Its pretty decent, took about 2 hours to get it all skinned, cleaned, and I even tossed a high temp paint on the inside (1500*F), as the fuel cell is right in front of it.

If your fuel cell gets up to 1500*F, then you'll have bigger problems than the paint job ;)

Well, the jet rocket booster that I have in the trunk thats connected to the "push to pass" button gets kind of hot too :)

Its more a preventative measure. If there are fumes that ignite, its less "stuff" to burn and continue the flames. But yea...god forbid anything like that happens.

hey Steve,
while it may be a bit late for dipping since it will effect your cage/welds, the place in pa is about 40 minutes from me, I'd be happy to help you by letting you store the car here until you can get, etc.
Great build!

Thanks for the offer, but I decided to go without dipping, its not worth it at this point, since the only welds on the chassis left is the base plates, and those are not bad.

As far as updates, this weekend has been pretty lax on the project, due to weather conditions I did not get the materials I wanted to on Friday, they won't be here until tomorrow.

I did finish up the wing mounts/tabs, so thats checked off the list. Otherwise, I did not do anything else to the car this weekend besides the trunk skin.

I need to get a sleeve for the front struts to mount to the spindle, and then I can mockup the suspension.

Steve, you mentioned you finished your cage design. Meaning the CAD model is done? Would you mind posting a pic of it?

Cheers,
Carlos.

Well, I did not bother spending much time on it. I basically just did a bunch of 3d sketches to get the idea down so i can measure tubes for ordering.

Nothing too out of the ordinary. The rear subframe tie in copies that of the GTR, front of rear subframe is like what RRT did, but tying into the rtabs. "X" in the main hoop, and the only thing out of the norm is a large radius sheet metal apillar gusset. 3 tubes to each front shock tower like the motorsport chassis. 3 tubes to each rear shock tower, 1 being the downtube, one from the middle of bpillar, and the "X" from the top of the main hoop.

Also, this is the final design I decided to go with for the rear shock mount/subframe reinforcement:

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/trunkcage.jpg

Looks familiar :)

Nice. Familiar, but not the same ;)

Edit: Well, last minute redesign. After some more thought I am now going to go to the bulkhead. I'm doing something like M3 Muscle is doing, with the rear subframe tie in connecting the rear to the center of the cage structure.

I'll also be relocating the main hoop mount to the small area next to the rear seat (in front of rtab bucket). This will raise up some tube/nodes, like the main hoop "X", door bars, and supports to the rear, but its ok, as long as they all intersect, it could actually be stronger than before.

I'm also going to use 1.5x.120 for the main, and 1.5x.065 (assuming i can get it) for the support tubes. If its not available., 083 is more commonly available.

I have to figure out the rear subframe tie in exactly (might go with what m3muscle has, not sure tho), and I also have to figure out what to do with the top of the bulkhead "shelf." My idea is to make a thin (.049ish) sheet with bead rolls go right across the top. Since it has so many holes, and is structural, and my fuel cell is under it (required "firewall" between driver) I need to close it in anyways, and this can help keep that bulkhead rigid.

nice project!!
can't wait to see it done :) keep up the good work, mate

Thanks, its moving along nicely now.

I got the 2" and 1" tubing in today, as well as the .12x plate for all the reinforcements. I cut out the bulkhead reinforcement plates, and I'll bend them and weld them in tomorrow. I welded in the rear shock tower reinforcement plates as well.

I also got the rear subframe "posts" welded in (and capped), so tomorrow i'll sheet metal those, and I'm hoping by the end of the week I can have the rear shock tower reinforcement structure finished.

I have the carbon roof coming in this week (THANKS EVOSPORT :buttrock), and I'm hoping to get a template of the main hoop this weekend. Get that bent up, then make the Apillar templates, get those 3 pieces bent, and start caging this bitch!

Pictures tomorrow...i'm spent!

Another night another update :)

I took 15minutes and made a test rig for a brake to put in my 30ton shop press..came out great! I'm going to build a beefy one now. This little dinky one bent 1/8" like it was paper, and a nice sharp bend! Its perfect for all these chassis support plates, brackets, etc.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/pressbrake.JPG


I cut and welded in the bulkhead cage reinforcements, as well as the 2" tubes for the rear subframe bracing. Once i get the trailing arm bucket posts in (tomorrow hopefully) I'll string up the cage design and post it. I also cut and bent up the main hoop base plates (ran into some more contamination problems). I felt this was a much stronger place than the floor. Plus, right underneath it is the factory subframe brace. Should work out well, as it has other benefits as well.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearsubposts.JPG

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/cagebaseplates.JPG


Carbon roof also came in from Evosport, its friggin awesome! Fits perfect.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/carbonroof.JPG

Here is a quick design I might do...it looks worse than it is, as the tubing between the rear shock towers are 1", and the rest will "look" simpler. The green tubes come from the Bpillar harness bar node. The bulkhead has 3 tubes on each side; Down tube, "X," and horizontal bar to the Bpillar harness bar node. All these are Non required tubes, so they are thin wall...and the tubes going to the bulkhead are 1.5x.120.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearcagemockup.jpg

Looks kinda familiar. I thought that you did not like the X between the subframe braces...?

Well, the "X" actually allows me to get loads from almost exactly 4 opposite directions, so it might work out ok. It is a huge trapezoid, which is a no-no, but because they are posts coming out of the chassis, I think its ok, they are still supported well.

There are only so many ways you can string together these points, they are bound to look similar either way, you know?

I think its a great design though, and it should create a super rigid rear end.

