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Thread: Canadian E36 DRL question

  1. #1
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    Canadian E36 DRL question

    Hi guys! Hello from Australia!

    I have a quick question about Canadian market cars that have the factory High Beam Lights operating as DRL's installed.

    Is it possible to flash the high beams when the car is actually switched OFF?

    i.e. Ignition is switched off and key is removed from ignition. Light switch OFF as well.

    Can you still get high beams to flash if you pull the stalk to the "flash" position?

    As far as I can see from the wiring diagrams, if the DRL relay doesn't have an ignition signal to pin 5, the the "relay" does not operate at all.

    So it appears the "coil" to trigger the high beam lights will not operate either. (Pin 8 input from flasher switch)

    (I use these terms for descriptive purposes, as it is, of course, an electronic module and not an actual relay inside)

    Just wondering if someone could confirm this is the case with their car.

    Thanks

    Graeme
    Last edited by graeme86; 08-02-2011 at 11:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    Here is a DIY with some tests I ran on the Canadian E36 DRL module. BMW wires it to have constant (unfused!) power. If you can get +12V, by hook or by crook, to pin 8, the head beams will light 100% on.

    I'm currently mucking with this very circuit to sense the high beam flash switch when the ignition is off (without lighting the high beams).

    BTW, that module should produce roughly 8000 cd with the stock ellipsoid headlights, which is above the 7000 cd DRL limit for Canada and way above the 1200 cd limit in other parts of the world -- including Oz? (I thought Oz subscribed to that bit of the UN convention.)
    Last edited by johnf; 08-02-2011 at 12:53 PM.

  3. #3
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    Thanks very much for your link. I have seen that page before.

    The last line is intriguing:

    "Connecting Pin 8 to 12V... turns high beams 100% on, independent of the voltages on pins 1 & 5"

    Certainly not the case in my car when the ignition is OFF for some reason.

    The flasher powers up Pin 8 directly with 12V battery power, but the high beams do not come on at all unless there is 12V on Pin 5 as well.
    Last edited by graeme86; 08-02-2011 at 01:56 PM.

  4. #4
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    My pin 5 is presently unconnected. I just double-checked. The high beams come on as soon as they see 12V on pin 8. The stock wiring won't do that, however, until the ignition is at position 2. Have you modified the wiring to apply 12V to pin 8 when the ignition is off?
    Last edited by johnf; 08-02-2011 at 02:22 PM.

  5. #5
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    I have:

    Pin 1 - 12V when Ignition ON and Light switch in "0" position only (15+)

    This means DRLs only work in Lights Off position and not with park lights/fogs

    Pin 2 - output to high beam lamps (via fuses)

    Pin 4 - Earth

    Pin 5 - 15+ (12V when Ignition ON only)

    Pin 6 - 12V Battery power (30+)

    Pin 7 - to Fog relay coil to disable high beam with foglights on

    Pin 8 - connects from high beam flasher stalk.

    The "flash to pass" component of the flasher switch is supplied with 30+ 12V battery power. The main high beam "ON" switch is supplied 15+ via the headlight switch (only when in position "2")

    I have previously tested putting 30+ battery power to Pin 5 and then the high beams flashed with ignition off.

    This drew me to conclusion that relay won't work without power at Pin 5 in some form.

    Hence my question as to whether OEM install does flash okay with power off.
    Last edited by graeme86; 08-03-2011 at 05:54 AM.

  6. #6
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    I think I may understand. As what used to be called a man of positive action, I leapt at the possibility that you wanted to flash the high beams with the ignition off, and started thinking of how you might do that. It can be a troublesome habit.

    All the ETMs I have looked at show the high beam switch first getting power at ignition switch position 2.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-03-2011 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #7
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    That is correct.

    That's exactly what I am trying to achieve.

    I have tested a "flip-flop" relay (85,86,87,87a,30 pins) in my circuit that will do the job.

    Feed from flasher 30+ to original BMW DRL relay Pin 8 AND to flip-flop 85 AND 87

    Flip flop 86 to earth.

    15+ feed to 87a on flip-flop

    Pin 30 from flip-flop to Pin 5 on DRL relay

    So when ignition ON, the DRL relay circuitry is just powered by 15+ feed through the flip-flop in its rest position (87a -> 30 pin)

    If you flash high beams, then the coil of flip-flop is energised also which switches the feed going to Pin 5 on DRL to the 30+ battery feed also via 87 pin, so that the high beams can flash.

