Shudder/shake when clutch disengaged and trans in gear

[bobbyt454]

Hi all,
Quick background on the car. It is a '99 328is that has just under 150k miles. It has a relatively new clutch (roughly 30k miles on it) and relatively new trans (80k on it, replaced by dealer), but the dual mass flywheel is original (it was inspected when I had the clutch done and did not need to be replaced).

After a long day of flushing and bleeding my cooling system (the main hose to the radiator blew off Saturday afternoon), and a nice drive home I was greeted with a very unsettling shudder and shake in the front of my car while parking. If I depressed the clutch pedal and put the car in gear is shudders and shakes very noticeably in reverse and first gear, and then less noticeably in each proceeding gear. It does not seem to shudder and shake while being driven, but for about 6 months a shudder has come and gone when starting from a stop in reverse and sometimes first.

My first two thoughts are a failing fall out bearing, or perhaps the input shaft bearing, but I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that it is an excess of water and anti-freeze causing a slip due to the engine compartment of my car being doused from the hose blowing off, and then r4om from the draining, flushing, and bleeding process. It started last night when I parked it for the night and I was too beat to deal with it. I'll start it up today after work and drive it around and see if it is still an issue. I know this won't fix a mechanical issue but if something was slipping due to being doused in anti-freeze, maybe time and driving could resolve it (tho I know this is an unlikely cause). In the meantime does any thoughts on what this could be? Any input is appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

[sjpgoalie]

If it's not accompanied by a squeal sitting engaged or disengaged, I am actually willing to bet that it is a mount somewhere in the driveline. Does it vibrate in gear with the clutched pressed in?

[bobbyt454]

Yes. It only vibrates/shudders in gear with the clutch pressed in. There is no squealing at any times.

[sjpgoalie]

Yes. It only vibrates/shudders in gear with the clutch pressed in. There is no squealing at any times.

So no vibrating with the clutch pressed as you're rolling down the road, correct?

[bobbyt454]

I haven't tested it in motion. I noticed it just as I parked for the night last night. It was occuring while still, with the pedal pressed and in gear. I did not notice it until I was stopped. There has been a slight shake lately between 45-65 mph but I thought that was a warped rotor.

[bobbyt454]

OK so last night I took her out and tried to observe any feedback the car would give me. I noticed these things.
1. It does not happen (at least at an audible level) while moving.
2. It was much less severe when I was not applying brakes (disc or emergency).
3. It is usually much more noticeable in R, 1 and 2 gear, and almost non-existent in 3-5.
4. When standing still, and in gear, when you let the clutch out the car would creep. This made me think it might be the clutch not disengaging. I checked the master cylinder and found it was a bit low, so I topped it off (some air came bubbles appeared, and it makes sense that it was low, since there was/is some shudder at times starting from a stop in first or reverse, almost like there is some oil on the clutch/flywheel), and the creeping stopped, but also it now became audible whether or not the breaks were on or off.
5. It does not happen all the time. Usually it has to be running a bit for it to happen, and even at that it is inconsistent. At times it will be quit audible, but then taking it out of gear and putting it back into the same gear will stop it from happening. It's pouring today, but if/when the rain stops I'm going to check the master cylinder again, and then try to chase down the leak. I'll check the slave cylinder and the floor of the car for fluid.

Any help/thoughts on what could be causing this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!
Bob

[Jasonrc2]

I have the same issue!!! can anyone help?

[flyfishvt]

There are dozens of possible causes. Unfortunately not very many can be accurately diagnosed without pulling the tranny. If you are losing fluid make sure its the clutch and not the brakes. The most common cause of fluid loss is the slave. If its leaking that much that you had to add fluid then you should see evidence of the lek where the bell housing meets the engine. It's super easy to remove the slave and look for fluid around the piston.

My first guess is the flywheel but that wouldn't cause noise. It would just vibrate as you let off the clutch pedal so that leaves the throw out bearing or the pilot bearing. I wild almost put money on it that its the TO bearing.

If you put it in neutral and take your foot off the clutch does it still vibrate and make noise? Kind of a squeezing sound? That would be the TO bearing. You may end up pulling the tranny to confirm.

[Butters Stoch]

DMF is most likely junk

[bobbyt454]

There are dozens of possible causes. Unfortunately not very many can be accurately diagnosed without pulling the tranny. If you are losing fluid make sure its the clutch and not the brakes. The most common cause of fluid loss is the slave. If its leaking that much that you had to add fluid then you should see evidence of the lek where the bell housing meets the engine. It's super easy to remove the slave and look for fluid around the piston.

My first guess is the flywheel but that wouldn't cause noise. It would just vibrate as you let off the clutch pedal so that leaves the throw out bearing or the pilot bearing. I wild almost put money on it that its the TO bearing.

If you put it in neutral and take your foot off the clutch does it still vibrate and make noise? Kind of a squeezing sound? That would be the TO bearing. You may end up pulling the tranny to confirm.

After I added fluid the shudder/knocking went away completely for two weeks, and then it just started up again today. I checked the fluid and it wasn't low, but I'm not sure how much that fluid expands when it's hot, if at all, I'm also not sure how much air or if any had gotten into the system.

The knocking/shudder goes away completely if I put it in neutral and take my foot off the clutch. I hear no irregular sounds (except for a loud power steering pump, which gets louder when the RPM's increase and when turning the wheel).

I figure I'll let the car cool down and check the fluid again, and then get under it next Friday (because I'm off work that day).

[bobbyt454]

Also, now there is some clutch chatter when starting from a stop, and at times while downshifting...

There are dozens of possible causes. Unfortunately not very many can be accurately diagnosed without pulling the tranny. If you are losing fluid make sure its the clutch and not the brakes. The most common cause of fluid loss is the slave. If its leaking that much that you had to add fluid then you should see evidence of the lek where the bell housing meets the engine. It's super easy to remove the slave and look for fluid around the piston.