I was seriously thinking about creating a super node right in the middle there, and just having a ton of tubs come in from all over, but its not worth the hassle and frustration of grinding all those tubes.

so are your rear damper mounts going to be tied into the bulk head point at all? you are running rear coilovers right? tieing your rear mounts together and to the subframe will give enough strength? i dont know how much force goes up through there so im just wondering for my own car.

so are your rear damper mounts going to be tied into the bulk head point at all? you are running rear coilovers right? tieing your rear mounts together and to the subframe will give enough strength? i dont know how much force goes up through there so im just wondering for my own car.

Yes, full rear coilover. The shock tower is stitch/seam welded, with a thick reinforcement plate on the top/side where the shock mounts to. The tubes should be able to handle this vertical load no problem. I can also stick a tube from behind the bulkead to the top of the shock tower, but I think it should be fine.

Dang, I remember a time when I had the energy to stay up and work into the wee hours after the day job.. sigh. Now I'm lucky to make to 10 pm :rolleyes.
You're making up for some lost time, great progress, thanks for sharing with us.
Steve E.

Yes, full rear coilover. The shock tower is stitch/seam welded, with a thick reinforcement plate on the top/side where the shock mounts to. The tubes should be able to handle this vertical load no problem. I can also stick a tube from behind the bulkead to the top of the shock tower, but I think it should be fine.

yeah thats what i was trying to say. im sitting at school just waiting to finish and get back to my car thats sitting in pieces in my garage. this thread is really helping me out. thanks.

Dang, I remember a time when I had the energy to stay up and work into the wee hours after the day job.. sigh. Now I'm lucky to make to 10 pm :rolleyes.
You're making up for some lost time, great progress, thanks for sharing with us.
Steve E.

Haha, yep, definitely have to make up for just over a year lost! Its cruising now though, I'm hoping by the end of march I'll have it caged and painted ready for assembly and wiring. Engine should be here shortly. I actually just had two hockey games back to back, and i'm going to go crank away for a couple hours on the RTAB bucket supports.

yeah thats what i was trying to say. im sitting at school just waiting to finish and get back to my car thats sitting in pieces in my garage. this thread is really helping me out. thanks.

The load is still going perpendicular to that support, even if you put a tube on top its still going to have a moment around it...it would definitely help, but I think it should be fine. ~2500# car with aero, no rear swaybar, it won't be producing enough load there to torque around the several tubes supporting it on the inside. e46 is pretty beefy back there surprisingly. If you wanted to really go extra overboard, i would run a tube down to the rear frame rail as well, so it is pulling it in tension.

Ok into the garage I go :)

I'm hoping to get all the reinforcement plates/mounts and rear shock tower tubing done by the end of this weekend. I'm also going to blockoff the bulkhead shelf and seatback (b/c of fuel cell).

I'm waiting for a quote on the tubing order, hopefully I can get that in next week, get the main hoop and apillars bent and get cracking on the cage.

I started using the "pulse weld" technique with the mig, and it works great. I think everyone was spot on with the contaminant coming through from the other side. This Pulse technique allows the weld to penetrate but not to heat up the metal in front of it too much and suck in crap. I should have tried this technique earlier, would have helped a lot with stitch welding.

I'm probably going to modify the rear shock tower design a bit, basically just add the tube on top of the shock mount to tie tubes into. This reduces the moment arm and torque around the support to virtually zero. Should help handle the loads, instead of trying to bend around the inner support that I was going to do before. I just have to make sure I can reach everywhere to weld the tubes to it.

Tonight I finished up the RTAB bucket pickup points, as well as the rear subframe pickups. I think I can finish the rear tube structure this weekend (can be done seperate from the rest of the cage basically). The 2" tube is going on top of the shock tower, and will get tied to the rear and front subframe mount on its side, as well as the opposite side rear subframe mount (refer to illustration above).


http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearsupports.JPG


http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearsubdone.JPG


Spider man attacked my car with green lines! Looks 10x worse than what it really is...its actually very simple beyond what the Motorsport rear setup looks like. The motorsport chassis (non gtr) does not tie into the 6 points pictures here (4 subframe, 2 rtab bucket), and all my tubing for that support structure is under 20lbs, and maybe another 4lbs for the mounts. So under 25lbs of additional cage and it adds tremendous support for the rear suspension.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearcagemockup.jpg

Hey Steve J

Where did you get your swaged tubes for your control arms? I called Woodward and they are having a material shortage on many sizes.

Hey Steve J

Where did you get your swaged tubes for your control arms? I called Woodward and they are having a material shortage on many sizes.
Steve may very well be able to take care of you, but if not, get me the size you need and I'll see if my local shop has them. They usually stock a bunch. Let me know asap as I may be going there tomorrow. If not then next week

Haha, yep, definitely have to make up for just over a year lost! Its cruising now though, I'm hoping by the end of march I'll have it caged and painted ready for assembly and wiring. Engine should be here shortly.

Looking good, and a lot of progress lately! When do you anticipate to have it moving under its own power?

Hey Steve J

Where did you get your swaged tubes for your control arms? I called Woodward and they are having a material shortage on many sizes.


I got them direct from woodward...I actually have a full set of spares, as they are pretty cheap. You might try giving VAC a call, he might have some in stock he can sell you. Otherwise, check some nascar shops, its a pretty standardized part.


Looking good, and a lot of progress lately! When do you anticipate to have it moving under its own power?

Yea...I really only need one more tool/machine before I can safely say I am prepared to build the rest of the car, and thats the lathe...hopefully getting it in 4-6 weeks, when I'll need it. I won't need it until after i'm done with the chassis/cage fab.

