Hello all

I've been lurking around the boards for a few years, (thanks for the wealth of info) have posted a few replies but never felt the need to post up a new thread, until now.

The following is a new thread I posted up on M3forum.com, a new thread (the original thread that prompted this response is locked) responding to a 17-year old "e46fanatic09" questions on getting out of speeding tickets.

I will post this up across some other sub-forums as it is a response think is worth repeating, I will post a logical order of the threads at the end of this post.

My response to "e46fantaic09" over at M3forum.com:

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I read your last post and the responses that came with it, your post and attitude left me with a very sick feeling. I have read a very similar post before, not so very long ago, the thread was on 25-26 January of this year

I will give you the short story and were to finds the threads that pertain to this incident

25 January, on “m5board.com” and 18 year old “AmericanM5” posted a thread asking questions about why his cars bangs when he shifts at speed, later in the thread he states that he is up-shifting at 140mph, after that he got (rightfully) raked across the coals

The thread:

m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111454 (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111454)

In his second to last post he writes;

I do sometimes make bad decisions but I am young and I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others..and I hope you are not under the impression that I am the one to brag

Care to guess what happened next?

The first clues are at the end of the thread

This 18 year old, Josh, the fellow that says “I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others, Driving his Daddy’s 500hp M5 launched his car off the end of a private runway at 3:30am, and (literally) shattered it against a Live Oak tree following a party. Maybe he was “rolling” too?

The result is Josh and 4 of his friends are dead, all killed instantly

Your statement, so eerie to Josh’s;

“Contrary to what I know your all thinking, I would never drive in a situation where im not in control”

So says (said) Josh

“I do drive safe and I will not endanger the lives of others”

A follow up thread on the crash:

.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111545&highlight=ocala (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111545&highlight=ocala)

.. complete with pictures, personally, the only way I can even tell that this pile of scrap is an automobile is by the wheels/tires in the picture

Other people more knowledgeable than me can identify bits of the wreckage as belonging to an M5, I cannot

If that is what the cars look like I will only imagine what happened to their bodies. I retired from the military after 20 years, the polite term for bodies in this condition is

“Remains non-viewable”

If you cannot figure its meaning, simply stated, the condition of the bodies is destroyed beyond any reasonable means for a mortician to put it back together,

closed-coffin funeral

I am an adult, 46 years old, I was 16 once upon a time and certainly had steel balls such as yourself , but when I was that age I drove a 3-speed flatbed Ford pickup. Not that my parents had the means, but they certainly had better sense than to put me in a car like an M3, (something comparable for the era would have been a hemi Chrysler)

I simply cannot understand over-indulgent parents that would deliberately hazard a 16-year old kid by allowing them to drive an M3, or any high-power car for that matter.

My dear young Mr. e46fanatic09, I know this thread will be lost on you and your (typical) 16-year old thick skull

“this is not me” you will say. You are right, it isn’t, but it very easily could become you. I am sure had you asked Josh, the “americanM5” M5 pilot the same question before the 26th of January this year he would have said the same thing, in fact not three hours before he was killed he did state that very thing.

Smarten-up buddy, nobody here wants to read the next tragic thread about a youngster killing himself and others while driving a BMW, we all love our BMW’s and it hits us a little harder when we hear about these things



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Thread order:



e46fanatic09's original thread;

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=199880

Josh's (americanM5) original thread;

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=111454

Follow-up thread following the crash;

http://webmail.aol.com/34865/aol/en-us/Suite.aspx

My response to e46fanatic09;

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?p=2816008#post2816008

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Peace

Jim

Good post.

Sad to say but it's just another case of the darwin award winner.

I was actually talking about this with some friends today. What the hell is a teenage kid doing in an M5? Current cars are so good, and so fast that when you do hit things, it tends to be a pretty hard hit.

I think that one of the things people miss is that a current minivan is faster than the hot cars of the 1960's.

Gruesome...but a very hard fact of life.

These kinds of cars are too dangerour for immaturaty. It will let you know when you crossed the line, as in this case.

I'm 17. I was talked to by a cop about speeding down the road. Haven't been speeding ever since. He really knocked some sense into me.

