HELP! 540i E34 M60 Intake Manifold Replacement

[dgaletar]

Hello. I am in need of replacing the gaskets on the front (part #9) and the back (part #5) end of my intake manifold. Along with replacing these, I have also ordered (and plan to replace) the "Cover With Non-Returnvalve" (part #3).



Today I was able to speak with a mechanic who said that he was very familiar with these cars/engines. I asked him (since he only had a minute) if I needed to remove the entire intake manifold to get to these end-caps. He said that I "did not need to remove it, but that doing so would make the job a whole lot easier".

Does this sound right to anyone else? And, if so:

1. What additional parts do I need to do the additional work?
2. What additional tools do I need to do the additional work?
3. How difficult is removing and replacing the intake manifold?
4. Is there anything else I should be checking/doing while it is off of the car? (For example, I saw something in a forum that referenced "knocking valves" or something like that)

As always, ANY and ALL help is GREATLY appreciated!!!

Sincerely,

David Galetar

PS - This is, what I desperately hope to be, the final step in a long, long troubleshooting process. My car is running very poorly. (There are times that I struggle to reach a whopping 30 miles per hour going up a hill.) So far, I have:

1. Put a diagnostic computer on the car, got the code for a bad mass-air sensor, and replaced it - NO HELP
2. Continuing with the diagnostic computer, got the codes for (2) bad 02 Sensors, and replaced them both - NO HELP
3. Replaced all of the Spark Plugs (using OEM parts) - NO HELP and checked all of the wires (they were fine, and that was NO HELP)
4. Did a full service fuel injector cleaning (twice within 6 months) - NO HELP
5. Replaced the fuel filter - NO HELP

Upon the suggestion of someone who new the name of the part (which is the main qualification at this point of the process), I replaced the "Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10) on the "Secondary Throttle Housing Tube ASC" (part #1).
**NOTE - I was going to replace the entire "Secondary Throttle Housing Tube ASC" (part #1). But, I bought a "reconditioned" part off of E-bay, and mine looked in better shape. Therefore, I just removed the only electrical part on the piece ("Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10)). - THIS MADE A SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT , BUT NOT ONLY DO SOME OF THE SYMPTOMS STILL EXIST, BUT AT TIMES IT GETS AS BAD AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING.



That brings me to this point, replacing the front and back gaskets on the intake manifold. I was told that these gaskets often dry-rot and produce a very similar result.

Things that may be of interest (to a problem-solver such as yourself?!?):

• Every time the car looses power, both the "CHECK ENGINE" and the "SRS" lights come on.
• Many times, the "SRS" light will be off, and only the "CHECK ENGINE" light will be on. When this happens, the car is in-between running great and barely running at all.
• Yesterday, the day after I replaced the "Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10), it was running very well. But, as the day went on it ran worse and worse. Eventually, it got to the point where the car would not start at all... just turn over. (This has been the norm for this issue.) - FIX: When I unscrewed, lifted off, put back on and re-screwed the "Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10), it started and ran fairly well!?!

Well, that's about it. I'm sure there is more, but it's been a LONG day. Thanks again for your time with this matter!!!

[lovinlyfe4dub]

What does the car do when it runs poorly?Does it pop or the rpm fluctuates or anything like that.Im pretty sure if your intake manifold gasket is bad your rpms would just jump because unwanted air would be geting in.Im sure youve checked this but could be an extremely clogger air filter.Or an intermitently failing fuel pump or one on its last leg.But since your O2 sensors keep going bad could be clogged cats.Get back to me with more details of what it does when it looses power.


Oh and I like the kitty : )

[dgaletar]

She's my baby. A real Bitch! But my baby. (Actually, she's very similar to my 540i baby - a real PIA, but couldn't imagine not having her!)

Q: What does the car do when it runs poorly? Does it pop, or the rpm fluctuates, or anything like that?
A: All of the above. When I step on the gas, it hesitates something fierce. When I let off of the accelerator, it backfires nice and quietly - like it was chipped or something (which it's not)

I'm pretty sure if your intake manifold gasket is bad your rpm's would just jump because unwanted air would be getting in.