Tonight I worked on the rear shock tower tubing structure. I am almost done, just one more tube to fit in and then its pretty much idle until my tubing order comes in next week. I'm going to try and make a mockup of the mainhoop/apillars next week out of scrap tubing i will find locally, and then bend up everything when tubing comes in.

I also got the Apillar base plates welded in, which means I'm done welding direct to the chassis! I'm definitely getting better with the Mig welder. I had to re-learn techniques, and get out of the tig mentality. I'll be mig welding the cage tubing, and tig welding the gussets in...and there are a lot of gussets (hint hint).

If the motor goes together easily (its basically bolting everything up and fabbing some exhaust and intake pieces, although some are already made at Evosport), I'm hoping June/July it could be on the track. I am skipping carbon trunk/hood/doors for now, and the only last piece I'm not 100% on is the Bosch Motorsport ABS system...but i'm working on that :) Otherwise all I need are turbo components (off the shelf parts), Evosport/AEM race box, AIMsports data, wiring...and everything else I have on the shelf in the garage waiting to be assembled.

Made some good progress last night, and finished up this morning. got the rear shock tubes done, as well as the apillar base plates. I'm stuck waiting for tubing now. More updates next week as tubing comes in, main hoop/apillar get bent and I start the bulk of the cage. After that its a lot of sheet metal work for gussets...and I need two large radius bends made :)

I also made a larger press brake, came in very handy already, bent 1/8" precisely with ease.

Gallery at:http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/

(See its not that jungle gym-ish at all)
http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/rearcage2.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/rearcage.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/passapillarbase.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/drivapillarbase.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/bigpressbrake.jpg

I'll be mig welding the cage tubing, and tig welding the gussets in...and there are a lot of gussets (hint hint).


How come you aren't going to TIG the tubing?

I don't think that red tubing is the legal size!! I also don't think it's going to give you the rigidity you desire. Now, if you wrap it in carbon fiber, and put the correct BMWCCA Club Racing Decals on it, then it might work!!







Steve, you know I am kidding!! Looks good - I'm impressed with your progress now that you have a place to work!

How come you aren't going to TIG the tubing?

I found it easier, and more effective to Mig this stuff. Because of the positioning, for me anyways, I find it easier to get solid welds by MIG welding. this stuff. I'm going to TIG some of the main cage, as its more accessible then this stuff in the trunk. Definitely tig welding the gussets.

I don't think that red tubing is the legal size!! I also don't think it's going to give you the rigidity you desire. Now, if you wrap it in carbon fiber, and put the correct BMWCCA Club Racing Decals on it, then it might work!!

Steve, you know I am kidding!! Looks good - I'm impressed with your progress now that you have a place to work!


Its a new tubing I developed with some friends at NASA, its super lightweight, but does not do too well in compression.

Its pretty amazing how much a garage and tools can help with the build of a car, its kind of hard without them. If I had this place here 14 months ago, I'd be in the car at the track now instead of posting updates :(

I found something to do while I am at idle waiting for tubes...

The fuel cell in the trunk requires a barrier between the driver, and since the upper bulkhead "tray" has a ton of holes, i decided to make even more holes, and then cover it up. I got .030 steel, so its pretty thin, the whole piece weighs about 4.2lbs, and I removed ~1lbs of holes and weldnuts from the top shelf, so only an additional ~3.xlbs. The vertical peice i'm going to do once all the tubes are in, and it'll also weigh about 4lbs. Both peices are structural though, as they are shear planes for the bulkhead. The beads really do add a ton of strength.

Until tubing comes, I think i'm taking a break, my hands are in bad shape and I need them to heal...plus I might need a small surgery for my trigger thumb :(

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/shelf2.JPG

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/shelf1.JPG

The beads really do add a ton of strength.


Steve, how do you put beads in the sheetmetal? I take it by the shape of the ends and the slight crookedness that they're done by hand but it's better than not having them there. :)

I want to put beads in some aluminum brackets to strengthen the 90 degree bend and have no idea how to do it. I'm thinking of modifying a chisel so I can smack the bead onto them but really don't know if it'll work.

Cheers,
Carlos.

I have a bead roller, $150 from northerntools. Its actually not crooked, its warped in the picture since the sheet metal is formed to a complex curve. The beads are straight, its partially an optical illusion. Its tough with the real thing stuff b/c it ends up putting a warp/curve into the material, and with one person its tough to turn the handle and hold the material in line with the guide fence.

You need to have a male/female die, and roll it in.

How thick is the material? How big is the bracket?

You can always just weld in a rib...

You need to have a male/female die, and roll it in.


OK that makes sense. Thanks.

It's smallish brackets not that thick, I just want to prevent them from bending. I may go thicker material, weld gussets in or just redesign. :(

-Carlos.

Steve,

How much of the rear deck material did you remove?

Do you have a picture from the underside?

Steve,

How much of the rear deck material did you remove?

Do you have a picture from the underside?

I cut about 12 1.5" holes, and removed any weldnuts. Since I am using the bulkhead as part of the cage, I wanted to keep a lot of the material there.

I bent up a roll hoop template at a local shop tonight. I'm hopefully going to get the Apillar mockups done tomorrow, and I'm trying to get them bent up friday morning or early next week.

I have tubing here now, so if I don't get anything bent by the weekend, I can still start fitting other tubes in.

OK that makes sense. Thanks.

It's smallish brackets not that thick, I just want to prevent them from bending. I may go thicker material, weld gussets in or just redesign. :(

-Carlos.


'Los,

You obviously never watched "American Hotrod". They used bead rollers all the time.

'Los,

You obviously never watched "American Hotrod". They used bead rollers all the time.

