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Thread: Car running rich and rough idle

  1. #1
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    Car running rich and rough idle

    So I have replaced the plugs, rotor, rotor cap and plug wires. I still am having a problem with a shaky idle and engine running rich. I have ordered a new oxygen sensor as I read on here that controls the fuel mixture. Upon reading other posts on this forum regarding running rich they have had no solutions other than one I read that stated he replaced intake gasket and o rings on injectors. Would love some more imput if any knows about a car running lean. I will replace anything that sounds like it could be the problem as it is a 20 year old car. Any help would be great.

  2. #2
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    Some possibilities besides o2 sensor:

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1385308

    Joe M in WV

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmenacker View Post
    Some possibilities besides o2 sensor:

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1385308

    Joe M in WV
    Just another dead end thread with no solution. Seems everyone that has this problem gives up or quits posting.
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
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    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
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  4. #4
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    You are absolutely correct. This problem is so prevalent and it seems that once it starts running like this, you think you fix it then it happens again. These cars are so sensitive in running perfect that it is crazy. I have been battling this problem for 2 months now. I think I find the problem and it works for a little bit then the problem comes back again. I got fed up of trying to figure it out so I took it to a tech who works on these cars and he said to clean the injectors then the plugs and see how it runs. My car has no vac leaks, new intake gaskets, 02 sensor,fuel filter, etc,etc,etc.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusing View Post
    You are absolutely correct. This problem is so prevalent and it seems that once it starts running like this, you think you fix it then it happens again. These cars are so sensitive in running perfect that it is crazy. I have been battling this problem for 2 months now. I think I find the problem and it works for a little bit then the problem comes back again. I got fed up of trying to figure it out so I took it to a tech who works on these cars and he said to clean the injectors then the plugs and see how it runs. My car has no vac leaks, new intake gaskets, 02 sensor,fuel filter, etc,etc,etc.
    Working on all that too. O2 sensor on it's way from bav auto I will keep posting what I find. Something is making it run rich just wish someone else has actually fixed this problem. If o2 sensor does nothing I am going to take it to BMW.
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
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  6. #6
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    how do you know it is lean/rich? is it only at idle? is it all RPM's?

    unmetered air
    temp sensor
    bad computer
    bad wiring
    AFM
    condition of engine- rings, guides, valves, compression- what do the plugs look like
    conditon of ignition sys
    condition of injectors
    O2
    fuel pressure
    fuel filter


    things i would consider when the mixture is not right.
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 86 PORSCHE 930
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 88 BMW 325is 200K+
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 2000 MERCEDES E320 WAGON
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:99 GRAND CHEROKEE 160K::
    [_:_] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: mazda B2200

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=T77911S;21099986]how do you know it is lean/rich? is it only at idle? is it all RPM's?
    You can smell it and see it in the exhaust.
    New plugs
    New plug wires
    New rotor
    New rotor cap
    New fuel pump
    New fuel filter
    O2 sensor on order
    Looking for someone who has a had a similar problem. I can blindly replace everything but that's not going to tell me what is wrong.
    The PO replaced head and timing belt 8 months before I got it. I guess I could tear the whole head and intake of the car and start over but that seems a bit drastic at this point.
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
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  8. #8
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    Idle or hard starting problems are most commonly caused by intake leaks and/or
    a sticky or defective Idle Control Valve (ICV). The only reliable method of
    locating intake leaks is to have a smoke test run on the intake and crank case
    and to test the brake booster with a gage and vacuum pump. The complete list
    of possible causes of an intake leak is:

    Intake boot
    Throttle body gasket
    ICV hoses & connections
    Brake booster, hoses, and connections
    Crank case breather hose
    Evaporative control hoses, valve, and expansion tank
    Fuel pressure regulator & hose
    Injector seals
    Valve cover gaskets & bungs
    Oil filler cap
    Dip stick o-rings
    Oil return tube o-rings

    While leaks in some of those can be found by inspection or by spraying carb
    cleaner on suspect areas, not finding leaks that way doesn't eliminate the
    possibility. Only a smoke test will really work.

