Not getting answers from anywhere else so I'll try here. Anyone know if the Mini is allowed in GTS? I assumed it was but someone brought up the point that dynos are all requested in RWHP. Is this just a term misuse?

Not getting answers from anywhere else so I'll try here. Anyone know if the Mini is allowed in GTS? I assumed it was but someone brought up the point that dynos are all requested in RWHP. Is this just a term misuse?

When we ran our JP car with NASA'a GTS class last October, there was a MINI S in GTS as well. So, dyno your ride and classify accordingly.

Christopher

There are couple running with NASA out here. One very successfully I might add.

K

Don't think so.
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20587&p=136935&hilit=mini#p136935

Don't think so.
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20587&p=136935&hilit=mini#p136935



They are confusing Mini with MINI. Minis were built in England, as part of the BMC. MINI, however, has no relation the British cars of the past. All MINIs have BMW part #s and are considered German-made vehicles, thus 100% GTS legal.

Christopher

I don't think they are confused at all, the reference wasn't in regards to a 'classic neon', so I'd think he is talking about the modern mini.

But the national coordinator would be the one to know whats legal or not, who is the guy posting in that link.

I don't think they are confused at all, the reference wasn't in regards to a 'classic neon', so I'd think he is talking about the modern mini.

But the national coordinator would be the one to know whats legal or not, who is the guy posting in that link.

I don't get it. A comparison between MINI and Chrysler/Dodge is irrelevant. One is a German brand, made with German parts. The other is not. :dunno

Christopher

I'm not agreeing with or disagreeing with the comparison, just saying how I read his post.

But I saw the OPs post on the nasa forum already, so he'll get the correct answer there, just might take a couple days.

I'm not agreeing with or disagreeing with the comparison, just saying how I read his post.

But I saw the OPs post on the nasa forum already, so he'll get the correct answer there, just might take a couple days.

:thumbup:

Christopher

So be it. As far as I'm concerned then being that Minis are already out there in GTS then this means that they are allowed.
I don't see that NASA thread being very accurate. Of the cars listed in the first post, the BMW Mini is the ONLY one that is a German car. All others are not.
Where does the Neon have German parts? I was only aware that the connection might be that both the BMW Mini motor and the Neon are built in the same factory. There are in no way interchangeable though.
I'll follow up with those that know and report back here. .

If Mini is a German brand, it's a GTS car. Period. Chrysler aint a German brand no matter who owns the corp.

Last i checked, mini is not manufactured in germany but made by bmw in oxford, uk.

Last i checked, mini is not manufactured in germany but made by bmw in oxford, uk.
Right, but NASA wouldn't ban a Z4 from GTS because it was built in the US. The key is manufactured by BMW.

-tammer

Right, but NASA wouldn't ban a Z4 from GTS because it was built in the US. The key is manufactured by BMW.

-tammer

agree. just being clear.

The previous generation MINI and the Neon have something in common: the MINI has a Neon engine. Yup. The BMW-made MINI ran on a arch-rival Daimler-Chrysler motor.

If Mini is a German brand, it's a GTS car. Period. Chrysler aint a German brand no matter who owns the corp.

IF is the real question. Sure, it's under BMW Group. But can I race a bugatti because Audi owns them? How about a Bentley or Lamborghini?

So, any car built under DaimlerChrysler AG should be good to go too I guess...

Edit: I'm not saying the Mini should or shouldn't be allowed, I just think you'd have to be consistent and make a CLEAR rule (which I don't think would be easy). It's fairly clear that the series is NOT trying to become a European Touring Series.

new minis are allowed.

new minis are allowed.
Thanks you for the straight answer. :)

no problem. looking forward to seeing you out there.

Last i checked, mini is not manufactured in germany but made by bmw in oxford, uk.

z4's are made in south carolina. that make them american?

Thanks you for the straight answer. :)

The straight answer has to come from Mark Barr and seeing as he already said no on that thread I'm not sure you're going to like his answer. I take it he's the person that hasn't emailed you back? That others are out there perhaps means he's not aware of it. They may get booted from the series, IDK.