Nope didn't watch all that much, and now Coddington is dead so I'm guessing that show is over unless they had a season taped just waiting to air.

Carlos.

Steve,

What did you do to re-enforce the bumper mounts when you attached the rotissery to the chassis?

Steve,

What did you do to re-enforce the bumper mounts when you attached the rotissery to the chassis?

I just bolted the mounting plate to it.

I just bolted the mounting plate to it.

Interesting, I'm getting a fair amount of flexing on the rear bumper mounts. I've used some C-clamps to help with this when chassis is sitting upright.

Take a picture. I have no issues at all. Maybe the m3 chassis is beefier back there?

Picture in a little bit of the rear cage area...won't have main hoop and apillars until early this week (monday hopefully), but I'm going to fab the bulkhead tonight, and prob just sheet metal screw it in. It does not have to be structural, it'll just be a barrier between the fuel cell and driver compartment.

Edit: pic added. The "front" rear subframe posts will get one more tie in with an "X" coming from the mid-node of the main hoop on the bpillar. This will have all the load paths "counterloaded" in the opposite direction, so it should act well as a central node to give the rear the support it needs. From that same node on the main hoop/bpillar a tube will go down to the RTAB and complete the rear support structure.

Other than that there is just a downtub on each side to the bulkhead, with an "X" between them.

(Its just a light primer to keep it from rusting before I can get it all topcoated. I'm going to use Por15 2part topcoat, they are local, easy.

I'm going to go make the template for the front bulkhead panel now. Should be pretty simple, it's going to be 030 steel.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/rearcagetied.JPG

Wow, things are coming along great! You offer more support than Dr. Phil.

I got the hoop and apillars bent this evening. The hoop is tacked in, looks good, but the apillars need some tweaking, the passenger side I don't care if its off the chassis a little, but on the drivers side, I have to get it over another inch closer to the chassis, and it'll be good. Its close, I just want to get it as close as possible, so all the tubes coming off it will reflect this small change.

Any pictures?

Tomorrow, its been a long day and its worth it to just get pics tomorrow, as I have to tweak the apillar a bit.

So umm... any pictures?

Sorry guys, we started playoffs last night, and I had THRRE hockey games...so I was a little tired.

I should be cranking away tonight and I'll post pics.

Thanks for being patient ;)

Ok, sorry for the delay, but I only have time to post a quickie. We have our final round playoff game in 50minutes (shit i better get going!), wish us luck :)

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/cage31308.JPG

Did you take that shot from the mezzanine? :devillook

Jay

There's a storage loft next to the shop area, it gives a nice aerial of the car :)

The "X" brace on the downtubes to the bulkhead will probably slightly obstruct my rear view, but its not bad. Compared to a porsche/ferrari rear view, its still better.

I'm hoping by next weekend I'll be done with the cage, minus gussets and Apillars...which I'm still looking for a large radius bender, not having much luck finding anyone locally.

Here are some pics from tonight, everything behind the main hoop is done. I am getting the harness bar situated, and the other diagonal in the main hoop, then probably moving onto passenger door bar, and the tubes going to the outside of the front shock tower...need to wait for motor to make sure there is clearance for the tubes that go to the dash bar.

I'm also working out the Apillar design, as it has to be modified. My seat is in the way of one bar i wanted to do, no big deal, its still coming along great.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-14-08/

I also mounted up the steerng column and seat, its pretty nice, feels like a gokart. Very 'tailored fit' feeling. I think by sunday evening I should be well over 80% done with the cage, and can probably start doing some gussets. I'm also going to put in the center jack bars that go to the door X-braces. Drivers side is also getting an 8" Impaxx side impact structure.

You can also see where I had to use a BFH to get clearance on the backseat corner for the diagonal, I'll probably just sheet metal that off to give it some structure back and clean it up.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-14-08/main/p3140015.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-14-08/main/p3140016.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-14-08/main/p3140017.jpg

4am...can't sleep.

Here is the current design I am working on, its a large radius bend that will be sheet metal gusseted. My seat is in the way of connecting the top to the bpillar directly, so I can just put a small gusset (sheet metal or a tube) from the bpillar center node to the apillar roof bar.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/apillarfinal.jpg

Maybe it's just the photo angle, but is the main hoop bent more than 190deg?

I thought you said you had a trick alternate material for the bulkhead panel?

Weird angle...less than 190*. I'll measure it exactly for you.

Thats the template, but I am definitely not using the special material...it would be thousands and thousands of dollars.

Steve, I'm sure you are, but do be thinking about that friggin right side net attachment points along the way. Hooking mine up was just a big PIA the last two days. I ended up just going the the chassis on the front point as it was the only way to keep it out of the way of my shifter.
What a pain...

Yea, I'll order it monday morning, I know which one I am getting, and I'll attach it right to the dash bar. I just picked up a two eyebolts for the shoulder harness mounts, and I have one I can use for the right side net. Thanks for the reminder.

As for the main hoop, i got 184* total measurement.

Ok time to go crank away!

Update: I FOUND A PLACE LOCALLY TO MAKE THE ARCH aPILLAR! WAHOO!

Ok, calling it an "early" night. I had to raise the harness bar so it was within the allowed angle. I am using Eye bolts for a Schroth harness with clips. There is a tube welded through the harness bar, and welded on both sides to the eyebolt.

I got one gusset done, I think it came out pretty decent. I started to tig weld it, and then tried mig welding it with the pulse technique...came out really nice! I'm definitely going to mig everything. The pulse technique creates some really nice welds, and from some test pieces I did they are very strong. So I'll make a gusset on the other side of the "X," and I'm still trying to decided what to do on the other side of the harness bar...maybe a small taco there?

