What is a good recommended MTL or gear oil that is not synthetic for the trans?

I have an additive that is not made to go with synthetic oil, so i would rather just a good dino oil.

Is MTL (manual trans liquid?) synthetic or just a certain type of oil? I know im looking for 75w90. Should i just go straight 75w90 gear oil?

Also, what is the amount i need to get? I cant find it in my repair manual...

-Jeff

After running Mobil 1 ATF (synth) the last couple yrs for that cold, below freezing, stiff, 1st to 2nd shifts, also general 1st into 2nd shift for that matter in my 5sp., I switched to>

"Royal Purple Synchromax" - 'High Performance Manual Transmission Fluid with Synerlec'

<this past summer. Napa stocks this and I didn't have to wait for it to be ordered. This lube stays fluid for that initial winter ice cold, morning shift when the "called for" GL-4 is thick as syrup.

The Mobil 1 started to have a rattle (I guess the trans input shaft) when idling in neutral and the clutch out. Would dis-appear with the clutch pushed in and idling in neutral.

Jeff, it's late & I hope this makes sense. It did take 2qts, but only a fraction of the 2nd qt. was used.

Dave

Jeff, Bentley's gives a pretty good rundown on oil weight depending on the weather. I had Valvoline 85w in there and couldn't get a clean 1-2 shift for the first 10-15miles till it was fully warmed up. That was when it went down into the teens. I yanked it and went with Valvoline straight 30HD motor oil. It's much better now. They write that you can go down to a 20w and/or ATF if necessary, also that at lower weights it may cause a gear whine, but will not do any harm. I have not experienced any gear whine. I plan on going back to a straight 50w in the springtime. It calls for 1 and 3/4 qt. Be careful of additives, make sure they're compatible with the synchros. Too slippery and additive can cause problems.

What is a good recommended MTL or gear oil that is not synthetic for the trans?

I have an additive that is not made to go with synthetic oil, so i would rather just a good dino oil.

Is MTL (manual trans liquid?) synthetic or just a certain type of oil? I know im looking for 75w90. Should i just go straight 75w90 gear oil?

Also, what is the amount i need to get? I cant find it in my repair manual...

-Jeff
What additive do you have? Why do you want to add it?

MTL (Manual Transmission Lubricant) is a brand name for the RedLine synthetic transmission oil. I switched to MTL and it shifts like it should, even in the cold.

You do not want the 75w90 because it is probably a hypiod GL-5 lube.

The book calls for SAE 80 non hypiod GL-4 gear lube.

Not to be confused with the SAE 80w90 hypoid GL-5 gear Lube, meant for rear axles, they are different. Read the white paper about transmission oil on the Redline site on the link below. It has to do with "yellow metal" (brass/bronze) corrosion protection and friction properties for the synchro's. Newer transmissions have eliminated the yellow metal and are using the GL-5 Lube. BMW dealers in the US are using Castrol SAF XO, which I believe is a GL-5 Lube, in everything that comes through their doors, including our cars. Now, the GL-5 Lube won't cause a transmission to fail, it just doesn't offer protection to the "yellow metal" and offer optimal shifting. But remember, our cars are no longer under warranty, so why should they care?

RedLIne White paper:
Transmission oil ------> http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/13.pdf

The book also allows, depending on temperature, straight SAE 20, SAE 30, SAE 40 motor oil to be used (Straight SAE 40 motor oil is the approx. the same weight as SAE 80 gear oil, but they use different scales and specs). (SAE 30 is only good from 0 to 86 deg., SAE40 from 68 to 122 deg. and SAE 20 from -4 to 50 deg.)

ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) is also allowed. These lighter weight options are allowed for better shifting at lower temps.