NASA was at Mid-Ohio this weekend and Mark is usually there so you may get your answer on Monday.

BTW they were running a 3-hour enduro. :redspot We stuck around to help Simon H. and Carlton G. (Spec E30) but Carlton's battery went kaplooey right around the time Simon was getting in. :(

Fall Line had the wicked E46 w/the M5 engine running in the race with what sounded like a sequential transmission. I was curious if it had traction control as I heard it sputtering a few times. A VW R32 was actually chasing it down at one point. The conditions were right for an AWD car though (meaning crappy drizzle that was on/off and it got colder as the race went on).

Carlos.

Jesus, i hope we don't have to start arguing about what constitutes a German chassis (the rules specify Chassis). I say if an argument can be made then let him race. Are there too many GTS cars out there? No. Its a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

I also think its funny that people balk at the idea of the crossfire running in GTS. Are people scared that the sanctity of the class will be ruined by the countless race prepped crossfires that have just been waiting for a class to run in? Come on. Is the chassis german? Well i'm pretty sure the chassis is the same as the SLK. I don't think anyone has a problem with the SLK running in GTS. The motor in the crossfire is straight from Merc. right? Well if it is then those two things make it more German then some of the cars that run in GTS now.

People are getting too caught up in marketing and brand identity. Is NASA worried about class confusion for uneducated spectators? I hope i'm there in the stands when little Billy asks his dad why there is a MINI in Thunder group when it should be in lighting as it passes a 1989 Camaro down the back straight. :rofl: "Well Billy, they kicked him out of lightning because he lapped the whole field 5 times in 30 min."

Yo onasled, i think to technically run in GTS you are going to have to switch your engine to the new BMW turbo unit because the one in your car is a Chrysler motor. Unfortunately you don't qualify for American Iron either because the motor is actually produced in Brazil. Haha :D

IF is the real question. Sure, it's under BMW Group. But can I race a bugatti because Audi owns them? How about a Bentley or Lamborghini?

So, any car built under DaimlerChrysler AG should be good to go too I guess...

Edit: I'm not saying the Mini should or shouldn't be allowed, I just think you'd have to be consistent and make a CLEAR rule (which I don't think would be easy). It's fairly clear that the series is NOT trying to become a European Touring Series.

The answer is yes if the chassis is German. Now what qualifies as German? I don't know.

The answer is yes if the chassis is German. Now what qualifies as German? I don't know.

Well, uh, that's my point.

Clearly the MINI is a 'british' brand, but it's owned by a germany company. So does it count? If the MINI races in GTS, can I bring a Veyron with 8,000 lbs of ballast? The rules aren't clear, because it's never been pushed much. But it sounds like a clarification has been made in the past (but the NASAforums didn't have a GTS specific forum back then, so it's hard to track).

The rules evolve, look at non-marque engine swaps are no longer being allowed. Seems like allowing the new MINI might be possible if that's what the majority wants, if it isn't already allowed.

Just curious, but why not just run in PT if the class exists in your region?

Well, uh, that's my point.

Clearly the MINI is a 'british' brand, but it's owned by a germany company. So does it count? If the MINI races in GTS, can I bring a Veyron with 8,000 lbs of ballast? The rules aren't clear, because it's never been pushed much. But it sounds like a clarification has been made in the past (but the NASAforums didn't have a GTS specific forum back then, so it's hard to track).

The rules evolve, look at non-marque engine swaps are no longer being allowed. Seems like allowing the new MINI might be possible if that's what the majority wants, if it isn't already allowed.

Just curious, but why not just run in PT if the class exists in your region?
I think a useful distinction is that the Mini, while a British heritage brand and British built, was designed and built (chassis) by BMW. The Neon that was used as the counter-example, on the other hand, was designed and built by Chrysler, which was owned by Daimler but operated fairly independently.

So I'll be petitioning to campaign my Rolls Royce Phantom in GTS next year. Stay tuned.

-tammer

A VW R32 was actually chasing it down at one point. The conditions were right for an AWD car though (meaning crappy drizzle that was on/off and it got colder as the race went on).

Carlos.