Tomorrow I'll probably put in the passenger "X" brace, and its center jack bar, and maybe gussets. I'm trying to leave one door bar until last so I can get in/out of the car easier to fab everything else inside.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/cage31508.JPG

Any close ups of the welds? What exactly is this pulse technology you've been talking about?

Technique, not technology. You basically make it look like a tig weld. You do very short weld beads, essentially just pulling the trigger for 1-2 seconds, the HAZ stays small, and so far from the tests I've done, its very strong. M3 Muscle turned me onto it.

I'll snap a macro closeup of a weld tomorrow.

There is also a real Pulsed Mig "technology" which is different, but I guess the technique tries to accomplish the same thing. http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/pulsedmig.asp

Here is a picture from M3muscles thread:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1116.jpg

Are you planning on running any support for the seatback?

For the drivers seat? No.

I'm thinking i'll have these Apillars bent, and try them out and see if they'll work. Its going to be tricky...I might even make the passenger side different (simpler) because I also want to make sure I can see my side view mirror.

I like the large radius a pillar support tube. What kind of shop did you find to bend it?

I like the large radius a pillar support tube. What kind of shop did you find to bend it?As long as the radius is constant and in only 2 dimensions, any shop with a CNC bender can do it.

Nice to see the cage coming together.

Are you going to do 4 full tacos on the center of the main hoop X?
I assume the main hoop is going to be fully tied to the car's unibody?

As long as the radius is constant and in only 2 dimensions, any shop with a CNC bender can do it.

Nice to see the cage coming together.

Are you going to do 4 full tacos on the center of the main hoop X?
I assume the main hoop is going to be fully tied to the car's unibody?

Actually, most CNC benders will not handle these tubes. I called the major benders in the northeast, they said they could not handle it. And the places that could handle it needed like a 500 piece order minimum to set the machines up. So I was forced to either find someone with the machine at their home shop, or a small race shop...found a small raceshop.

The radius is constant, i measured about 45" radius so far, but the key is the bottom 16" or so is straight. I think this is why BMW Motorsport terminated theirs midway up the apillar tube, as it needs t be a variable radius. Since the top is about 4" offset though, the sheet metal will need to be tacked and bent to comform to the twist/curve. The other problem is because it is bent in a single plane, it will only contact the "X" brace slightly, so I'll notch it to fit.

I am only doing 2 tacos on the main hoop center "X," one where i have shown above, and on the opposite side of it.

The hoop is going to be sheet metal gusseted to the Bpillar unibody.

I like the large radius a pillar support tube. What kind of shop did you find to bend it?

It took me TWO weeks of calling shops EVERY DAY to find a place that can do it. I ended up finding a local (1hr away...) dirt track chassis builder.

The door brace will get 3 tacos (not on the top), and then a sheet metal skin over the whole side where the side impact foam contacts. And the tube that goes up through the bottom of the chassis to the Xbrace for the center jack point.

Dang, there's a race shop back in Iowa that does that stuff on roundyrounders all the time.

Dang, there's a race shop back in Iowa that does that stuff on roundyrounders all the time.

What on a roundy-round needs a bend like that?

I mostly see it on the dirt cars, and if you have the manual bender, it takes 2 people to do it. Its only a $900 machine, but its not worth buying for two pieces...

I think I am going to order my lathe in a week or so though. :)

^^ I just bought that bender.

Nice progress Steve.

^^ I just bought that bender.

Nice progress Steve.

Which bender? This? Why?

http://www.xrschassisinc.com/catalog/images/tools_benders/lrb/lrb_bender.jpg

What thickness metal are you using for your tacos?

Link to top of google.

http://www.opton.co.jp/new_hp/overseas/cnc_pb.html

A few of the production based circle track builders use this as it's quite a bit faster then manual when you get it dialed in. One shop would build a few cars a week. I've also used them for doing production quantities of locomotive brake piping.

I was going to use 065, but I had some 049 and I did one as a test and with the flared holes its extremely rigid. So I used 049 for the gussets. I might use 065 for the Apillar though.

That machine can only do a radius of 80mm...I am looking at large radius benders, like 4 feet+.

CNC benders are all over the place, but so far noone can handle 1.5x.065 tubing for large radius. You need a roller to do this type of bend, or a CNC roll bender.

http://bii1.com/images/new/rollbender/R-M10_lr.jpg


The machine you posted makes bends like this :

http://www.opton.co.jp/new_hp/overseas/image/cnc_pb02.jpg

Quick update. Someone wanted a picture of the welds, here is a half decent one. I took a couple, but the shadows in macro mode pretty much made it not visible, and the flash would cause a glare. I am going to sheet metal gusset the roof bar to the chassis, as well as the Bpillars. I got one bar into the engine bay, 3 left I can do now, and the 2 inside ones I have to wait for the engine to come in so i can clearance it. I'm going to move onto passenger door bar, gussets, and figure out the apillars. Then I'm pretty much ready for paint (after i seal up some holes :)). I don't have a bender here, so I just straight shotted the roof bar...its actually pretty good, once the gusset is in there, it should be very rigid. I have to get my seat back in and see exactly where I sit...i might modify my seat mount slightly, although so far it feels like a great position. Its higher than normal, but i'm short, what can i say, I need to see ;)

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-16-08/

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-16-08/main/okweld.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-16-08/main/roofbar.jpg

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-16-08/main/cage31608.jpg

Looking good, Steve! I'm no expert, but I am enjoying the build and I'm looking forward to the final product.
-Ted

I'm not an expert either, i just play one on Tv, er i mean the interweb :)

Steve, your one man shop progress is very impresive. Great job! You keeping that shop clean or trippin over stuff? ;)

Man all the Poop you talk, Why don't you show a close up of the many F'ed up welds I see!!!! But that is a nice weld you pictured from M3 muscle's build though.My thoughts are you suck at welding but your good at typing!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris

Man all the Poop you talk, Why don't you show a close up of the many F'ed up welds I see!!!! But that is a nice weld you pictured from M3 muscle's build though.My thoughts are you suck at welding but your good at typing!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris

That was kind of rude and unnecessary, at least he is sharing his build with lots of picture updates.

