I think I already know this answer since I am posting it in the Bimmerforums...

I have a Miata now...its not getting any faster (or bigger). I am an instructor and I give way to many passing signals. I have instructed in a WRX and an E30...but not an M3. I don't go 10/10s everywhere on track, but would like a car capable of doing 125+ on straightaways such as VIR...

Either car will be VERY close to stock. Probably shocks w/ stock springs, swaybars, performance alignment, intake, exhaust, chip, brake pads, RA1s on extra set of wheels...nothing too wild.

How will the two cars fair that close to stock?

Which will be better on consumables?

WRX would be more initially, its newer, awd, turbo / the M3-cheaper (never thought I'd say that) and is a very nice car overall with a *ahem* more mature following...

I also ski patrol on the weekends up in the NC mountains, which makes the WRX AWD a nice plus...on the flip side, Motorsport Connection is in town and can be a good place to have work done to the car.

Which one would be more fun?

Which one would be faster given the same driver?

Dave

If you drive in the snow there is no choice. I would never drive my M3 in the snow. I dont even like to drive it in the rain.

For the track, an STI would be prefered over a wrx, but I think I would still go with the m3 as it is much more fun to drive.

This would be easier if it was an STi vs E36 M3. STi hands down.

As an instructor, I think the M3 will be more rewarding and is a very fast car in capable hands. You would have to mod the WRX to make it more fun than the M3, but it doesn't take much to up the boost on a turbo car.

The aftermarket for the WRX is big, but not nearly as big as for the E36 M3, so you will have access to more aftermarket parts for the M3.
Also should anything happen at the track, there are always tons of people with the knowledge and parts to get you back up and running with the M3.

The size of the cars are about the same, so from a praticality stand point they are pretty even. If 4-doors are important then the WRX is a plus. You can get a 4-door M3, but they only made them in 1998 so they are harder to find. The M3 is regarded as more of a mature car than the WRX if that is important to you.

However, it seems like AWD is important to you, so that would make the WRX probably better suited to your needs unless you plan on switching to dedicated snow tires for the M3 when you go on ski patrol.

How important is AWD to you? If it is important, you may want to also consider an older Audi S4 with the 2.7T motor. Those would be in your price range, and would feature the luxory of the M3. A $500 chip in the S4 can net over 60hp.

-Scott

I've driven my car year-round the last two years here in Colorado, and I'd rather have a WRX from November to March.

The rest of the year, however, I'm much happier with the M3. I don't think it's really a fair comparison between the M3 and the WRX, M3 vs. STi is a much more realistic comparison. I think you'd find the WRX's brakes, suspension, and engine cooling lacking in longer track sessions.

Dynamically, the M3 is probably the better choice. The WRX is designed with rally in mind, and the suspension geometries do reflect that. It's hard to get negative camber, they don't have much caster designed in... But they are a fantastic year-round car.

I drove a WRX before buying the M3, as well as an S2000 and RX-8. The WRX wasn't as peppy as I was expecting, and the 'feel' is definitely not as noticeable as with the more sports-oriented cars I drove. I suspect that a change in suspension bushings would probably help that.

If you're still planning to drive the car in the winter, I wouldn't go for the M3. As it is now with my car, if we get more than 4" of snow I'm not going anywhere because of the ride height... I've got plenty of traction but no ground clearance. If you can afford to have something different to drive in the winter, I'd go for the M3 hands-down.

If I read your post correctly, basically, you want more power for the straights. An E36 M3 will give that and is more natural a progression than a WRX (from a Miata). I'm not into forced induction or all wheel drive, much less a car that began life as a front-driver (I drive an E30 but I'm still a snob :shifty), so I boldly say that you should get the M3... :)

M3 and a set of Nokian Hakkapelitas. :embarrasm

m

Thanks for the quick replies...

I think I am leaning heavily toward the M3 coupe or sedan.

I don't really ever drive in the snow...it would just be a nice plus. We always drive the wife's 4WD Escape to the mtns.

