We were testing the juice box units and the and the split second unit on our dyno to get some numbers on The boss of my companies car. Well, he noticed that the trannywas making a slight noise in first. So he took it to the dealer to get it checked out (take note this car is a lease) and he did not remove the juice box. He got a call the next day saying his drivetrain warranty is voided. Im sure that isnt good on a lease.

So, you're now looking for a job???

So, you're now looking for a job???
nope,,,his fault. not mine what i cant believe is how fast they found it. I heard BMW is cracking down hardcore on mods

nope,,,his fault. not mine what i cant believe is how fast they found it. I heard BMW is cracking down hardcore on mods

Luckily, I have a friend at the service center and he did point out that they are now looking for tuners, even if the vehicle is brought in for something minor. You really can't be too safe and Terry's product is absolutely first rate, but after he saw mine, he "recommended" it be removed.

I'm not sure what they do when they void a warranty on a leased car. I wonder if they can force a purchase or a fine?

Always a good idea to remove any tuner before warranty repairs. If you're going in for an oil change, just undo the bypass.

Just pull it off, and take it to another dealer.

I'm not sure what they do when they void a warranty on a leased car. I wonder if they can force a purchase or a fine?

Could they really force a purchase for something like this?

Just pull it off, and take it to another dealer.
Good try but two problems:

A) That's called "fraud"

B) It's denoted in DCS and any BMW Center will be able to see the warranty is voided on this car.

I call "no joy"...someone may have told your boss that his warranty is voided, but that does not make it a fact. There is no way in hell BMW can void the warranty on the transmission for the installation of a Juicebox...they would have to prove, without doubt, that the transmission problem is a direct result of the installation and use of the Juicebox...and that just can't be done.

If your boss takes this as gospil he's not a very good businessman and you should probably start looking for a different job anyway...something with better and stronger leadership.

Good try but two problems:

A) That's called "fraud"

B) It's denoted in DCS and any BMW Center will be able to see the warranty is voided on this car.

Owned.. lol

BMW can and will void the drivetrain warrantly if you mod the drive train to increase HP. You can fight them but you will spend a fortune doing it. Once you mod the drivetrain for more power its not their design anymore. Its now yours and you are responsible. I have modded lots of cars. You pay your money and you take your chances. Most tuners do a very good job on getting more HP. Most with the possible exception of Dinan do a very poor job of testing for and assuring long term reliability.
On the lease subject it really makes no difference. If the car has a problem the owner will have to repair it at his expense just as if he owned the car.

BMW can and will void the drivetrain warrantly if you mod the drive train to increase HP. You can fight them but you will spend a fortune doing it. Once you mod the drivetrain for more power its not their design anymore. Its now yours and you are responsible. I have modded lots of cars. You pay your money and you take your chances. Most tuners do a very good job on getting more HP. Most with the possible exception of Dinan do a very poor job of testing for and assuring long term reliability.
On the lease subject it really makes no difference. If the car has a problem the owner will have to repair it at his expense just as if he owned the car.
I agree, if someone doesn't understand or believe the above, they have no business tuning. When you go for aftermarket tune or parts, you take your chances with BMW warranty. And would you blame BMW? Would Apple cover your Airbook under warranty if you were to open it up and replace the graphics card or even the RAM? The manufacturers provide the warranty on what they test, if you change things although it may not have caused the problem you can't expect BMW to have to absorb the cost or have to prove that you mod caused the issue. It all comes down to their judgment or to good will. I am not saying no one should mod, heck that would put many people out of business, but if you mod, you have to understand the risks and not go crying foul when denied warranty.

It is too bad for your boss, But I don't understand why people mod cars while they are still under warranty??!! If you want to soup up a car then buy the older model and play. If your ego needs a faster 335, then get a vette or an RS4, or a MB or a plethora of other cars.

Drive the CRAP out of your cars while under warranty, then upgrade after expiration.
My poor little E90 330i is on its 3rd set of brakes w/ 34k miles. 3rd set of tires, 2nd water pump. Only thing not covered by warranty was the tires. Other than the water pump the car has been perfect, and it failed at 4k miles, so was defective to begin with.

Brake pads are from twisties, and have never seen "blue" rotors or had a complaint from stealership about excessive brake wear.

BMW has been good to me so far.

I call "no joy"...someone may have told your boss that his warranty is voided, but that does not make it a fact. There is no way in hell BMW can void the warranty on the transmission for the installation of a Juicebox...they would have to prove, without doubt, that the transmission problem is a direct result of the installation and use of the Juicebox...and that just can't be done.

If your boss takes this as gospil he's not a very good businessman and you should probably start looking for a different job anyway...something with better and stronger leadership.

I call no brains. No way in hell? Maybe so, but in the real world (as opposed to the world of myths) powertrain modification = no more powertrain warranty. Fact. They don't have to prove anythign, only demonstrate evidence that your car was "tuned." Then the burden is on you, to prove that your "mod" didn't "ruin" the car.

I call no brains. No way in hell? Maybe so, but in the real world (as opposed to the world of myths) powertrain modification = no more powertrain warranty. Fact. They don't have to prove anythign, only demonstrate evidence that your car was "tuned." Then the burden is on you, to prove that your "mod" didn't "ruin" the car.