Steve, is that it for the harness bar? The harness bar tube is required and based on the diagram for the basic cage it has to span across the width of the main hoop. Did you use a thin tube on it? That would be a good clarification request in my opinion.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Steve, is that it for the harness bar? The harness bar tube is required and based on the diagram for the basic cage it has to span across the width of the main hoop. Did you use a thin tube on it? That would be a good clarification request in my opinion.

Cheers,
Carlos.

The diagonal is normally the tube that is one piece, as I'd be more worried about that protecting me in a roll over, than that short .120 wall harness bar failing. I see no requirement for a straight bar across for the harness bar attachment point.

The welds are actually not that bad, not sure how you can see fucked up welds from 12' away...thanks for your contribution, but if you want to offer constructive criticism, go for it, but don't be a prick. Must be a southern thing...

Steve, your one man shop progress is very impresive. Great job! You keeping that shop clean or trippin over stuff? ;)

Thanks. Yea, i'm not tripping over anything, yet lol

That was kind of rude and unnecessary, at least he is sharing his build with lots of picture updates.

Steve, is that it for the harness bar? The harness bar tube is required and based on the diagram for the basic cage it has to span across the width of the main hoop. Did you use a thin tube on it? That would be a good clarification request in my opinion.

Cheers,
Carlos.
Steve,

I would read the rules again (I will try today). I am pretty sure Carlos is correct that the cross bar has to go all the way across.

Thanks
Brad

Man all the Poop you talk, Why don't you show a close up of the many F'ed up welds I see!!!! But that is a nice weld you pictured from M3 muscle's build though.My thoughts are you suck at welding but your good at typing!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris

Why don't you keep your opinions positive or non existent?

He's sharing a build he is doing on his own. If you want to add to the topic with good, constructive criticism then feel free. Otherwise, please don't fill a build thread with negative crap.

Thanks.

Steve - I can honestly say this is one of few threads on bf.c where Ive read every post and kept up with it the whole time. Would love to be in your shoes one day to do a build at home and come up with something of this caliber.

Congrats and good luck.

Unfortunatly they may be right Steve. It's shown on the drawing and is not labled "optional". This would mean to me that it must be as the drawing shows and it the required material. :(

Ok, after some reconsidering...i'll put it in tonight. I actually had it in my drawing, I just did not put it in.

Easy enough. One tube will go on on the left side, inline with the harness bar, with a short tube in between the "X," this will create a single load path across the car, and should be uber strong with the gussets where they are.

Thanks for the heads up.

Steve,

You MAY be ok.

19. Alternate Design/Construction A.
Alternative roll cage design and/or construction may be accepted with the designers and/or constructors or structural engineers certification that the cage meets or exceeds the specifications described herein.
1. Certificate must include the certifiers name, address, business name, business license number, professional credentials.
2. The certification document must be attached to the vehicles logbook.
3. If “plinth” boxes are used the constructor must include in the certification the structure includes a load distributing bottom plate. B.
Approval by the National Technical Steward or his/her designee is required.
1. Plans/drawings may be submitted in advance.
2. Final approval requires a physical inspection.

thanks
Brad

The ~5 lb hit seems like it'd be worth it to have a cage that you don't have to explain your credentials for (and is a business required to sign off on that? the rules aren't clear).

The ~5 lb hit seems like it'd be worth it to have a cage that you don't have to explain your credentials for (and is a business required to sign off on that? the rules aren't clear).

True, but the missing bar on the passenger side makes it much easier to access the back of the car if you ever needed to get back there.

Actually, b/c of the subframe supports, its still a bitch to get back there lol but yea, it does make it a lot easier. I should not have any reason to go back there though, so its ok.

Edit: After looking more closely at the rules, and looking at the car here...this bar is definitely not needed, and in fact it would not do much. Unless you need a bar for a passenger, this is not a required, not specified, and unnecessary bar. I think its time they update that napkin drawing in the rules, and specifically address cage requirements. They spent enough time on areas people cheat for HP gains, how about in the safety department? Typical Roll cage is not a good picture title.

The fact that most people have a BENT tube for their harness mount 100% negates the requirement for this tube on the passenger side, especially with my design. Only argument the tech/steward can say is side impact, and thats not very applicable to be honest. Unless I hit a 5' high wall (even then it would do nothing), or an X5 is racing and [god forbid] tbones me.

Conclusion: I'm not putting the bar in.

I might be out of sheet metal for gussets though, so I might try to get the 4 tubes into the engine bay, and wait for the engine for the last 2.

I also got some ohlins sleeve adapter Barry@RRT made up for me, as he has the dimensions from his...made my life easier, thanks Barry!

Any pics of the harness you are using? I opted to loop mine around the bar. Any reason you went with the other style mount?

Actually, b/c of the subframe supports, its still a bitch to get back there lol but yea, it does make it a lot easier. I should not have any reason to go back there though, so its ok.

Edit: After looking more closely at the rules, and looking at the car here...this bar is definitely not needed, and in fact it would not do much. Unless you need a bar for a passenger, this is not a required, not specified, and unnecessary bar. I think its time they update that napkin drawing in the rules, and specifically address cage requirements. They spent enough time on areas people cheat for HP gains, how about in the safety department? Typical Roll cage is not a good picture title.