That's not an R32, it's a standard GTI (FWD). As they say, "the driver is highly modified."

Yo onasled, i think to technically run in GTS you are going to have to switch your engine to the new BMW turbo unit because the one in your car is a Chrysler motor. Unfortunately you don't qualify for American Iron either because the motor is actually produced in Brazil. Haha :D

As I recall, the motor project was a joint venture, not one in which BMW was the customer.

I'm not sure why this hasn't already come up but here it is:

2008 GTS Challenge Series Rules
November 13, 2007 v4

Section 3.0
Eligibility and Classification

"Any sedan or coupe from any German manufacturer - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Merkur or Volkswagen - that has been modified to meet all N.A.S.A. Club Codes and Saftey Regulations, and having a N.A.S.A. issued log book is eligible for GTS Challenge Competition."

So, it seems to be pretty clear and in black and white. Nothing to do with engine origin, chassis origin or parent company. YES you can run GTS Challenge Series! If you can convince the rules committee that your Neon was made by a German manufacturer then you can run GTS Challenge as well.

The fact that the classes are further broken down via power-to-weight ratio and those numbers are in RWHP is an oversight or just a general term. Volkwagen is included and they have mostly FWD cars.

Now, I have to correct my first post. The two Mini's that are dominating out here are classed in Performance Touring vs. GTS Challenge. I'm going to have to investigate further as I thought my Spec E36 would have been classed in GT2 - GTS Challenge. More to follow once I have investigated.

Go kick ass dude and represent the Brand well! Like it or not gang Mini's are BMW!:)

K
(Former MCS owner)

Like it or not gang Mini's are BMW!:)

K
(Former MCS owner)

See, there you go confusing people. MINIs are BMW. Minis are BMC econo-boxes.

:stickoutt

Christopher

I think a useful distinction is that the Mini, while a British heritage brand and British built, was designed and built (chassis) by BMW. The Neon that was used as the counter-example, on the other hand, was designed and built by Chrysler, which was owned by Daimler but operated fairly independently.

So I'll be petitioning to campaign my Rolls Royce Phantom in GTS next year. Stay tuned.

-tammer

But how do you draw the line? Is it by the % of engineers who are native germans? Or by marketing efforts of the company?

I'm not sure why this hasn't already come up but here it is:

2008 GTS Challenge Series Rules
November 13, 2007 v4

Section 3.0
Eligibility and Classification

"Any sedan or coupe from any German manufacturer - Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Merkur or Volkswagen - that has been modified to meet all N.A.S.A. Club Codes and Saftey Regulations, and having a N.A.S.A. issued log book is eligible for GTS Challenge Competition."

So, it seems to be pretty clear and in black and white. Nothing to do with engine origin, chassis origin or parent company. YES you can run GTS Challenge Series! If you can convince the rules committee that your Neon was made by a German manufacturer then you can run GTS Challenge as well.

The fact that the classes are further broken down via power-to-weight ratio and those numbers are in RWHP is an oversight or just a general term. Volkwagen is included and they have mostly FWD cars.

Now, I have to correct my first post. The two Mini's that are dominating out here are classed in Performance Touring vs. GTS Challenge. I'm going to have to investigate further as I thought my Spec E36 would have been classed in GT2 - GTS Challenge. More to follow once I have investigated.

Go kick ass dude and represent the Brand well! Like it or not gang Mini's are BMW!:)

K
(Former MCS owner)

oh great they clarified. well never mind then. I still think mini's should run though. Everything about that car feels like a BMW and for obvious reasons.

As I recall, the motor project was a joint venture, not one in which BMW was the customer.

I'm not actually sure on that one. I have just heard a bunch of things. I know one thing though. It sure as hell looks like a mopar piece.

So I'll be petitioning to campaign my Rolls Royce Phantom in GTS next year. Stay tuned.

-tammer

If you take out the leather/wood interior and remove the paint you got yourself a 100% German car. :stickoutt

^-- ex-RR manufacturing engineering intern

P.S. To be honest though you might wanna pick up the new coupe coming out this summer.....it's just a tad bit more sporty.