My first guess is the flywheel but that wouldn't cause noise. It would just vibrate as you let off the clutch pedal so that leaves the throw out bearing or the pilot bearing. I wild almost put money on it that its the TO bearing.

If you put it in neutral and take your foot off the clutch does it still vibrate and make noise? Kind of a squeezing sound? That would be the TO bearing. You may end up pulling the tranny to confirm.

[flyfishvt]

time to pull the tranny and see what going on.

[bobbyt454]

Yup. To be honest, I've never dropped a trans before. It sounds like it's a nightmare, particularly if you don't have a lift (which I don't). Is it as bad as the pelican parts write up/bentley manual make it sound?

[EE05063]

DMF is most likely junk

Is it really too much to ask to spell it out. Or should I have said, is it really TMTATSIO?

WTF is a DMF up ITT?

By the way, I agree, sounds like the Dual Mass Flywheel is separating.

[bobbyt454]

Is it really too much to ask to spell it out. Or should I have said, is it really TMTATSIO?

WTF is a DMF up ITT?

By the way, I agree, sounds like the Dual Mass Flywheel is separating.

Yea. I had no evidence to prove it, but I was thinking along those lines too since the clutch and t/o bearing are pretty new. I should have had the flywheel done when I had the clutch done, but I didn't have the scratch.

[EE05063]

Yea. I had no evidence to prove it, but I was thinking along those lines too since the clutch and t/o bearing are pretty new. I should have had the flywheel done when I had the clutch done, but I didn't have the scratch.

You can replace the flywheel with a solid lightweight one that uses a stock M5 disc and pressure plate for the same kind of money if you decide to do it. That way you gain performance and ability to have a turnable flywheel in the future.

[flyfishvt]

Dropping the trans is a big job. No doubt about it. Not technically difficult but its still a big job. Most people seem to run into the same problems taking it out and putting it back in so anyone who's done it can certainly help. If you have the will power then plan on a long weekend to get it done. Ive done it 3 times and everytime is on jack stands in my carport.

[EE05063]

Dropping the trans is a big job. No doubt about it. Not technically difficult but its still a big job. Most people seem to run into the same problems taking it out and putting it back in so anyone who's done it can certainly help. If you have the will power then plan on a long weekend to get it done. Ive done it 3 times and everytime is on jack stands in my carport.

Yeah I've done it too, it's frustrating the first time, easy afterwards.

[bobbyt454]

Dropping the trans is a big job. No doubt about it. Not technically difficult but its still a big job. Most people seem to run into the same problems taking it out and putting it back in so anyone who's done it can certainly help. If you have the will power then plan on a long weekend to get it done. Ive done it 3 times and everytime is on jack stands in my carport.

Thanks guys. What might those problems be? Are there anything parts of the job I should plan on being particularly more ball breaking than the rest?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks guys. What might those problems be? Are there anything parts of the job I should plan on being particularly more ball breaking than the rest?

P.s. Are you guys using air tools? Would it be a worthwhile investment for a job like this?

[flyfishvt]

Let see...Getting the top tranny bolts off, Getting the tranny to release from the pilot bearing so it will slide out. Dealing with the exhaust manifold studs, Getting it back in flish with the engine.

Its all the same issues and we always manage to help enought to get the tranny out and back in. I was surprised at how few tools it actually takes. The only reall special tools is some very long extensions for your ratchet and a set of cheap inverted torx sockets. If you were to remove and reinstall the tranny without replacing any parts then you would only need 2 exhaust gaskets that generally run $15 for the pair. You will obviously be swapping a few parts besides those. Keep in mind that dropping the tranny is 1)something yoiu only want to do once so do it right and repalce what needs to be replaced. Dont cut corners 2) its a unique opportunity to have access to parts of your car that you normally would not have easy access to. Lots of parts can be replaced that will make your car more reliable and fun to drive. Things like new shifter linkage bushings and a rear main seal are one time items that are an absolute pain to replace under normal circumstances. With the trany out you'll have easy access to lots of things. An extra $100 or $150 will be money well spent.

[EE05063]

Get the copper nuts for the exhaust flanges.

[bobbyt454]

Get the copper nuts for the exhaust flanges.

Thank you very much guys. I'm taking all of this into consideration. Since I just hit 150k miles, I'm beginning to think about what other work this car may need in the near future. Should I expect to have to replace the timing chain soon? Is there a mileage range for when these normally need to be replaced? I ask because if this is a job that is above my pay grade, I'm wondering if it's worth dropping the trans and doing the flywheel/clutch/linkage bushings, etc if I will soon need to replace the timing chain. Thanks again!

[EE05063]

I asked the same thing here a while ago and the consensus was unless there is a problem with it, that the bottom end and timing set are good for a long time. Many people go through a couple head gasket/head rework jobs on the same bottom end. You could replace the guides and tensioner for the chain, but by the time you are there you may as well replace the stretched chain.

Advice was go there when you need to, not as preventative maintenance.

[bobbyt454]

I asked the same thing here a while ago and the consensus was unless there is a problem with it, that the bottom end and timing set are good for a long time. Many people go through a couple head gasket/head rework jobs on the same bottom end. You could replace the guides and tensioner for the chain, but by the time you are there you may as well replace the stretched chain.

Advice was go there when you need to, not as preventative maintenance.

Thanks, that's def good to hear. Is there any sort of mileage range for when I should expect it to go?

[flyfishvt]

Timing chain doesn't need to be a concern. They don't fail enough times to even think about it. Even if your car had 300,000 miles I'd tell you the same thing. Worry about stuff you need to. The timing chain isn't one of them