one sub is a kicker cvr
the other is a rockford (i dont remember, but they are both older ones)
the amp is a rockford too 1200w
the box is sealed, 15Lx22Wx13H? around there, so its a bit small

my friends 2 10"s knock way harder than mine, and i think he only has an 800 or 1000w amp, and his is sealed too, but they are seperate

its been bugging me non-stop

so can i just drill a 3" hole in the back or something to make it louder?
thanks in advance :D

New subs in a ported box...

lol if i had money
im 16, and dont have a job
and my car, for some reason, gets 8-12 mpg
so new anything is not an option for me
maybe over the summer, but for now..

would just drilling a hole in the box help any?
is the hole supposed to be a certain size?
do i have to put a tube in it if i drill a hole? (idk what its called)

oh and the rockford looks like this
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/vtec/DSCI0011.jpg
and the kicker like this
http://www.team-godspeed.com/gallery/albums/userpics/normal_10092007113.jpg

Are they out of phase?

>^..^<

Ignore any ratings on amps and subs that don't say RMS. My guess is your 1200w is actually about 400rms. I had some Rockford that looked like those subs about 5 years ago and they were 300rms.

You can't just port a box by drilling a hole, the port (length of tube) needs to be tuned to the box - in a nutshell, your port diameter, port length and box volume are all determinants of the box's tuned frequency.

Also ported boxes are generally a fair bit larger than sealed boxes so if you think you ain't got enough volume for sealed, don't even think of trying to go ported.

Before any more advice, need amp model number, and what are the subs (single voice coil or dual voice coil, and how many ohms)

Are they out of phase?

>^..^<
out of phase? im new to all this im sorry
if u mean the little knob on the back of the amp that says all the hz, its on 30-50 i think

Do not just drill a hole in the back of your box. Speaker ports are designed to be tuned to your speaker and cabinet.

The first problem I see is that you have a box that is impossible to fit 2 - 12 inch speakers on the same face. Although this is not a requirement depending on which cabinet design you have, speakers that are on the opposite sides of the cabinet will cancel each other out in theory. The other problem is that your box is too small for the 2 speakers like you have.

Start there and then we can talk about cabinet porting.

Ignore any ratings on amps and subs that don't say RMS. My guess is your 1200w is actually about 400rms. I had some Rockford that looked like those subs about 5 years ago and they were 300rms.

You can't just port a box by drilling a hole, the port (length of tube) needs to be tuned to the box - in a nutshell, your port diameter, port length and box volume are all determinants of the box's tuned frequency.

Also ported boxes are generally a fair bit larger than sealed boxes so if you think you ain't got enough volume for sealed, don't even think of trying to go ported.

Before any more advice, need amp model number, and what are the subs (single voice coil or dual voice coil, and how many ohms)

how do you know what the rms is if they dont state it?
i see amps with 2600w and i know they dont have that much, but then they dont tell me the rms? hate it

what will it sound like if i get the length of the tube and diameter as good as i can, but the box being a bit too small? no low notes or what?

how do you know what the rms is if they dont state it?
i see amps with 2600w and i know they dont have that much, but then they dont tell me the rms? hate it

If they do not state the RMS power, look for another amp.


what will it sound like if i get the length of the tube and diameter as good as i can, but the box being a bit too small? no low notes or what?
Port lengths and sizes vary by the size of the cabinet and desired frequency. You can actually cancel out the bass if it is not tuned properly.

my bad, idk what i was thinking
28x14x14
rockford punch HE
kicker cvr
rockford punch 401s 1200w

Your amp is rated at 100w x2 into 4 ohms or 200w x2 at 2 ohms. Not 1200 watts

ahh god that sucks
so i used a box calculator and it says its 2.64 cu.in

thanks for all the help too btw

i dont know how many ohm's they are either
i just know 2 of the 4 total slots you put the sub wires in the back of the amp dont work, the left ones, so my friend got 2 wires and twisted them together and put them in the 2 slots that work, i think that would do something with the ohms right?

You have got alot of problems going on. First and foremost, get 2 identical subs that all voice coils are working.