Q: I'm sure you've checked this, but could be an extremely clogged air filter.
A: Changed! - NO HELP

Q: Or an intermittently failing fuel pump, or one on it's last leg.
A: Hoping it's not that. Doesn't seem like that, as it is VERY random, but consistent with it's symptoms. A failing fuel pump would probably have more consistent symptoms.

Q: But since your O2 sensors keep going bad, could be clogged cats.
A: Again, VERY random, but consistent with it's symptoms. Clogged cats would probably have more consistent symptoms.

Q: Get back to me with more details of what it does when it looses power.
A: Maybe this will help - when it's at it's worst, I have to pump the gas pedal incredibly fast just to keep it from dying all together.

One last thing I want to point out is that it "seemed" like it had to do with the "traction control system". Hence the repair of the "Throttle Valve Switch". But that didn't do it.

Anyway, thanks for the input. And, if anyone can point me to a "How-to" on replacing the Intake Manifold Gasket (or the Intake Manifold itself), it would be a HUGE help!!!

Thanks again guys!

DG

[bbarronson]

I didn't see in your post any mention of the idle speed control valve. I, not long ago had very similar symtoms as you (running fine for a while then poorly, then stalling, then after a cool down running fine again) and tracked it down to the ICV. Merely took it off and cleaned inside until valve moved freely, reinstalled insuring good seal and bingo! This was after checking vacuum leaks, fuel pressure, o2 sensors, etc.--GL DG

[K Fox]

I have another question that may seem strange, but is your car an automatic or a manual? While waiting for the answer, I'll agree that you should check the ICV, but also if you're going to be replacing the 2 gaskets you mentioned in your first post, I would say that you should replace ALL of the intake manifold gaskets, as well as the PCV plate itself, as any of the gaskets will harden with age. And since you're going to be doing the work, you might as well make sure you won't need to do it again anytime soon.

On that note there are a few other preventative maintenance items to consider. Since you'll have easy access a lot of people say to change the water pump, and also to clean and reseal the valley pan. If you do the valley pan work, it's MUCH easier to replace the water pump, as on the M60 engines there are 2 lines that run through the valley that carry coolant, and sealing those up properly is apparently much easier with the valley pan off. Just a couple of points to consider.

Also, don't forget to check the entire intake track (all of the plastic tubing) from the MAF to the throttle body for cracks - any cracks there will cause similar symptoms to what you're seeing. That said, you can try finding the vacuum leaks by spraying starting fluid at the various questionable areas with the car running - if you spray an area and the idle changes you've located a vacuum leak. This will make it easier to fix, though if you plan on keeping the car long term I'd still advise changing all of the intake gaskets. Keep us updated, and good luck.

Fox

[Mr Project]

decent howto: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...d.php?t=825483

good howto: http://www.e38.org/intake/bmw740_intake.html

I agree with k fox....do all the 'problematic' upper gaskets.

[eaglecomm]

Additional info:
1. You can do it without taking off the intake manifold. Just be really.. really..... really careful about the Torx bolts holding on the front and rear intake manifold cover. They strip easily. I would buy new hex head bolts to replace them when you put it back together.
2. It is 'easier' to do these covers if you have the manifold off, but the job does become harder in total by doing all that extra work. So the 'easier access' of those 2 covers is kind of belittled by the fact you have more work to do due to taking off the intake.
3. That being said, I have always been a proponent (sp?) of going the extra steps 'while you're in there' and doing more. But then you could say.. how far should I go? Should I then also do the ventilation pipe, coolant pipe o-rings, valley pan, knock sensors, etc etc.
4. If for some reason you DO decide to go that much further (all the way to the valley pan) consider pulling the rear coolant channel instead of the water pump. Its a little easier than getting to all the crap in the front to get the WP off.
5. Another good site to show pics of the rear manifold cover coming off. As is the 7series link Mr Project above gave.. its from an E38, but the engines are almost identical: http://www.magnum1.com/BMW-740/740_P...Cover-740.html
6. And a step by step of pulling the intake (as well as going all the way down to the valley pan): http://www.magnum1.com/BMW-740/740_P...y-Pan-740.html

Good luck David.