It's apparent you're not too familiar with law...not sure if you're from The United States or not, but in this country, the laws are in place to protect the consumer...not the other way around. A first year law student could handle this case, for that matter a person willing to read a little bit on past cases could win this one...you wouldn't even be arguing anything about this case, you would present past cases to the judge proving your case.

Any first year law student would know that the warranty and lease agreements specifically state that any modifications will result in denied warranty claims (not covered: damage due to misuse, negligence, alteration, accident, or fire). It's right there in the owner's manual.

Any first year law student would know that the warranty and lease agreements specifically state that any modifications will result in denied warranty claims (not covered: damage due to misuse, negligence, alteration, accident, or fire). It's right there in the owner's manual.

And on the sticker on the windshield.

I still wonder with the lease though. I would think BMW would have the right to depreciate the vehicle further due to the fact that no warranty on the car means no CPO.

Mr. Offshore is correct though. The burden of proof is actually, by law, on the dealership to prove the modification caused the problem. Depending on the failure it is pretty easy to prove that the car was modified beyond its designed perameters.

Why in the world would someone not remove the JB before service??? :eyecrazy

Why in the world would someone not remove the JB before service??? :eyecrazy

The only time I can see is if the car broke down and bmw assist had it towed to a dealership and there was no time. I didn't remove it for an oil change and for some reason, they snooped, but I've known the tech for quite some time, so he was mum on it. That was my final straw, can't throw money away on issues not covered by warranty.

Mr. Offshore is correct though. The burden of proof is actually, by law, on the dealership to prove the modification caused the problem. Depending on the failure it is pretty easy to prove that the car was modified beyond its designed perameters.

In a non-criminal case, as this would be, BMW just needs to prove to 50.1% that there's a likelihood the mod caused the problem. There is no 'reasonable doubt' in a non-criminal case. You can fight it all you want, but it would be pretty easy for BMW to convince a jury of random people who likely know NOTHING about cars that the mod COULD HAVE, or PROBABLY caused the problem, and that's all they need to prove.

In a non-criminal case, as this would be, BMW just needs to prove to 50.1% that there's a likelihood the mod caused the problem. There is no 'reasonable doubt' in a non-criminal case. You can fight it all you want, but it would be pretty easy for BMW to convince a jury of random people who likely know NOTHING about cars that the mod COULD HAVE, or PROBABLY caused the problem, and that's all they need to prove.

Hello "SanDiegoBuff":

Looking up the Limitations of the Magnuson-Moss Act:

"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."


OK, I can name a bunch of lawyers who could drive a Ford Pinto through that loop hole.

I can understand why BMW would void the warranty on the tranny because more power was applied to it. BUT dinan does not void BMW warranty, thus the tranny can handle it so I believe it should be covered, IMO.

I can understand why BMW would void the warranty on the tranny because more power was applied to it. BUT dinan does not void BMW warranty, thus the tranny can handle it so I believe it should be covered, IMO.
This is a far too common misconception.

Dinan equipment DOES void the BMW warranty on the applicable components. The BMW warranty is replaced by a Dinan warranty on those components.

Hello "SanDiegoBuff":

Looking up the Limitations of the Magnuson-Moss Act:

"The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."


OK, I can name a bunch of lawyers who could drive a Ford Pinto through that loop hole.


Sure, if it's worth it to you to pay for the lawyer. Anytime you work in that kind of case though, you've gotta go to the lowest common denominator on the jury, and at best, it's a 50/50 shot going either way. Being so open ended, a good lawyer could drive a car through the loophole, but BMW's lawyers really don't have to prove anything either. A monkey could convince 12 jurors that flooring your car off the line at every red light is unreasonable use.

Mr. Offshore is correct though. The burden of proof is actually, by law, on the dealership to prove the modification caused the problem. Depending on the failure it is pretty easy to prove that the car was modified beyond its designed perameters.

Totally wrong! Where has your extensive knowledge come from ? How about you mr. offshore?

The dealership only has to say that the customer has voided the warranty by making modifications to the system. Then they document the evidence, and void your warranty claim for the repair. You will NEVER get a nickel from them -- unless you PROVE that the damage was caused by OEM equipment and not your mod. Good luck!

Rather than attacking me as ignorant, or questioning what country I am from, or talking down to me, do some research yourself. You are completely wrong. Anyone who thinks that they can put a turbo tuner or an ECU that is not OEM onto their car, and that the burden of proof is on BMW to prove that your aftermarket component caused the failure, is seriously mistaken.

It is apparent that we are in dangerous territory with this thread. There is so much conflicting info out there! However it is obvious that some of the posters to this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. BMW will void warranty claims for anything they perceive as not tolerated by the system. A short list: aftermarket headlight (or any other light) bulbs; Radar detectors; turbo tuners; Ecu tuners; short shift kits; and on and on and on.