Your sub box can be saved if you replace the woofers. Even though it is a bit on the small side, you can choose woofers that are recommended for the cabinet. Also you can tune the cabinet to the desired frequency even if the cabinet is on the small side.

Your amp, although not the 1200 watts that you thought, will be a good power source for 2 - 8 ohm subwoofers wired in parallel when bridged.

If you hook this up correctly, I'm sure you will be very happy with the outcome.

hmm cool thanks
yea ive noticed that one sub hits a little more than the other, what if i get a chambered box? wouldnt this fix the problem?

how many ohms you think i have now?
all 4 wires from the subs are going in the 2 holes on the left side of the amp (if that makes sense)

im planning on getting a job over the summer, then doing this job the right way, so this is only temporary, another reason why i dont want to spend any money on it

hmm cool thanks
yea ive noticed that one sub hits a little more than the other, what if i get a chambered box? wouldnt this fix the problem?

No

how many ohms you think i have now?
all 4 wires from the subs are going in the 2 holes on the left side of the amp (if that makes sense)

The ohms (impedence) depends on the subs you have. They are all different. Especially if you have dual voice coils.

So 1 channel of the amp is fried. You've now got either 100rms at 4 ohms or 200rms at 2 ohms.

I hope both subs are single voice coil 4ohms. that's the only way you'll get 200rms out of it.

On the back of each sub, how many terminals are there: 1 pair = single voice coil, 2 pair = dual voice coils. The kicker is probably SVC but those Rockford came in DVC (from memory).

With the limited power you've got, you need the amp to see a 2ohm load. Go here http://www.bcae1.com/ scroll down the right hand side to 58. Hopefully that'd shed some light on what you're doing.

damn, subs are confusing
what do you think about these?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-uwYnZeVSZiJ/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?c=3&g=520&I=113W3011&s=0&cc=01

I'd upgrade the amp before anything else.

Since it sounds like you're new to this audio stuff, ten commandments to consider:

1/ Wattages have nothing to do with how good something will sound.
2/ Beware of marketing BS.
3/ Rear speakers are the lowest priority. Buy them last, if at all.
4/ Ignore any wattage rating that doesn't have 'RMS' after it.
5/ The sub box is more important than the sub. Do not scrimp on it.
6/ Always properly fuse all power wires. Cooked human is not a nice smell.
7/ The 'Gain' control is not another volume knob.
8/ Your car audio system will never be finished. It will only ever reach temporary completion stages.
9/ Under no circumstances do you ever ever ever disclose to a female (even if she doesn't know your wife/misses) how much you've spent.
10/ And finally never singalong to Boney M or Abba at trafficlights.

hmm, yea the kicker always looked like it was barely hitting harder, but i dont know if its just in my head, idc really, its all free, my friend gave me his old setup because i helped him out with his motor swap lol

im just glad he helped me with the wiring, all tucked and unnoticeable

so a new setup wont be too bad

sofar my to get list over the summer is

1. new headunit --100-300
2. 2 new 12"s (kenwoods, link of them on previous post) --200-250
``` normal ported box
3. MAYBE 2 15"s
```custom box/something that will fit --idk
4. amp--200-300

So the Kenwoods are 260 for the pair??? Don't bother. Plenty of better subs for less.

I've just recommended Fi on another post. If you're on a bit of a budget, Fi.SSD12 dual 2 for $189. You'll only need one sub and it'll eat your mates pair of 12s for breakfast. Take the $60 you saved from the sub and the extra cash from the single box and get a better amp. Hunt around for a monoblock that can do about 800rms at 1ohm (or 800rms at 2ohms if you get a dual 1 sub)

Your Rockford fosgate is actually good power for 2 subs. The 200w x 2 rating at 2 ohms is "real" power. If you run this amp in bridged mode with 2 8 ohm subs as I have mentioned before you will have a nice system. Since you are on a limited budget, this is the least expensive way to go.

damn, subs are confusing
what do you think about these?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-uwYnZeVSZiJ/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?c=3&g=520&I=113W3011&s=0&cc=01

Try to buy 8 ohm subs. These are 4 ohms.

If you were to go with 4 ohm speakers, we have a great deal on 12" subs.

http://www.12velectronics.com/servlet/the-Speakers-cln-Subwoofers/Categories

We also offer 10% off for forum members. You will need to contact us directly to get this discount.

