Car Broke Down - Maybe Timing Belt? HELP!

[Dan53]

I have no idea what the symptoms of a broken timing belt are, but I know it's not uncommon and feel like maybe that's what happened.

I was driving and all of a sudden I lost power. It seemed like something snapped. For a moment it sort of spun as if disconnected and then died. Knowing it may be the timing belt, I didn't want to try to start it again, but I guess I didn't really have a choice (or couldn't resist, anyway). I spun the starter just for a second to see what I could hear, and it sort of sounded like just the starter was spinning. It certainly didn't sound like the engine would normally sound when turning over. I can't say that it seemed at all as if the pistons and cylinders were in motion.

Stomp code read 1444, no errors.

Any advice? Please help!

Thanks,
Dan

[Mrmaddbrad]

Advice? Umm how about try and get to your timing belt and check if its broken? Obviously if you think it's broken, you haven't replaced it in awhile...

[moberg12]

I have no idea what the symptoms of a broken timing belt are, but I know it's not uncommon and feel like maybe that's what happened.

I was driving and all of a sudden I lost power. It seemed like something snapped. For a moment it sort of spun as if disconnected and then died. Knowing it may be the timing belt, I didn't want to try to start it again, but I guess I didn't really have a choice (or couldn't resist, anyway). I spun the starter just for a second to see what I could hear, and it sort of sounded like just the starter was spinning. It certainly didn't sound like the engine would normally sound when turning over. I can't say that it seemed at all as if the pistons and cylinders were in motion.

Stomp code read 1444, no errors.

Any advice? Please help!

Thanks,
Dan

First step is to have someone look into the head through the oil cap while you crank it over. If you don't get movement then the belt broke!! From what you described I'd bet the belt did break!!

If the belt did break than the next step is "off with her head"

[Dan53]

I was hoping for some sure way to tell if the belt is broken. Thank you for the "peak through the oil cap" tip!

Dan

[Rigmaster]

Or you can pull the distributor cap off the front of the head and see if the rotor turns when someone hits the key.

The rotor is on the end of the cam, and if the t-belt breaks, the cam won't turn at all.

[my1stE30]

.. as said above check for engine rotation at the distributor or looking into the oil filler cap

.. if no rotation, then you know what needs to be done
.. if there is engine rotation, then check for fuel pressure and check for spark; if both are gone then suspect the crankshaft position sensor (CPS) ... when the CPS dies the fuel pump relay and the spark from the DME are disabled...)

.. I recently had a CPS failure while driving on the highway ... not necessarily your issue, but it would be worth checking

[Dan53]

It's the timing belt. No movement.

My question is, is it worth fixing? I know you can damage the engine when the timing belt goes, but I don't suppose there's any way to tell if you have until after you've replaced the belt, is there? Thankfully I was barely going 5 or 10 mph when it happened, so maybe it wasn't too big a deal.

Also, how do you line the gears back up? I assume it's possible. Are there dots on the gears that you need to get in line or something?

Dan

[strad]

How fast you were going when it happened doesn't necessarily inform on damage.

The cam and the crank pulley both have TDC marks that you can line up. It is very, very likely that you've bent some valves and/or broken some rockers or even part of the head casting. Inspection will show. This is an interference engine design. It is less likely that any serious damage was done to the piston tops, although it's not impossible that lower-end damage has occurred.

[moberg12]

It's the timing belt. No movement.

My question is, is it worth fixing? I know you can damage the engine when the timing belt goes, but I don't suppose there's any way to tell if you have until after you've replaced the belt, is there? Thankfully I was barely going 5 or 10 mph when it happened, so maybe it wasn't too big a deal.

Also, how do you line the gears back up? I assume it's possible. Are there dots on the gears that you need to get in line or something?

Dan

When the belt breaks valves hit pistons, valves bend, and rocker arms break. Even with the low speed it is unlikely you didn't receive damage.

Pull the valve cover to inspect the damage. The first thing you will notice is broken rocker arms!! Then "off with her head"

[Dan53]

I guess it's unlikely, but I'll hope for the best. It didn't really make a sound, it just stopped. I guess I'll just pull the cover and take a look. You're right, it should be fairly evident.

Dan

[JAMMArob]

Just out of curiosity, when was the last time the belt was changed?

[Dan53]

Unknown. I haven't had the car very long and it was on my list of things to do. Go figure.

Okay, one rocker arm is broken. I don't see any visible damage to any of the valves. How can you tell for sure?

How easy is it to replace a rocker arm on this engine? I build vintage aircooled Volkswagen Beetle engines but that's all I'm really familiar with. I know it's a piece of cake on one of them.

Or should I just try to locate a complete head with cam and rockers in it and just do a clean swap?

Dan

[moberg12]

Unknown. I haven't had the car very long and it was on my list of things to do. Go figure.

Okay, one rocker arm is broken. I don't see any visible damage to any of the valves. How can you tell for sure?

How easy is it to replace a rocker arm on this engine? I build vintage aircooled Volkswagen Beetle engines but that's all I'm really familiar with. I know it's a piece of cake on one of them.