The confusion lies here: if BMW is repairing your suspension, they cannot claim that the damage was due to interference from your Radar Detector's IR signature. However, if they are investigating your stereo's problems, and decide that the reason your radio has no reception and your bluetooth is acting up is because your radar detector is emitting an infrared pulse that disturbs the electronics in your cabin, they will void the warranty claim for the potential repair work. Also, if you use a turbo tuner to get more HP, and you go to the dealership because your trunk rattles, they will likely fix the trunk locking mechanism on warranty. If you have an aftermarket exhaust that adds vibration to the car, the same repair will likely not be covered.

In any instance where a warranty claim is denied, your first recourse is to appeal to BMW NA withor without the help of your SA. Soemtimes, there is some leeway...ie they take sympathy on you and say that they will cover half the cost or will give the parts for free. Good luck!

Just some food for thought. You should learn what you are taling about before you shoot your mouth off. I have learned this lesson the hard way -- By modifying my car and having warranty claims voided. I find no solace in the fact that I could pay thousands of dollars to a lawyer to rip off bmw. And that is exactly what you are doing when you claim a repair on your warranty because of a modification that ruined your car. That drives up the cost for everyone. And if you want to fight it, great! Spend multiple thousands on a lawyer, wade through the justice system for a while, and pay for the repairs out of pocket until you have reached a conclusion with the court and BMW. Not for me.

It is true, but the money you'd spend with a lawyer to get that to be proved isn't worth it.


Buy the Dinan upgrade and you have a warranty :)

Totally wrong! Where has your extensive knowledge come from ? How about you mr. offshore?

The dealership only has to say that the customer has voided the warranty by making modifications to the system. Then they document the evidence, and void your warranty claim for the repair. You will NEVER get a nickel from them -- unless you PROVE that the damage was caused by OEM equipment and not your mod. Good luck!


Rather than attacking me as ignorant, or questioning what country I am from, or talking down to me, do some research yourself. You are completely wrong. Anyone who thinks that they can put a turbo tuner or an ECU that is not OEM onto their car, and that the burden of proof is on BMW to prove that your aftermarket component caused the failure, is seriously mistaken.

It is apparent that we are in dangerous territory with this thread. There is so much conflicting info out there! However it is obvious that some of the posters to this thread have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. BMW will void warranty claims for anything they perceive as not tolerated by the system. A short list: aftermarket headlight (or any other light) bulbs; Radar detectors; turbo tuners; Ecu tuners; short shift kits; and on and on and on.

The confusion lies here: if BMW is repairing your suspension, they cannot claim that the damage was due to interference from your Radar Detector's IR signature. However, if they are investigating your stereo's problems, and decide that the reason your radio has no reception and your bluetooth is acting up is because your radar detector is emitting an infrared pulse that disturbs the electronics in your cabin, they will void the warranty claim for the potential repair work. Also, if you use a turbo tuner to get more HP, and you go to the dealership because your trunk rattles, they will likely fix the trunk locking mechanism on warranty. If you have an aftermarket exhaust that adds vibration to the car, the same repair will likely not be covered.

In any instance where a warranty claim is denied, your first recourse is to appeal to BMW NA withor without the help of your SA. Soemtimes, there is some leeway...ie they take sympathy on you and say that they will cover half the cost or will give the parts for free. Good luck!

Just some food for thought. You should learn what you are taling about before you shoot your mouth off. I have learned this lesson the hard way -- By modifying my car and having warranty claims voided. I find no solace in the fact that I could pay thousands of dollars to a lawyer to rip off bmw. And that is exactly what you are doing when you claim a repair on your warranty because of a modification that ruined your car. That drives up the cost for everyone. And if you want to fight it, great! Spend multiple thousands on a lawyer, wade through the justice system for a while, and pay for the repairs out of pocket until you have reached a conclusion with the court and BMW. Not for me.

Lighten up Francis!

You quote me and state that I attack you? At the very least quote the person that attacked you. My knowledge comes from researching the Magnussen-Moss Act. Why don't you give that a try before you spout off offending people yourself.

The law states the burden of proof is on the dealership. Now I know that law is worth about as much as the paper it is written on, but it is what the law states and that is all I said. I never once criticized you or your opinion.

my 2 cents: The great thing about law is that you can almost always make a good argument from both sides. From the limited experience I have with car warranties is that judges will go to great lenghts to protect the consumer. Heck I have heard of much worse abuse that definitely caused the damage to the car and the judge sided with the consumer because the car manufacturer could have easily foreseen that a consumer might make that kind of use and it's their responsibility to build a car that can handle it no matter what uses it is put to. I digress but the case I read invloved an 18 year old who went through 3 clutches in a couple of months and the judge sided with the kid and made them replace the clutch a fourth time and on... The reasonable prudent person doesn't think like a professional driver or car maker. I'm not taking any sides here on who should pay but, just adding some thought. Also, who says you have to have a jury? I know you sign all kinds of docs and read about the warranty but that's all prewritten and the consumer usually has no say when buying the car. A judge will jump right through that without giving it a thought. That's a contract of adhesion, meaning you had no say when you signed.

Lighten up Francis!

You quote me and state that I attack you? At the very least quote the person that attacked you. My knowledge comes from researching the Magnussen-Moss Act. Why don't you give that a try before you spout off offending people yourself.