The fact that most people have a BENT tube for their harness mount 100% negates the requirement for this tube on the passenger side, especially with my design. Only argument the tech/steward can say is side impact, and thats not very applicable to be honest. Unless I hit a 5' high wall (even then it would do nothing), or an X5 is racing and [god forbid] tbones me.

Conclusion: I'm not putting the bar in.

I might be out of sheet metal for gussets though, so I might try to get the 4 tubes into the engine bay, and wait for the engine for the last 2.

I also got some ohlins sleeve adapter Barry@RRT made up for me, as he has the dimensions from his...made my life easier, thanks Barry!

Steve,

You will 100% need to get a clearance as per the rules I quoted earlier. This cage will not pass tech as is IMHO without said clearance. You are an engineer, it should not be overly difficult for you to get what you need.

Just remember, not agreeing with the rules is not an excuse to not follow them. Either follow them or work to change them (or both). :D

Thanks
Brad

I agree that you really don't need the bar for your cage to function and be safe. But I believe it isn't to the letter of the rules, so either a rule clarification is needed or you get the necessary documents lined up to get it allowed within the current rules or just put it in. If it was me, I'd put it in just to reduce the hassle.

Even if you try to get it OK'd under '19. Alternate Design/Construction A.' it's not clear if you as an individual can do that since I'd assume you don't have a business.

Any pics of the harness you are using? I opted to loop mine around the bar. Any reason you went with the other style mount?

Makes sure that they dont move under loads. Also helps keep them lined up for a H&NR. (I wonder if this will now devolve into a H&NR thread. Hope the mods dont let it.)

Steve,

You will 100% need to get a clearance as per the rules I quoted earlier. This cage will not pass tech as is IMHO without said clearance. You are an engineer, it should not be overly difficult for you to get what you need.

Just remember, not agreeing with the rules is not an excuse to not follow them. Either follow them or work to change them (or both). :D

Thanks
Brad

I assume that they are requiring certification from someone with a Professional Engineering stamp. A PE is not going to put their reputation on the line without doing calcs to assure that the design meets specifications. Without any stated load requirements or safety factors, I'm not sure how someone would go about this.

I agree that Steve's design looks reasonable, but not sure that it's worth the hassle to save the weight. Would be an interesting test case for taking advantage of the allowance.

I have a sole proprietorship I can use as a business reference for racecar, thats irrelevant really. Anyone can form a business, and a business reputation means nothing as far as engineering data/calcs go. A PE might be required, which I don't have (nor need, since I am not really in engineering as a dayjob anymore), but as mentioned before, the data referenced would all be based off assumptions, which means its all meaningless IMO. Shit in equals shit out.

Its not a matter of saving weight, its a matter of me having to rip out this nice gusset to get a 360 weld around the tube. I did not put it in because its not needed, as simple as that. If they are fine with a 180 degree weld, along with the gusset, then I'll add it in. Although, how would they even know...

As far as the harness, its a Schroth Hyrbid II Hans, 2" lap/shoulder, with clips. Reason for not looping it is belt stretch, and to keep them in position as stated before. Same reason why I moved the harness bar. So when the belts need to get under higher load, they don't stretch. I am also going to talk to the rules guys about new sub-belt mounting guidelines, because they are not as safe as they can be as is. The best way to mount them is when the force is going forwards you want a direct force holding you back in the opposite direction. That means they should be mounted straight back, not down. The lap belts hold you down, the sub-belt holds you from going forward, so it does not make sense to mount them as stated. Maybe if you were trying to get ejected on a 45 degree angle, but you almost never do. You go straight forward.

I guess I'll email the rules guys and chat a little with them.

As far as what gets passed...unfortunately 95% of the cages I've seen at the track are VERY unsafe, and are passed without question. This is not to say I assume this will be overlooked, its merely a reflection of what is going on as far as safety protocol. Maybe someone should organize an educational seminar on what is safe and what is not?

Thanks for the comments, but lets keep this on the build now. If someone wants to start a new thread about rules, please do.

I just got two of the front shock tower bars in, and I'm doing the other 2 now...maybe I can toss in the passenger door Xbrace in as well.

being a business has nothing to do with the requirement, FYI.

I assume that they are requiring certification from someone with a Professional Engineering stamp. A PE is not going to put their reputation on the line without doing calcs to assure that the design meets specifications. Without any stated load requirements or safety factors, I'm not sure how someone would go about this.

I agree that Steve's design looks reasonable, but not sure that it's worth the hassle to save the weight. Would be an interesting test case for taking advantage of the allowance.

I would assume the load conditions used in the FIA cage certification documents would be a suitable starting point. The calculations shouldn't be difficult, but it isn't clear who is qualified according to the rules.

Steve, maybe you just need to get it FIA certified and become a one off manufacturer :D

being a business has nothing to do with the requirement, FYI.

What makes you say that? The rules clearly state that you must list your business.

Oh, did I not mention I'll be competing in FIA GT, so that's going to be needed anyways ;)

According to the rules, as you guys are being so exact, it 100% says list your business, which implies a business MUST be involved. Once again, another rules issue, as this assumes every cage is built by a business, when we know for a fact, many are not.

Also, it says and/or for who can certify it...including the designer. Designer, nor a structural engineer, need to have a PE, so thats another item to be clarified.

I think mod class cars are getting more advanced, and these topics just have not come up before. The Motorsport chassis getting into the club scene fixed a couple issues with those rules, so it seems this is just natural progression as more advanced mod cars, and now semi tube frame cars are being built.