The SAE 80 non hypiod GL-4 gear lube is getting hard to find, here is a link with some sources for it and more detail on the above:
http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1561&highlight=gl4

More info:
http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2895&highlight=gl4

Im going to be putting in BG products MGC (multigear concentrate).

http://www.bgprod.com/products/images/325newRet.jpg
BG MGC®
Multi-Gear Concentrate BG MGC® is a technically advanced gear oil supplement that enhances lubricant film thickness and improves extreme pressure properties for gear surfaces and other moving parts under frictional conditions. Designed for use in all types of manual industrial transmission applications. BG MGC® offers many unique performance benefits: smooths manual transmission shifting characteristics, reduces gear box temperature, reduces component wear, improves demulsability, enhances thermal stability, extends oil service life and cuts maintenance costs. Part No. 325 6 oz. (177 mL) tube
So im going to put that with a GL5 into the gear box. I have a feeling i wont find GL4. Is there a straight GL5 non-hypoid oil? I think im just going to look at the three stores around here and compare what i find.

-Jeff

Im going to be putting in BG products MGC (multigear concentrate).

http://www.bgprod.com/products/images/325newRet.jpg
BG MGC®
Multi-Gear Concentrate BG MGC® is a technically advanced gear oil supplement that enhances lubricant film thickness and improves extreme pressure properties for gear surfaces and other moving parts under frictional conditions. Designed for use in all types of manual industrial transmission applications. BG MGC® offers many unique performance benefits: smooths manual transmission shifting characteristics, reduces gear box temperature, reduces component wear, improves demulsability, enhances thermal stability, extends oil service life and cuts maintenance costs. Part No. 325 6 oz. (177 mL) tube
So im going to put that with a GL5 into the gear box. I have a feeling i wont find GL4. Is there a straight GL5 non-hypoid oil? I think im just going to look at the three stores around here and compare what i find.

-Jeff

You sound like the commercial Jeff. http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w245/lsixer/lmao.gif

Where do you get this stuff? Sounds good to me.

hahaha...i just copy and pasted that from the site, they should pay me for direct marketing their products!!!

A friend of mine told me about the stuff. He has used it in all his trannies since a buddy of his told him to use it. His buddy has a shop and is a dealer of the BG products. My friend (George, or euroshark on roadfly), had told me about it when i was complaining of a loud trans. The tranny shifts great, its just noisy. I have a feeling that the synthetic that is in there isnt the right stuff, and i just dont like synthetic fluids in my car.

Here is how i see it. The car was designed and sent from the factory with dino fluid in ALL of the components (engine, trans, diff). The seals that are used to keep those fluids in are mostly rubber, which is petroleum based. Those seals work best with petroleum based fluids. I dont know if the fluid impregnates the seals to create a water tight bond or what, but synthetic fluid seems to get by those seals. Whether it be in the engine, trans or diff, synthetic makes it through.

So im sticking with what the manufacturer has told me use. If i can find some SAE 80 gear oil, ill be tickled to death.

-Jeff

No, you don't want the GL5 lube!

Here is a quote from another post on Pennzoil's GLS rated "Synchromesh" lube (same as GM "Synchromesh"):

--------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone keeps asking about GM's fluid - it is classified as a GLS, or "Gear Lube - Special" by API standards. Those are lubricants spec'd by the manufacturer for certain transmissions, almost always to ensure they are not damaged by using lubricants with formulas that can do harm - an example would be using a GL-5 with actuve sulphur compounds as EP agents gear lube in a tranny with "yellow" metals: bronze, copper, etc. The chemical reaction between the two can be disastrous.

GM had troubles with some of the Getrag trannies it sources from Germany, and the warranty claims get expensive.