Sad to hear those news.. I heard about that accident here in Florida a while ago and it always make you think and realize that you can always get from point A to B in a decent speed. Sometimes parents don't realize giving their kids a very expensive sport car would sometimes big a bigger headache and pain than giving them a secure car to meet with their friends.

It is a shame what happened but at least you are spreading the word so people are more aware of these things..... Good Job ! and hopefully young drivers pay attention to this.......

If you feel the need to speed, Learn how to drive a car first.... Go to one of these specially design for the young drivers and adults too ---> http://www.streetsurvival.org/

why cant you see any blood or guts in the aftermath.?

I sympathyze with your plea. And what happened to these kids is a tradgedy. But let's be realistic: at the age of eighteen you think you own the world. You explore your limits, that unfortunately usually are closer than you think. When you run into your limitations you are having a learning experience. Some learning experiences are harmless. Others are not. It's all part of turning into a mature adult. Some of us never reach full maturity untill they're fifty, or even more.
So will this tragic event prevent other kids from running into harmful learning experiences? Definately not. Some kids are wiser than others. And, very important, some are luckier. I myself consider myself lucky to have reached the wise old age of 36. And if it's not an M5 that gets them into trouble, it's some drug. Or a friend with a criminal lifestyle. Or whatever. So next time some kid has a harmful learning experience, let's hope it's not your kid. Or mine. And, if that's what the OP was trying to say, don't put him in an M5 if he doesn't know his or the car's limitations. Give him some performance driving lessons on a track, and talk some sense into him. Or her, although men seem to have the majority of harmful learning experiences....

good post, thanks. it's sad but true, nothing we say (despite that lucky young man above who took a lesson from a smart officer) seems to make a difference. i'm late 40's, and also had my share of stupid incidents in my youth, that i luckily survived. now i've got two driving teenagers, a boy and a girl, and two e30's. i put my oldest in a volvo sedan when he got his license, like someone said it's a mom-mobile that's faster than anything i drove in my youth (though mom's ltd wagon with the big v-8 was amazingly fast once it got all that bulk rolling), but it's also got airbags everywhere and a lot safer than anything i ever drove. he's already bragged to me about getting it over 100, recently had to be pulled from a ditch, and for that and the other assorted other dents and dings always has a good excuse that my cynical self doesn't really believe. he says its not fair that i never taught him to drive a stick so he can't drive either of my bimmers, while his sister learned in my eta, and uses that for a daily driver (neither drives my vert). as far as i'm concerned, keeping them behind the wheel of the safest car i can afford is all i can do to keep them as safe as i can. i want to read about things we can do to keep our cars looking and running good, not about dead kids who couldn't handle them.....

This story really did change my perspective of things. I'm 18 and currently driving a 2001 tahoe. As others have already stated, a fast 6,000lb, mom mobile. Ill admit I have driven it to its limmits many times, driving 100 mph (topspeed) and actualy drifting around turns with 3 people in it. This all stopped the first time I got pulled over, about a month ago for doing 79 in a 45. To my surprise the cop let me off with a warning. He scared the shit out of me but some sense into me when he told me I'll lose my license for doing 20+ over. From then on I have slowed it down and kept it to a reasonable speed. Now I'm trying to sell my tahoe and get a 2002 330ci. Of course I'm going to start modding it right a way, but I will not speed on the streets anymore. I live about 45 minutes from Road Atlanta so I want to start going to track days to get my Passion for speed out. I learned driving fast on the street or even a closed airstrip with out propper supervision is just iggnorant. I see myself as a good driver, but I know there is sooo much to learn. I dont think its the car that made him hit that tree, but his lack of expeirence and just plain iggnorance of driving safely.

Lack of situational awareness. Had he known there was a drop he probably would've braked. -1 for the M5s lighting systems, +1 for needing to know what you're doing.

I've noticed that when I had my E30, I would flat out accelerate just to see what it would do. I had that E30 for all of my 16th year and half of my 17th. I then sold it and got my E39 with a big 4.4L V8. Oh dear, more power, more speed right?

Actually no, it's interesting. It's just the knowledge that I have all that power in reserve that I don't really have a need to use. I'll admit I've used it on occasions if I need to make some sort of manuever, but overall, I've driven more conservatively with a more powerful car. :dunno

This doesn't really matter much does it? Parents are still purchasing cars that are way to much for their kiddies to handle. Some responsibility has to be put on them as well.