    A rather complicated way to achieve something that perhaps should happen standard, as most cars are capable of doing this.

    Indeed possibly a legal requirement?

    That's why I thought it strange that Canadian cars may not do this standard when they have the DRL module fitted.

    The high beams flash perfectly when ignition is on as they should, just not when car is off.

    Just so we are on the same page here, I am using the DRL Relay 61 35 8 368 039

    The "flip-flop" relay I describe is the generic "Bosch" SPDT relay.

    I appreciate your assistance.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by graeme86 View Post
    Just so we are on the same page here, I am using the DRL Relay 61 35 8 368 039
    I expect to pull that relay in a week or two. I'll take a look and check again what mine needs to flash the output.

    There may have been a design change since having pin 5 disable the headlight flash/on input is redundant. My relay is also missing pin 7 and wouldn't allow a set of front fog lights to turn on per the BMW NA ETM CD for 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-04-2011 at 03:59 AM.

  9. #9
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    I bought mine brand new from BMW last year, so it should be the latest version available.

    I very vaguely recall seeing another DRL relay part number when I was researching this initially.

    I will check my notes again.

    Thanks again.

    Graeme

  10. #10
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    I am from Canada and my 1993 318is DRL is the low beam lamp. Hence I can still flash to pass as the high beams are not the DRL's.

    What I want to do is have only the side markers come on as the DRL's, not the low beam lamps. The way my car is set up is when I start the car all the lights come on (ie. tails, front markers and low beam DRL's) and the light switch is off. Even if I leave the light switch on and stop the car all the lights will go off.

    Anyone know how to do this?

  11. #11
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    Sounds like you have the Canadian market "fix-it version" DRL set-up that BMW did to get around the DRL requirement.

    This thread has some details on disabling the system:

    http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122627

    So it won't be hard to work out from this what you need to modify on yours.


  12. #12
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    Thanks for the link. I'll try it out and let you know how it turns out.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by graeme86 View Post
    The high beams flash perfectly when ignition is on as they should, just not when car is off.
    I did a little probing of the turn stalk this afternoon.

    The high beams don't flash with the ignition off because turn stalk pin 9 doesn't get power for the high beam flash contact unless the ignition is on. You could supply constant power to pin 9 to flash with the ignition off, but then pin 9 also supplies the turn signal contacts, so those would also work with the ignition off. (Everything could flash with the ignition off.) To work around that, you could place a DPDT relay between the turn stalk and the flasher module, and close it when the ignition is on.

    My DRL module will be the next item on the agenda.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-21-2011 at 09:19 AM.

  14. #14
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    I have a 98 Canadian car and the high beams do not flash with the ignition off, only with the key in position 2 when the DRLs are on.

    Gave away my BMWs, driving a VW and an Audi now.

  15. #15
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    Oh, I believe you! The OP would like to flash with the ignition off.

  16. #16
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    I'd like mine to run with the ignition off. How would I go about that?

    What I mean to say is, can I ask why you want to flash with the ignition off?

  17. #17
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    Thanks everyone for their feedback.

    Just to clarify, as per my profile, I have a 2004 R32 Golf to which I have retrofitted this BMW DRL relay. Quite complicated as there are quite a few differences in wiring between the two cars. Looks great - very happy with the final result!



    In the original VW setup, the flasher is supplied with 30+ power, so you can pull the lever to flash the high beams (with the ignition off or on). If you push the lever back it locks on high beams permanently, they only work with the light switch on and only when ignition is on, as there is a different supply for this feed to the switch.

    The VW does not have any relay at all for the high beams (or low beams) - all the lights are direct connections through high current switches.

    xlDooM My original wiring does allow flashing high beam with ignition OFF. I thought it may be some legal requirement, but its a handy feature anyway.

    I am also retrofitting another relay as well out of a Skoda Superb 3U / Polo 9N that acts as a Coming Home Lights setup with a timer to run your low beams (or fogs or whatever you wire to the relay) for a minute or so after you get out of car.

    This relay uses the high beam flasher signal to start the timer before you get out of car, so you can manually select when you want the Coming Home Lights to operate.

    When I initially installed the BMW DRL relay I thought it would still work to flash the lights without ignition on, as the "coil input" (Pin 8/86) to operate the high beam part of the relay is still getting power (at least from my flasher stalk).

