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Thread: Must I remove the front clip for Timing Chain, tensioner, guides...etc? Any DIY?

  1. #1
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    Must I remove the front clip for Timing Chain, tensioner, guides...etc? Any DIY?

    So my 99 540I has a passenger side knock/tap from a loose timing chain, The chain tensioner was replaced before and fixed the problem/knock a little, now the main chain needs to come out as well as the guide since the chain is slapping and loose, so the follwoing questions:

    1. Does the front clip or radiator or any parts up front needs to be removed?
    2. Is there a timing chain kit where I can get everything?
    3. Why do I get a puff of smoke ONLY at start-up (no I dont drive the car)
    4. Does my car have vanos?
    5. Any DIY on this? I am only finding DIY on vanos seals which seams like getting to the timing chain, but not sure?

    Anything else I should know about this job?

  2. #2
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    for #2 cracnk case ventillation(located in the rear of the manifold) it is commonly refered as oil seperator but i believe it isnt the actual name.

    #4 -starting MY 8/1998 are vanos, anything previous...its non vanos.

    i would like to know about this job also. i want to tackle the oil seperator located behind the driver side timing chain. from what i read, the front clip doesnt need to be removed.

    but is there a diy for removing the front clip?

  3. #3
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    not sure what your refeering to when you say front clip. But I can tell you that getting those guides out is going to be a MAJOR job. I had to go inside and replace the oil sep, not the ccv on the intake, the oil sep inside the upper left part of the engine. EVERYTHING has to come off the front, both upper and LOWER timing covers, rad, intake etc... i would plan on at least 2 long full days to come apart and go back together. I didnt replace my guides cause they looked fine to me. The oil sep sits behind the lefthand guide, the problem is the neck is made of very thin brittle plastic and can crack over time sucking up all your oil in the process. this has to be one of the most moronic ideas i have seen. I mean if your gonna bury that thing that deep in there, at least make it metal!!

    as to the guides you would have to be super careful about that, timing requires some very specialized tooling.

    If you havent already contact Jared at EAC tuning, he helped me though a lot of this and i know they have a thread going about the guides...

    best of luck...

  4. #4
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    front clip= front bumper, radiator core support, headlights...etc

    Like when doing anything timing belt work on an Audi, all those things needs to come off, thats why im asking about BMW's but it seems like it doesnt, just radiator

    well, I have the ticking/tapping noise, my guides are bad, but how do I know if the valves are damaged, b/c if they are, then I might as well drop a new motor, right?
    Last edited by JaguarS4R; 11-12-2009 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  5. #5
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    I'm in the middle of doing that right now and no you don't have to remove the front end and the only reason I removed the radiator was to fit impact gun on the crank bolt. You gonna need some special tools if you remove the chain. If your car is a 99 model than you have VANOS which means more tools, You can get whole set up from ebay for about 450. If you done an Audi timing chain than Bmw for me was easier.

  6. #6
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    i see you're in chicago, are you doing this whole job yourself? I couldnt find the kit on ebay, I looked. Let me know, if you have the special tools, I can rent them from you or work something out

  7. #7
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    alright for starters the front clip is generally considered to include all body parts forward of the A pillars.

    Next I think you need to slow down a little and buy yourself a copy of the Bentley manual for the car before you do anything else. Then efter you have read the procedure fully and understand everything that is involved, take your car to a BMW dealer and have the noise diagnosed properly by a technician who is familiar with the car, even if it costs you a few bucks to do it. You really do not want to dig into this kind of a repair with your apparent level of knowledge without know for sure that Guides is the problem you have.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  8. #8
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    I already have, its the guides

  9. #9
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    then buy the manual before you do anything else.
    >'97 528i, 200000 miles, Hella Xenons, 17" Stilauto wheels, Vogtland Drop Springs, Dynomax Race Muffler, Homelink, 540 brake upgrade, 15mm spacers >'65 & '74 MG Midgets BFC OT Lego Club #48 Manual conversion in process!!!