[dgaletar]

bbarronson:

Q: I didn't see in your post any mention of the idle speed control valve. I, not long ago had very similar symptoms as you (running fine for a while then poorly, then stalling, then after a cool down running fine again) and tracked it down to the ICV. Merely took it off and cleaned inside until valve moved freely, reinstalled insuring good seal and bingo! This was after checking vacuum leaks, fuel pressure, o2 sensors, etc.
A: Nope, the "Idle Speed Control Valve" did not come up until now. Thanks, bbarronson! Now I have the "next" step if the intake manifold work does not solve the problem!!!

K Fox:

Q: I have another question that may seem strange, but is your car an automatic or a manual?
A: Automatic

Q: if you're going to be replacing the 2 gaskets you mentioned in your first post, I would say that you should replace ALL of the intake manifold gaskets
A: ALREADY ORDERED

Q: as well as the PCV plate itself
A: ISN'T THIS PART OF THE BACK COVER? IF IT IS, IT ORDERED

Q: change the water pump
A: Any idea how much a new water pump runs? I running on loose change these days!

Q: clean and reseal the valley pan
A: Re-seal with new gaskets?

Q: Also, don't forget to check the entire intake track (all of the plastic tubing) from the MAF to the throttle body for cracks - any cracks there will cause similar symptoms to what you're seeing.
A: Good idea! Thanks.

Q: Keep us updated, and good luck.
A: Thanks, and I certainly will!

As for Mr. Project... How can I thank you enough for this link!!! It is EXACTLY what I need to ward off the fears.

Q: I agree with k fox....do all the 'problematic' upper gaskets.
A: OK, but are all of the 'problematic' upper gaskets listed in his post? I just want to make sure I don't miss anything.

And, last but not least, eaglecomm, thank you also. Great points, GREATER links! As you can probably tell, I'm quite nervous about this one. I have taken on a lot of projects on my car that I probably should not have, and most of them came off without a hitch. But this one, well, you know. I'm taking apart my freekin engine!
Keep up the GREAT info, guys! The jitters are SLOWLY going away!!!

Thanks all,

DG

[eaglecomm]

One note on the valley pan:
IF you get down to the valley pan and decide to clean it/replace it/whatever, be very careful about how you go about this. Some will say you can keep your original one (its only metal after all) and just peel off the old rubber gasket, clean it and use something like 'Permatex The Right Stuff gasket maker'. This is basically a goo that you either put on the valley pan or on your block and push your valley pan down on it and then torque down your bolts. Seems like a pretty easy thing to do and could save you up to $50+ instead of buying a whole new valley pan with the seal on it already. You can't just buy the gasket so you can only buy the whole valley pan.

Now the potential problem: If ANY part of the gasket maker gets a hole/bubble in it or causes a problem during 'installation', then you will have to redo all of this at some time in the future.. costing you additional time and parts costs. Ask me how I know. I have done about 7 'down to the valley pan' services and once I tried the gasket maker goo. About 3 months later (the car is my dad's now) my dad noticed a slow coolant leak. Fast forward another month or so and we are redoing everything again to get the leak stopped. Whatever happened.. it was the valley pan gasket leaking. This is a route I will never go again. Sure, it 'could' go well and save you some money, but it 'could' not go well and you are doing the job twice. Food for thought. But don't eat it.. its poisonous.

[K Fox]

OK, the couple of questions answered. As for the water pump, check the parts sites online and see, but Autohaus has one for about $117:
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...8@Water%20Pump

This and the Valley pan are optional work, and will add a bit of cost to the project as the Valley Pan is around $80, slightly less at Atuohaus. Like we said, its "while your in there" kind of work, a good idea but not necessary unless you already know there's a problem with either of these parts. If you're running low on cash (and I know how that feels), just do the intake gaskets for now. That should clear up the running issues by getting the rubber in there replaced so it's not leaking anymore.