    Alas, it appears that the BMW DRL relay must have 12V at the 5/15 pin to operate the internal circuitry at all.

    As per my previous post, you can work around this issue by adding in a SPDT relay that switches the 30+ feed to this Pin 5/15 when you pull the flasher stalk. At all other times 5/15 just gets normal ignition feed for the DRL operation.

    I can post up a schematic if anyone is interested - would need a slight tweek like johnf described for the BMW setup because the High Beam switch is wired different.

    The Skoda Superb Coming Home relay would work in any slightly older cars without CANBUS etc as well, by the way, as it is purely an electrical connection. Just needs 30+, 15+, 56a (high), 56b (low), 31 (earth) and TK (door switch signal)


  18. #18
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    That looks very good.

    As part of adding BMW-style pathway lighting, I rewired the high beam circuit to sense when you pull the stalk -- with the ignition off and without flashing the high beams or their dash indicator. It would have been easier to rewire the circuit to flash with the ignition off, but much less of a challenge!

    Out of curiosity, what prompted you to add both DRL and pathway lighting? I made them one project because I had originally thought I could use the high beams for both. I soon realized they were best for an awful long and straight path. I now use the front fog lights for pathway lighting.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-22-2011 at 08:21 PM.

  19. #19
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    DRL's are now becoming manadatory on new cars here (finally!).

    I like the concept....too many morons with silver cars driving round at twilight and in the rain with no lights on at all.

    Pathway lighting ("Coming Home" in VW-speak) will be mainly handy to light up my garage when I get out of the car at night. No need to stumble up to the light switch in the dark or even needing to turn it on at all now.

    I am using the fogs for this as well as I preferred not to have my Xenon lowbeams running - plus the low flat light will be more suitable as you have found.


  20. #20
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    I double-checked my DRL module and rang the changes of grounding, disconnecting and applying 12V to pins 1 and 5.

    Applying 12V to pin 8 turns the output 100% on, independent of the connections to pins 1 and 5.

    My module is missing pin 7 and reads:

    DRL-Modul

    61.35-8 368 039

    05 0660 00

    > PA 6 - GF 30 <

    Its top is imprinted with 3994
    Last edited by johnf; 08-23-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  21. #21
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    Hmmm.

    Mine has exactly the same numbers except 2708 stamped on top (which would be the week and year of manufacture) and I have an active Pin 7.

    Was your pin 7 hacked off at some point or never fitted do you think?

    Just to clarify your test result:

    Pin 4 is earthed.

    Pin 6 has 12V.

    If you apply 12V to Pin 8, then you get 100% output at pin 2.

    (independent of whether Pin 1 or Pin 5 are connected)

    Graeme

  22. #22
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    Roger that.

    My module has solid plastic where pin 7 should be.

    The 1995 BMW NA ETM shows my module, with no pin 7; the 1996 and later ETMs show yours, with a pin 7 grounding the front fog light relay.

    I tend to the notion that our modules' 3994 and 2708 are indeed week/year codes and that you have a later module with the two refinements intended for 1996+ cars: one grounding the front fog light relay with the cold high beams, and the other ignoring pin 8 until pin 5 gets power.

    It's goofy that BMW didn't change the part number. If the ETMs are accurate, my module will disable the front fog lights in later Canadian cars. I bought the module around 2001.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-23-2011 at 03:09 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quite amazing really that they did not allocate a new part number given the different modus operandi!

    Thank you once again for testing your relay again.
    Last edited by graeme86; 08-24-2011 at 03:59 AM.

  24. #24
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    Here's the DRL module wiring for 1995



    and for 1996



    As you can see, a third refinement removed the 0.35 mm^2 indicator wiring from a 30A+ circuit.
    Last edited by johnf; 08-24-2011 at 04:28 AM.

  25. #25
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    Well...it appears we have come to an interesting conclusion that there are two versions of the Canadian DRL relay 61.35-8 368 039

    -Early version with six pins: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 & 8

    Can operate high beam with appropriate inputs even without voltage at Pin 5

    -Late version with seven pins: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8

    Must have voltage at Pin 5 to activate internal electronics to allow operation of high beam (with appropriate inputs).

    Also has 12V 100% High Beam signal at extra Pin 7 to give 0 voltage potential to the Fog Light Relay coil to switch off fog lamps when high beam selected.


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