It looks like the M3 would be nice on track with Koni's, regular maintenace updated (bushings replaced in weak spots), track pads and a set of track wheels/tires. I want to keep it close to stock power for reliability reasons-all the instructors know you don't have time to work on your car during the track weekend, so if you have an issue, you will most likely lose the rest of your runs that day...

Are there any other track mods that would be deemed necessary at the advanced level? Sure, it would be nice to have Ground control coilovers and super stiff springs, rollbar, etc.-but not necessary.

Dave

WRX/STi will work as a track car, but is not ideal. Anything past a stg II level, turbo back exhaust and tune, the cooling system is unable to keep up. Even then, on hot days you will need to run 100 octane mix for safety. Even with the STi the brakes are not 100% up to full on track duty. Another problem with the WRX/STi (GD series 02-07) is the amount of tire/wheel it will take. Anything above a 245/255 is a juggling/rolling act.

If an AWD turbo car is what you want, look at the Evo. It's a track monster with cooling and brakes (with proper pads/fluid) to spare at a stg II level. Not to mention it will take 275-285s with the correct wheel and tire combo. The motors and 5 speed trannys are super stout as long as you make sure there are no boost leaks. That would be my choice for a turbo track car. I've tracked my STis, and it's more than possible, but it's much easier, cheaper, reliable to get a Evo up to track duty.

The E36 M3, properly maintenanced and upgraded, will be able to go lap after lap without too much issue. That's the benefit of N/A cars :redspot

Rob

How important is AWD to you? If it is important, you may want to also consider an older Audi S4 with the 2.7T motor. Those would be in your price range, and would feature the luxory of the M3. A $500 chip in the S4 can net over 60hp.

-Scott

Who's your dealer? I want whatever you're smoking. :stickoutt The S4 can barely do one acceleration pull before it heat soaks, let along be ready for track duty. Don't even get me started on the weight biasing and handling of that porker. :help

Rob

He said WRX not STi...
I have driven both M3, and WRX..Both in various states of suspension tune and engine tune...

The E36M3 stock, for stock, will hand a WRX its ass on a track...Unless you do a ton of suspension mods the WRX is a wallowing, understeering pig....AND its not as fast as the M3 in a straight line from a roll...Been ther smoked a few WRX's...

Mod both and the WRX is closer but the M3 will still win on a road course...

Ive driven quite a few WRX's of friends who I have worked on and modified...

I live in Asheville, and would have to say that there is rarely a snow that stops the M3. I obviously don't WANT to drive it in the snow, but it works. We really don't get much snow. And if you want 4 doors you can look for 97 as well as 98. Get the M3, straight 6's rule!

e36 M3 one one of the all time great street/track cars. With just minimal suspension upgrades you can have a car that is hugely rewarding. The level of involvement with the car and how connected you feel to it is unbelievable. Plus it is hugely forgiving and very easy to drive well.

The WRX a nice car but it is 4 -wheel drive. I've never driven a 4wd anything that is rewarding as a rwd car. That includes STIs, 911 TT, R32, Audi anything and evos. Most are very fast and can do everything very well but at the end of the day they just don't give you that sense of satisfaction that comes fro driving a rwd car fast and on the edge.

I know a lot of people would dissagree, but purely for on track driving pleasure I would take a well setup Miata any day over a brand new 911 TT. That's an extreme case but you get the idea.

How important is AWD to you? If it is important, you may want to also consider an older Audi S4 with the 2.7T motor. Those would be in your price range, and would feature the luxory of the M3. A $500 chip in the S4 can net over 60hp.

-ScottWho's your dealer? I want whatever you're smoking. :stickoutt The S4 can barely do one acceleration pull before it heat soaks, let along be ready for track duty. Don't even get me started on the weight biasing and handling of that porker. :help

Rob

http://www.giacusa.com/programs.php?mpid=59
GIAC performance software for the 2002 - 2000 B5 S4® smoothly delivers a 70-80 hp and 80-90 ft-lbs gain. For optimum perfomance the software must be coupled with a cold air intake.