  10. #10
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    all the info/diagrams/torque specs you need are contained in a program called BMW TIS.

    Here is a zip file with some screen captures relating to this job, but you'd be miles ahead to get the program for yourself so you can look at whatever you are working on at the time. I've never owned a bentley manual, TIS is by BMW, for BMW.

    first 10 clicks get the file.
    http://rapidshare.com/files/30719883...cover.zip.html
    Last edited by e39dream; 11-14-2009 at 11:41 PM.

  11. #11
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    thank you for that, now if I only I know what exactly I need, I know I need the guides, but how many? what else? What gaskets? What special tools? I cant seem to find a timing chain kit anywhere kind of how Audi has a timing belt kit which are dime a dozen

  12. #12
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    any time, any place
    PM coming.

    edit: just sent you an email, PM would not go through. Check the email you used to sign up for bimmerforums.
    Last edited by Mark@EAC; 11-15-2009 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  13. #13
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    thanks, got it, I just emailed him

    hey can you send that file again, please, thanks
    Last edited by JaguarS4R; 11-15-2009 at 03:20 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  14. #14
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    You can use the tools after I'm done with them hopefully sometime end of next week.
    I'm doing the job myself and I'm using the BMW TIS program its pretty good, special tools are listed with the insructions. There are 3 guides one tensioner there some other parts that will require replacement like the crank sprocket and crank bolt. Total cost from the dealer was a little over 300$(guides,tensioner,sprocket,bolt) shop price. I forgot to get guskets, will get them monday.I still have the disc with TIS program you can borow it if you like I live in Palatine.
    Last edited by Toms540i; 11-15-2009 at 04:45 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toms540i View Post
    You can use the tools after I'm done with them hopefully sometime end of next week.
    I'm doing the job myself and I'm using the BMW TIS program its pretty good, special tools are listed with the insructions. There are 3 guides one tensioner there some other parts that will require replacement like the crank sprocket and crank bolt. Total cost from the dealer was a little over 300$(guides,tensioner,sprocket,bolt) shop price. I forgot to get guskets, will get them monday.I still have the disc with TIS program you can borow it if you like I live in Palatine.
    email sent

  16. #16
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    Lol, I am doing this right now too. Here is a thread of my teardown, PM me if you have questions maybe I can help?

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1316839

  17. #17
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    since we'are all somewhat in the chicago/northern IN area, we should all do this together.... hehe
    Last edited by JaguarS4R; 11-16-2009 at 12:57 AM.

  18. #18
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    Lol. We can do that, plus Im in chicago most of the time anyway (Driving my nissan right now). Love that car so faithful.

    I'll PM you my number if you have any questions.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaguarS4R View Post
    So my 99 540I has a passenger side knock/tap from a loose timing chain, The chain tensioner was replaced before and fixed the problem/knock a little, now the main chain needs to come out as well as the guide since the chain is slapping and loose, so the follwoing questions:

    1. Does the front clip or radiator or any parts up front needs to be removed?
    2. Is there a timing chain kit where I can get everything?
    3. Why do I get a puff of smoke ONLY at start-up (no I dont drive the car)
    4. Does my car have vanos?
    5. Any DIY on this? I am only finding DIY on vanos seals which seams like getting to the timing chain, but not sure?

    Anything else I should know about this job?
    I've done the job. It sucks. If you can, pay somebody else to do it.

    1. Pull the radiator to give yourself room. You have to drain the coolant anyway.
    2. No. There are three guides, the big center U-shaped one, the guide the tensioner presses against, and a plastic piece on the opposite side. Do the oil separator while you're in there. I had mine break after I put it all back together and had to tear it down again. Not fun.
    3. Your oil separator is broken.
    4. as already stated, 09/98 onward are VANOS. VANOS is evil.
    5. None that I've found, just the factory procedures. The Bentley Manual DOES NOT cover the M62TU VANOS. You'll need a copy of the factory procedure to re-time the cams.