Here is Quaker State's product description for its product which meets the same spec as GM's Synchromesh: PRODUCT DESCRIPTION QUAKER STATE®SYNCHROMESH FLUID is a synchromesh transmission fluid designed for certain manual transaxles and manual transmissions used by General Motors or Chrysler. QUAKER STATE®SYNCHROMESH FLUID is formulated with high quality paraffinic base stocks, a fluidity modifier, multifunctional performance additives, corrosion inhibitors, a foam suppressor and a shear stable viscosity index improver additive. It provides excellent oxidation stability, low temperature performance, excellent synchronizer performance and compatibility with yellow metals, such as bronze, brass and copper components found in manual transaxles and transmissions. This product will satisfactorily lubricate General Motors or Chrysler manual transaxles and transmissions from -40°C to +150°C. APPLICATION QUAKER STATE®SYNCHROMESH FLUID is specifically formulated for synchromesh transmissions used by General Motors requiring General Motors Part No. 12345349 (Specification No. 9985648) Synchromesh Transmission Fluid or Chrysler transmissions requiring Part No. 4874464 (Specification MS-9224). It is also recommended for use in General Motor transmissions requiring General Motors Part No. 12345577. It is listed in the Pennzoil Lubrication Recommendation And Capacities Guideas "GLS." QUAKER STATE®SYNCHROMESH FLUID is NOT intended for all GLS applications. You must verify the manufacturer's part number, indicated by a superscript number and found at the end of the vehicle application listing. BENEFITS Exhibits excellent low temperature performance Meets GM Specification 9985648 Suitable for use in GM manual transaxles and transmissions requiring GM part number 12345349 or 12345577. Meets Chrysler specification MS-9224 Suitable for use in Chrylser transaxles and transmissions requiring part no. 4874464 Excellent synchronizer performance Excellent yellow metal compatibility TYPICAL PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES TEST METHOD TYPICAL RESULTS API Gravity ASTM D-1298 27.3 Flash Point, COC, °F ASTM D-92 385 Pour Point, °F ASTM D-97 -50 Viscosity ASTM D-445 @ 40°C, cSt 41.6 @ 100°C, cSt 9.08 @ 100°F, SUS 209.4 @ 210°F, SUS 56.7 Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270 208 Material Number 12/1 Quart 56173 March, 2000 Stock # 59634
Analysis: Note this is a mineral , paraffinic base stock. It has additives and VI improvers, so it is essentially a kind of motor oil adapted for tranny use - no big deal, Honda used motor oils successfully in its trannies for years.

However, it does not have the advanced stock of the best ATF's, including the Dexron III/Mercon V, which are essentially Group 3 synlubes. Nor does it have the benefits of a Group IV lubricant such as a PAO (Amsoil ATF), di-basic ester (Neo), or Group V polyol ester (Red Line).

So it is subject to the same problems of ordinary mineral oils - they lube well for the mainstream, but at the extremes (cold, very hot, and under severe operating conditions such as towing, drag or track use), they are susceptible to the same shear instability, viscosity changes, as regular engine oil.

So it is my opinion that while it is a perfectly good lube, and will not harm any transmission for which it is spec'd, it is not a miracle product, and I believe (and use myself) lubricants I think offer a extra measure of performance and security:

Examples: Red Line D4 ATF; Red Line MTL
Valvoline Durablend ATF
Amsoil ATF
Mobil 1 ATF
----------------------------------------------------
Personally, I would forget the additive and go with the RedLine MTL, Advance Auto lists it in their catalog in the store so they can order it into the store and you don't have to pay shipping.

But try NAPA, they had 2 brands of GL4 in the local store here if you must use the additive.

Jeff, I am going to chime in here. As said above, don't use the GL-5! All your transmission needs is a SAE 20, 30 or 40wt motor oil (As said above). And also as said above, motor oils and gear oils use two different SAE scales, a 50 wt motor oil equals a 90wt gear. Take it from the big boys, Eaton/Fuller has for years not recommended EP (extreme pressure) additives found in most (GL-5) gear oils. They recommended 50wt motor. Even now, they market a different oil for their transmissions than they do for their differentials. You don't need the magic goop either.
Trust me, I have been selling the stuff for years (oils that is).
Bill

Sounds good guys,

Im going to go down to the tractor supply store, i think they will have what i want. But for clarification, i want SAE 80 gear oil, or SAE 30 motor oil. And that is just straight oil correct, nothing like motor oil like 10W40 or 20W50?