The law states the burden of proof is on the dealership. Now I know that law is worth about as much as the paper it is written on, but it is what the law states and that is all I said. I never once criticized you or your opinion.

Who's Francis?

I still love you even though we disagree -- :alright

A monkey could convince 12 jurors that flooring your car off the line at every red light is unreasonable use.

In civil cases in California courts, a jury can render a verdict if 3/4ths of the jurors agree. So the monkey doesn't even have to be a very good monkey.

Who's Francis?

"Lighten up, Francis" is a well-known line from the 1981 Bill Murray movie "Stripes".

Psycho: The name's Francis Sawyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. Also, I don't like no one touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. And I don't like nobody touching me. Any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

"Lighten up, Francis" is a well-known line from the 1981 Bill Murray movie "Stripes".

Psycho: The name's Francis Sawyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. Also, I don't like no one touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. And I don't like nobody touching me. Any of you homos touch me, and I'll kill you.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

Nice!

Excellent discussion, guys. Let's just keep our tempers from flaring.

Razzle Dazzle!

All of this arguing will stop soon

As of 3/08 production BMW changed the DME to stop all "piggy back" mods from effecting the cars performance. How did they do this??? Im not exactly sure but I have heard engine signals will read from multiple locations/sensors thus bypassing the "piggy back" signals and shutting down the car completely. All of that info will be recorded in the DME so take off all the parts you want the "smoking gun" will be right inside the DME where BMW can see it

My money has and always will be with Dinan

Performance Without Sacrifice:redspot

All of this arguing will stop soon

As of 3/08 production BMW changed the DME to stop all "piggy back" mods from effecting the cars performance. How did they do this??? Im not exactly sure but I have heard engine signals will read from multiple locations/sensors thus bypassing the "piggy back" signals and shutting down the car completely. All of that info will be recorded in the DME so take off all the parts you want the "smoking gun" will be right inside the DME where BMW can see it

My money has and always will be with Dinan

Performance Without Sacrifice:redspot
I MENTIONED THIS ON MY LOCAL FORUM, AND THIS WAS THE RESPONSE I GOT......

This was discussed on e90 post, and someone called Dinan who said that there's just some different wiring on the March '08 build DMEs which requires dealers wanting to do a Dinan flash to get new hardware. Consensus over there is that it has nothing to do with piggybacks.

My source tells me that it specificly targeted false signals that piggy backs send to the DME. They will use multiple sensors/signals from other sources that are not used by the piggy back systems to identify false signals and shut the car off.

All of this arguing will stop soon

As of 3/08 production BMW changed the DME to stop all "piggy back" mods from effecting the cars performance. How did they do this??? Im not exactly sure but I have heard engine signals will read from multiple locations/sensors thus bypassing the "piggy back" signals and shutting down the car completely. All of that info will be recorded in the DME so take off all the parts you want the "smoking gun" will be right inside the DME where BMW can see it

My money has and always will be with Dinan

Performance Without Sacrifice:redspot
The piggy-back issue is just a rumor right now, nothing has been proven tho that end whatsoever. However, we know for a fact that there will be some changes to the DME, and for the time being, most N54's produced after March '08 will no longer be able to get the Dinan flash until they come out with an update.

The piggy-back issue is just a rumor right now, nothing has been proven tho that end whatsoever. However, we know for a fact that there will be some changes to the DME, and for the time being, most N54's produced after March '08 will no longer be able to get the Dinan flash until they come out with an update.



Rumor or not, you do have to admit it would be very easy for BMW to do. They already have all the info they need they just have to capture some signals set up some software and there you go... Just give Dinan 4-6 weeks and they will have it solved, good luck to everyone else...

Rumor or not, you do have to admit it would be very easy for BMW to do. They already have all the info they need they just have to capture some signals set up some software and there you go... Just give Dinan 4-6 weeks and they will have it solved, good luck to everyone else...

I agree, it seems they didn't initially program a lot of checks and balances between sensors and their readouts; instead, they assume each is correct, so fooling one or more could be caught.

Rumor or not, you do have to admit it would be very easy for BMW to do. They already have all the info they need they just have to capture some signals set up some software and there you go... Just give Dinan 4-6 weeks and they will have it solved, good luck to everyone else...

EVERYONE ELSE WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM DOING THE SAME. THE ONLY DIFF IN DINAN IS THEIR R&D THAT GOES INTO THEIR PRODUCT, THAT THE FACT THAT THEY CAN DO WHAT OTHERS CAN'T.

Rumor or not, you do have to admit it would be very easy for BMW to do. They already have all the info they need they just have to capture some signals set up some software and there you go... Just give Dinan 4-6 weeks and they will have it solved, good luck to everyone else...

The only reason Dinan is able to flash at all is because they bought the rights to access the DME from BMW. Since the DME is supposedly (again, this is from the internets) 1024 bit encrypted, there is NO WAY someone could actually crack the DME encryption keys in our lifetime, even with supercomputers, unless they got unrealistically lucky or knew someone on the inside that gave them access. Even if BMW does put some kind of system to check for the piggy-back signals, which like you said wouldn't be difficult, the piggy tuners will find a way around it as well.