I was just stating that it is easy to get extra HP out of the 2.7T S4. ;)

-Scott

http://www.giacusa.com/programs.php?mpid=59


I was just stating that it is easy to get extra HP out of the 2.7T S4. ;)

-Scott

S4 was a good street car while under warranty, but Id run from any of them nowadays.

Ever go into a shop that works on Euro cars? 4 out of 5 lifts will have a bi-turbo S4 chassis on a lift while the entire engine/front subframe is dropped to replace turbos, etc. S4 = massive money pit! Run away!

S4 was a good street car while under warranty, but Id run from any of them nowadays.

Ever go into a shop that works on Euro cars? 4 out of 5 lifts will have a bi-turbo S4 chassis on a lift while the entire engine/front subframe is dropped to replace turbos, etc. S4 = massive money pit! Run away!

Yup..modify one...My buddy just dropped 10k on his...like 450whp...

I own an E36 M3 and a 2003 WRX. Very different cars, very different driving styles.

I might favor an Sti more than my 2 liter becuase of the variable center diff. My car, (stock) lovesssssss to understeer. On the other hand, I have had a few reallly nice long slides in it, so I cant complain entirely.

I am M3 all of the way, especially for track.

4wd/turbo is much more likely to fail than Naturally aspirated/RWD.

SO many more moving parts.

BMW fo life

Coming from a Miata you will be absolutely displeased with the wrx on a track.

The M3 on the other hand is a completely different story. It will do a few things worse, and a lot of things better than your Miata ever could. You would be happy with an E36 M3, as long as you understand that you still will have to point cars by on the straights.... not as many, though. :-)

E36 M3s are just a blast to drive. However, you will spend more on maintenance than you're accustomed to.

dpspeed,

Even if you get the Scuby WRX STi, you won't be able to keep up with a stock E36 M3 sedan. I had this experience at Mid Ohio where I ran in A-group and had an STi student test what my instructor status was all about. He was good, and so was the STI, but after 20 minutes of "race pace" driving, I pulled away steadily. We were both on road tires--his car was on the stock STi Bridgestone 225/45-17s (excellent tires BTW) on 8 x 17 stock STi wheels, and I had the 235/40-17 Neovas on 8.5 wide stock 39Ms.

After our "race", he came by the garages to check out my plain E36 M3 sedan. I think he was disappointed to find my car was showroom stock with mere Neovas (not even as fast as Toyo RA1s). I complemented him on his skills and how good his AWD STi was--but he conceded "defeat" LOL.

FWIW, I'm coming from a MUCH FASTER Mazda--a '93 twin turbo type FD Rx7 R1 modded to 320 rwhp at 12 psi boost from Japan spec Efini sequential twins, so my stock E36 M3 is slow by comparison LOL.

What's great about the bimmer compared with the Mazda Rx7 R1 is the bimmer's durability and reliability. I was always tinkering with the Mazda--and in fact blew my motor at Mid Ohio (got bad gas at the BP--Apexi Power FC ECU was tuned for Sunoco 94 octane, and BP 93 didn't cut it). The M3 runs like a top session after session. No tinkering. I just add a little oil if needed, and check tire pressures--it couldn't be easier!

Pictured below: I'm in my '97 M3 sedan at Mid Ohio Sports Car Course (Mid Ohio Region PCA DE, May 2007).

dpspeed,

Even if you get the Scuby WRX STi, you won't be able to keep up with a stock E36 M3 sedan. I had this experience at Mid Ohio where I ran in A-group and had an STI student test what my instructor status was all about. He was good, and so was the STI, but after 20 minutes of "race pace" driving, I pulled away steadily. We were both on road tires--his car was on the stock STi Bridgestone 225/45-17s (excellent tires BTW) on 8 x 17 stock STi wheels, and I had the 235/40-17 Neovas on 8.5 wide stock 39Ms.

After our "race", he came by the garages to check out my plain E36 M3 sedan. I think he was disappointed to find my car was showroom stock with mere Neovas (not even as fast as Toyo RA1s). I complemented him on his skills and how good his AWD STi was--but he conceded "defeat" LOL.

