I am sure that there are members on here who know a lot about building software as well as the computer language necessary to both build software and decode the OBDI and OBDII DMEs.

I don't have this knowledge but some out there do. How hard would it be for someone else on here to build a DME Editor. People are sick of waiting for Jim Conforti. :mad

-Why can't you switch to MAP with the stock DME?
-Why can't you run larger low impedence injectors for more power with the stock DME?

Somebody build and sell the software. I dare you! :shifty

Ain't happening Cam.


As for the question about low impedance injectors, its probably a two-fold issue.

1) P&H Requirement
2) Scaling variable

Low-Z injectors won't work on a high-z system without the aid of a P&H box, since they sink a lot of current and saturate, so that's actually a hardware issue. It'd only require buying a P&H box either commercial or one of the new DIY units that are available (not a plug). Edit: you can use resistors, but this isn't the proper way to handle low-z injectors and their "speed" is lost.

The injector scaling is just a hunch. Because the ECU was designed around a specific requirement, or at least around a semi-specific requirement, it may not have as much leeway as is necessary. For instance, let's say that a scaling value of "1" lets you run stock size injectors but the car needs 1000cc injectors, that may require a scaling amount 8x that of the original value. That may be out of the scope of what the engineers originally allowed. This is all hypothetical and I don't know enough about the specifics of the system to fully evaluate it, but it's a hunch, as if it were just a matter of sticking a number in a box to match to injector size we'd see a lot of 75, 90, 95, 100, 120# injectors being used, but we don't.

You probably need to scale the fuel tables because they probably have only a finite amount of resolution per cell. For instance MegaSquirt allows you to select from 255 different amounts of fuel per cell. It also allows you to scale the table. So if a car came from the factory with 17# injectors and utilized the full range of values (0 - 255) from the factory, you couldn't change injector size without changing the multiplicative value for injection as you cannot go over 255 units of injection. So instead, if my fuel injector value was 20 with stock injectors, it might be 6 now, and I can actually still use the factory fuel map with much larger injectors without any changes (other than mechanical/flowing characteristics of the new injectors).

I think those are the two limitations for the most part.

As for MAP compatibility it depends on what is necessary. If you are talking about metering the air based on MAP then I don't know that it would be so easy as the entire ECU is based around using a flow sensor, so a lot of math would need to be changed. If you mean to use a MAP sensor for something like over-boost protection or something, that'd be easy because you could get a sensor to output a specific voltage at a specific pressure, and when that output goes high/low, it can be an input to the Motronic and trigger fuel cut. Again I don't know how it'd be done, but I am sure you could trigger the "rev limiter" based on pressure, and you'd be able to keep things in check.

But I don't expect anyone to step up and make an editor because the community does not lend itself to that. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

As nice as a BMW specific editor would be-- The market just isn't there.

I did hear word of Mark Mansur supporting BMW applications in TunerPro through the grapevine, thanks to one of our more knowledgeable members here. With any luck the trace function will be functional too-- I just don't see the trace part happening.

Thanks for the info so far. I knew a P&H unit would be needed for the larger injectors but the whole scaling part of it sounds very complicated. 750-900whp on the stock ECU would be great but I guess it maxes out around 633whp on a Dynojet which is the highest I know of.

Yes I meant MAP for measured air just because the MAFs seem to max out before 650whp. :(

As nice as a BMW specific editor would be-- The market just isn't there.

I did hear word of Mark Mansur supporting BMW applications in TunerPro through the grapevine, thanks to one of our more knowledgeable members here. With any luck the trace function will be functional too-- I just don't see the trace part happening.Unfortunately, Mark told me he could not help in October. I hope you are correct, and someone changed his mind.

Thanks for the info so far. I knew a CDI unit would be needed for the larger injectors but the whole scaling part of it sounds very complicated. 750-900whp on the stock ECU would be great but I guess it maxes out around 633whp on a Dynojet which is the highest I know of.

Yes I meant MAP for measured air just because the MAFs seem to max out before 650whp. :(
Umm... Cam... CDI to run Peak and Hold?

Thanks for the info so far. I knew a CDI unit would be needed for the larger injectors but the whole scaling part of it sounds very complicated. 750-900whp on the stock ECU would be great but I guess it maxes out around 633whp on a Dynojet which is the highest I know of.

Yes I meant MAP for measured air just because the MAFs seem to max out before 650whp. :(A paltry 633whp. Hardly worth the trouble of turboing if you're only going to see a 400whp gain. :stickoutt

Umm... Cam... CDI to run Peak and Hold?
edited sorry. two stupid external boxes and mixed them. :shifty

Thanks for the info so far. I knew a CDI unit would be needed for the larger injectors but the whole scaling part of it sounds very complicated. 750-900whp on the stock ECU would be great but I guess it maxes out around 633whp on a Dynojet which is the highest I know of.

Yes I meant MAP for measured air just because the MAFs seem to max out before 650whp. :(

633 rwhp SAE is the highest on pump fuel on 19psi. There is still more head room avaliable.

We are in the process of building a similiar car with an Aquamist High System 5 kit, pump fuel with meth utilizing Nick G's custom software. We are estimating 700 + rwhp with a stock DME tune. :)

-George

633 rwhp SAE is the highest on pump fuel on 19psi. There is still more head room avaliable.

We are in the process of building a similiar car with an Aquamist High System 5 kit, pump fuel with meth utilizing Nick G's custom software. We are estimating 700 + rwhp with a stock DME tune. :)

-George
413 DME?
Draw Thru?
What turbo?
Do you have to use a special BOV?
Would I be able to pull it off with my intake manifold?

I might want to purchase that chip from Nick G. I will be using a 67mm turbo similiar in size to the GT4094R. I plan to purchase an alkycontrol.com methanol kit. Is your methanol kit better and where is there information on it? Can Nick G. do a second tune without the methanol for lower boost as another chip or two sockets switching from one chip to the other?

:eatpop:

:eatpop:

You know something we don't know!

413 DME?
Draw Thru?
What turbo?
Do you have to use a special BOV?
Would I be able to pull it off with my intake manifold?

I might want to purchase that chip from Nick G. I will be using a 67mm turbo similiar in size to the GT4094R. I plan to purchase an alkycontrol.com methanol kit. Is your methanol kit better and where is there information on it? Can Nick G. do a second tune without the methanol for lower boost as another chip or two sockets switching from one chip to the other?

I would have to ask him. Let me finish this next build and lets see where it ends up for power. Gt4094r will be the choice of turbo, 24-25 psi will be the max.

-George

let just sit around for another 2 years as it been promises to us before...such fucking bullshit....the price thats charged your better off going with a standalone. i got tired of being jerked off. if you custom tune the dme your at the mercy of like 4 qualified people that have the knowledge and experience to do it correctly. i dont like having such few options because as i have seen people abuse it because of this monopoly effect:mad:banghead:

I think I know who will own that monster Georgy! We will be reading about this build in no time!

-Why can't you switch to MAP with the stock DME?

Somebody build and sell the software. I dare you! :shifty

The way the stock DME calculates load is very different. It is designed for a MAF based system where the air mass flow is well known.

The reality is that to make a DME editor you really need someone with an EECS background. With BMW constantly changing ECUs, the reward for making this software is not there.

The way the stock DME calculates load is very different. It is designed for a MAF based system where the air mass flow is well known.

The reality is that to make a DME editor you really need someone with an EECS background. With BMW constantly changing ECUs, the reward for making this software is not there.

And logistical support would be a nightmare. If I had the knowladge, I would never release an editor and continue to sell chips and tunes based on existing hardware.

It is not a 'someone' thing either. You have to know engine theory, ECM theory, EE background, and CS backgound. It takes either a team, good connections, or a genius to do all that by himself. Jim and Nick are really the only one there right now and they have been working on these DMEs for over 10 years now.

I think I know who will own that monster Georgy! We will be reading about this build in no time!

:devillook:devillook:devillook.......

Is there any money in this? Has anyone done any kind of back of the envelope calculations as to how one might go around selling the editor?

Maybe a better way to start would be to copy the business model of a successful domestic stock ECU tuning company?

There's really not much money in it, but that's the point. Look how cheap Hondata/Crome/DSMLink, etc are. For every 1 bmw looking to edit their tune there are 100 of those cars doing it. We have people here at work that could do it but there just isn't money in it. The guys on here who could give out the info won't, because they depend on selling $600 - $1000 pieces of software.

-Why can't you switch to MAP with the stock DME?you can, its just a real pain in the ass to rewrite that much of the ECU. Also very unnecessary.
-Why can't you run larger low impedence injectors for more power with the stock DME?
That is a hardware limitation. The stock ECU is designed to run low impedance injectors. currently that limits us to 65 lb/hr injectors. :dunno I don't see that as much of a "problem"

This is all hypothetical and I don't know enough about the specifics of the system to fully evaluate it, but it's a hunch, as if it were just a matter of sticking a number in a box to match to injector size we'd see a lot of 75, 90, 95, 100, 120# injectors being used, but we don't.
we see calibrations for 17's, 21.5's, 24's, 30's, 36's, 42's, 50's, 55's, and 60's. :dunno The "number in a box" thing works ok for me.

