e46 99' 323i -:help I find myslef depending on traction control to bail me out trying to take the next corner faster...turning it off usually leads to close calls. My cars auto to...feels like car does most of the work (lack of road feel) any ideas on how to get better feel and control out of my car.

Turn it off and slow down.

I've seen this before. You need to go to a shop with a "pilot wrench". There is a loose nut behind the wheel that needs to be tightened down.

You need more GT4 seat time.

-Charlie

I really do...i have done a couple HPD's at VIR with an instructor but i get stuck behind slower cars and can't get any good turns in.

I really do...i have done a couple HPD's at VIR with an instructor but i get stuck behind slower cars and can't get any good turns in.
I suppose lifting on the straights to make some room in front of you never occurred to you?

-tammer

:nuts I have seen this before.
Your problem is you are running out of talent/ability.:icon15

Slow down to be smooth.

Or take up a sport that only requires one ball:nutz:

I really do...i have done a couple HPD's at VIR with an instructor but i get stuck behind slower cars and can't get any good turns in.
Pit in for more space.

Turn off the TC. THen you wont catch up to those cars for a while.

So let me get this straight...you drive an automatic 323 on the track with traction control turned on?

Abort the track for now and learn some car control with your local chapter or SCCA (autox). If you are feeling overwhelmed by a 323i/automatic combo you owe it to your fellow trackers to take a rain check for their safety and yours.

I've seen this before. You need to go to a shop with a "pilot wrench". There is a loose nut behind the wheel that needs to be tightened down.

I damned near spit my coffee all over my monitor!

sell the e46 autotragic and buy a manual e30.. no TC to save your butt and great road feel..

hey Guido, i thought you goombahs all drove Corvettes. i would suggest you take your gold chain attitude back up north where you belong. go worry some poor instructor at the new track in Millville NJ.

just out of curiousity, which clubs have allowed you on VIR?

hey Guido, i thought you goombahs all drove Corvettes. i would suggest you take your gold chain attitude back up north where you belong. go worry some poor instructor at the new track in Millville NJ.

just out of curiousity, which clubs have allowed you on VIR?

?? what did i miss? btw, we don't want that "attitude" up here either...

e46 99' 323i -:help I find myslef depending on traction control to bail me out trying to take the next corner faster...turning it off usually leads to close calls. My cars auto to...feels like car does most of the work (lack of road feel) any ideas on how to get better feel and control out of my car.

I think you stated it yourself. The ASC+T does all the work to correct your mistakes. Stop doing mistakes and the computer will stop working for you. I guess you need to slow down and work the line and smoothness. As long as you'll want to go fast, you'll inevitably go slow. If your heart is pumping hard when you drive, then learn how to calm down. It'll give you more ability to think.

Don't pick on the HPD guys, they pay 75% of the bills for 1/8th the track time to let the real racers run. :D

Or take up a sport that only requires one ball:nutz:

...and this is where I just about died laughing. :rofl2

So let me get this straight...you drive an automatic 323 on the track with traction control turned on?

:lol

http://www.bellracquetsports.com/product_images/catalog10068/nsixtwo.jpg

I guess everybody on the BF.com track forum was born knowing all there is about driving on a track...

:dunno

I guess everybody on the BF.com track forum was born knowing all there is about driving on a track...

:dunno

It's not that, I don't think.
If I was driving a miata or other HP challenged machine, I would not want to encounter the OP on the track.
There are vastly experienced people responding to the OP and they are being rather tacit about how dangerous the OP could be on the track.

Without trying to be Harsh, I think that The OP has a mind set that is totally wrong regarding HPDE
1,He's missing the whole point. he thinks it's a race. He seems not to associate the events with improving his car control skills
2, He does not take any responsibility for his action..The traction controls fault that he cannot control the car. Other drivers to blame for being in the way of his admittedly out of control car.
3, He seems to have a lack of knowledge regarding how a car handles.
4, He is not Cognizant/confident in his own abilities.
5, He might be doing HPDEs for the wrong reasons and only because it is the *thing* to do in his microculture.


In the back of my mind, a little voice tells me *Danger*.

The OP needs to
1, read up on Handling.
2, Get rid of the BMW and pick up a front drive Nat asp machine
3, Attend a couple of car control clinics
4,Attend a couple of years of autox.
5, Re-assess his mindset . Take responsibility for his own actions.
6, Jump back in our sand pit as a new improved sand Flea .

m

I think you stated it yourself. The ASC+T does all the work to correct your mistakes. Stop doing mistakes and the computer will stop working for you. I guess you need to slow down and work the line and smoothness. As long as you'll want to go fast, you'll inevitably go slow. If your heart is pumping hard when you drive, then learn how to calm down. It'll give you more ability to think.