-Jeff

Sounds good guys,

Im going to go down to the tractor supply store, i think they will have what i want. But for clarification, i want SAE 80 gear oil, or SAE 30 motor oil. And that is just straight oil correct, nothing like motor oil like 10W40 or 20W50?

-Jeff

Jeff, Get 80wt gear only if you can get a GL-4 (non- EP type). Another place to look where I know you can get a good GL-4 is a motor cycle shop. My son used an oil made by Fuchs, it's a light gear (I can't remember the weight) that was a GL-4 in his transmissions. I had thought that when I am at the point of putting the transmission back in the car, that was what I was going to do.
Bill

Your additive says:
" .... improves extreme pressure properties for gear surfaces"

If they are using the same EP additives as the GL5 lubes use, you don't want the additive either!

Most modern transmissions have eliminated the "yellow metal" so no one worries about using the GL5 with the EP additives in them and your additive may fall in the same category, you need to find out what is in it.

The only problem I see with the straight grade motor oils is the limited temperature range, you have to change them from summer to winter and back.

so i would need a heavier weight for winter and lighter for summer or something?

-Jeff

The other way around, SAE 20 is only good from -4 to 50 deg, SAE 30 from 0 to 86 deg., and SAE 40 from 68 to 122 deg.)

ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) is also allowed. These lighter weight options are allowed for better shifting at lower temps.

The SAE 80 non hypiod GL-4 gear lube is getting hard to find, here is a link with some sources for it and more detail on the above:
http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic...&highlight=gl4 (http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1561&highlight=gl4)

More info:
http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic...&highlight=gl4 (http://bigcoupe.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2895&highlight=gl4)

I have a feeling that i am not going to find the GL-4 lube tomorrow. So if i cannot find any of that, then im going to go with MTL i think. From what i can remember, the PO of the tranny in my car put in redline fully synthetic 75w90.

-Jeff

Just found this :

Pennzoil® Gearplus® SAE 80W-90 GL-4

http://64.207.133.242:8124/products/gear_oil/images/gearplus-SAE-80W-GL4.jpg
Pennzoil® Gearplus® SAE 80W-90 GL-4 is formulated to meet the unique requirements of transmissions and differentials requiring an API GL-4 performance product.
Provides the full protection of SAE 90 viscosity grade under hard-driving conditions, while providing the low-temperature flow characteristics of SAE 80W viscosity grade necessary during cold-weather start-ups.

http://64.207.133.242:8124/products/gear_oil/index.html#GearplusGL4

I like it, hopefully i can find some of that stuff at tractor supply or the 'foregin car supply' store.

Thanks chris, that seems its exactly what im looking for.

-Jeff

Don't forget the motorcycle shops. That is where I found the Pennzoil, they were selling it over the net.

I found GL-4 at O'reilly's. I wouldn't recommend the Royal Purple if I wasn't happy with it. Had I known that Advance could order Red-Line, that's probably what I would have used.

well, i found some GL-4. But its synthetic. I was talking with the guy who owns a foreign car parts store and is a certified bosch dealer. He said that it is what he puts into his vws and audis that tend to like the GL4 better.

Im going to grab them tomorrow as it is the only thing i could find that works for me right now. Im not going to put in the BG additive though, because it is petroleum based, and will not work with synthetic very well.

We shall see how this goes!

-Jeff

so, is it acceptable to use gl-4 hypoid, as opposed to gl-4 non-hypoid?