You probably need to scale the fuel tables because they probably have only a finite amount of resolution per cell. For instance MegaSquirt allows you to select from 255 different amounts of fuel per cell. It also allows you to scale the table. So if a car came from the factory with 17# injectors and utilized the full range of values (0 - 255) from the factory, you couldn't change injector size without changing the multiplicative value for injection as you cannot go over 255 units of injection. So instead, if my fuel injector value was 20 with stock injectors, it might be 6 now, and I can actually still use the factory fuel map with much larger injectors without any changes (other than mechanical/flowing characteristics of the new injectors).
you don't scale the fuel tables for the injector. The numbers are 0-255 in each cell, but that resolution does not need to be used for scaling for injector changes.

As a fun hypothetical math problem, if we assume the stock injector uses a 16 bit number like 44000 for 17 lb/hr injectors. now say we want to run 51 lb/hr injectors. 44000*(17/51) = 14667. If we continue with math in this trend, when does that constant become zero?

But I don't expect anyone to step up and make an editor because the community does not lend itself to that. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.
that is correct, there is no support for an editor. This is because there is not enough community support. We've tried that and it failed miserably.

As nice as a BMW specific editor would be-- The market just isn't there.

I did hear word of Mark Mansur supporting BMW applications in TunerPro through the grapevine, thanks to one of our more knowledgeable members here. With any luck the trace function will be functional too-- I just don't see the trace part happening.

The trace is not easy to implement generically. Doing it for small windows will be tedious. Its probably best to make the windowed range the entire data segment of the ECU and sort the hits out on the PC side.

Yes I meant MAP for measured air just because the MAFs seem to max out before 650whp. :(
you can get a MAF for whatever flow you could want.

You know something we don't know!
understatement? ;)

let just sit around for another 2 years as it been promises to us before...such fucking bullshit....the price thats charged your better off going with a standalone. i got tired of being jerked off. if you custom tune the dme your at the mercy of like 4 qualified people that have the knowledge and experience to do it correctly. i dont like having such few options because as i have seen people abuse it because of this monopoly effect:mad:banghead:
how is there a monopoly? and if there is, why is that the case? Economics says that the price is determined by the market, no? If the market were big enough to support a company charging $12 for a flash, there would be one, no?

Is there any money in this? Has anyone done any kind of back of the envelope calculations as to how one might go around selling the editor?

Maybe a better way to start would be to copy the business model of a successful domestic stock ECU tuning company?
I bet the big guys in the domestic market have done the calculations on if its worthwhile to go after markets like BMW... and there is a reason they aren't.

The business model of the successful domestic ECU tuning guys is based on some big numbers. Numbers that are drastically smaller in the BMW market. If we used the same economic principles, they could do it, but it wouldn't be a $500 flash, it'd be a $50,000 flash. and thats being generous saying that they'd only sell 100 domestic flash devices to every BMW one they sell. I bet that number is significantly more skewed.

you don't scale the fuel tables for the injector. The numbers are 0-255 in each cell, but that resolution does not need to be used for scaling for injector changes.

As a fun hypothetical math problem, if we assume the stock injector uses a 16 bit number like 44000 for 17 lb/hr injectors. now say we want to run 51 lb/hr injectors. 44000*(17/51) = 14667. If we continue with math in this trend, when does that constant become zero?Of course, those numbers are purely hypothetical since everybody knows that tuning the stock dme is a mysterious art about which a professional tuner such as yourself would not reveal secrets.

-Why can't you switch to MAP with the stock DME?

you can, its just a real pain in the ass to rewrite that much of the ECU. Also very unnecessary.


It's necessary for us top mount guys :(.

<- wants a TRM tune badly but can't fit a dang HFM in front of the turbo.

It's necessary for us top mount guys :(.

<- wants a TRM tune badly but can't fit a dang HFM in front of the turbo.

Go blowthrough, I don't understand why you wouldn't. Get better accuracy and faster response.

Go blowthrough, I don't understand why you wouldn't. Get better accuracy and faster response.

In short that was kinda the reasoning behind my post. To my knowledge, Mike doesn't offer any blow-through solutions. My car currently has a TEC3 w/ a map sensor and I'm not entirely fond of it...

we see calibrations for 17's, 21.5's, 24's, 30's, 36's, 42's, 50's, 55's, and 60's. :dunno The "number in a box" thing works ok for me.


So is it MAF limitation that keeps people from making big numbers on the stock ECU then? I have never seen anyone go over 60 or 75# injectors. Is it because the MAFs available cannot support the power (thus switching to MAP as Cameron mentioned) or is it because that size of injector does not work well with the ECU?


If 17# = 44000 (i don't know if you made that up or not but either way) and its a 16 bit #, does that mean that any integer is supported? 160# would be 4675? How do you control opening time, closing time? Is that adjustable?

If 17# = 44000 (i don't know if you made that up or not but either way) and its a 16 bit #, does that mean that any integer is supported? 160# would be 4675? How do you control opening time, closing time? Is that adjustable?No; You would never get it to idle properly; With a change to the bin; and Yes.

So is it MAF limitation that keeps people from making big numbers on the stock ECU then? I have never seen anyone go over 60 or 75# injectors. Is it because the MAFs available cannot support the power (thus switching to MAP as Cameron mentioned) or is it because that size of injector does not work well with the ECU?
There is no MAF limitation. you can use any 0-5v MAF you want. There is no reason you can't make 4000 hp on a MAF based setup.

If 17# = 44000 (i don't know if you made that up or not but either way) and its a 16 bit #, does that mean that any integer is supported? 160# would be 4675? How do you control opening time, closing time? Is that adjustable?
what high impedance 160's are available? Most people don't use what isn't available.

and yes, everything is adjustable.

Can you go low-impedance+resistor box on the stock ecu?

what high impedance 160's are available? Most people don't use what isn't available.

and yes, everything is adjustable.

I never mentioned resistance - you picked that up in your interpretation. Everything I've been talking about is simply theory. But now that you mention it, using low impedance with resistors should have a similar effect. Or using a P&H box on a factory ECU would also work.

Does that change the question any? Assuming they were 14 ohm, would 4675 work and do you have any method for controlling opening and closing time?

Assuming they were 14 ohm, would 4675 work and do you have any method for controlling opening and closing time?

yes

Michael, care to answer whether they'll be a 'blow-through' option in the near future? I know that Cameron and I can't be the only topmount people wanting a DME tune...

yes

a man of many words


thx

That is a hardware limitation. The stock ECU is designed to run low impedance injectors. currently that limits us to 65 lb/hr injectors. :dunno I don't see that as much of a "problem".

you can get a MAF for whatever flow you could want.
Thank you for answering my questions Mike!

So it has nothing to do with the MAF/HFM but it has to do with the DME needing the injectors to be high impedence.

You don't see much of a problem because you don't need 700whp+.
Can you go low-impedance+resistor box on the stock ecu?
+1
BINGO!

This was never answered AFAIK. :dunno

If someone finds high impedence 75lbers...how much whp can those support on our 2.8-3.2L engines? If it can do 750whp then sign me up Mike or george at ICS with another tune for 91 octane. I can live with that.

Michael, care to answer whether they'll be a 'blow-through' option in the near future? I know that Cameron and I can't be the only topmount people wanting a DME tune...

I guess I can grab a ford MAF of some flavor and mount it in an appropriate sized pipe. The only issue is the time associated with building another maf function (or functions for different sized pipes). for that to make sense, I'd need to just charge hourly. I'd really prefer those be done in person too.

ive used $2 inline 10w 10ohm resistors many times to run 450cc p&h injectors from an eclipse on my cars

I guess I can grab a ford MAF of some flavor and mount it in an appropriate sized pipe. The only issue is the time associated with building another maf function (or functions for different sized pipes). for that to make sense, I'd need to just charge hourly. I'd really prefer those be done in person too.

Ya hear that Cam'? Get in line buddy! It can be done :alright

Ya hear that Cam'? Get in line buddy! It can be done :alright
:lol

Well Nick G. already does the blow-thru MAF and from what George is saying...will probably make over 700whp easy. :devillook

ive used $2 inline 10w 10ohm resistors many times to run 450cc p&h injectors from an eclipse on my cars

Yep that works though I've used higher wattage more like 25 - 50w, they get hot as crap during long drives.
:lol

Well Nick G. already does the blow-thru MAF and from what George is saying...will probably make over 700whp easy. :devillook

That'd be super sweet, but the only negative would be that if you did decide to want to do something later, you're totally locked down with a specific tuner and setup :(

:lol

Well Nick G. already does the blow-thru MAF and from what George is saying...will probably make over 700whp easy. :devillook

Doesn't that still use the Porsche MAF that will eventually be the limitation?

If a large Ford unit or other 0-5v can be used and tuned for, along with gigantic high impedance injectors and a resistor box, sounds like anything is possible with the stock DME, its just going to take some pioneers with funds to pay someone to figure it out..

I swear, if we had just 100 Camerons, we'd be SOOOO much closer to the Supra guys.. :stickoutt

That'd be super sweet, but the only negative would be that if you did decide to want to do something later, you're totally locked down with a specific tuner and setup :(
Very true, but I am getting old and I have a feeling that 700ishwhp with full boost for at least 4000rpm and the car running and starting like it was from the factory...plus a switch for just a 91 octane tune. I think I will be done.

so when you pay one of these guys hundreds for a chip or reflash or whatever, then you want to say up your boost, do they expect full price for a modified chip of them guessing what your cars gona need again?


i think im gona sell my car or get a fmu lol

Very true, but I am getting old and I have a feeling that 700ishwhp with full boost for at least 4000rpm and the car running and starting like it was from the factory...plus a switch for just a 91 octane tune. I think I will be done.