Son of a bitch, I had about 15 minutes of crap all typed up for you when my computer spontaneously died and it all went poof.

Here's the manual to your amp:

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/scripts/rightnow.cfg/php.exe/enduser/fattach_get.php?p_sid=RTxOew*i&p_tbl=9&p_id=303&p_created=1083265784






Here are some ideas I have that might help you...


sounds like your amp's crossover settings may not be set ideal. You could be cutting the signal too low or even running a highpass filter.

your subs could be off-phase

one sub could be dual voice coil and not have one coil getting power or, even worse, theyre both hooked up and you're putting g-d knows what kind of load on the poor amp.

if one of the outputs on the amp is kaput, depending on what is wrong, you may be able to use it in bridged mode and get 400W RMS out of it (but only to one sub).



if you really want to figure this crap out, then look over that manual and then I'll talk to you on AIM or, if I'm feeling particularly generous, I'll let you call me.

if one of the outputs on the amp is kaput, depending on what is wrong, you may be able to use it in bridged mode and get 400W RMS out of it (but only to one sub).


You can run more than one sub off of this amp in bridged mode. The key is matching the impedence to arrive at 4 ohms when bridging. This will give you the 400 watts power at 2 ohms.

try just hookin' up 1 sub it probably will sound louder. i'm sayin' this because i had two different subs before. a power acoustik sub and a jl audio w0. this was when i first started drivin' thats why my system was soo ghetto. anyways, i disconnected one sub and i definitely had more bass. i dont know why. the power acoustik sub is 500wrms, and the w0 is ~ 125wrms. but instead of 2 12's you could just use 1 12 and have a custom ported box built. i have currently have an alpine type r with a 2.5cu.ft ported box, and its as loud as two kickers l7 with the same amp.

You can run more than one sub off of this amp in bridged mode. The key is matching the impedence to arrive at 4 ohms when bridging. This will give you the 400 watts power at 2 ohms.

How do you get a 4 ohm load out of two SVC 4 ohm drivers?

How do you get a 4 ohm load out of two SVC 4 ohm drivers?

You can't. They would need to be 8 ohm and you would run them in parallel.

You can't. They would need to be 8 ohm and you would run them in parallel.

So then... He can only use one of his subs in bridged mode. Isn't that what I said?

thanks for all the help guys, i just talked to my friend, and he said he can make me a custom box for 50 because i saved his ass 3 in the morning one time lol

and his bro and his friends r all gurus about this stuff, they said to go with a 4 ohm, and they'd do the rest?

how does 1 18" sound? :P
im kind of thinking about 2 15" since im going to be spending some good money on this, and in the back of my mind, i know 12"s will be bugging me

but again, thanks for all the help guys

ill go looking around your site 12v, 10% is a good chunk lol
thanks

So then... He can only use one of his subs in bridged mode. Isn't that what I said?

He does not have these subs. He has 2 mismatched subwoofers that at least one of them appears to be a dual voice coil unit.

He is asking for advice on new subwoofers and that is where my answer comes from.

Also the Kicker CVR is availavble in dual 4 ohm voice coil drivers, which you can have 2 of them and still get to 2 ohm power

and his bro and his friends r all gurus about this stuff, they said to go with a 4 ohm, and they'd do the rest?

how does 1 18" sound? :P
im kind of thinking about 2 15" since im going to be spending some good money on this, and in the back of my mind, i know 12"s will be bugging me


Right, you want it loud, we've got that sorted. Buying the biggest speaker doesn't guarantee you loudness. The bigger the speaker, the more surface area it has and so the lower frequency it will play (general rule).

Buy quality not quality. A mid level 18 could have less output than a good 12 or 15. There aren't many 18s around cos there's simply not a demand for them. Do not look at Kenwood, Panasonic, JVC etc etc - There are far better speakers that don't have the brand image meaning you get heaps better value for money.

If these friends are the ones that gave you your current system then I would hardly say they're gurus. At all costs you should avoid running two different subs. A friend has an Alpine TypeR 12, with a 1000rms amp. He made early 140s db. The point I'm making is the sub is only as good as the box you make for it.