    Special tools you'll need are the cam lock blocks, the crank lock pin, and the VANOS timing tools. You will also need a HUGE breaker bar with a cheater pipe over the handle and a friend to loosen the crank bolt. It's torqued on well past 900ft-lbs.

    After you get it back together, you have to re-time the VANOS (if you have it), then clear the adaptations in the computer, or you'll throw codes and it'll run like crap after you start it. The computer adapts the cam timing to compensate for the chain slack. By getting rid of the slack, you're going to advance the cams, and that's going to cause issues if you don't set everything back to zero.
    Andrew Scott
    1999 BMW 540i/6
    1987 Buick Grand National
    1970 Datsun 240z

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascott View Post

    After you get it back together, you have to re-time the VANOS (if you have it), then clear the adaptations in the computer, or you'll throw codes and it'll run like crap after you start it. The computer adapts the cam timing to compensate for the chain slack. By getting rid of the slack, you're going to advance the cams, and that's going to cause issues if you don't set everything back to zero.
    ill be jumping in the oil seperator when the waether gets warm.

    inregards of your last statment...chaning the timing chain tensioner, i dont need to reset the ecu, correct?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascott View Post
    I've done the job. It sucks. If you can, pay somebody else to do it.

    1. Pull the radiator to give yourself room. You have to drain the coolant anyway.
    2. No. There are three guides, the big center U-shaped one, the guide the tensioner presses against, and a plastic piece on the opposite side. Do the oil separator while you're in there. I had mine break after I put it all back together and had to tear it down again. Not fun.
    3. Your oil separator is broken.
    4. as already stated, 09/98 onward are VANOS. VANOS is evil.
    5. None that I've found, just the factory procedures. The Bentley Manual DOES NOT cover the M62TU VANOS. You'll need a copy of the factory procedure to re-time the cams.

    Special tools you'll need are the cam lock blocks, the crank lock pin, and the VANOS timing tools. You will also need a HUGE breaker bar with a cheater pipe over the handle and a friend to loosen the crank bolt. It's torqued on well past 900ft-lbs.

    After you get it back together, you have to re-time the VANOS (if you have it), then clear the adaptations in the computer, or you'll throw codes and it'll run like crap after you start it. The computer adapts the cam timing to compensate for the chain slack. By getting rid of the slack, you're going to advance the cams, and that's going to cause issues if you don't set everything back to zero.

    How do I clear the adaptations in the computer and is it just for VANOS?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartjay28 View Post
    ill be jumping in the oil seperator when the waether gets warm.

    inregards of your last statment...chaning the timing chain tensioner, i dont need to reset the ecu, correct?
    If your rails are intact, replacing the tensioner probably won't move the timing enough to freak out the computer.

    How do I clear the adaptations in the computer and is it just for VANOS?
    The only way to be sure is to have a GT1, CarSoft, AutoLogic, or some other tool that can talk to the DME and clear the adaptations. Some say you can just disconnect the battery, but I tried that, and the adaptations remained until I got the car to a shop and they reset them for me.

    And yes, it's most relevant on the VANOS equipped engines. The Non-VANOS could have an issue, too, though. The DME knows where the crank is and the cams independently, so there could be some adaptation going on there with the ignition timing, though it isn't anywhere near as extensive as on the VANOS equipped cars.

    I'm a big DIY guy. Huge. I have a 1970 240Z with a 200+ horsepower 2.8L inline 6 that I built myself, and my truck has a junkyard motor I rehabbed for $300 that now puts nearly 400 lb-ft to the ground. I know my way around an engine. I know how to re-time a conventional OHC unit.

    But I did this chain guide job, and I'll never do it again. Larinah's car has been down at least a month judging by his thread. Mine was down for a week, and then it had to go to a shop for another week to have the VANOS properly retimed and the adaptations cleared after I got it together and it threw a bunch of codes and ran like crap because the cams were suddenly advanced 20 degrees.