I hear you Cameron - has anyone proven a table switch feature yet?

that is correct, there is no support for an editor. This is because there is not enough community support. We've tried that and it failed miserably.

Please expound on this. What price point do you feel you would need to sell these at to make a profit? What failed miserably?



how is there a monopoly? and if there is, why is that the case? Economics says that the price is determined by the market, no? If the market were big enough to support a company charging $12 for a flash, there would be one, no?

You all have a monopoly. I concur that price is determined by the market, but your example is an extreme generalization. In fact, I am sure you collude. In a market such as this, its to be expected, and imo, benefits the consumer.

My theory is if you guys found a way to get together to produce an editor, in the long run it would increase your business.

My theory is if you guys found a way to get together to produce an editor, in the long run it would increase your business.
nobody here wants to share data

anybody thought of making a converter box so they can remove the HFM?

adding 2 MAP's, a Air intake temp sensor, connecting to a 8051 and a DtoA on the output that is fed to the ECU.
12-20mhz (the main ECU processor runs at 20mhz) should be plenty fast.
The HMF can also be plugged in to th 8051 and have it average the 2 voltages

nobody here wants to share data



"You guys" means all the guys who tune now, who I am assuming you are refering to as the people who dont share data.

The could get together and market an editor. Tons of people will realize they can't tune anyway, and still go to them for tunes. I want some control, I don't want a final tune. They would win on the front end and the back end. :)

how is there a monopoly? and if there is, why is that the case? Economics says that the price is determined by the market, no? If the market were big enough to support a company charging $12 for a flash, there would be one, no?
tough to argue with the latter part
most rational supplies in a market that has low supply and high demand understand the leverage they have...because of this we end up with a monopoly though. maybe if i were in the other shoes id have a different take on it:dunno
My theory is if you guys found a way to get together to produce an editor, in the long run it would increase your business.
+elevtybillion
you guys could have had my 3000 instead of aem

"You guys" means all the guys who tune now, who I am assuming you are refering to as the people who dont share data.

The could get together and market an editor. Tons of people will realize they can't tune anyway, and still go to them for tunes. I want some control, I don't want a final tune. They would win on the front end and the back end. :)
well i have asked for data to be verified or pointer in the right direction. i either get no answer or the answer along the lines of "i can tell you, i'm sure you understand." like i'm going to try to steal their market for tunning a 16 year old car that was made for 1 year in 2 models :rolleyes right!

On a related topic... I have always failed to see what BMW NA stands to lose by releasing.... or even leaking... the info we need to get into the stock DME. It is old technology by current automotive standards. I am certain that none of their new cars use anything like it.

We need a disgruntled employee like Nissan had back in the day. :D

I would have to ask him. Let me finish this next build and lets see where it ends up for power. Gt4094r will be the choice of turbo, 24-25 psi will be the max.

-George
:nono

GT4088R

:nono

GT4088R
You evil bastard! :complain

whys it gota be about money and business, why cant it just be for the love of the "sport" like they did for the honda/dsm crowd. :thumbup:


megasquirt here i come

whys it gota be about money and business, why cant it just be for the love of the "sport" like they did for the honda/dsm crowd. :thumbup:


megasquirt here i come
Because sometimes people want to be compensated for the hundreds of hours they've spent figuring out how everything works. There's a lot more than just the maps.

Because sometimes people want to be compensated for the hundreds of hours they've spent figuring out how everything works. There's a lot more than just the maps.

Some of the worlds best software engineering has been done for free.

I don't want to take this into a ECU vs ECU thread, but fwiw, the entire MS platform is regularly updated and developed for free. Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo, the founders, give their schematic out for free. The developers for the "extra" firmware don't charge a thing. Its a crazy concept! They do it because they love it.

I guess I can grab a ford MAF of some flavor and mount it in an appropriate sized pipe. The only issue is the time associated with building another maf function (or functions for different sized pipes). for that to make sense, I'd need to just charge hourly. I'd really prefer those be done in person too.

That'll work. Drop me a PM if you don't mind with a rough idea of how many hours you'd guesstimate. I have no problem dropping the car off.

Some of the worlds best software engineering has been done for free.

I don't want to take this into a ECU vs ECU thread, but fwiw, the entire MS platform is regularly updated and developed for free. Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo, the founders, give their schematic out for free. The developers for the "extra" firmware don't charge a thing. Its a crazy concept! They do it because they love it.
And nobody makes money off selling the hardware? There's always a business model somewhere.

Even lots of open source projects have companies that make money off of customizing/consulting fees. There's always money somewhere. Not always to the people that work on it, but there IS money.

you serious? no one is gona give away hardware what do you expect. i think there prices are very reasonable. and you can get free consulting on the internet for ms.

you serious? no one is gona give away hardware what do you expect. i think there prices are very reasonable. and you can get free consulting on the internet for ms.

how is hardware different than software?

How do you control opening time, closing time? Is that adjustable?

The stock DME does not have any limitation for adjusting fuel variables. Just like any other stand alone/piggy back, you can alter the injector latency, size, pulsewidth, etc.etc. :nono

And nobody makes money off selling the hardware? There's always a business model somewhere.

Even lots of open source projects have companies that make money off of customizing/consulting fees. There's always money somewhere. Not always to the people that work on it, but there IS money.

They make money off of hardware, but in terms of buying the boards from a PCB manufacturer and packaging the kit. Its licensed to B&G, they can't modify it, only distribute it. @ $189 for a unassembled kit you're not making much money on a kit at that point! Assembled units and or surface mount units cost more only because there is both labor and more expensive manufacturing.

how is hardware different than software?

Hardware has raw materials... this is an easy concept lol. Last time I checked, when I installed Ubuntu, I didn't need to buy sensors or PCBs or ignition drivers, or aluminum extruded cases.

You seriously think hardware is no different than software?

For instance - a member just made a P&H board DIY. He is selling the boards for $20 ea. They are screen printed. Of course he might be making a buck or two, but having a custom sized screen printed PCB printed is just about $15 - $20 ea. He has extremely low volume made (almost to order) so I can't see how that is similar to software!

What's it cost to use your software if you didn't charge anyone? Nothing. It's flashed, its done, thanks gbye.

You could use schematics for a free nuclear warhead, its still going to cost you money in materials. Its the whole tangible vs intangible thing :confused

The stock DME does not have any limitation for adjusting fuel variables. Just like any other stand alone/piggy back, you can alter the injector latency, size, pulsewidth, etc.etc. :nono

Don't shake your finger @ me, I was asking not accusing.:nono

A lot of people seem to be having a difficult time grasping the concept of "intellectual property". The fact remains if someone spends the time and effort developing an "intangible" (be it software or music or a novel), then they own that intangible and can do with it as they seem fit. They can give it away for free or charge millions of dollars for it, and that's their right.

It looks like a lot of people here want someone else to put in the time and effort necessary to crack into the BMW OBD-II DMEs and then reap the rewards for themselves for little or no money. The fact that it's just "software" or "intangible" is irrelevant. That's like saying I should be able to buy Windows Vista for a buck because that's how much the DVDs it comes on cost, since the software itself has no physical properties.

In the end, if someone wants to spend the necessary hours to develop a DIY editor for OBD-II, then more power to them. If they decide to charge five bucks or fifty-thousand for its use, then that's their decision. I'll neither praise nor vilify them for whatever route they choose.

A lot of people seem to be having a difficult time grasping the concept of "intellectual property". The fact remains if someone spends the time and effort developing an "intangible" (be it software or music or a novel), then they own that intangible and can do with it as they seem fit. They can give it away for free or charge millions of dollars for it, and that's their right.

It looks like a lot of people here want someone else to put in the time and effort necessary to crack into the BMW OBD-II DMEs and then reap the rewards for themselves for little or no money. The fact that it's just "software" or "intangible" is irrelevant. That's like saying I should be able to buy Windows Vista for a buck because that's how much the DVDs it comes on cost, since the software itself has no physical properties.

In the end, if someone wants to spend the necessary hours to develop a DIY editor for OBD-II, then more power to them. If they decide to charge five bucks or fifty-thousand for its use, then that's their decision. I'll neither praise nor vilify them for whatever route they choose.

There is no misunderstanding. Techno550 was saying "how is hardware different than software." In licensing it can be the exact same. However, if you license software free to use and open source, then you don't need to purchase ANYTHING to use it, ever. If you need internet access to download, then ok, thats an expense, but if you found it on the ground you could put it in your computer should you have one and bam, no expense.

Hardware, whether the plans are open/free or not, will cost you money to implement. You will not find a universal PCB sitting in the "Free PCB" store. This is a losing argument - I am a very strong supporter of open source licensing and GPL and use it whenever I can. The hardware schematics that are free to use are just that - free to use. They are not free to implement, or free to change and sell, just free to use.

This is not a new concept at all - people who put in the effort of making a hardware/software package for free do gain from it - how do you think open source thrives? Sure the project might not pay, but the experience/resume aspect of doing such work pays off big time. Ubuntu is all the way up to 7.10 now... the other dozen or most releases were just as free as this one, so somehow individuals are developing this operating system with nothing in mind but the community, and are providing their family with dinner. It doesn't mean you drop your career for programming a DME editor - do it in your spare time, but if you can't keep the community in mind when doing it, then don't do it because no one wants a martyr.

There's nothing to lose by doing it - the community wins, the individual wins, and business thrives. I was just responding to techno550 when he said there was no difference in hardware/software, no not in the licensing, but cost is always going to incur when dealing with hardware be it open, closed, proprietary, etc.