    Once the possibility of intake leaks is eliminated, the ICV needs to be
    removed and cleaned with carb cleaner until the vane inside moves freely. When
    the ignition is switched on you should be able to feel vibration from the
    ICV. If no vibration the ICV is bad, there's a problem with its wiring or
    connector, there's a problem with the TPS, or the DME (or Idle Control Module
    (ICM) on an ETA car) is faulty.

    For the DME (or ICM) to control idle, the idle switch in the TPS must work
    correctly. The switch should close when the throttle stop is 0.020-0.060" off
    the idle stop screw.

    The fuel system should be tested via the suite of tests in the Bentley manual
    as invalid rail pressure can be a contributor to idle and starting problems. A
    simple injector check is to pull the injectors, jumper the fuel relay to run
    the pump, and see if the injectors are leaking. You can also point the
    injectors into a towel, remove the coil wire, and crank the engine to see if
    all of the injectors appear to be spraying in a similar fashion. The best
    approach to possible injector problems is to have the injectors cleaned and
    flow tested. Since raw fuel can or will be released in these tests, have a
    fire extinguisher handy.

    The O2 sensor can be a contributor to idle problems. The O2 sensor is a
    scheduled maintenance item with a useful life of no more than 100k. If the
    sensor has that mileage or more (or is of unknown age), replace it.

    The AFM can be a contributor. If the vane doesn't move freely or the
    resistance track is worn the DME may be receiving invalid data from the
    AFM. And if someone has fiddled with the bypass air adjustment the DME may be
    unable to stabilize idle. The bypass air adjustment should only be adjusted
    per the procedure in the Bentley and with an exhaust gas analyzer. And even
    then everything else associated with engine management has to first be
    operating properly. If the AFM becomes a suspect, replacement with a good used
    unit is the best approach.

    Improperly adjusted or malfunctioning valves will affect idle and starting. As
    can compression issues from ring or cylinder wear. A valve adjustment is
    called for every 15k. A useful diagnostic is to run compression and leak down
    tests on the engine. And aged ignition wires, plugs, distributor cap, or
    rotor can cause problems. Insulation does break down with time and heat. And
    since the youngest E30 is going on 19 years old, if the ignition system is
    original or the plugs are old replacement is indicated.

    Although not usually a problem, a bad DME temp sensor is a possibility. That
    generally won't cause an unstable idle, but can cause hard cold or hard hot
    starts and/or a rough idle. As can problems with the timing reference sensors.

    When all other possibilities have been eliminated and idle or starting
    problems persist, replacement of the DME, or if applicable the ICM, is
    indicated.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    Idle or hard starting problems are most commonly caused by intake leaks and/or
    a sticky or defective Idle Control Valve (ICV). The only reliable method of
    locating intake leaks is to have a smoke test run on the intake and crank case
    and to test the brake booster with a gage and vacuum pump. The complete list
    of possible causes of an intake leak is:

    Intake boot
    Throttle body gasket
    ICV hoses & connections
    Brake booster, hoses, and connections
    Crank case breather hose
    Evaporative control hoses, valve, and expansion tank
    Fuel pressure regulator & hose
    Injector seals
    Valve cover gaskets & bungs
    Oil filler cap
    Dip stick o-rings
    Oil return tube o-rings

    While leaks in some of those can be found by inspection or by spraying carb
    cleaner on suspect areas, not finding leaks that way doesn't eliminate the
    possibility. Only a smoke test will really work.

    Once the possibility of intake leaks is eliminated, the ICV needs to be
    removed and cleaned with carb cleaner until the vane inside moves freely. When
    the ignition is switched on you should be able to feel vibration from the
    ICV. If no vibration the ICV is bad, there's a problem with its wiring or
    connector, there's a problem with the TPS, or the DME (or Idle Control Module
    (ICM) on an ETA car) is faulty.

    For the DME (or ICM) to control idle, the idle switch in the TPS must work
    correctly. The switch should close when the throttle stop is 0.020-0.060" off
    the idle stop screw.