    With a non-VANOS car, I think the timing most likely wouldn't be an issue. Get the engine at TDC, put the lock pin in, and lock the cams with the blocks and go to town. But if you have VANOS, you cannot do this job and end up with a properly running car without re-timing the VANOS and clearing the adaptations.
    Andrew Scott
    1999 BMW 540i/6
    1987 Buick Grand National
    1970 Datsun 240z

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascott View Post
    If your rails are intact, replacing the tensioner probably won't move the timing enough to freak out the computer.
    .
    thats what i figured. the damn clicking noise wont go away! (pretty sure its not my guide rail)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascott View Post
    But if you have VANOS, you cannot do this job and end up with a properly running car without re-timing the VANOS and clearing the adaptations.
    why wouldnt I be able to replace everything including chain, guides... etc and then when im done, just take it to the dealer and have them reset the adaptions and program whatever needs to be done, set timing? I have an independent BMW shop too in the area

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaguarS4R View Post
    why wouldnt I be able to replace everything including chain, guides... etc and then when im done, just take it to the dealer and have them reset the adaptions and program whatever needs to be done, set timing? I have an independent BMW shop too in the area
    Because they have to tear the engine down far enough to remove the upper timing covers to do the re-time. That's nearly 8 hours of labor by itself, plus if it ends up like mine did, it'll be so far off it will run like crap and you'll have to have it towed to the repair shop.

    You could replace the guides and then only put it together up to the upper timing covers, and then tow it over, but my money would be on the shop demanding they tear it all the way back down again to check your work. At that point, the time you've invested in replacing a bunch of crap yourself becomes instantly wasted.

    And don't take it to the dealer. They know nothing about fixing these cars because they only work on cars that are still under warranty, and this stuff doesn't break under warranty. They can replace interior trim, change oil, and rotate tires. The quality BMW mechanics that can actually tear these things apart with authority all left the dealers about ten years ago and opened their own shops.

    That's the thing with this job. It's difficult, and if you screw it up, you'll still have to take it somewhere and pay them to tear it all the way down again. You're likely going to be out the $1500-$2000 for the repair no matter what you do. You can do it yourself and waste $300 in parts and a week of your time, get it all together only to see you screwed something up (it's very easy to accidentally skip the chain a sprocket at the crank side when you're putting the tensioner back on, or getting sloppy putting the lower timing cover back on and getting a HUGE oil leak), THEN still pay a mechanic $1500 to clean up your mess, or you can just take it to an experienced mechanic, give them the $1500, and be guaranteed of eventually getting a working car back.

    As I said, I'm a huge DIY person, but I learned the hard way that this particular job is best done by a pro. Not because it's beyond my ability, but because it takes too much time and even if you do it all right, you still have to take it somewhere to have the VANOS retimed and the adaptations set. PLUS, anytime you show up at a shop with a half-job, you go off book and right into actual time.

    How does that hurt? The timing chain replacement (the procedure is the same, whether you change the actual chain or not) for the M62TU is technically a 23 hour book job. A shop is obligated to charge you no more than 23 hours of labor plus parts to complete it. Most good mechanics seem to be able to do it in about 14 hours. If they're on the up and up, the shop will probably actually charge you for 14-16 hours instead of 23. If they screw something up and have to tear it all down again, they won't charge you for their mistake. The book rate limits them to 23 hours.

    Bring in a half-done job, and the book goes out the window. They'll charge you straight time to disassemble and diagnose, then actual time for reassembly. If they screw up the reassembly and have to tear it back down again, they can charge you for that time, too. Plus, since you brought in a mess, they won't necessarily warranty all of their work. It'll be too easy to blame a future problem on something you did.

    The risk is just too high to do this myself again.
    Last edited by ascott; 11-16-2009 at 02:28 PM.
    Andrew Scott
    1999 BMW 540i/6
    1987 Buick Grand National
    1970 Datsun 240z

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