Or should I just try to locate a complete head with cam and rockers in it and just do a clean swap?

Dan

If you have a broken rocker you most certainly have a bent valve. Your best option now is to pull the head and either rebuild it or find a known good head have it decked and go from there.

[Dan53]

I can't seem to find any DIYs on removing the head. Do you just remove the exhaust and intake and then pull it right off?

Dan

[moberg12]

I can't seem to find any DIYs on removing the head. Do you just remove the exhaust and intake and then pull it right off?

Dan

It is easier to remove the head with the manifolds still attached!!

[Rigmaster]

I have NEVER seen one of these with a broken timing belt with NO damage. If the t-belt breaks, something will get bent or broken.


There are writeups out there, it's not a terribly hard job, but you do have to have some sort of mechanical aptitude to make it go smoothly.

If you don't have one, a Bentley manual for the E30 would be highly recommended.



Here's the quick and dirty steps I use (off the top of my head, so I might leave something out.....);

- remove exhaust from exhaust manifolds (6ea 14mm head nuts) and drop exhaust away from manifolds

-remove dist cap + plug wires, set these aside

- remove front upper timing cover, remove t-belt (if not already broken)

- remove airbox with Airflow meter and rubber intake boot from intake manifold

-remove rad hoses from thermostat housing on front of head.

- Disconnect injector wiring harness from main engine harness (connector under intake manifold in the center)

- disconnect throttle cable/cruise cable brackets (keep cables attached) from intake manifold and pull them to the side off of the manifold.

- disconnect the water hose from the back of the cyl head

- pull the valve cover off and loosen the head bolts one at a time, follow the pattern in the Bentley, then remove all bolts completely- save the washers but use new head bolts when you re-install head.

- lift the head with intake + exh manifolds attached off of the block. It's HEAVY so you might want to get help from a friend.

[strad]

It is easier to remove the head with the manifolds still attached!!

Heavier too lol! I didn't weigh it, but my guess is that the head by itself weighs about 30-40 lbs based on the way it felt when I lifted it. The exhaust manifolds are about 5 lbs each by guess, and I'd guess the intake assembly is 15-20 lbs. Definitely grab a second person to help you so you don't crash the thing into anything and damage it further.

[CL0UDN1N3]

I have NEVER seen one of these with a broken timing belt with NO damage. If the t-belt breaks, something will get bent or broken.

This is very true... I remember when I first got my e30, I took it into the local BMW dealership for an inspection, and the ONLY thing the service adviser recommended was that I change my timing belt ASAP (I had 118k at the time).

I did some research when I got home, and after seeing the potential problems that a snapped timing belt would cause (the OP's car is a perfect example), I followed his advice and had the timing belt done the next week at a local shop...

In a nutshell the M20 essentially self implodes if you let the timing belt go, it's the one thing I wouldn't **** around with on my e30.

About a year later I helped my buddy with the timing belt on his 325ix, long story short I'm REALLY glad I let the shop do mine. PITA!!!

[strad]

When I bought my cabrio five years ago, it had a known 55k miles on the timing belt. The very next morning it went into the shop for a change (bought it 700 miles from my house and didn't feel like taking a chance driving it home). That's just one of the things on an E30 that you don't mess around with.

[Dan53]

Serves me right. It was on my to-do list as I said, but I guess wasn't high enough up.

This is pretty depressing. I even thought of selling the car or parting it out because I just don't have the time or money, but you guys sort of make me feel better about it somehow. With your support and motivation, this car will see the road again soon.

I think that if I can find a new (used) head that is in decent shape with all its studs in place and that I can afford to buy it then I'll be okay. I really don't have time to go junkyard shopping and remove one myself. I don't have time for this as it is.

Thanks a lot for the details Rigmaster.

Dan

[iamgnat]

Serves me right. It was on my to-do list as I said, but I guess wasn't high enough up.

This is why everyone that posts they bought a new M20 car gets immediately told to change the TB ASAP. It's a well known and easily preventable thing. Sorry yours failed.

This is pretty depressing. I even thought of selling the car or parting it out because I just don't have the time or money, but you guys sort of make me feel better about it somehow. With your support and motivation, this car will see the road again soon.

This place is good for that. They are a big reason why I'm still trying to see mine through.

I don't have time for this as it is.

From what I gather, it's a bit involved to do it yourself but it isn't really horrible. I understand lack of time/space for this type of thing, but you should be able to do it yourself for far less than if you took it to a shop.

Good luck.

[jbshaw11]

Dan,

I just finished a head replacement, because of warping. There are many sources of guaranteed good heads. depending on how mechanically inclined you are it should take a methodical couple days. Bag and label everything you remove. Also rake pictures of plugs and sensor locations. I usually remove the manifolds and put them back on after the head. The head weighs upwards of 50 lbs. I feel that keeping it as skim as possible reduces the likelihood of damaging the new head gasket accidentally upon reinstallation.

GO FIND A BENTLEY MANUAL. This is the most important part of the head replacement. It details ever step for your job and all torque specs for reinstalling everything.