    The fuel system should be tested via the suite of tests in the Bentley manual
    as invalid rail pressure can be a contributor to idle and starting problems. A
    simple injector check is to pull the injectors, jumper the fuel relay to run
    the pump, and see if the injectors are leaking. You can also point the
    injectors into a towel, remove the coil wire, and crank the engine to see if
    all of the injectors appear to be spraying in a similar fashion. The best
    approach to possible injector problems is to have the injectors cleaned and
    flow tested. Since raw fuel can or will be released in these tests, have a
    fire extinguisher handy.

    The O2 sensor can be a contributor to idle problems. The O2 sensor is a
    scheduled maintenance item with a useful life of no more than 100k. If the
    sensor has that mileage or more (or is of unknown age), replace it.

    The AFM can be a contributor. If the vane doesn't move freely or the
    resistance track is worn the DME may be receiving invalid data from the
    AFM. And if someone has fiddled with the bypass air adjustment the DME may be
    unable to stabilize idle. The bypass air adjustment should only be adjusted
    per the procedure in the Bentley and with an exhaust gas analyzer. And even
    then everything else associated with engine management has to first be
    operating properly. If the AFM becomes a suspect, replacement with a good used
    unit is the best approach.

    Improperly adjusted or malfunctioning valves will affect idle and starting. As
    can compression issues from ring or cylinder wear. A valve adjustment is
    called for every 15k. A useful diagnostic is to run compression and leak down
    tests on the engine. And aged ignition wires, plugs, distributor cap, or
    rotor can cause problems. Insulation does break down with time and heat. And
    since the youngest E30 is going on 19 years old, if the ignition system is
    original or the plugs are old replacement is indicated.

    Although not usually a problem, a bad DME temp sensor is a possibility. That
    generally won't cause an unstable idle, but can cause hard cold or hard hot
    starts and/or a rough idle. As can problems with the timing reference sensors.

    When all other possibilities have been eliminated and idle or starting
    problems persist, replacement of the DME, or if applicable the ICM, is
    indicated.
    I have seen this post 20 times. I need someone who has actually had this problem with some direction. I can pull the motor and rebuild it too but thats not going to help me know what was wrong. IT IS RUNNING RICH WHAT CONTROLS THE AIR FUEL MIXTURE?
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
    1996 Toyota Land Cruiser
    1990 325ic

  10. #10
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    Fair enough... The mixture is controlled by the DME. It looks at engine temperature, AFM data, O2 sensor data, and rpm to pick a pulse width for the injectors. That map data is modified by learned fuel trim based on data from the O2 sensor. For DME to control the mixture properly it needs good data and the fuel system and injectors must be operating properly.

    In many cases there won't be a single cause for a rough idle or running rich and it will be a combination of factors. For example an intake leak will cause the DME to run a richer fuel mixture as will an aged O2 sensor. A bad FPR can result in abnormal rail pressure. If the pressure is low it will drive fuel trim in the positive direction and if too high can result in excess fuel being delivered. Leaking injectors will deliver more fuel than called for but the DME. Conversely one or more injectors that aren't flowing correctly will cause the DME richen delivery to compensate, which results in some cylinders running rich. Misadjusted valves can interfere with engine breathing and cause idle misfires. A bad ECT sensor can make the DME think that the engine is running colder than it is and thus need a richer mixture. A bad AFM lies to the DME about how much air is entering the engine.

    While any one of the causes may not have a big affect, if more than one are present they can add up to become a noticeable problem. Intake leaks and fuel pressure are easily diagnosed and a new O2 sensor is easily installed. The other possibilities can be diagnosed or eliminated with a bit more work.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    Fair enough... The mixture is controlled by the DME. It looks at engine temperature, AFM data, O2 sensor data, and rpm to pick a pulse width for the injectors. That map data is modified by learned fuel trim based on data from the O2 sensor. For DME to control the mixture properly it needs good data and the fuel system and injectors must be operating properly.