Also, you can check the ICV now, it's right there on the top of the engine. Try this before you tear into the intake, as it may make a huge difference and make the manifold gaskets less important. Also, you should check out the intake bellows for cracks now before the gasket job, for the same reason. If that's where your issue is it's much easier to fix than the whole intake gasket set. Start with the things you can check now while you wait for the order you made to arrive - you may get pleasantly surprised by fixing it now with less work needed.

Fox

[dgaletar]

OK, K Fox,

Suggestion: Check the ICV now, it's right there on the top of the engine
Question: I've never heard of this before. How would I go about checking it?

Suggestion: Check out the Intake Bellows for cracks now before the gasket job
Question: Where are the Intake Bellows,

A few things I would ask everyone to keep in mind:

• Every time the car looses power, both the "CHECK ENGINE" and the "SRS" lights come on.
• Many times, the "SRS" light will be off, and only the "CHECK ENGINE" light will be on. When this happens, the car is in-between running great and barely running at all.
• Yesterday, the day after I replaced the "Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10), it was running very well. But, as the day went on it ran worse and worse. Eventually, it got to the point where the car would not start at all... just turn over. (This has been the norm for this issue.) - FIX: When I unscrewed, lifted off, put back on and re-screwed the "Throttle Valve Switch" (part #10), it started and ran fairly well!?!

Thanks again everyone!

DG

[Sir Montalbon]

OK, K Fox,

Suggestion: Check the ICV now, it's right there on the top of the engine
Question: I've never heard of this before. How would I go about checking it?

The ICV is right on top of the engine near the throttle body (the un-numbered part in the top right of the diagram you posted earlier, cylindrical in shape, with an electrical connector on one end, and an inlet and outlet tube on the other). It has a little door inside that opens and closes to adjust the idle. Overtime, it can get dirty and the little door has trouble moving smoothly.

Remove the ICV (very easy) and take a look inside. It should be VERY clean in there and the little door should move back and forth easily with just a slight flick of your wrist.

Regardless of how it looks, since you have it off, go ahead and give it a good cleaning. Buy some Mass Air Flow cleaner (use this b/c it evaporates rather quickly and won't damange the electrical part of the ICV) and spray it inside the ICV all over the little door. Shake it around, use q-tips and anything else you can to clean the inside of the ICV as best you can. I spent a good 20mins just spraying, shaking, and wiping mine.

This may not solve your major problems, but it sure won't hurt. Many have found a great overall improvment in how the engine idles and accelerates by doing just this.

Good luck!

[dgaletar]

Is it just as easy to replace the ICV? Or is it like super expensive?

[Sir Montalbon]

I looked into just replacing mine, and the cheapest I could find a new one was about $270. You can try looking for one in the classifieds, but may just get one in the same condition (dirty).

Give the cleaning a shot. It doesn't take long, is cheap (about $6 for MAF cleaner), and is easy to do.

You will know you are making progress if you spray MAF cleaner in and see it come back out dirty. I kept spraying, shaking, and q-tiping until the MAF cleaner came out relatively clear, although there was still a bit of dark stuff I couldn't get off. After I was done, I could tell the little door inside moved MUCH easier than when I started. Although my car continued to idle rough (due to other issues at the time), the roughness was much more consistent -i.e. the RPMs didn't hunt and jump around as much at idle. It just idled rough at the one consistent rpm (I eventually got it idling near perfect after fixing the other issues, but I’m sure the ICV cleaning helped).

Like I said... cheap, easy, and worth a shot.

[dgaletar]

Just found it on realoem.com:

T-SHAPE IDLE REGULATING VALVE 1 13411733090 $335.12

Think I'll be cleaning it myself! Thanks Sir Montalbon! BTW, and I'm sorry if you already told me, but what did end up being the problem?

DG