I swear, if we had just 100 Camerons, we'd be SOOOO much closer to the Supra guys.. :stickoutt

If the E36 crowd lost this hard-on they have for the stock DME and TEC3 we would be alot closer too.

How many of the big supra guys are tuning their stock ECU's or running TEC3's......

My car with my standalone I tuned myself starts and runs cold much better than my car did with my OEM tune, or with the Dinan blower tune I had. The AA turbo tune is about the same, but required a bunch of extra boxes to fool the ECU. (MAF clamp, tieing O2's together etc).


Oh yea, that and if we could spin these things to 8500rpm easily and had room in the back for 315's stock ;)....

If the E36 crowd lost this hard-on they have for the stock DME and TEC3 we would be alot closer too.

How many of the big supra guys are tuning their stock ECU's or running TEC3's......

:handclap:

It looks like a lot of people here want someone else to put in the time and effort necessary to crack into the BMW OBD-II DMEs and then reap the rewards for themselves for little or no money.

You must understand that it's not that everyone with the 'demand' is simply being lazy. As we all know, the level of specialized education needed to create an editor is beyond some of our reach. If all it took was free time, I would be willing to give it a shot. However, the schooling and training alone means that if I DID ever get to that point, our cars would be 45 years old.

We are simply trying to get the right people for the job motivated to make something like this. We already know that they are somewhat passionate about what they do. It's not like we are asking for a free product.... I know the majority of us would pay a pretty penny for a DME editor.

If we are more than willing to drop 1,300 on a one time, off the shelf tune with only WOT revisions.... Just imagine the value of an editor. How much would you pay for it? Compare it to a TEC 3R. Look at the price, then ask the guys using it how their driveability is. Most are not completely happy with it.

I was just responding to techno550 when he said there was no difference in hardware/software, no not in the licensing, but cost is always going to incur when dealing with hardware be it open, closed, proprietary, etc.

From a business perspective, there is absolutely no difference between hardware and software.

You think software doesn't cost anything to make? :confused

There is no misunderstanding. Techno550 was saying "how is hardware different than software." In licensing it can be the exact same. However, if you license software free to use and open source, then you don't need to purchase ANYTHING to use it, ever. If you need internet access to download, then ok, thats an expense, but if you found it on the ground you could put it in your computer should you have one and bam, no expense.

Hardware, whether the plans are open/free or not, will cost you money to implement. You will not find a universal PCB sitting in the "Free PCB" store. This is a losing argument - I am a very strong supporter of open source licensing and GPL and use it whenever I can. The hardware schematics that are free to use are just that - free to use. They are not free to implement, or free to change and sell, just free to use.

This is not a new concept at all - people who put in the effort of making a hardware/software package for free do gain from it - how do you think open source thrives? Sure the project might not pay, but the experience/resume aspect of doing such work pays off big time. Ubuntu is all the way up to 7.10 now... the other dozen or most releases were just as free as this one, so somehow individuals are developing this operating system with nothing in mind but the community, and are providing their family with dinner. It doesn't mean you drop your career for programming a DME editor - do it in your spare time, but if you can't keep the community in mind when doing it, then don't do it because no one wants a martyr.

There's nothing to lose by doing it - the community wins, the individual wins, and business thrives. I was just responding to techno550 when he said there was no difference in hardware/software, no not in the licensing, but cost is always going to incur when dealing with hardware be it open, closed, proprietary, etc.

I must be missing something in your argument. If I understand it correctly, it goes like this:

Open source software = free to all
Open source hardware = minimal costs to all
Open source in general = win
Proprietary anything = lose

It seems you're still vilifying anyone who decides to take the proprietary route to tuning on BMW's. I see it as their right to take the fruits of their labor and do with them as they please. Anyone one who decides to charge for a DME editor for BMW's that they developed should no more be made a pariah than any other software company that charges for their product.

I believe that coming up with such a product goes beyond something that can be done in one's "spare time". If that were the case, then it would already be out on the market.

The Megaquirt analogy doesn't fit either. Bowling and Grippo do make money on each board they sell (they admit as much here.) (http://www.megasquirt.info/MS%20FAQ.htm#pcb) Granted, it may not be very much, but profit is profit is profit, and they do exert control over their creation. Do you honestly believe that they would allow someone to sell copied boards for ten dollars a pop? Where are the calls for condemnation of them for having the audacity to make money on their intellectual property and being so controlling as to not anyone else make the boards?

Fixed versus Marginal costs are different in the hardware and software business. R&D is makes up a larger percentage of costs for software and skews the fixed costs numbers. Higher Fixed:Marginal ratio makes the venture a greater risk, given equal market potential of the product. So arguably, Software is different and more risky. However, once you have returned the fixed costs, the marginal profit is very high for software. Thus hardware and software are different, but this knowledge hardly makes one a much better/easier investment decision than the other.

You must understand that it's not that everyone with the 'demand' is simply being lazy. As we all know, the level of specialized education needed to create an editor is beyond some of our reach. If all it took was free time, I would be willing to give it a shot. However, the schooling and training alone means that if I DID ever get to that point, our cars would be 45 years old.

We are simply trying to get the right people for the job motivated to make something like this. We already know that they are somewhat passionate about what they do. It's not like we are asking for a free product.... I know the majority of us would pay a pretty penny for a DME editor.

If we are more than willing to drop 1,300 on a one time, off the shelf tune with only WOT revisions.... Just imagine the value of an editor. How much would you pay for it? Compare it to a TEC 3R. Look at the price, then ask the guys using it how their driveability is. Most are not completely happy with it.

I understand it's not everyone. But there does seem to be a contingent that says "We demand the editor, and we demand that we only pay as much as the Honda guys do". Ultimately, it is up to those that create the editor to decide what to charge for it. Then it is up to the market to determine whether the product will survive. Somewhere there exists a range where the product will thrive and the creators will profit, and I don't see any problem with that.

And to say that some people are not completely happy with their TEC 3R is an understatement. :stickoutt

i think you need to take into account original intent on the MS or any open source project. Alot of them are born out of the pure desire to make something or solve a problem, not sell something. That typically comes later. And it takes years and years to develop these projects to the point they are today.

the bmw scene in general does not contain alot of true hacker / DIY type people. It contains people who spend alot money on cars that cost alot of money. and on the other side, contains people who think they can make alot of money off of the people who have the cash to spend. everything is always shrouded with mystery for no reason. even down to standard engine builds and machining costs - well its a bmw so i'm gonna charge you 600 bucks to get it bored. :nono

its all perception and not much reality.

i think you need to take into account original intent on the MS or any open source project. Alot of them are born out of the pure desire to make something or solve a problem, not sell something. That typically comes later. And it takes years and years to develop these projects to the point they are today.

the bmw scene in general does not contain alot of true hacker / DIY type people. It contains people who spend alot money on cars that cost alot of money. and on the other side, contains people who think they can make alot of money off of the people who have the cash to spend. everything is always shrouded with mystery for no reason. even down to standard engine builds and machining costs - well its a bmw so i'm gonna charge you 600 bucks to get it bored. :nono

its all perception and not much reality.
I think you're wrong on almost everything there except for the MS stuff...

Also, if you paid $600 to get your block bored/honed, I hope they used lube. :)

I'm with Delga.

If you want to invest money and time(as we know, time=money. So really it's money X 2) in getting the knowledge to crack the dme and want to give away that virtual money. You can. I can also see why people want to get paid for their time and money.

Software is the exact same as hardware in the sense there is absolutely a real dollar cost associated with attaining it. Whether it's from schooling, research time or attaining the hardware to create the software(computers and such). I can also see why it's easier to give away software as opposed to hardware. But, that doesn't take away from software costing a person time and money.

If you want free information to be available to the community then it should be YOU that invests YOUR TIME AND MONEY. Before YOU do it, you're not allowed to complain. Until you've done that, you should vote what is acceptable with your dollars and not your mouth.

I'm with Delga.

If you want to invest money and time(as we know, time=money. So really it's money X 2) in getting the knowledge to crack the dme and want to give away that virtual money. You can. I can also see why people want to get paid for their time and money.

Software is the exact same as hardware in the sense there is absolutely a real dollar cost associated with attaining it. Whether it's from schooling, research time or attaining the hardware to create the software(computers and such). I can also see why it's easier to give away software as opposed to hardware. But, that doesn't take away from software costing a person time and money.

If you want free information to be available to the community then it should be YOU that invests YOUR TIME AND MONEY. Before YOU do it, you're not allowed to complain. Until you've done that, you should vote what is acceptable with your dollars and not your mouth.

:handclap

trust me. i wouldn't pay 600 for that. but there are very well known places that charge that. and lots of people pay it.

but instead we made our own torque plate, and get things done for much less. and the plate is available to the community to use. which i guess makes it free hardware :stickoutt

I think you're wrong on almost everything there except for the MS stuff...

Also, if you paid $600 to get your block bored/honed, I hope they used lube. :)

Torque plate ftw!!!!!

I think I am being misunderstood in the rest of this thread though.

Its great if someone wants to make an editor and charge people a boat load. Because it'll only be a short time before someone takes that editor and does something to it and recreates it and makes it free :)

There is no way to provide anything for free/cheap unless there is some sort of passion or desire to do so. B&G make money on boards is minuscule to the amount of time they spend. They hold full time jobs in addition to doing their work - I don't know about you but if I did programming/circuit design on this project like you I wouldn't be able to work a minute on anything else with losing my sanity - thats what passion is.