Either way, Dinan will get things straightened out, and the piggy systems will find a way to work around it. Either that or the pre March 08 builds will become more desirable for tuners to have, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

Ahem...how long does it take to actually remove the Juice Box? How hard is it?

I agree, it seems they didn't initially program a lot of checks and balances between sensors and their readouts; instead, they assume each is correct, so fooling one or more could be caught.

BMW DMEs are all about plausibility. Every sensor is checked against other, similar sensors; there are no assumptions. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups. :stickoutt

My money has and always will be with Dinan

Performance Without Sacrifice

No sacrifice for them. A bit off topic but did anyone notice the prices for the Brembos on the Active Autoworks and Dinan 335's in Roundel? Same exact brakes but over $1k more at Dinan.

Back on topic, I would never expect BMW to honor an engine warranty unless the reflash couldn't be detected and, honestly, they should not have to.

BMW DMEs are all about plausibility. Every sensor is checked against other, similar sensors; there are no assumptions. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups. :stickoutt

Thanks, I was wondering how the piggybacks were able to fool some of the sensors, but not others. :)

Just pull it off, and take it to another dealer.

:lol

All the dealers now know his car has been modified and the drive-train warranty is void. Heck when I took my 323Ci in for service at a local dealership, the dealership immediately knew I had the car serviced 3 times at a different dealership closer to work even before they looked at the car. I had a Dinan software re-flash done at one dealership long, long time ago and had it removed after a couple of weeks (long story) and 3 years later they still have that on record at a different dealership 60+ miles away.

Stuff like that gets logged and shared by all dealerships nationwide. There's no way around it.

Posts like this make me wonder if people read what they sign when they lease or buy a car. BMW has no burden of proof to void a warranty. The word modification is so braod that it could apply to you changing to 3rd party side mirrors and they could void whatever they want. Go ahead and get a lawyer and let us know how this works out for you.

Posts like this make me wonder if people read what they sign when they lease or buy a car. BMW has no burden of proof to void a warranty. The word modification is so braod that it could apply to you changing to 3rd party side mirrors and they could void whatever they want. Go ahead and get a lawyer and let us know how this works out for you.

Thank you voice of reason/reality.
Anyone else want to call me Francis, maybe tell me to lighten up or something? Refer to me as a psycho perhaps? This is a very mature forum.

Gentleman, and I use that term loosely with some of you...I have had personal experience with exactly what we are discussing...and I did pay a little more than I would have liked to...but in the end, I think I have a bit more experience in this matter than any of you. In addition I am a manufacturer of a product that rolls down the road and is used recreationally...so I've had experiences from that end as well.

I love that I am asked to provide proof and then you back your statements up with nothing more than banter. Let's just say that if I were in the situation of the original poster I would not be too worried that I wasn't going to get a noise in my transmission covered under warranty. My experiences (once paid for) won't cost me nearly as much my second time around and I am, without doubt, certain that I won't have any issues in warranty coverage...that is as long as any of my modifications are causing the problem to begin with...and I will the first to admit it is entirely possible for that to be the case.

The law is the law...it's that simple...a sticker placed on a windshield or a statement made in an owners manual or even documentation in a lease or purchase agreement do not change the laws of our land. They are often placed their to deter people from making these modifications or to make it easier to bully someone into thinking they don't have a case and simply move on covering the cost of their problems.

Now, unless one of you is an attorney or you've had an experience with the denial of a warranty claim that you were entitled...and didn't simply "roll over" and take the manufactueres word on it but rather went to court, spent your hard earned dollars to defend yourself....well without all of that your opinion means nothing to me. I've lived it...I've won...it's that simple and nothing BMW or any other manufacturer writes or states is going to change the law.

So...if you choose to continue with the tirades...please keep going, but understand this, I'm done arguing this point...it's been discussed before...it will be discussed again...if you don't think you have a leg to stand on, pay your bill and move on...just don't bore me with your armchair legal advice.

Anyone else want to call me Francis, maybe tell me to lighten up or something? Refer to me as a psycho perhaps? This is a very mature forum.

Sir or madam - You should rent the movie "Stripes" this weekend. It's a comedy and "Lighten up, Francis" is a classic line and in common useage it is a way to light-heartedly point out that someone is getting inordinately worked up over a minor issue. I wouldn't be upset if someone said it to me.

Sir or madam - You should rent the movie "Stripes" this weekend. It's a comedy and "Lighten up, Francis" is a classic line and in common useage it is a way to light-heartedly point out that someone is getting inordinately worked up over a minor issue. I wouldn't be upset if someone said it to me.

Francis: "Nobody calls me Francis"

Sgt. Hulka: "Lighten up Francis"

Straight from Terry Burger:(
Hey guys,

I've been working closely with one of my European distributors and we have confirmed BMW did in fact add 'tuning protection' to the new ECU code. It seems to have happened in middle to late March production dates.