To make my point, look at those Kenwood subs you linked. Xmax on them is 11.3mm with sd=500cm2. So in theory thay can move 565cm3 (500x1.13) of air linearly in each direction. The Audioque HC312 has sd=530cm2 and a throw of 3" (let's say 2.5" to allow for non-linear throw) so Xmax ~ 31mm (62mm throw ~ 2.5"). Rightee, the HC312 can then theoretically move 1643cm3 (530x3.1) of air linearly in each direction. So in a nutshell, the specs guesstimate that a single HC312 is gonna be three times louder than a single Kenwood W3011. **Note this is all vague theory and not a guarantee of how things will perform**

Then you look at the design differences. The Kenwood are made to be mass market all round sub. The audioque is designed to be loud.

If having an 18" sub in your car is gonna ring your bell then go for it. But what's gonna happen when someone pulls up beside you with a beast of a 10" sub and wipes the floor with you.

The problem with 4 ohm subs is getting powerful amps for them. I'd be looking for a dual 2 cos that way you can series it to 4 ohms (for 2 channel amps) or parrallel it to 1 ohm (for 1ohm stable monoblocks)

My advice, single 12" sub, large ported box tuned to 40hz.

hmm, lol i just dont want people to be like
wtf haha 1 12"?!
im either going to go for 2 12", or 1 18"

for 12's id go with the type r's

for 18-ma audio 1800xl? never heard of them, but people say they knock pretty hard, and my friend is going to take as much space in my trunk as possible, and its going to be a ported box, i havent looked at amps yet

but thanks for the info, i need to remember that

hmm, lol i just dont want people to be like
wtf haha 1 12"?!
im either going to go for 2 12", or 1 18"

for 12's id go with the type r's

for 18-ma audio 1800xl? never heard of them, but people say they knock pretty hard, and my friend is going to take as much space in my trunk as possible, and its going to be a ported box, i havent looked at amps yet

but thanks for the info, i need to remember that

It's people like this that give car audio a bad name. Just go to Best Buy, get a bunch of Audiobahn bullshit, and run the cheapest amp you can find.
Or, actually listen to advice and stop being a retard.

what crawled up your ass? lol
im new to this, sorry for not being as educated about audio systems as you are

but anyways, what do you guys think about this sub and amp?
http://cgi.ebay.com/MA-Audio-MA1800XL-18-1600-Watt-Competition-Subwoofer_W0QQitemZ320216737740QQihZ011QQcategoryZ 18805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=500MRPM850&c=3&tp=115&tab=features_and_specs

if those are no good, i guess ill just go with the 2 type r 12's

what crawled up your ass? lol
im new to this, sorry for not being as educated about audio systems as you are

but anyways, what do you guys think about this sub and amp?
http://cgi.ebay.com/MA-Audio-MA1800XL-18-1600-Watt-Competition-Subwoofer_W0QQitemZ320216737740QQihZ011QQcategoryZ 18805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?type=3&campid=5335818596&toolid=10001&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FMA-Audio-MA1800XL-18-1600-Watt-Competition-Subwoofer_W0QQitemZ320216737740QQihZ011QQcategoryZ 18805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=120&i=500MRPM850&c=3&tp=115&tab=features_and_specs

if those are no good, i guess ill just go with the 2 type r 12's

You come in here, asking for help, then when someone suggests something good, like the Fi line, you tidily ignore them and say "oh no, im going to do this".

It's not about you being uneducated, I'm not guru. But when you're uneducated, ignorant, and unwilling to listen, that's when it's annoying.

Don't bother posting if that's what you're going to do.

For the record, MA Audio is shit, and Alpine is overpriced.

Both of those are bad choices.

Some productive suggestions, in case you decide to listen:

eD Ov or Av line subwoofers get pretty loud, and aren't too pricey. Their amps are very cheap for what they are too (rebranded Avionixxx)
Fi, or RE as already mentioned
used JL, since it is overpriced
Image Dynamics IDQ or IDMax v2 or v3s depending on budget.