No one on here has a passion for helping anyone/any project - the BMW symbol and the dollar sign seem to be an ideal euphonium. The same cold be said about Corvette owners and their cars, except they have LSEdit and such. Theres no reason that this project is any different than other platforms. Someone with the knowledge and time would have to put in effort that might not reap the benefits of massive amounts of monetary income and it's sad to say, but that is the only motivation for people around these parts.

I recently had an individual up in NY ask me for a coil driver so he could help his friend get his car running on short time frame and I was unable to because I didn't have a driver and I was up in Pottsvegas working on my car until late on that day - he felt it necessary to offer me up to $100 or something for a coil driver. While I appreciate his gratuity, if I had the time and the part, I would have driven to meet him for the $5 for the part and some gas money. I just didn't have time so late that Sunday nor did I have a part.

Its natural to want to make money, but I have personally done so many tasks for people without pay just because I actually do enjoy what I do and like making things available to those who otherwise couldn't afford it. VAC quoted us over $600 to do some engine work that through knowing Jay and Jim, is about 1/3 the cost.

Yes B&G makes a few bucks on the board - they sell partial kit CPU/Map/Board for $95 or so, that makes the board itself about... $50. That sort of board with the amount of fab in it, for $50 backed out, is probably only $10 over what it costs to make! Sue them for wanting $10!

The makers of Pidgin, the free AIM-like clone for *nix now, don't make squat off of squat. Theres no motivation for them to do it other than they like working on it and it helps them learn and develop applications that might interface with their actual work and better their ability to do things. They enjoy it.

If someone made an editor I would gladly give them up to $50 and I wouldn't even use the damned thing. Don't think people like myself don't appreciate good work. I've donated money to ubuntu and developers of GPL stuff I use just because I like it. But I only support it if there is a desire and passion for them to want to do it. If they were to kick and scream about "ugh people want this damned thing so I am going to do it ugh ugh guh" then save your troubles and don't do it.

It's apparent that those who might be able to do it do not want to do it. It would make it pointless to get a chip tune anymore. That would hinder so many small scale businesses who base their primary feature/selling point around that aspect. They'd die off in short notice. So many people used to chip tune Hondas too, but their pool is bigger and their funds are lower (in general) and they "got sh!t done" and managed to hack the ECU and make a front end etc. They've gone so far as soldering serial ports and MAP sensors onto their stock ECUs. Can you imagine if someone pioneered that for our stuff?

No one on here has a passion for helping anyone/any project - the BMW symbol and the dollar sign seem to be an ideal euphonium.

It's apparent that those who might be able to do it do not want to do it.

Wrong. You are so wrong about that.

You have NO IDEA of the IN PERSON, DRIVE TO MY HOUSE TO HELP ME....hours on the phone, hours in chat online, GOES OUT OF THEIR WAY kind of help I have received locally from VERY BUSY automotive-business people here. Guys that know I would have no other choice than to pay them kind of people. But they don't.

I know for a fact I am not alone. There are probably countless like-circumstances locally and across the states.

What you're hinged on seems to be the guys who are in the business to send their kids to college and have a good life off their hard work. While there is room to help for free(IF THEY CHOSE) they don't have to and no one should try to make them seem like less of a person because they charge for their time. I haven't seen one response here that looked like they didn't hear or understand what you're saying. I think you're wrong about being misunderstood.

Jon, I mean all of this in the most respectful way.

Its great if someone wants to make an editor and charge people a boat load. Because it'll only be a short time before someone takes that editor and does something to it and recreates it and makes it free :)

That's theft. And that's why we (the community) don't already have an editor.

Someone with the knowledge and time would have to put in effort that might not reap the benefits of massive amounts of monetary income and it's sad to say, but that is the only motivation for people around these parts.
Then why have 10-20 people tuned their own 413s using info from threads on this forum?

They enjoy it.

Enjoying it doesn't keep the lights on and the rent paid. :dunno

i don't doubt there are people willing to go out of their way to help with things all day long.

but unless i misunderstood, these aren't the people with the skills to write a DME editor.

and those are specifically the people we are talking about.

the point of this thread is to bring the ability of 413 tuning to the masses. not to the handful of people who already understand how to do it, and feel comfortable with hex editors and eprom burners/emulators



That's theft. And that's why we (the community) don't already have an editor.


Then why have 10-20 people tuned their own 413s using info from threads on this forum?



Enjoying it doesn't keep the lights on and the rent paid. :dunno

Its great if someone wants to make an editor and charge people a boat load. Because it'll only be a short time before someone takes that editor and does something to it and recreates it and makes it free :)

And that person should suffer the consequences of his actions. He's no better than the guy peddling knock-off DVDs at the train station. Just a higher class of counterfeiter.

There is no way to provide anything for free/cheap unless there is some sort of passion or desire to do so. B&G make money on boards is minuscule to the amount of time they spend. They hold full time jobs in addition to doing their work - I don't know about you but if I did programming/circuit design on this project like you I wouldn't be able to work a minute on anything else with losing my sanity - thats what passion is.

Therein lies the difference. You seem to be asking people who make their livelihood on producing BMW tuning software to give it to the community for free, as they are supposed to be "passionate". It's no different than asking a doctor, lawyer, teacher, garbageman, what-have-you to provide their services for free because they are supposed to be passionate about what they do. In a capitalistic society no one is required to work for the greater good. They can, but they are under no obligation to do so.

No one on here has a passion for helping anyone/any project - the BMW symbol and the dollar sign seem to be an ideal euphonium. The same cold be said about Corvette owners and their cars, except they have LSEdit and such.

The very existence of this forum is for others to provide help to others and their projects. If "no one here has a passion for helping anyone", then why are there nearly 20k threads on the FI forum alone? Are we just discussing the weather?

Theres no reason that this project is any different than other platforms. Someone with the knowledge and time would have to put in effort that might not reap the benefits of massive amounts of monetary income and it's sad to say, but that is the only motivation for people around these parts.

Why the vitriol against someone wanting to profit from their efforts? How many people truly possess the knowledge to implement this product? If it was easy as you seem to make it to be, wouldn't some altruistic person have already done it?

I recently had an individual up in NY ask me for a coil driver so he could help his friend get his car running on short time frame and I was unable to because I didn't have a driver and I was up in Pottsvegas working on my car until late on that day - he felt it necessary to offer me up to $100 or something for a coil driver. While I appreciate his gratuity, if I had the time and the part, I would have driven to meet him for the $5 for the part and some gas money. I just didn't have time so late that Sunday nor did I have a part.

If it was your business to make coil drivers, would you be so cavalier in giving them away? If that was how you put food on the table, would you be willing to give them to all of your customers for five dollars and gas money?

Its natural to want to make money, but I have personally done so many tasks for people without pay just because I actually do enjoy what I do and like making things available to those who otherwise couldn't afford it. VAC quoted us over $600 to do some engine work that through knowing Jay and Jim, is about 1/3 the cost.

Same argument as above.

Yes B&G makes a few bucks on the board - they sell partial kit CPU/Map/Board for $95 or so, that makes the board itself about... $50. That sort of board with the amount of fab in it, for $50 backed out, is probably only $10 over what it costs to make! Sue them for wanting $10!

Where do we draw the line then as to when to sue them? $15 profit? $25? $500? Where do they cross over from "just a few bucks" to "greedy bastard"?

The makers of Pidgin, the free AIM-like clone for *nix now, don't make squat off of squat. Theres no motivation for them to do it other than they like working on it and it helps them learn and develop applications that might interface with their actual work and better their ability to do things. They enjoy it.

And that's their choice. Should they have been pilloried if they had decided to charge for their product? What if it was just a small amount? Again, when do they cross the line?

It's apparent that those who might be able to do it do not want to do it. It would make it pointless to get a chip tune anymore. That would hinder so many small scale businesses who base their primary feature/selling point around that aspect. They'd die off in short notice. So many people used to chip tune Hondas too, but their pool is bigger and their funds are lower (in general) and they "got sh!t done" and managed to hack the ECU and make a front end etc. They've gone so far as soldering serial ports and MAP sensors onto their stock ECUs. Can you imagine if someone pioneered that for our stuff?

Are you so certain of that? Are all of the tuners involved in some great conspiracy to keep down DIY tuning? Do all of them have DME editors already developed but are keeping them off the market to protect their business? I personally don't subscribe to such tin-foil hat type theories. I believe it's far more complicated than just spending an afternoon with a laptop to create such a product. I think the pool of people who can actually make this happen is far smaller than you think. The lack of a grassroots movement to develop an editor seems to further support the theory that this can be done through pluck and determination (or, as you described it, "get[ting] shit done"). And if a single individual or a small group of individuals who my possess the knowledge to do so decide that it isn't worth the time and effort in the end, then that's their prerogative.

And that person should suffer the consequences of his actions. He's no better than the guy peddling knock-off DVDs at the train station. Just a higher class of counterfeiter.

Actually it would be fit under the loosy goosey reverse-engineering category. You have to admit there is legal question behind the very nature of taking Boschs code and changing it. We've been through that topic before and all the tuners just stay out of it which is safe for them. But the truth is I don't think anyone is certain about the legality of selling software changes on your car to people with modified software that you don't have a license for to begin with. So, what everyone is doing may not be technically legal to boot! I've never gotten a straight answer.