I was able to find the gl-4 non hypoid at canyon state oil, but they'd only sell it to me in a 5 gal pail. little more than i need. price was good though. 73$.

gl-4 hypoid is avail at my napa

The trans uses 1 and 3/4 qt of oil. I have 30wt HD Valvoline motor oil in mine now and it's perfect. I'm running Valvoline DexronIII in my camaro T-5 box which is a ZF clone and that shifts just as well. Both boxes were noisy when I tried synthetic. As a comparison I'm running Valvoline VR 20x50 motor oil in the six and Valvoline synthetic 10x30 in the camaro motor. The six loves the 20x50 and seeing how it's got an oil cooler on it, I give it a full minute or two in the driveway before pulling away and go easy on it for the 1st 10mi or so to make sure it's up to temp. The camaro doesn't need more than 10x30 now until outside temps stay over 80deg., then I go to 10x40. That engine also has a cooler and needs at least 10-15mi for the oil to warm up before pounding it. Cold oil pressure on both motors is right around 65lb. Hard to say which is the better of the 2 motor oils as consumption doesn't change but I do know this. Synthetic oil in both trans and rear diffs makes tham noisy which to me = slop. The beemer motor will stay with the Dino oil forever, that's what it was design basis was. The camaro can go either way. It's the same basic motor as the vette that yr and chevy called for synthetic in the vette but regular Dino for the camaro, so go figure. The only difference was the vette mtr had aluminum heads and 5 more hp.

Hypoid is the type of gear with the curved teeth like those found in differentials where the pressure point of the tooth also moves across the tooth causing a greater shearing action. So GL-5 was specified to resist this higher shearing but the anti-corrosives for the "yellow" metal was dropped from the GL-5 spec because they are not found in differentials. When BMW states 'non-hypoid' , it just means that the higher shear strength oil is not needed for the tranny.

The GL-4 spec. doesn't require this higher grade of oil with the better shearing resistance but i'd guess from the manufacturer's point of view why go to the expense of handling 2 grades of oil, so they just use the higher grade in everything and add the anti-corrosives for the "yellow" metal to meet the GL-4 spec.

This was just asked on BigCoupe. I love the crossover of information.

Ditto on what CW6er says.

Go to a Napa parts store and buy the regular Dino oil (Sta-Lube) GL-4 oil and BUY THE PUMP for the big bottle. Makes life loads easier when filling. If your Napa doesn't have it, they can get it with no shipping cost in a day. It's a regular stock item.

Jose

Can I assume the auto just uses atf? I don't have an owners manual so I figure it shouldn't hurt to ask...

excellent. i am the cause of the duplicate info on both sites...in hindsight, not necessary to ask it twice...

so, is it acceptable to use gl-4 hypoid, as opposed to gl-4 non-hypoid?

I was able to find the gl-4 non hypoid at canyon state oil, but they'd only sell it to me in a 5 gal pail. little more than i need. price was good though. 73$.

gl-4 hypoid is avail at my napa

From an old oil salesman's point of view, I will say no. Here is why.
The trans does not need (and many do not want) the ep or hypoid additives found in most gear oils. A good example of this is Fuller/Eaton. Being an old trucker, and having used a ton of their transmissions and differentials, I believe what they say. They always specified a non-ep lube in their transmissions. What many companies did for years was to use 50wt motor oil.
As a side light, motor oils and gear oils are graded on two different SAE scales. Essentially, what this means is 50wt motor has the same thickness as 90wt gear. Any other cross overs, I will have to find my old books.

The main reason an EP type oil is not needed in any transmission is going to be somewhat hard to explain, but here goes. OK, this does not count when the trans is in reverse. If you look at the rotational force, the input and output shafts turn the same way. Even though the power goes from the input, down through the intermediate shaft and back up to the output, the rotational force is always in the same direction.
Now look at a differential. The rotational force goes in to the unit, makes a ninety degree turn and comes out. This change in rotational force causes extreme pressure on the gear faces, consequently---E.P (extreme pressure) additives.
Back to Fuller; their thought was that the EP additives were not good for the soft metal components of their boxes (brass, copper, and the like). Works for me.
In conclusion of this from the hip explanation, a motor oil will work just fine if you can't find a non-hypoid oil.

Can I assume the auto just uses atf? I don't have an owners manual so I figure it shouldn't hurt to ask...


Yup, Dexron in the Auto tranny, and you use it in the hydraulic reservoir also.