My son will be driving in 2 years and if I had my way he would be driving an 89 E30 318 with a m40 1.6L with an optional airbag. Not that he wouldn't be able to kill someone else and himself in it but he would have to work a little harder at it.

I hope he has the common sense not to do something as foolish as superkid above.

As a younger person here (17) I have some advice for parents from a teenager point of view for your kids. Here's my driving story/experiences:

I have loved cars since i was a little little kid, you know, sitting on my dads lap because i couldn't reach the pedal, and steered the wheel while he worked the pedals. Then I got older and was able to reach the pedals, although for some reason always nervous to ask my dad to let me drive in a parking lot i always built up the courage to ask. We would take his car and drive it in parking lots/closed street's etc. He was not only teaching me how to drive but was definetly also letting me know when i was doing something i shouldn't be. Believe it or not this gradual learning helped me for when i actually got my license. Not only did it initally make me safer when i was learning to drive on the street but naturally i already know, although minimal, some of my limitations and knew alot of what i could do and couldn't do from previous practicality. Kind of like when a child can learn a language faster/better then an older person. In contrast although probably not smart i let me friend who has gotten his permit drive my car in a closed parking lot because his parents haven't EVER let him drive before. What i noticed was violent accelerating/braking and lack of judgment and practicality.

Now lets fast forward to when i got my full license:

You bet your ass i went fast, faster and faster day by day. I can tell you this though although as stupid as it might have been thats probably where i learned what i could and couldn't do. However that still did not stop me from going fast. The reason i went fast was because it wasn't my car. Actually it was my parent van (2001 odyssey). Although your kids might fear you if they mess up your car they dont care as much as you might think. My parents left for abroad for 6 months leaving me with their car and ill tell you... i went fast most of that time.

Skip forward to what changed me:

Everything was going great, i was getting places quicker, not getting caught. Then it hit after over a year of no tickets i got stoped for speeding. 103kph in a 60kph. Did the officer drop it? no. Did he reduce it? yes(75 in 60). Knowing what could of happened scared the shit out of me. Although this most definetly slowed me down significantly i was still going fast when i could.

The most significant change and reason why i now drive within limit,reason and sense is because of MY car, not my parents. I worked and saved up money for my dream car that i had been wanting for 2 years, a e30 325i. Right after my parents got back they were back to using their car again and i had the money to finally buy it so i jumped on it and got myself my current e30. It wasn't the greatest thing, hell it wouldn't even remotely pass safety. With no help and almost no tools i started working on it, i ended up buying all the tools i have now along the way. Not even actually knowing much about cars. I worked on it/learned when ever i could in a single unheated garage in the middle of winter (january/feb) in Canada. Id work on it no matter how tired i was, even after waking up at 6:00 for school coming back at 3:30 going to work from 4-9 then from 9 till i had to go to sleep i worked on it. After 2 solid months of non stop work i was broke, but it passed safety and was road worthy. When i finally started driving it I immediately noticed that i was driving slower, alot slower, im talking under the speed limit, in the slow lane slow. Why? because it was mine, my money, my hard work. I guess you could say i didn't want to lose what i worked so hard for. I didn't want it to break from all the crazy maneuvers i used to do before, nor the police to take my license or the car away. This is not only true for me but one of my very good friends. He in his own car will go the speed limit and be a sensible driver. As opposed to other friends who are still reckless with their parents car.

So my advice for what ever its worth (probably not very much):
Let your kid work for their car. Let them learn it inside out and earn some real appreciation for what they have. Sure buying them a car might get them better/more airbags but whats that gonna do if they aren't sensible?
Let them know what they have and what they could very well lose.


Hopefully this a more direct approach to this ever growing problem rather then just spreading the word.

Wow...

speechless. RIP to Josh & Friends..