+1. I'm sure most of us that have track late model BMWs have done laps where we forgot to turn off the traction control. When I was a novice, I'd notice right away that DSC was still on. As I got better at being smooth, I could go farther without noticing it on because it wasn't interfering. Now, I can go around most tracks with only a little flicker of the light at certain corners, if I forget to turn it off. I prefer it off to get that last little bit out of the car, but leaving it on isn't as bad as the kids that swear they turn off DSC every time they pull out of their parent's driveway.

.....traction control.....???,.....your words are strange to me white man....:)

Let is all hang out....turn that crap off and run Cave man.....no ABS...and no DSC... :)

Now, I can go around most tracks with only a little flicker of the light at certain corners, if I forget to turn it off.

You aren't going fast enough :)

Hi Ravioli

I hope I will not sound too condescendent. Don't worry, it is not my purpose. A few comments above were indeed a bit on the harsh side but don't take them personally. We do encounter from times to times novice drivers who's intention is to go all ballz out and expect instant results, without going to the 100 steps to better driving. Nonetheless, let me ask you if there was an instructor with you, with whom you could share some ideas? If so, I guess he didn't have a good understanding of his purpose in the car. If you went out on the track, alone, then I guess it shows it might not be the best apprenticeship, and it shows that a good instructor is worth gold. Not only you would lear how to become a better driver, but it would also reduce the chances to bring your car back home in parts.

My best advice is to start on square one. Swallow your pride, and register to a BMWCCA driver school. Follow all the classroom instruction and talk to your instructor. His purpose is to help you.

On a more humorous tone, I understand that driving abilities are just like love making. All guys think they are Gods (in bed and behind a steering wheel) and they sometimes find difficult to hear they suck at doing it. But everything can be learned... :stickoutt

Don't pick on the HPD guys, they pay 75% of the bills for 1/8th the track time to let the real racers run. :D

Don't know where you get your numbers but I don't think the 1/8th the track time figure makes any sense. Please enlighten me.

I'm a beginner as well, so here's my 2 cents. I bought Forza 2 (any racing simulator will do), and began to practice on it. I picked my car (or any similar car if yours isn't in the game), and drove around tracks with it. First, drive with all assists on. Then turn off stability control. Then turn off traction control. Then turn off the line. Then turn off the braking markers.

Through all that practice, it really teaches you to:
1 - Be smooth
2 - Look ahead
3 - Realize that when you turn the wheel 10 degrees, and the car is actually turning 9 degrees, to straighten out the wheel and try to catch it.

#1 and #2 were just a question of practice and experience, but realizing when #3 is happening was really difficult for me in real life. After playing the game for a winter, I became vastly better at it. My first track day this year, I was pretty astonished how quickly I would notice and correct without even thinking.

Of course, there's a lot more to it than the above, but that's all technical stuff anyways. The biggest problem here (I think) is psychologically, you have to get it in your head that you're not in a race. You're there to learn car control. At this point, if you have an auto + traction control, it should be extremely easy to get around the track without ever engaging it.

First, just do a slow lap. Hold off on the straights, brake at 50%, etc... Get it so that you're consistently placing the car within about 3 feet (for beginner) of where it should be. Then go faster and faster until you start to slide. Once you start sliding, go slightly slower, and try to figure out where you went wrong. Then correct your mistake and go faster. Repeat

3 - Realize that when you turn the wheel 10 degrees, and the car is actually turning 9 degrees, to straighten out the wheel and try to catch it.

Um, that would be probably be a pretty normal slip angle (11%). Just letting off the gas should tuck the nose back in (at least in real life). Adding more steering would probably not do too much (or would actually hurt), and removing it would probably increase the radius. Learning where the grip is comes with lots of seat time.

But back to Ravioli, I think folks are dumping all over you by reading a lot into your brief post. I knew someone in an identical car to mine when I started. He was a much better autocrosser. I could never beat him. At the track, he simply wasn't comfortable turning off the ASC, and he didn't track it that much. It took many years before I saw him finally driving without the ASC hindering him. He wasn't a bad driver and he wasn't an idiot. He just had a different risk/reward point than I. Probably had car payments. Probably smarter than I.

Assuming you have a good instructor (like at a BMWCCA-quality event, not a loosely-run day where maybe you can ask for an instructor for a few laps), rely on him/her to help you. I agree that you should slow down before you turn off the ASC+T. Work on your line, looking ahead, and being smooth with your hands and feet. Try shifting your automatic manually, so that you can control where the downshift happens. It can unsettle the car in the middle of the turn.

My car requires more slip rate than the ASC will allow in order to go through some turns without bogging down. If you find you are having close calls, slow down and work on eliminating the root cause of the near miss. The root cause was probably way before the near miss.