What's funny is ok no one wants to donate their time and knowledge to make an editor. Then why doesn't one of these numerous people who have tuned their ECU write up a "How-To"? Statistically we have so many people with turbo cars who didn't build them. We have so many people with turbo cars who don't know how they even work. Are these people omitted from being able to tune their stuff or flash a base tune over because they don't know what the word "hex" or "checksum" means? I don't think so - if we had an editor it'd be so dumbed down, anyone and everyone would be able to share base tunes and greater good would come of it. All the tuners who fear it'd ruin their business would have tons more volume to deal with - their businesses would thrive. Look at the Subaru and Evo markets - they have about 1,000 mixes of different configurations and with stock burners and reflashes they have base tunes for everything - we won't even get into the honda market. Why can't BMW share the same experience? Because the people who know how to help that cause don't want to - plain and simple.

No they're not obligated, no they're not required, no I am not begging them to do so. However, it'd look awesome on their part, it'd be a significant contribution to the community that would be legendary and their company name would go down in BMW aftermarket history. Remember, FI guys aren't the only people looking to chip tune their cars!

Whatever, the market is there, there's just no one with the care to provide it. It ultimately doesn't affect me either way.

^^^^^:worship:

I don't know Hex or Checksum. I need it dumbed down. :(

Why can't BMW share the same experience? Because the people who know how to help that cause don't want to - plain and simple.

Or because people like you will "reverse engineer" it and rip them off. :rolleyes

Why can't BMW share the same experience? Because the people who know how to help that cause don't want to - plain and simple.

No they're not obligated, no they're not required, no I am not begging them to do so.
.

This is where you are losing me in your argument. You say those with the knowledge are not obligated to share, but you seem to take umbrage when they don't.

I think we do agree on certain aspects. Those that create do have the right to do as they see fit with their creations. I'll even agree with you that DIY OBD-II tuning would be great for the masses to have (well, up until the point that some yahoo blows up his new M6). Where we diverge is our opinions on those that could make it happen. I hold no grudge against them for not making it happen (I don't believe for one second that they are holding it back), while it appears that you do.

^^^^^:worship:

I don't know Hex or Checksum. I need it dumbed down. :(I know you don't need it dumbed down because you're certainly smarter than me. :stickoutt You want it handed out because your opportunity cost is too high and the satsifaction from learning the bin code is too low.
It's not a fault that you want a car that runs well with an easy to use tuning interface. Unfortunately, such a beast does not exist outside of doing the work or going standalone.

This is where you are losing me in your argument. You say those with the knowledge are not obligated to share, but you seem to take umbrage when they don't.

I think we do agree on certain aspects. Those that create do have the right to do as they see fit with their creations. I'll even agree with you that DIY OBD-II tuning would be great for the masses to have (well, up until the point that some yahoo blows up his new M6). Where we diverge is our opinions on those that could make it happen. I hold no grudge against them for not making it happen (I don't believe for one second that they are holding it back), while it appears that you do.

Yes but look at it from this angle - they're not holding back, they're just not helping out any either. Like seriously, people ask the most basic questions like "What is a ballpark figure for timing at ____ rpm and ____ boost on a _____ engine" and they get no answer. Nope, they don't have to, nope, they aren't obligated, but somewhere in their life someone gave them a piece of information and they ran with it. I wish we had a more open community.

Yes but look at it from this angle - they're not holding back, they're just not helping out any either. Like seriously, people ask the most basic questions like "What is a ballpark figure for timing at ____ rpm and ____ boost on a _____ engine" and they get no answer. Nope, they don't have to, nope, they aren't obligated, but somewhere in their life someone gave them a piece of information and they ran with it. I wish we had a more open community.
That's not necessarily to "hide" information. A lot of that is to protect themselves. They don't know that person, or their kit, or the health of the car. If they say "yeah, run 17 degrees of timing", and that person's engine blows up, they get blamed. It's just not worth the risk.

Shuasha although true its not a big deal - its casual advice on the internet. Believe me, I've been told by people to do things that I knew were completely anti- what is correct, I didn't do it. But if I did, they couldn't be held responsible. No one set my ECU up but me!

Shuasha although true its not a big deal - its casual advice on the internet. Believe me, I've been told by people to do things that I knew were completely anti- what is correct, I didn't do it. But if I did, they couldn't be held responsible. No one set my ECU up but me!
While that's most likely true, to many people it's just not worth it.

Yes but look at it from this angle - they're not holding back, they're just not helping out any either. Like seriously, people ask the most basic questions like "What is a ballpark figure for timing at ____ rpm and ____ boost on a _____ engine" and they get no answer. Nope, they don't have to, nope, they aren't obligated, but somewhere in their life someone gave them a piece of information and they ran with it. I wish we had a more open community.

Information like that has been provided. unfortunately the answer, if we only have basic info, is very general as well. The correct answer is to start low and work your way up. If I were to give a general answer, I'd say start at 10 degrees everywhere and work torwards the desired result.

People tend to talk in generalities when there aren't absolutes.

i understand 5mall5nail5 view on this subject .

few years ago when i wanted to turbo my car, it would have just stayed a "dream", i didnt have alot of money but knew there was a right way to do this, because of someone strangers hard work, free easy to use rom editors (and affordable pnp obd conversion harnesses) were there for me to use and it was a great experience and i learned alot putting together my own kit.

it was affordable and fun, and i became involved in the local and internet car communitys that helped me. i actually had someone i barely knew offer to make my 1st manifold for next to nothing just for fun. i'm starting to miss the honda scene lol. i've also helped locals with getting there projects going and sharing what ive learned and meeting new friends.

differnt local shops where they fabricate exhaust and have dyno's and tunning hardware have sence made money off me as i rely on them for tuning and welding where i cant.

after a few turbo cars, i went looking for somthing else, not fwd, not a nissan like all the other guys around me were selling there hondas for, unfortunatly i liked bmws and the aftermarket scene is totally differnt. everything is sold in stages, and cost 5x as much, end users pay more and have less control over there system. 10+ year old cars engine control systems still remain mostly unexpolred and confusing to most.

Information like that has been provided. unfortunately the answer, if we only have basic info, is very general as well. The correct answer is to start low and work your way up. If I were to give a general answer, I'd say start at 10 degrees everywhere and work torwards the desired result.

People tend to talk in generalities when there aren't absolutes.

If things are too general to put a number in a box, how are you providing tuning for cars without having them 1 on 1 with the dyno?

Or because people like you will "reverse engineer" it and rip them off. :rolleyes

I'll even agree with you that DIY OBD-II tuning would be great for the masses to have (well, up until the point that some yahoo blows up his new M6).

That's not necessarily to "hide" information. A lot of that is to protect themselves. They don't know that person, or their kit, or the health of the car. If they say "yeah, run 17 degrees of timing", and that person's engine blows up, they get blamed. It's just not worth the risk.

Are any of you familiar with WRXs at all? There is a company called Cobb Tuning that sells basically an editor. The ACCESSPort (kind of like a shark injector with multiple, loadable maps) and the Street Tuner (a tuning interface that works in conjunction with the ACCESSPort) together essentially make a DME editor. To my knowledge.... since I got out of that scene, at least.... no one has copied it or blamed Cobb that their engines blew up.

I do not see that happening here either.

As a matter of fact, I am trying to get a job with Cobb. Maybe I can convince them to make an editor, as they have a very talented ECU department. :stickoutt

I also do not believe that an editor would take anything from the 3-4 tuners we do have. If they all were to use the editor, everyone would still some to them. Most will admit, as many of you have, that most high performance BMW owners do not know much of anything car related, not to mention tuning and choosing the right parts for a 'proper' setup. These are the same people who would go to the established tuners. I would wager that their business would increase. Not to mention the initial profit from the sale of the editors alone.

If things are too general to put a number in a box, how are you providing tuning for cars without having them 1 on 1 with the dyno?

In stock form every 413/506 m3 has the same tune. Once you have the basic base map ur turbo/hfm/injector you can pretty much replicate ur setup. Its alot more complicated for map base tunes where its pretty much car specific.
In reality, if mikes turbo kit contains the same exact hardware, all he needs to do is finalize one set of tune for a certain model and start reproducing, no difference in tune. Thats how aa/tt/and anyone else do it.

In stock form every 413/506 m3 has the same tune. Once you have the basic base map ur turbo/hfm/injector you can pretty much replicate ur setup. Its alot more complicated for map base tunes where its pretty much car specific.
In reality, if mikes turbo kit contains the same exact hardware, all he needs to do is finalize one set of tune for a certain model and start reproducing, no difference in tune. Thats how aa/tt/and anyone else do it.

That's my point - no one said anything about MAF vs MAP, I am talking generalities. It shouldn't matter - I think that reason Mike gave was a kind of escape to the question as we all know he won't actually give any useful information. Start at 10 and work up. I believe he once said start at 15 and work up before. Its just the same vague information that honestly anyone tuning their own car would already assume.

It shouldn't matter - I think that reason Mike gave was a kind of escape to the question as we all know he won't actually give any useful information.

It all always comes back to your favorite topic of conversation doesn't it? :rolleyes

I bet Jim Conforti is reading this thread right now thinking: "Well... I could have made a few bucks with this editor dealie, but if those ungrateful chumps are going to steal it, I'll just keep it for myself." :)

I bet Jim Conforti is reading this thread right now thinking: "Well... I could have made a few bucks with this editor dealie, but if those ungrateful chumps are going to steal it, I'll just keep it for myself." :)
Shut up Matt! We almost had him! :mad











j/k :stickoutt


Look what I started...muahahahahaha! :devillook

That's my point - no one said anything about MAF vs MAP, I am talking generalities. It shouldn't matter - I think that reason Mike gave was a kind of escape to the question as we all know he won't actually give any useful information. Start at 10 and work up. I believe he once said start at 15 and work up before. Its just the same vague information that honestly anyone tuning their own car would already assume.