I used to drive like this (by no means topping V10s out)...fortunitely for myself I have not killed myself or anyone with me. After the countless tickets and thousands of dollars given to the state of illinois I have realized its just not worth it. I can spend the same amount of money I do on tickets at the track and be 100% safer and not endanger anyone else's life. For anyone thats fairly young, next time you do some highway pulls with your friends take a second to think about it.

dude.. this is just sad.. :(

As a younger person here (17) I have some advice for parents from a teenager point of view for your kids. Here's my driving story/experiences:

I have loved cars since i was a little little kid, you know, sitting on my dads lap because i couldn't reach the pedal, and steered the wheel while he worked the pedals. Then I got older and was able to reach the pedals, although for some reason always nervous to ask my dad to let me drive in a parking lot i always built up the courage to ask. We would take his car and drive it in parking lots/closed street's etc. He was not only teaching me how to drive but was definetly also letting me know when i was doing something i shouldn't be. Believe it or not this gradual learning helped me for when i actually got my license. Not only did it initally make me safer when i was learning to drive on the street but naturally i already know, although minimal, some of my limitations and knew alot of what i could do and couldn't do from previous practicality. Kind of like when a child can learn a language faster/better then an older person. In contrast although probably not smart i let me friend who has gotten his permit drive my car in a closed parking lot because his parents haven't EVER let him drive before. What i noticed was violent accelerating/braking and lack of judgment and practicality.

Now lets fast forward to when i got my full license:

You bet your ass i went fast, faster and faster day by day. I can tell you this though although as stupid as it might have been thats probably where i learned what i could and couldn't do. However that still did not stop me from going fast. The reason i went fast was because it wasn't my car. Actually it was my parent van (2001 odyssey). Although your kids might fear you if they mess up your car they dont care as much as you might think. My parents left for abroad for 6 months leaving me with their car and ill tell you... i went fast most of that time.

Skip forward to what changed me:

Everything was going great, i was getting places quicker, not getting caught. Then it hit after over a year of no tickets i got stoped for speeding. 103kph in a 60kph. Did the officer drop it? no. Did he reduce it? yes(75 in 60). Knowing what could of happened scared the shit out of me. Although this most definetly slowed me down significantly i was still going fast when i could.

The most significant change and reason why i now drive within limit,reason and sense is because of MY car, not my parents. I worked and saved up money for my dream car that i had been wanting for 2 years, a e30 325i. Right after my parents got back they were back to using their car again and i had the money to finally buy it so i jumped on it and got myself my current e30. It wasn't the greatest thing, hell it wouldn't even remotely pass safety. With no help and almost no tools i started working on it, i ended up buying all the tools i have now along the way. Not even actually knowing much about cars. I worked on it/learned when ever i could in a single unheated garage in the middle of winter (january/feb) in Canada. Id work on it no matter how tired i was, even after waking up at 6:00 for school coming back at 3:30 going to work from 4-9 then from 9 till i had to go to sleep i worked on it. After 2 solid months of non stop work i was broke, but it passed safety and was road worthy. When i finally started driving it I immediately noticed that i was driving slower, alot slower, im talking under the speed limit, in the slow lane slow. Why? because it was mine, my money, my hard work. I guess you could say i didn't want to lose what i worked so hard for. I didn't want it to break from all the crazy maneuvers i used to do before, nor the police to take my license or the car away. This is not only true for me but one of my very good friends. He in his own car will go the speed limit and be a sensible driver. As opposed to other friends who are still reckless with their parents car.

So my advice for what ever its worth (probably not very much):
Let your kid work for their car. Let them learn it inside out and earn some real appreciation for what they have. Sure buying them a car might get them better/more airbags but whats that gonna do if they aren't sensible?
Let them know what they have and what they could very well lose.


Hopefully this a more direct approach to this ever growing problem rather then just spreading the word.

Good post. Im 17 and like you in a lot of ways. I was pretty reckless with my parents cars. But now i have my own I usually stick to the rules. And since now Im paying for gas I always stick it in 5th when just crusing on a 50kph road (just to save gas!!)

Good post. Im 17 and like you in a lot of ways. I was pretty reckless with my parents cars. But now i have my own I usually stick to the rules. And since now Im paying for gas I always stick it in 5th when just crusing on a 50kph road (just to save gas!!)

Yep, paying for your own car (or gas) changes everything.

im 17 as well. just bought an e28 and don't plan on breaking any rules like that. you must be responsible. these fools think it is funny to be "rolling."

good post jacksongto. people need to wake up.