences. When in reality you are right in the scheme of millions of BMW transmissions any experience means zilch. Yet it is this "zilch" that we use to make our everyday choices.
Using 1250 personal experiences to make your choice is still "zilch" in the grand scheme of millions of BMW transmissions. Even 100,000 experiences would be "zilch" in the context of this poll.
The bottom line is we have to make a choice.
Would you rather make it based on 5 experiences posted in a thread or the overall trend of 1250 experiences?
PS. I'm not trying to sue BMW here (funny enough its already been done over this exact issue). What I'm trying to do is help those interested in this question make the best possible decision that they can with the information that is available to us.
Sure truthfully when it comes down to it this choice is meaningless. But where is the peace of mind in that?
Last edited by Wildcaster; 11-14-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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And what you have ignored is the incredibly large majority of ANY car make/model owners don't post anything at all, whether it be good or bad experiences. In fact, they don't even visit forums at all.
Personally, I don't base my purchasing decisions on any opinions I read in forums. What I read may entice me to do additional research on a particular subject, but that's about it.
Member
I think you should re-read the OP.
Then explain to him that nobody can give him a useful opinion worth "zilch" due to the vast majority of car owners that do not go on forums.
Or maybe you can give him 1250 experiences that point towards BMW "Lifetime" fluid having an extended longevity at the cost of its quality being substantially reduced.
Thus giving him some peace of mind in his choice.
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