FWIW, I'm coming from a MUCH FASTER Mazda--a '93 twin turbo type FD Rx7 R1 modded to 320 rwhp at 12 psi boost from Japan spec Efini sequential twins, so my stock E36 M3 is slow by comparison LOL.

I'm in my '97 M3 sedan rounding the bottom of Mid Ohio's "Madness" Turn 8. What's great about the bimmer compared with the Mazda is the bimmer's durability and reliability. I was always tinkering with the Mazda--and in fact blew my motor at Mid Ohio (got bad gas at the BP--Apexi Power FC ECU was tuned for Sunoco 94 octane, and 93 didn't cut it).

He prolly wasn't quite as good a driver as you think. In my opinion, stock for stock the STI is probably a bit faster on the track. AWD is pretty nice on the track when it comes down to lap times.

However, you have to ask yourself the question: Do I want a car that can be driven, or do I want a car that drives itself? :)

He prolly wasn't quite as good a driver as you think. In my opinion, stock for stock the STI is probably a bit faster on the track. AWD is pretty nice on the track when it comes down to lap times.

However, you have to ask yourself the question: Do I want a car that can be driven, or do I want a car that drives itself? :)I drove my ass off--so he was good enough to make me work that damned hard to pull away LOL :D

I drove my ass off--so he was good enough to make me work that damned hard to pull away LOL :D

LOL, Yeah I hear ya. Im sure it just came down to you being better. You brought up a good point though. To me it's very impressive that a well driven 240HP rwd car can hang with a 330-350hp AWD car at the track. That says a lot about the M3 as far as Im concerned.

You brought up a good point though. To me it's very impressive that a well driven 240HP rwd car can hang with a 330-350hp AWD car at the track. That says a lot about the M3 as far as Im concerned.EXACTLY, my ego not withstanding :stickoutt :D Wow I wasn't aware the Scuby WRX STi made that much horsey!!??

EXACTLY, my ego not withstanding :stickoutt :D Wow I wasn't aware the Scuby WRX STi made that much horsey!!??

They don't until you get to the Stg II level. :eyecrazy

Properly set up EVO 8 > STi at least auto x

pound 4 pound... M3

Properly set up EVO 8 > STi at least auto x

A bit off topic, but what the heck.
Let's be more specific in the debate.
Stock - STU -- Winner GD STi.
SP - SM - and up - Evo 8/9.

Why the Evo once the modifications begin, well, Evos take tyre like the day is long with no modification. Otherwise I'd take the N/A like power and rear drive like handling of the STi any day of the week for auto-x. Evos are hard to drive on the edge with supposed superior suspension they cannot use. Has anyone noticed the GH STi can now take tyre. :redspot

I lived in WS for about six months in 2006. While I was there, I had my car serviced at Motorsport Connections. You would definitely be in good hands, which for me would factor into the decision. I thought that they were a fantastic independent shop, certainly better than some others I've had experience with.

If you need a little more utility, and something that'd be fun and capable on the track in a fairly stock setup, I'd definitely go with the E36 M3 Sedan. I've had both E36 M3 coupes and sedans, and the sedan is just as capable as the coupe.

The M3 will have better brakes compared to a stock WRX(tiny brakes for the power), be faster above 60 mph than the WRX, and has a MUCH better suspension/feel than the WRX.


My car sounds like about what you'd want, and it wasn't hard/expensive to get it to this point - Koni SAs on stock springs, intake, replaced a few bushings and the front control arms/tie rods, and replaced the cooling system. It's dead reliable and pretty fun to drive.

Just put some shims on the front struts to get about -2 to -2.5 deg of camber up front to still be street friendly on the wear and the car really doesn't give understeer until you really compress the front suspension and lose camber on the outside front. Even then it is 100x easier to toss the car around and drive it close to the limit than say my 240SX, which feels like it's always ready to bite you with the power and lighter rear end(about 53/47 weight distr. now).