In fact, go with 1-2 IDQ12v3's and with a 600-1000W amp depending on the voice coils you get, and I guarantee you'll be happy.

haha im sorry
from the subs you listed, ive only heard of the image dynamics, ill go look around, but thanks for the info

haha im sorry
from the subs you listed, ive only heard of the image dynamics, ill go look around, but thanks for the info

Chances are, if you've heard of it, it's shit. (Kenwood, Sony, etc.)


1 x Elemental Designs NINe.1 (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_22&products_id=44)
2 x Image Dynamics IDQ12V3.D2 (http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=6224)

This should be fine, and will deliver 450W to each sub when properly wired. It will also be loud as fuck, and will not sound like slop.

damn lol thank you very much
i really like the Fi's
especially for the price, and 5 year warranty on an amp :P
what more could you ask for?

oh and i just thought of something

on subs with dual voice coils, you know how theres a pair of terminals for one coil and another pair for the other terminal? (i think)

so that nine.1 amp you showed me, it says 1200x1ohm and 900x2ohm
and the Fi Q sub handles 1000rms, i have to get the 2 ohm sub right? (only 1 sub)

let me know if im being too vague, thanks

oh and i just thought of something

on subs with dual voice coils, you know how theres a pair of terminals for one coil and another pair for the other terminal? (i think)

so that nine.1 amp you showed me, it says 1200x1ohm and 900x2ohm
and the Fi Q sub handles 1000rms, i have to get the 2 ohm sub right? (only 1 sub)

let me know if im being too vague, thanks


First of all, just because it says 1000RMS, doesn't mean you have to give it 1000RMS. Those subs should be fine with ~500W each, or even less.

Keep in mind, more wattage is not necessarily louder. The IDQ12s will be louder than the Fi.Q12s because they are more sensitive to the power given. Also, higher wattage suffers from diminishing returns, so don't worry too much about it. The IDQs would sound good and loud even on 300W each.

As for wiring, use this (http://www.crutchfield.com/S-vXjxZ8K8shQ/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_wiring.html), but be aware that there are other configurations as well.

if your amp handles 1ohm, get two 4ohm dvc subs.
2ohm, get two 2ohm dvc subs, but wired in series to getta 2ohm load.

and i'm guessin' you want two subs right?

Stay away from the idqs. They're a sq sub that will get loud, not what you're wanting. You want noise and heaps of it - go Fi, RE, IDmax, Treo. Alpine type R are ok but there's better for the coin.

Have a good look at those Fi and audioque subs, and if in doubt, go on a site like this http://audioforum.termpro.com/forum/8.html which is full of bass heads and ask questions. Those nutter will point you in the right direction

Stay away from the idqs. They're a sq sub that will get loud, not what you're wanting. You want noise and heaps of it - go Fi, RE, IDmax, Treo. Alpine type R are ok but there's better for the coin.

Have a good look at those Fi and audioque subs, and if in doubt, go on a site like this http://audioforum.termpro.com/forum/8.html which is full of bass heads and ask questions. Those nutter will point you in the right direction


Hang on a second, the IDQs are an SQL sub, not straight SQ. Have you seen the new V3s? They look really beefy, pretty much on par with the V2 IDMAX! The V2 IDQs were straight SQ though, so do stay away from those.

According to the sensitivity, ratings, and personal responses, they get extremely loud. Just FYI. Although I do agree with you that you can get louder, what's the point if it's going to turn into an imprecise mess?

According to the sensitivity, ratings, and personal responses, they get extremely loud. Just FYI. Although I do agree with you that you can get louder, what's the point if it's going to turn into an imprecise mess?

The idqv3 is still a sq sub on a par with the v2. The v3 has better bottom end but does lose a little bit in the higher sub frequencies from what I've heard on the ID forums. I'm still running in the ones I've got so can't really give a decent opinion about them.

US retail is $299 on the idq12v3, so IMO he'd be better off in the Fi SSD or Audioque 312 which go for less and although they won't sound as good as the IDQ, they'll have more SPL potential and probably handle abuse more than the idq.

The idqv3 is still a sq sub on a par with the v2. The v3 has better bottom end but does lose a little bit in the higher sub frequencies from what I've heard on the ID forums. I'm still running in the ones I've got so can't really give a decent opinion about them.