Why did you ask if you're going to bicker about the answer you get?

I bet Jim Conforti is reading this thread right now thinking: "Well... I could have made a few bucks with this editor dealie, but if those ungrateful chumps are going to steal it, I'll just keep it for myself." :)
Theft of intellectual property is a very real concern when someone thinks about releasing a project with so many hundreds, er THOUSANDS, of hours of development time behind it. Nobody wants to spend that big of a chunk of their life WORKING on something only to have the equivalent of a cheap chinese knockoff available weeks later. If and when Jim (or anyone else) releases an editor for the BMW crowd, I would hope there is some decent level of protection involve to prevent just this kind of piracy. Software engineers have mortgages, grocery bills, and utility bills just like everyone else and deserve to get paid.

Theft of intellectual property is a very real concern when someone thinks about releasing a project with so many hundreds, er THOUSANDS, of hours of development time behind it. Nobody wants to spend that big of a chunk of their life WORKING on something only to have the equivalent of a cheap chinese knockoff available weeks later. If and when Jim (or anyone else) releases an editor for the BMW crowd, I would hope there is some decent level of protection involve to prevent just this kind of piracy. Software engineers have mortgages, grocery bills, and utility bills just like everyone else and deserve to get paid.

:clap :urtheman

What would people pay for OBD1 option. Say I create an xdf (turnerpro) with any size injectors (high impedance) of choice with editable timing and fuel trims, stock hfm-porsche hfm?

What would people pay for OBD1 option. Say I create an xdf (turnerpro) with any size injectors (high impedance) of choice with editable timing and fuel trims, stock hfm-porsche hfm?
Maybe $1000-$1500.

Keep in mind, you'll only sell one. :rofl

Maybe $1000-$1500.
Sounds fair. Now what size injectors do you want.? load the fles in your laptop and take it to your freindly neigborhood tuning shop.

Keep in mind, you'll only sell one. :rofl

Thats the fear myfriend.

Theft of intellectual property is a very real concern when someone thinks about releasing a project with so many hundreds, er THOUSANDS, of hours of development time behind it. Nobody wants to spend that big of a chunk of their life WORKING on something only to have the equivalent of a cheap chinese knockoff available weeks later. If and when Jim (or anyone else) releases an editor for the BMW crowd, I would hope there is some decent level of protection involve to prevent just this kind of piracy. Software engineers have mortgages, grocery bills, and utility bills just like everyone else and deserve to get paid.

So do musicians. That doesn't stop people. If they're motivated to take it, they will. I don't support any of this.


Spooltime can you comment on the legality, with certain fact, behind taking the closed source Bosch Motronic DME and "reverse engineering" the software and modifying it and re-distributing it as one's own? I'd be interested in your take on the matter.

ya thats like getting pissed about people pirating your remix of some song you didnt make

Forget Netflix.

:eatpop:

ya thats like getting pissed about people pirating your remix of some song you didnt make

Haha good analogy

Someone just turned it back around.

Could this help....

vcpowerteam.co m

Maybe. It looks like a hyped up WinOLS. I've sent an email to them.

It looks like it can tune the obd2 and up dme's..

This thread went a little crazy. Good stuff though.

BUMP for answer to below comment/question.


that is correct, there is no support for an editor. This is because there is not enough community support. We've tried that and it failed miserably.


Please expound on this. What price point do you feel you would need to sell these at to make a profit? What failed miserably?


I believe that increasing tuning option for BMW's increases market demand, which only helps BMW specific tuners. Does anyone want to touch this subject?

Sounds fair. Now what size injectors do you want.? load the fles in your laptop and take it to your freindly neigborhood tuning shop.

Here's an idea: since OTS tunes go for 1000-1200, I would think that people would pay closer to 2k for an OBD I editor. If you were to work it so you produced a few, then set up a GB..... you would make more than a pretty penny. If someone were to copy it and sell for cheaper, how ever long down the line (worst case), you would already have made a nice chunk of profit.

Not to mention the future business you would still continue to receive because of loyalty. If someone copied your product and sold it for half price, I would still buy from you (moral reasons..... and "customer service", warranty, etc). I would think that, especially in such a small community, the software pirate would be shunned, as you are fairly well known.

Just my take.

That being said.... man I should have bought a 95.

I believe that increasing tuning option for BMW's increases market demand, which only helps BMW specific tuners. Does anyone want to touch this subject?

I agree 100%. And I don't see piracy as being a very big issue.

Is there a copy of the shark injector? I think not.

Here's an idea: since OTS tunes go for 1000-1200, I would think that people would pay closer to 2k for an OBD I editor. If you were to work it so you produced a few, then set up a GB..... you would make more than a pretty penny. If someone were to copy it and sell for cheaper, how ever long down the line (worst case), you would already have made a nice chunk of profit.

Not to mention the future business you would still continue to receive because of loyalty. If someone copied your product and sold it for half price, I would still buy from you (moral reasons..... and "customer service", warranty, etc). I would think that, especially in such a small community, the software pirate would be shunned, as you are fairly well known.

Just my take.

That being said.... man I should have bought a 95.
Great points!

People probably would pay closer to $2000 because they wouldn't have to deal with the installation and such using a standalone. Just plug into the stock DME and tune. It also works well for changing back if they needed to for smog or if they sell the car, etc. Plus they might have more confidence to work on it DIY and skip the cost of install/tuning that a standalone would be with a tuner.

Idk-- I chose to tune the stock ecu because it was already there and free. If I had to pay $2000, I'd just get a standalone.

I'd say $950 would be a fair price with an emulator included.

Idk-- I chose to tune the stock ecu because it was already there and free. If I had to pay $2000, I'd just get a standalone.
Nice to get feedback about this. However you don't count because not everyone can make their own PnP. :stickoutt

Maybe another thread with a poll would be good. But if the choice is $500, $1000, $2000...everyone wants to only pay $500. So maybe the question is, "If you could purchase a DME Editor to plug into the stock DME and tune it for $2000, would you purchase it or get a standalone?"

pointless poll.

another good idea - i forget what its called, but local tuners to me have tp purchase a license to use certain software, they line up say 10 tunes, and the car owners absorb the cost of the licence.

by the way, from what ive been told, good tuners can tune anything that burns fuel (with proper interface) , no need for bmw specific tuners, all local tuners would benifit.

bmw specific ones would no doubt get more business, and be able to sell more aftermarket parts, the more pistons rods headgaskets whatever sell, prices go down, we all win.

Nice to get feedback about this. However you don't count because not everyone can make their own PnP. :stickoutt

Maybe another thread with a poll would be good. But if the choice is $500, $1000, $2000...everyone wants to only pay $500. So maybe the question is, "If you could purchase a DME Editor to plug into the stock DME and tune it for $2000, would you purchase it or get a standalone?"

Not really a fair poll... If I were to be in the market for an OBD I tune, I would have to go with an editor in order to pass emissions. People like to disregard emissions, but it is kind of important, unless you live in a place where they don't do emissions. Therefore, those living in emissions states/counties would have no choice but to tune their DME.

Hell, if I were in an emissions free state, I would convert to OBD I solely so I could use an OBD I editor.

I'd say $950 would be a fair price with an emulator included.

I agree. I wouldn't pay 1500+.

vcpowerteam.co mI now have the demo program with several diesel apps and it looks promising. Much closer to tunerpro than a fully developed tuning software. BUT if they have map packs and can read/edit e46 dme's, then it would be very useful. I will ask for a price quote and confirm the e46. BTW - which ecu's does the e46 utilize?

Siemens MS42 and on.

I agree. I wouldn't pay 1500+.

I'd pay a grand. No problem.

Not really a fair poll... If I were to be in the market for an OBD I tune, I would have to go with an editor in order to pass emissions. People like to disregard emissions, but it is kind of important, unless you live in a place where they don't do emissions. Therefore, those living in emissions states/counties would have no choice but to tune their DME.

Hell, if I were in an emissions free state, I would convert to OBD I solely so I could use an OBD I editor.
Booya! There is the selling point right there! So easy to switch back for emissions purposes. I'd like to get another project car and I so wish I could purchase a DME editor for $1000 for something like that. A standalone just isn't in the budget on another build.

I don't know. For that to be a selling point, you'd have to a) live in a restrictive emissions area, b) not already have a CARB approved system (which would not need tuning), c) not already know how to hack the DME, and d) not be able to defeat the smog testing process through more devious ways (e.g. bribe). How many people meet all four criteria?

FYI - please read this thread. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338847

I wouldn't pay more than $200 to tune my stock DME without realtime tuning/tracing/logging built in. I don't have a problem with my standalone and I can get into a Haltech E11V2 or similar ECU for not much more than $1000.

As far as emissions, PNP standalone makes my car easy to get back to emissions legal if I have to worry about it in the future.

perhaps now there is more understanding behind the "there isn't a market for this".

Most want it cheap if not free. It realistically can't be either if its released by a company.
Most want tracing and an easy-to-use user interface. This means it must include hardware and fairly sophisticated custom software. that makes it even more difficult to be done for cheap, and impossible to be done for free.

to make it feasible, since this is now obviously a commercial venture, you'd need to be able to lock down the software and hardware to prevent anything other than the ECU from reading the data on the "chip", and you'd need to encrypt the file format on the computer side of things as well. this again adds complexity, and thus cost.