From what I know right now this update will detect any and all currently available piggyback systems and tuners, although there is a chance the JB1 is not effected. When the fault code is thrown it is stored in the extended set and it may or may not throw a limp condition. I don't want to release any technical information because I see this as somewhat of an opportunity to beat the competition to market with a solution. But this will definitely ruin a few peoples days.

There is a lot I don't know. I don't yet know if they plan to release this to all cars as they go in for oil changes, or if it will only effect new production build cars. I also don't know the production dates and when/if this will be hitting the US market.

We've all been hearing rumors and I now know there is some truth to them. May want to hold off on progman updates...
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15273#post15273

I can understand why BMW would void the warranty on the tranny because more power was applied to it. BUT dinan does not void BMW warranty, thus the tranny can handle it so I believe it should be covered, IMO.
does dinan even offer any mods that make a substatial amount of power over stock? not that i know of

Peak Horsepower 384 horsepower at 5700 rpm http://www.dinancars.com/store/skin1/images/spacer.gif
Peak Torque 421 lb-ft torque at 4300 rpm

This is straight from the Dinan website for the 335i flash. Stock HP/TQ is 300/300, so yes it gives a significant boost over stock.

Cheesy non-warranty mods = rice.

German mods with 3rd Party warranty = kraut.

:)

JUST KIDDING!!!!

does dinan even offer any mods that make a substatial amount of power over stock? not that i know of

http://www.dinancars.com/store/Supercharger-System-c-456-p-1576.html

I dunno about you guys, but around 100 HP is pretty substantial to me.:rolleyes

http://www.dinancars.com/store/Supercharger-System-c-456-p-1576.html

I dunno about you guys, but around 100 HP is pretty substantial to me.:rolleyes

Yeah, the Dinan 335i flash is the only product of theirs that is actually worth the money.

80+ hp and 120+ ft-lbs for $2000 is actually a screaming deal. 25 dollars per hp with a warranty of any kind is a bargain.

Straight from Terry Burger:(

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15273#post15273

NOT SURE HOW WELL ANYONE TRUSTS THIS GUY, BUT WOULD YOU PUT FAITH IN SOMEONE THAT IS MAKING STATEMENTS THAT COULD EFFECT HIS COMPETITION?

IT MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE, BUT FOR ME, I WOULD HOLD OUT FOR AN "OFFICIAL" STATEMENT, AND NOT A COMMENT BY SOMEONE THAT STANDS TO MAKE A PROFIT USING THE INFORMATION THEY RELEASE.

The funny thing guys is this is my car. The car was brought in for *anti-trap sunroof malfunction*, the roof would not close, and it was about to rain (that's what the weatherman said) so yes I went quickly down there without even thinking about the tuner being in the car. Once the car was there this whole chain reaction started. I simply asked the SA if the slight noise in first gear at low speed was normal, and if the cars normally get 13.4-13.8 avg. mpg. Did not get written up on the workorder or anything, they snooped on their own. So, this is a warning to all of you out there, don't get into the same spot as I did.

The funny thing guys is this is my car. The car was brought in for *anti-trap sunroof malfunction*, the roof would not close, and it was about to rain (that's what the weatherman said) so yes I went quickly down there without even thinking about the tuner being in the car. Once the car was there this whole chain reaction started. I simply asked the SA if the slight noise in first gear at low speed was normal, and if the cars normally get 13.4-13.8 avg. mpg. Did not get written up on the workorder or anything, they snooped on their own. So, this is a warning to all of you out there, don't get into the same spot as I did.


Maybe I'm missing something here...but you didn't really tell us what "spot" you were in...did you?

Thank you voice of reason/reality.
Anyone else want to call me Francis, maybe tell me to lighten up or something? Refer to me as a psycho perhaps? This is a very mature forum.

Its not about maturity; its about common sense. Can you imagine if BMW would allow something like this to fly? They would then have to allow other modded vehicles to be covered under warranty and if they did that how can they decide which mods they will and will not allow? Slippery slope my friend. Oh yeah and there is that whole contract thingy everyone signed when they bought the car explaining that warranty could be voided if you make any modification to your car. Stouid contractual laws.

Its not about maturity; its about common sense. Can you imagine if BMW would allow something like this to fly? They would then have to allow other modded vehicles to be covered under warranty and if they did that how can they decide which mods they will and will not allow? Slippery slope my friend. Oh yeah and there is that whole contract thingy everyone signed when they bought the car explaining that warranty could be voided if you make any modification to your car. Stouid contractual laws.

Contracts cannot enforce requirments that are contradictory to law. There are no exceptions to this, unless you challange the law in place. Yes you would probably have to hire an attorney. No, it is probably not worth it which is exactly the purpose of articles in contracts that are not in alignment with state and federal laws.

Oh and the whole Francis thing is a light hearted way to not take things so seriously. Sorry if it offended.

Its not about maturity; its about common sense. Can you imagine if BMW would allow something like this to fly? They would then have to allow other modded vehicles to be covered under warranty and if they did that how can they decide which mods they will and will not allow? Slippery slope my friend. Oh yeah and there is that whole contract thingy everyone signed when they bought the car explaining that warranty could be voided if you make any modification to your car. Stouid contractual laws.