    In many cases there won't be a single cause for a rough idle or running rich and it will be a combination of factors. For example an intake leak will cause the DME to run a richer fuel mixture as will an aged O2 sensor. A bad FPR can result in abnormal rail pressure. If the pressure is low it will drive fuel trim in the positive direction and if too high can result in excess fuel being delivered. Leaking injectors will deliver more fuel than called for but the DME. Conversely one or more injectors that aren't flowing correctly will cause the DME richen delivery to compensate, which results in some cylinders running rich. Misadjusted valves can interfere with engine breathing and cause idle misfires. A bad ECT sensor can make the DME think that the engine is running colder than it is and thus need a richer mixture. A bad AFM lies to the DME about how much air is entering the engine.

    While any one of the causes may not have a big affect, if more than one are present they can add up to become a noticeable problem. Intake leaks and fuel pressure are easily diagnosed and a new O2 sensor is easily installed. The other possibilities can be diagnosed or eliminated with a bit more work.
    OK I will try some of this when I get home tonight sounds plausable that some of this may be contributing. Thanks!! I will keep posting as I want to try and do 1 thing at a time O2 sensor on its way gonna start there. Should have that by Wednesday or Thursday but will check vaccume hoses as well. If I unplug the AFM and it idles the same would that be an easy way to test that?

    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    Fair enough... The mixture is controlled by the DME. It looks at engine temperature, AFM data, O2 sensor data, and rpm to pick a pulse width for the injectors. That map data is modified by learned fuel trim based on data from the O2 sensor. For DME to control the mixture properly it needs good data and the fuel system and injectors must be operating properly.

    In many cases there won't be a single cause for a rough idle or running rich and it will be a combination of factors. For example an intake leak will cause the DME to run a richer fuel mixture as will an aged O2 sensor. A bad FPR can result in abnormal rail pressure. If the pressure is low it will drive fuel trim in the positive direction and if too high can result in excess fuel being delivered. Leaking injectors will deliver more fuel than called for but the DME. Conversely one or more injectors that aren't flowing correctly will cause the DME richen delivery to compensate, which results in some cylinders running rich. Misadjusted valves can interfere with engine breathing and cause idle misfires. A bad ECT sensor can make the DME think that the engine is running colder than it is and thus need a richer mixture. A bad AFM lies to the DME about how much air is entering the engine.

    While any one of the causes may not have a big affect, if more than one are present they can add up to become a noticeable problem. Intake leaks and fuel pressure are easily diagnosed and a new O2 sensor is easily installed. The other possibilities can be diagnosed or eliminated with a bit more work.
    Also is there a special tool to pull the injectors? Thanks again.
    Last edited by ReidSFX; 01-10-2011 at 12:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
    1996 Toyota Land Cruiser
    1990 325ic

  12. #12
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    If there are intake leaks, disconnecting the AFM will probably make the engine run better. But I can't emphasize enough the importance of having a smoke test run. There are just too many places that can contribute to intake leaks that you can't identify with visual checks or by spraying carb cleaner around.

    Wet down the injector seals at the manifold with PBlaster well in advance of when you pull the injectors. Then carefully pry up on the rail. Work back and forth on the rail until the injectors come out.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    If there are intake leaks, disconnecting the AFM will probably make the engine run better. But I can't emphasize enough the importance of having a smoke test run. There are just too many places that can contribute to intake leaks that you can't identify with visual checks or by spraying carb cleaner around.

    Wet down the injector seals at the manifold with PBlaster well in advance of when you pull the injectors. Then carefully pry up on the rail. Work back and forth on the rail until the injectors come out.


    Just trying to test the AFM do i need to pull it and do some type of bench test on it? PBlaster? is this an over the counter purchase at a auto parts place?
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
    1996 Toyota Land Cruiser
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  14. #14
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    PBlaster is a penetrating oil and is available at many auto parts houses.

    It is possible to test the AFM, but the easiest way of telling whether it is the problem (which I doubt) is to swap in a known good unit.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    PBlaster is a penetrating oil and is available at many auto parts houses.