For example.
Did you put two wheels off at track-out?
That's because you probably realized that you had to tighten the wheel late in the turn and the car couldn't turn.
That's because you arrived at an apex too early in the corner on a trajectory that didn't have you making the corner with the steering input that you had at the apex and perhaps you were squeezing on power when you should have been scrubbing off speed.
That's because you turned into the corner too soon (before the actual correct turn-in point).
That's because you weren't looking at the correct apex point before turn-in and scanning for the track-out (if visible -- some turns are blind). (While not the root cause, this is one of the most important ones.)
That's because you entered the corner faster than you are comfortable.
That's because you didn't brake long enough and perhaps early enough or hard enough.
That's because approached it from the "too early apex line" rather than the much, much safer "too late" apex line.
That's because you didn't have enough experience with this corner and learning new corners in general.

See what I mean?

Most people take many years to improve. Some people take to it faster (pun intended). And often if you don't go to many events, it's hard to improve because you forget over the off-season (like skiing, for example).

+1. I'm sure most of us that have track late model BMWs have done laps where we forgot to turn off the traction control. When I was a novice, I'd notice right away that DSC was still on. As I got better at being smooth, I could go farther without noticing it on because it wasn't interfering. Now, I can go around most tracks with only a little flicker of the light at certain corners, if I forget to turn it off. I prefer it off to get that last little bit out of the car, but leaving it on isn't as bad as the kids that swear they turn off DSC every time they pull out of their parent's driveway.

You aren't going fast enough :)

I think bmwretard may have a point here. I understand you're driving smoother at the limit/close to the limit. But the nature of DSC is to get in the way at the limit.

Don't take this too personally, but is it possible you're falling into a comfortable, slower rythm on track? I catch myself doing this sometimes...

Don't know where you get your numbers but I don't think the 1/8th the track time figure makes any sense. Please enlighten me.

+1. Last school I went to, our guest instructor - head instructor of the Panoz school and a professional racer (as in someone pays him to drive their cars) commented that to us that we generally get more track time per weekend than a pro racer does. I'm on track for 3 hours during a typical DE weekend. For a pro racer doing a sprint race, there's a short practice or two, a short qualifying session, and then a short race.

I think bmwretard may have a point here. I understand you're driving smoother at the limit/close to the limit. But the nature of DSC is to get in the way at the limit.

Don't take this too personally, but is it possible you're falling into a comfortable, slower rythm on track? I catch myself doing this sometimes...
DSC does interfer at the limit, which is why I turn it off on the track. However, the difference between it on and off isn't as drastic as people would have you believe. Its should only be interfering post apex, and it's just a minor retarding of power than can't be felt - its as if I didn't floor the gas pedal instead of any overt chop in power. Also consider, we are talking about stock non-///M cars, not modded cars that have the built-in understeer dialed out. Even with DSC off, it takes a lot of trailbraking and mid-corner throttle lift to get my car to rotate. For a beginner that is having issues, leave the DSC on and learn to drive without invoking it.

DSC does interfer at the limit...
Remember that DSC and ASC are completely different animals. ASC prevents the kind of slip rates that you would typically want. In some ways, DSC is worse at the track because you might not even know that it is working. Also, aren't there two stages of turning it off (holding the button for something like 5 seconds)?

I don't have DSC, but I was in a car where I swore the DSC was messing with the indiviudal brakes and we (student and I) couldn't figure out how to turn it off "more".

Remember that DSC and ASC are completely different animals. ASC prevents the kind of slip rates that you would typically want. In some ways, DSC is worse at the track because you might not even know that it is working. Also, aren't there two stages of turning it off (holding the button for something like 5 seconds)?

I don't have DSC, but I was in a car where I swore the DSC was messing with the indiviudal brakes and we (student and I) couldn't figure out how to turn it off "more".

I instructed a woman driving a 2002 M coupe at Buttonwillow a few years ago. She had the DSC on and it was causing her concern as she tried to accelerate out of a turn. She asked me if she could turn it off and I said 'please do'. The next lap through that same turn she nearly spun out but manually regained control. The rest of the day she drove veery well without the DSC.

I don't like ASc or DSC on the track. On wet surface streets DSC can be a life saver.

The next lap through that same turn she nearly spun out ....
Homer voice: Absorbing lesson. Tell student to slow down after turning car nanny off.

Homer voice: Absorbing lesson. Tell student to slow down after turning car nanny off.

The 'Operative Term' here is 'Nearly'. She had been paying attention to the fact that the DSC was saving her in previous laps and, while she still was a little hot through the turn, she was ready to handle what happened.

Also, aren't there two stages of turning it off (holding the button for something like 5 seconds)?

AFAIK this is on non-M cars only.... one press... DSC is off... DTC is still on. Longer press, DSC and DTC are off.

M cars (at least mine is this way) only have on or off.