As I said -- voice of reason.

Anyone preaching to the contrary is misleading you.

Contracts cannot enforce requirments that are contradictory to law. There are no exceptions to this, unless you challange the law in place. Yes you would probably have to hire an attorney. No, it is probably not worth it which is exactly the purpose of articles in contracts that are not in alignment with state and federal laws.

Oh and the whole Francis thing is a light hearted way to not take things so seriously. Sorry if it offended.

Not offended at all.. I just don't come to these boards to have bravado contests with people, nor do I come here and intentionally insult (sometimes I wish I had . Rather, I share my opinion, and sometimes that rubs people the wrong way. Sorry if you thought I was being too serious -- I just hate when I see inaccuracies and bravado replacing good common sense and actual, real world, documented realities.

As I said previously, BMW is very strict with its warranty coverage. Good luck to anyone who tests its boundaries. And, sometimes when you get away with adding a mod AND flying under the radar of the warranty police, I say SWEET. Wish I could do that with my expensive-as-ass car, I just can't afford the potential repair bills that BMW tends to give you when you are in their shop for anything. :eyecrazy

Good night, Good luck, Happy motoring to all!

Its not about maturity; its about common sense. Can you imagine if BMW would allow something like this to fly? They would then have to allow other modded vehicles to be covered under warranty and if they did that how can they decide which mods they will and will not allow? Slippery slope my friend. Oh yeah and there is that whole contract thingy everyone signed when they bought the car explaining that warranty could be voided if you make any modification to your car. Stouid contractual laws.

We will just need to disagree...those of you not modding your cars have nothing to worry about...those of you modding but believing some of what you are reading can just accept that and pay your own repair bills...those of you who understand the laws of this country can push a bit harder and have repairs covered that are not affected by your modifications. If you modifications caused the problem, you're on your own.

I've been in the manufuring business for years...from high performance offshore powerboats to recreations vehicles and a few things in between. We've run across examples of this and we can do everything we like to intimidate our customers but there are laws in place that are written (some of which have been discussed on this forum) to protect the consumer...and trust me most judges find in favor of the "poor, taken advantage of consumer".

As quoted above you state that BMW will not warranty modified cars...they wouldn't want to decide which mods they will or won't allow. Would this include aero kits, spoilers, wheels, tires, air filters, oil filters, exhaust systems, etc. If a manufacturer claims that replacing any parts on a car with anything other their parts voids the warranty, said manufacturer must supply those parts at no charge to the consumer. The slope is slippery...that much is for certain. Modifications that create failures would result in a terminated warranty, not on the entire car, just the parts that were effected by the modification and in turn failed.

Again, I think we will simply need to agree to disagree...I'm not worried about my modifications anymore than I'm worried about a plane hitting my house...thank goodness I'm not in a standard flight pattern...you know with all the American Airlines landing gear / wiring issues!!

There have been some good points and arguments here...but I just choose to believe they are the result of nervous people that tend to be un-informed...and I don't mean that in a derogatory way.

You can mod all you want and manufacturers will continue to choose what they decide to warranty or not. fact of the matter is, if they choose not to, you signed a contract saying you wouldn't mod. You sign over all power unless they choose to let you slide.

You can mod all you want and manufacturers will continue to choose what they decide to warranty or not. fact of the matter is, if they choose not to, you signed a contract saying you wouldn't mod. You sign over all power unless they choose to let you slide.

You can sign any contract that says anything...but if it violates state or federal laws it will not stand up in a court of law, these contracts have limitations to protect their interests but that doesn't mean they're carved in stone, manufacturers realize they can't rewrite the laws of our country. You sign nothing away when you lease or purchase a car...you're always protected by the law first. Manufacturers CANNOT void your warranty if your modification did NOT cause the damage attempted to be warranted. As Earl Pitts stated, "Wake Up America!"

Now...I'm done debating this...it's going in circles.

You can sign any contract that says anything...but if it violates state or federal laws it will not stand up in a court of law, these contracts have limitations to protect their interests but that doesn't mean they're carved in stone, manufacturers realize they can't rewrite the laws of our country. You sign nothing away when you lease or purchase a car...you're always protected by the law first. Manufacturers CANNOT void your warranty if your modification did NOT cause the damage attempted to be warranted. As Earl Pitts stated, "Wake Up America!"

Now...I'm done debating this...it's going in circles.

I hear you brother. SEMA went to the supreme court over this, and laws protect the consumer.

Here's an easy one for a lawyer. BMW allows Dinan to sell a similar upgrade for their cars to be done at the dealer. If the transmission can handle the claimed output, then it isn't an issue. The issue isn't about the tuning it's about if the car can handle the power.

It can, and so proven BY BMW for allowing an 3rd party tune to be sold at the dealer

BMW has staff lawyers so they will intimidate anybody. But just find a good lemon law lawyer or automotive and it's not an issue.

Even funnier, RACING voids the warranty (drag, SCCA) but I just got an offer to go to the track with my BMW with BMW...hmmm.