US retail is $299 on the idq12v3, so IMO he'd be better off in the Fi SSD or Audioque 312 which go for less and although they won't sound as good as the IDQ, they'll have more SPL potential and probably handle abuse more than the idq.


Fair enough, although I think we both know if you pay retail you've failed :stickoutt.

I've never actually heard the Fi subs, so I'm hesitant to recommend them, but they seem very well received.

Point conceded :).

please do the world a favor and give your stereo away and do not try to do this again

thanks guys for all the help, ive made up my mind
1. Fi SSD 18
2. 6.44 cu.f sealed box
3. NINe. 1 amp

6.44cu.ft sealed? a box that big, might as well go ported. all imma ask you is why are you goin' for an 18" for?

damn, subs are confusing
what do you think about these?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-uwYnZeVSZiJ/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?c=3&g=520&I=113W3011&s=0&cc=01

i think you should fix the gas mileage problem first.

:)

you want really loud bass?
one 12" Phoenix gold Ti12d elite, proper box, and 1000w RMS.

end story.

:)

lol i got my valves adjusted, helped a few MPG
seafoamed the car too
hopefully a MAF will help with gas too

i think i should just stick with what i set my mind on now, if i keep switching around then this thread will never end haha

everyone has 12's though
i want to be a little different :P

love your wagon too btw, only wagon id EVER get

will the ssd18 play well in a sealed box? The Fi website doesn't list any sealed volume so I'm guessing it's designed for ported instead.

The box is as important as you choice of sub.

i really dont know, but on there website, they recommend 4-8 cu.f in a sealed box for the Q18, i took some measurements, and my box will have 6.44-6.72, depending if i make the height 15" or 16"

i really dont know, but on there website, they recommend 4-8 cu.f in a sealed box for the Q18, i took some measurements, and my box will have 6.44-6.72, depending if i make the height 15" or 16"

Once again I will have to ask this. How are you going to put an 18" driver in a 16" cabinet? Is there some other worldly dimension I don't know about?

lol heres the box dimensions

45width
23depth
height(1)15
height(2) 10
6.44 cu.ft with 1/2 wood
the depth of the sub might be an issue, so it might have to be placed higher on the box

wedge enclosure

and ill still have some space behind the box to hide the wires and place the amp

okay i just thought of another question, is it bad to have a sealed trunk? (almost?)
i think some air is getting through, but because the piece behind the rear headrests where the rear speakers are, seems to be getting lose and i can see some vents there now, i dont want it to keep getting lose, so maybe if i let some of the air out of the trunk it wont make it as loose?

would it be better for me to drill a 3" hole behind the armrest? (it wont be noticeable)

lol heres the box dimensions

45width
23depth
height(1)15
height(2) 10
6.44 cu.ft with 1/2 wood
the depth of the sub might be an issue, so it might have to be placed higher on the box

wedge enclosure

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of GOOD 18" subwoofers.

Did you consider how you are going to get a cabinet like this in the car?

You will most likely have to build it in the car to get it in.

Also, what happened to your budget, being unemployed and all?

it will fit, i left an extra inch all around, and i still have about 2.4cu.ft left behind the box for an amp

my uncle said hed hook it up with a job, but id have to work a good amount, and if i still dont get enough end of the month, he said hed give me the rest as long as i pay him back

I think he's saying make sure you can fit the box through the boot opening, or else you gonna have to build it in oarts and then join it once it's in the boot

i guess, but i dont think its worth the hassle to all of that when you could do 3 12's or 2 15's in a big box ported and still be louder than 1 18"..and you will still be different for havin' a loud system in a "throwback" bmw.

I think he's saying make sure you can fit the box through the boot opening, or else you gonna have to build it in oarts and then join it once it's in the boot

Actually, I don't think he will physically be able to get this in the trunk if it is built outside the vehicle. (without a Sawzall and a 55 gallon drum of vaseline)

45width
23depth
height(1)15
height(2) 10

i can always take off the trunk lid?
its not using the back portion of the trunk

no hassle on my part
im not making the box lol, and my friend said he can do it no prob

im going to get rid of that useless toolkit too, saves me a couple inches