    It is possible to test the AFM, but the easiest way of telling whether it is the problem (which I doubt) is to swap in a known good unit.
    Pulled the connector on MAF car stalled
    pulled connector on Idle Air Stabilizer car stalled
    That is normal right?
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
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  16. #16
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    Both of those could be a sign of intake leaks. Disconnecting the ICV should cause the idle to rise to about 950rpm.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    Both of those could be a sign of intake leaks. Disconnecting the ICV should cause the idle to rise to about 950rpm.
    I will try that next. What is normal timing on these motor's from TDC?
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    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReidSFX View Post
    So I have replaced the plugs, rotor, rotor cap and plug wires. I still am having a problem with a shaky idle and engine running rich. I have ordered a new oxygen sensor as I read on here that controls the fuel mixture. Upon reading other posts on this forum regarding running rich they have had no solutions other than one I read that stated he replaced intake gasket and o rings on injectors. Would love some more imput if any knows about a car running lean. I will replace anything that sounds like it could be the problem as it is a 20 year old car. Any help would be great.

    see my reply on "failed smog test" thread....

    there are a number of reasons this could be... try the simplest. the coolant temp sensor, and not the one for the gauge the one that goes to the computer.
    Also on a side note getting a smog/ emissions test done would help greatly the gases emitted by the engine helps exponentially when diagnosing older OBDI cars .... just saying..

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 320iGUY View Post
    see my reply on "failed smog test" thread....

    there are a number of reasons this could be... try the simplest. the coolant temp sensor, and not the one for the gauge the one that goes to the computer.
    Also on a side note getting a smog/ emissions test done would help greatly the gases emitted by the engine helps exponentially when diagnosing older OBDI cars .... just saying..
    Only the state does smog tests here not mechanics. Not involving them till I am asked.
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    Stomp test?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by 320iGUY View Post
    see my reply on "failed smog test" thread....

    there are a number of reasons this could be... try the simplest. the coolant temp sensor, and not the one for the gauge the one that goes to the computer.
    Also on a side note getting a smog/ emissions test done would help greatly the gases emitted by the engine helps exponentially when diagnosing older OBDI cars .... just saying..
    Reading through the Bentley manual it gave me like 8 sensors to test with my ohm meter so pretty cheap and easy so I will test all of those.
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
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    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
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  22. #22
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    if the car stalled when you pulled the electrical connector on the ICV, the throttle plate could be misadjusted. (you did not remove the ICV, you just unplugged the connector, right?)

    steam clean the engine before removing the injectors. there is a lot of dirt around the injestors and you dont want it in the engine.
    when you have the injectors off, that is a good time to replace the hose from the intake to the valve cover.


    jim,
    it looks like there is an air temp sensor in the AFM, is there a way to test it? would that make a car run bad?
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 86 PORSCHE 930
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 88 BMW 325is 200K+
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: 2000 MERCEDES E320 WAGON
    [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:99 GRAND CHEROKEE 160K::
    [_:_] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING: mazda B2200

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
    if the car stalled when you pulled the electrical connector on the ICV, the throttle plate could be misadjusted. (you did not remove the ICV, you just unplugged the connector, right?)


    steam clean the engine before removing the injectors. there is a lot of dirt around the injestors and you dont want it in the engine.
    when you have the injectors off, that is a good time to replace the hose from the intake to the valve cover.


    jim,
    it looks like there is an air temp sensor in the AFM, is there a way to test it? would that make a car run bad?
    Yes just unplugged stalled right away.
    Sounds good.
    Yes I can test that.
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
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  24. #24
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    jim,
    it looks like there is an air temp sensor in the AFM, is there a way to test it? would that make a car run bad?
    Yes the IAT sensor can be checked. A bad sensor will affect how the engine runs, but intake air temperature doesn't have a large effect of engine operation.
    The car makes it possible, but the driver makes it happen.
    Jim Levie, Huntsville, AL

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thejlevie View Post
    Yes the IAT sensor can be checked. A bad sensor will affect how the engine runs, but intake air temperature doesn't have a large effect of engine operation.
    Jim, is it possable to check the timming with a light? what is proper setting (I know I can't adjust it just want to see if PO when he changed head and timming belt got the belt on correctly).
    2004 S500 4matic w/AMG body kit
    2004 Range Rover HSE
    1997 Volvo 850 GLT
    1997 Audi A4 Quattro V6
    1996 Toyota Land Cruiser
    1990 325ic

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