An expensive piece of hardware becomes less expensive when you make tens of thousands of it per year. The large up front development cost of the software is only worthwhile if it can be spread over many thousands of sales. the market for tens of thousands of DME editors per year isn't there in BMW land, where it is there in the world of hondas and fords.

maybe i dont understand. why would we need anything to include hardware? other rom editors dont include hardware they just support already available hardware if your talking about somthing to interface.

fact seems to be theres already rom editors out there, some in possesion of not so large companys, so its do-able this thread is talking about end-users creating one if i understand correctly, why are you trying to talk people out of it? o wait..

maybe i dont understand. why would we need anything to include hardware? other rom editors dont include hardware they just support already available hardware if your talking about somthing to interface.
1. for the interface to be protected
2. to be able to support tracing

fact seems to be theres already rom editors out there, some in possesion of not so large companys, so its do-able this thread is talking about end-users creating one if i understand correctly, why are you trying to talk people out of it? o wait..
we've tried the "end users create one" thing. check the link posted above to a thread started by me. The "end users" above that are requesting an editor don't want to do any work. They want a turn key system that requires no thought on their part.

i would not pay 1500+ for tuning. every time i need to update something i have to pay someone else to do it. no thanks not me, i like to do things myself and have fun with it. now i would pay $100-$300 for the tools to tune my car.

i know VB, C#, C++, i'm willing to help make an editor as long as it covers my 402 ecu, if it doesn't cover the ECU that i'm running then there is no point or motivation for working on this. i also have some very powerful software to help with this type of challenge

maybe i dont understand. why would we need anything to include hardware? other rom editors dont include hardware they just support already available hardware if your talking about somthing to interface.

fact seems to be theres already rom editors out there, some in possesion of not so large companys, so its do-able this thread is talking about end-users creating one if i understand correctly, why are you trying to talk people out of it? o wait..
well if your OBD1, you will need a EPROM reader & burner, some sort of simulator

if your OBD2 you will need a port scanner, a cable and adapter to go to a laptop, and some sort of simulator





think like linux ------- Open source

1. for the interface to be protected
2. to be able to support tracing


we've tried the "end users create one" thing. check the link posted above to a thread started by me. The "end users" above that are requesting an editor don't want to do any work. They want a turn key system that requires no thought on their part.

What is keeping you from doing it Mike?

honestly there is enough info on this board to get started people..

It took me a few days to figure out what I needed to get going and start identifying maps.

when I got stuck setting up my xdf someone even helped me with a sample.

unfortunately my development laptop took a crap leaving me back at square one.

but I was close enough to be dangerous.. needed to figure out the checksum part of it and then I could of proceeded to blow up my motor...

honestly there is enough info on this board to get started people..

It took me a few days to figure out what I needed to get going and start identifying maps.

when I got stuck setting up my xdf someone even helped me with a sample.

unfortunately my development laptop took a crap leaving me back at square one.

but I was close enough to be dangerous.. needed to figure out the checksum part of it and then I could of proceeded to blow up my motor...

See I think thats the point we're trying to avoid - no guessing

The "end users" above that are requesting an editor don't want to do any work. They want a turn key system that requires no thought on their part.

I think it is pretty hard to make something that people would have to wire up and work at that still could reprogram the DME internally and take full advantage of the OEM electronics. If that's what it came to... something people would have to work at, I know that I would be down. I just don't see that as a possibility.

i would not pay 1500+ for tuning. every time i need to update something i have to pay someone else to do it. no thanks not me, i like to do things myself and have fun with it.

Yes, you would. That is exactly what is happening with our cars in present time. You pay anywhere from 1,000-1,500 for custom software. And what is worse, you are stuck to a particular upgrade path, or else the price goes up even higher. Good luck changing your setup once you shell out that kind of cash... I would rather pay a similar price and be able to tune my car any time for free. Forever. Unless you stop modding altogether, a DME editor would pay itself off in no time.

I wouldn't pay more than $200 to tune my stock DME without realtime tuning/tracing/logging built in. I don't have a problem with my standalone and I can get into a Haltech E11V2 or similar ECU for not much more than $1000.

As far as emissions, PNP standalone makes my car easy to get back to emissions legal if I have to worry about it in the future.

Easy to say when you live in an emissions-free area. Do you really want to do that every year or two? You would have to change hardware as well as revert to your DME. How else would you run clean?

What is keeping you from doing it Mike?

He just said there is no market for this. The cost would make the final product more expensive than most would be willing to pay... or so they say. I know of many "editor" type systems for other cars.... the owners of which are nowhere near as "well off" as many BMW owners. Those same systems sell like hotcakes.

See I think thats the point we're trying to avoid - no guessing

Jon, you know that there will be trial and error in the development process. It would be great if it was avoidable....


How difficult would it be to kind of reverse engineer another editor type system (freeware, of course) and make the interface work with our ECUs?

Unless my memory does not serve me correctly, wasn't LS1edit developed in some guy's spare time and released as freeware? (I remember reading something about it in Jeff Hartman's book.) Don't tell me that it can't be done.... Even if someone just developed an interface... The end user could easily buy the hardware needed. It's the program that is the issue here.

To legitimately purchase the software required to reverse engineer code, significant volumes of money is required. The time spent using this software to work out how that specific version of an ECU works and find the maps that you generally need is vast; this is time that you spend outside of your normal paid job or away from work that generates income (that keeps you alive and feeds both yourself and your families).

I am personally more than happy to help people out with jobs and tasks but there comes a point where so much of your time is being taken up by these so called ``favours'' that you don't have enough time to do your own stuff or the jobs that are required to keep you afloat. Now, if you lived at home with Mum and Dad and your life was essentially paid for then you may be able to get away with it for a while. The reality of it all though is that everything costs.

If a few of you get together and put together an XDF for TunerPro for a 413 (which is completely achievable and almost already finished I'd wager) then that would be a big ``win for the community''. The porsche guys have done something similar over the years, but only for a single ECU. The open source world is great, don't get me wrong there but you all must understand that what you are after its not feasable for a project such as this taking into consideration the volume of ECU's that would require supporting.

We here down under have all the functionality that you want, we use it to tune our cars with. It has taken many years of time and toil to set up and get right. Why would we be crazy enough to give it away years of hard work for free?

You guys are all quite happy to spend hrs arguing your point in a forum such as this but how many of you would actually go and spend some time trying to work out and learn how to solve the issue at hand here?

If you guys are really serious, I can create you a turnerpro xdf with a specific fuel injector of choice, maf of choice (stock, 540, Porsche). provide me a generous offer and you basically have yourself (stand alone) obd1 ecu

if we're going to start down this road... :rolleyes

Easy to say when you live in an emissions-free area. Do you really want to do that every year or two? You would have to change hardware as well as revert to your DME. How else would you run clean?



Swapping an ECU and injectors is that hard? I would be running a 3" cat in my turbo exhaust already if I lived in an area where I had to have my car smogged.

I'd wager I could have my car up and running on a stock ECU with stock injectors with the stock intake on it in under 2 hours.

if we're going to start down this road... :rolleyes
and whats that. This is what the op wants. isnt it

If you guys are really serious, I can create you a turnerpro xdf with a specific fuel injector of choice, maf of choice (stock, 540, Porsche). provide me a generous offer and you basically have yourself (stand alone) obd1 ecuIncluding injector latency constant, target lambda constant, throttle enrichment table, and coolant temp enrichment tables?

Including injector latency constant, target lambda constant, throttle enrichment table, and coolant temp enrichment tables?
your choice of injectors. Meaning i will create you a base map of say 65lbs with enough adjustment thats needed.

If you guys are really serious, I can create you a turnerpro xdf with a specific fuel injector of choice, maf of choice (stock, 540, Porsche). provide me a generous offer and you basically have yourself (stand alone) obd1 ecu

Will this xdf include vanos adjustment, rev-limiter adjustment,idle speed maps, coolant temp correction maps,easily changing MAF, fuel injectors etc later? I know the stock DME can do all that, but have you found those maps yet? What about logging/real-time tuning?

Will this xdf include vanos adjustment, rev-limiter adjustment,idle speed maps, coolant temp correction maps,easily changing MAF, fuel injectors etc later? I know the stock DME can do all that, but have you found those maps yet? What about logging/real-time tuning?
what do you think?

option to use MAP sensor would be nice, i dont like MAFs

id throw money into that, but id be willing to contribute as llong as its not too difficult to convert my car to obd1

If you guys are really serious, I can create you a turnerpro xdf with a specific fuel injector of choice, maf of choice (stock, 540, Porsche). provide me a generous offer and you basically have yourself (stand alone) obd1 ecu

Since you know the 413/506 so good, why haven't you been able to tune for the various $100 MAF's in a blow through configuration?

You also wouldn't have a "standalone" as it wouldn't include real time tracing which is extremely important. How would one know that your .xdf includes all the constants and maps? Screenshot?

Since you know the 413/506 so good, why haven't you been able to tune for the various $100 MAF's in a blow through configuration?

You also wouldn't have a "standalone" as it wouldn't include real time tracing which is extremely important. How would one know that your .xdf includes all the constants and maps? Screenshot?
didnt you try bmw maf in a blow thru. Tell me what happened? any success?


option to use MAP sensor would be nice, i dont like MAFs

id throw money into that, but id be willing to contribute as llong as its not too difficult to convert my car to obd1 why?

what do you think?

It was mor