Um, that would be probably be a pretty normal slip angle (11%). Just letting off the gas should tuck the nose back in (at least in real life). Adding more steering would probably not do too much (or would actually hurt), and removing it would probably increase the radius. Learning where the grip is comes with lots of seat time.



I didn't mean it literally. I was talking in general if you are turning the wheel and you are not getting the desired response. Last year, I couldn't tell my car was understeering, and I thought I was just not turning the wheel enough.

Remember that DSC and ASC are completely different animals. ASC prevents the kind of slip rates that you would typically want. In some ways, DSC is worse at the track because you might not even know that it is working. Also, aren't there two stages of turning it off (holding the button for something like 5 seconds)?

I don't have DSC, but I was in a car where I swore the DSC was messing with the indiviudal brakes and we (student and I) couldn't figure out how to turn it off "more".
Yes, when I turn it off for the track, I press and hold until both the DSC and brake light come on (which is annoying to do when you're already on the track). The middle stage (just DSC light on) you'd never know was working, as the DSC light would always be on. Still, how can you call DSC worse, when it will let you get closer to the car's limits than ASC?

I guess everybody on the BF.com track forum was born knowing all there is about driving on a track...

There are some people who generally know everything about everything.

It's a tough life, being perfect, but I try to deal with it.


hey Guido, i thought you goombahs all drove Corvettes. i would suggest you take your gold chain attitude back up north where you belong. go worry some poor instructor at the new track in Millville NJ.

just out of curiousity, which clubs have allowed you on VIR?


Not all the 'Vette drivers are yahoos. Some of us just don't like modifying the crap out of a car to get over 400 hp! We do have to deal with the fact that ours cars look very phallic, however... and the interiors are worse than E36 M3 stereos!




And to the OP... keep your chin up, and take a dose of humility... you're not going to set lap records your first day out. Take it slow, your wallet will thank you.

Still, how can you call DSC worse, when it will let you get closer to the car's limits than ASC?

Worse only in the sense that the action is more subtle than ASC, and someone who is relying on it might not even know it and think that they are driving well, when in reality the individual corner brakes are keeping things tidy. ASC's action is fairly unsubtle -- the car just doesn't go.

IMO, neither has a place in driver education at the track. Both are so invasive that they prevent proper education. I understand that other systems, like the Corvette and Porsche systems step in only when things are really out of hand, and are routinely left on at the track. No personal experience, though.

Edit: "neither has a place in driver education" is too strong. I mean for the intermediate or advanced driver.

well that was like setting of a bomb...thanks for all the opinons, good and rude. I just should have asked for thoughts on traction control and made my own assessment of its use.

well that was like setting of a bomb...thanks for all the opinons, good and rude. I just should have asked for thoughts on traction control and made my own assessment of its use.

nah.. this way was far more entertaining :) nice to see you take it all in stride..

well that was like setting of a bomb...thanks for all the opinons, good and rude. I just should have asked for thoughts on traction control and made my own assessment of its use.

I did my first few runs in a high HP auto sedan with an automatic and DSC that could not be completely shut down. It's not a bad way to start if you focus on being smooth while balancing the car such that the system does not engage - very safe way to learn the fundamental skills.

After a few sessions things started coming together and the electronics were getting in the way of progress. I always had a great time at the track, became hooked so I dumped it for something with no electronic granny and a 5 speed manual for the track.

Experience is everything especially if you learn from it. About 5,000 repetitions are needed to develop the level of muscle memory as needed for many aspects of driving at the limit of grip so it takes experience. This means practicing what you learn in class even on the street (at safe legal speeds of course).

Seek out and do as much skidpad time as you can as early as possible when starting out. The reactions needed for oversteer are counter intuitive and require in the seat experience to develop the finesse.

I don't have much time for track days (med school gets in the way), but every once in a while I take my ASC-less ( :D) 328 into an empty parking lot at night and create scenarios to learn to respond to it.

Also much autocrossing in the car helped. I figure practice without it makes perfect.

Changing a comfortable habit is the hardest thing to do. Don't let DSC be your habit. I test drove a friends E46 M3, turned the DSC off, and realized that all that practice helped control the (very wild) M3. It was real fun.

you e36 guys.....take out/disable the brake pedal sensor and like MAGIC...you have a real car....nothing but you and physics now....what a learning tool. This disables the DSC and ASC....how did I find this out....I bought an eBay track car project and never fixed it, when I saw what good things this particular error did... :)

you e36 guys.....take out/disable the brake pedal sensor and like MAGIC...you have a real car....nothing but you and physics now....what a learning tool. This disables the DSC and ASC....how did I find this out....I bought an eBay track car project and never fixed it, when I saw what good things this particular error did... :)

Does that also kill the brake lights?