I also remember the case of a manufacturer denying a claim of warranty over abuse of trying to obtain the "manufacturers' claim 0-60" Car company said it was abuse....judge ruled–You can't claim the car to do something then not expect the consumer to try to obtain it.

Wow, these are all very good points for us to explore. Time to call my attorney or my SEMA rep to see what can be done. BTW: there is NO damage to my car, nothing broken whatsoever the car has 2400 miles on it, and is pampered, but the fuel mileage IS VERY poor and the trans. makes some odd noise in 1st gear at low speed.

You can sign any contract that says anything...but if it violates state or federal laws it will not stand up in a court of law, these contracts have limitations to protect their interests but that doesn't mean they're carved in stone, manufacturers realize they can't rewrite the laws of our country. You sign nothing away when you lease or purchase a car...you're always protected by the law first. Manufacturers CANNOT void your warranty if your modification did NOT cause the damage attempted to be warranted. As Earl Pitts stated, "Wake Up America!"

Now...I'm done debating this...it's going in circles.


He speaketh the truth. BMW can ask you to sign anything which may or may not stand up in court DEPENDING on whether it jives with state or federal laws.

Here's an easy one for a lawyer. BMW allows Dinan to sell a similar upgrade for their cars to be done at the dealer. If the transmission can handle the claimed output, then it isn't an issue. The issue isn't about the tuning it's about if the car can handle the power.

It's be easy but not in the way you think.

Dinan parts void the BMW warranty just like any other aftermarket mod.

Dinan then warrants the parts that lost their BMW warranty.

So BMW isn't backing Dinan in any way. Also, BMW dealers are independently owned and can sell any kind of aftermarket stuff they want. For better or worse, Dinan counts on the uninformed consumer to make the incorrect link that since Dinan dealers are also often BMW dealers then Dinan is endorsed by BMW. Which is not the case.

It's be easy but not in the way you think.

Dinan parts void the BMW warranty just like any other aftermarket mod.

Dinan then warrants the parts that lost their BMW warranty.

So BMW isn't backing Dinan in any way. Also, BMW dealers are independently owned and can sell any kind of aftermarket stuff they want. For better or worse, Dinan counts on the uninformed consumer to make the incorrect link that since Dinan dealers are also often BMW dealers then Dinan is endorsed by BMW. Which is not the case.

Allowing mods at the dealer is a form of acceptance. Sort of like when they release mods for the car and claim no "other" company's product is good enough. Many times these OEM parts are made by another company.

Allowing mods at the dealer is a form of acceptance. Sort of like when they release mods for the car and claim no "other" company's product is good enough. Many times these OEM parts are made by another company.

Every one of these examples would hold up in court...perception is reality, not always in a court of law, but as I have stated numerous times, the laws protect the consumer...the manufacturer makes all kind of claims that try to keep you from chasing them down...you signed this, you did that...but they don't hold water when it comes to the law...sure a good attorney can win anything...isn't OJ running free right now? I will state again, I am not too worried about my mods...they're mild, not pushing the envelope by any stretch and if I have an issue I don't think I will have any problem getting my claims handled...

:nono You have to pay to play... there are no free meals.

Yeah, the Dinan 335i flash is the only product of theirs that is actually worth the money.

80+ hp and 120+ ft-lbs for $2000 is actually a screaming deal. 25 dollars per hp with a warranty of any kind is a bargain.

Listen.. The dinan power increases are not much more than you get from the piggybacks.. Consider: they are using crank numbers because they hope buyers will compare their 384 crank hp numbers with the low specced bmw crank numbers of 300 hp; most piggybacks which have been tested are using actual whp numbers which are far more meaningful.. But regardless, most stock 335s seem to be making on avg about 275 whp. Lets try and round this up to a generably agreeable crank hp number. . Can we accept a conservative 15% power train loss here? So, lets divide this 275 whp by .85, giving an estimated crank hp value of 324 crank hp. So, dinan is quoting 384 crank hp, right? ie, a gain of about 60 hp. Some of the piggybacks Ive seen tested on the dyno are returning about 50 hp. While Ill go along with Dinan providing the highest results generably available, I dont think its all That much more than is available from some of the piggybacks. Whether its worth almost double the price of some of these units, and in some cases, 3 times the price is up to each individual.

>>I can understand why BMW would void the warranty on the tranny because more power was applied to it. BUT dinan does not void BMW warranty<<

This is simply untrue. If you think Dinan products dont void your bmw warranty in the system in which the products reside, just have some of these products installed, drive into a non Dinan affiliated BMW dealer and ask for some warranty support. LOL.. You wont get very far.. If you read the fine print in Dinan's agreement, youll see that whats really happening is that Dinan's coverage is supposed to begin where the BMW warranty ends due to the upgrades. And, where the Dinan dealer is also your BMW dealer, it may seem to the customer like the bmw warranty is being implemented seemlessly.. That is the Dinan goal. And it might seem like a technicality.. But to say that BMW does not void their warranty for Dinan products alone, or somehow treats Dinan products differently than any other aftermarket tuner would be untrue. Its Dinan, through their arrangement with some few number of BMW dealers, that picks up your warranty, not BMW.