I think its great, it just takes time and projects like this and many others to get the new rules put into affect.

OK...enough talking, time to get more work done :stickoutt

Wouldn't you want to be able to put in a passenger seat anyway for instructor/friend to ride along? It is kind of nice to have the option.

Wouldn't you want to be able to put in a passenger seat anyway for instructor/friend to ride along? It is kind of nice to have the option.

IIRC, the side exhaust and removal of seat mounting brackets make that impossible anyway. We got rid of the seating brackets on our car a while ago, and the passenger compartment is filled with the battery, fire bottle, cool shirt cooler and Accusump.

Yep, Bryan got it. I have side exhaust, and misc components in passenger area. Would be nice to take people out, but the car is purpose built for racing, not for passengers. Although, a friend of ours crammed a second seat in his 333sp, and takes people out...kind of sketchy, but its cool watching them go 185mph down the straight with their heads bobbling next to each other lol

The bars into the engine bay are a pain...but 75% done! I'm going to finish off this last one and see if I'm up for the passenger "X" brace. It consists of the "X," gussets, and a center jack bar.

It consists of the "X," gussets, and a center jack bar.

Maybe I'm not up on the lingo here, but do you mean a bar to reinforce a jacking point? Total waste of time, energy, and weight. That car is stiff enough by a factor of 50 to be jacked waaay up from either of the stock jack points.

Maybe I'm not up on the lingo here, but do you mean a bar to reinforce a jacking point? Total waste of time, energy, and weight. That car is stiff enough by a factor of 50 to be jacked waaay up from either of the stock jack points.

Probably means a center jacking point extending down from the door bars...it's MUCH easier to jack up each side from the center, leaving plenty of room for locating jack stands under/near the stock jacking points.

Maybe I'm not up on the lingo here, but do you mean a bar to reinforce a jacking point? Total waste of time, energy, and weight. That car is stiff enough by a factor of 50 to be jacked waaay up from either of the stock jack points.

I'm understanding it as a bar that will go down from the X through the floor and will become a 3rd jack point between the two stock ones, thus the center jacking point name. Ya know like NASCAR.

Pretty useful for doing fast tire changes. :)

Carlos.

I'm understanding it as a bar that will go down from the X through the floor and will become a 3rd jack point between the two stock ones, thus the center jacking point name. Ya know like NASCAR.

Pretty useful for doing fast tire changes. :)

Carlos.

Just got an new idea for my build!

I had them on my E36 Wc car, and they were the best thing ever!

Jack it up, put jackstands under, done.

My E36 had the bar offset from the "X" center, and gussets connected it to the intersection, horizontally and vertically. Since my drivers "X" is different, I'll see where they end up, I might have drivers into the intersection and passenger side offset. I'm either going to do that, or if there is room, run it right to the center of the "X." Offsetting it just makes you able to use a single gusset, instead of putting a small taco on each side of it. I kind of like the offset better though. It'll prob end up having the drivers side go to the node (as its an offset X), and passenger side will be offset.

On the bottome of the car you just have the tube poking through, with a reinforcement plate around it.

I had them on my E36 Wc car, and they were the best thing ever!

Jack it up, put jackstands under, done.

My E36 had the bar offset from the "X" center, and gussets connected it to the intersection, horizontally and vertically. Since my drivers "X" is different, I'll see where they end up, I might have drivers into the intersection and passenger side offset. I'm either going to do that, or if there is room, run it right to the center of the "X." Offsetting it just makes you able to use a single gusset, instead of putting a small taco on each side of it. I kind of like the offset better though.

You dont need it. There's enough material there.


Edit...ooops. Forgot about your exhaust. Maybe you do need it on the pass side.

You dont need it. There's enough material there.


Edit...ooops. Forgot about your exhaust. Maybe you do need it on the pass side.

If you have the tube stick out, then you don't need any support really, but the floor is pretty thin, I would definitely reinforce it...a couple hundred quick jacks and it takes some abuse. Just make sure you make it even with the rock panel, so a low profile jack can still fit under it.

My exhaust tunnel does not really remove much strength from the floor, just lateral support from the seat cross brace. Even if it was not there, I would still reinforce the floor under the car. Small square plate with hole in it, super easy, and light.

I'm done for the night, until tomorrow...

You dont need it. There's enough material there.


Edit...ooops. Forgot about your exhaust. Maybe you do need it on the pass side.

I think it's worth it. Look under sean's car then look under mine, he has a huge dent where he jacks it up, I don't. It's not much effort and it makes jacking the car up 10 times easier.

You dont need it. There's enough material there.

Not as evidenced by the dents on our car, even though the area is reinforced with some angle iron. The guys at RRT recently extended a bar down from our cage as well to solve the problem.

I am also going to talk to the rules guys about new sub-belt mounting guidelines, because they are not as safe as they can be as is. The best way to mount them is when the force is going forwards you want a direct force holding you back in the opposite direction. That means they should be mounted straight back, not down. The lap belts hold you down, the sub-belt holds you from going forward, so it does not make sense to mount them as stated. Maybe if you were trying to get ejected on a 45 degree angle, but you almost never do. You go straight forward.


Are you sure you want to go there? The straight down for sub belts comes from Schroth install directions ... I'm pretty sure they have done some sled testing to get the optimal belt setup, no? The sub belts stop the lap belts from riding up, not actually stoping your body from moving, so the load is vertical. This was my understanding, anyway.

Are you sure you want to go there? The straight down for sub belts comes from Schroth install directions ... I'm pretty sure they have done some sled testing to get the optimal belt setup, no? The sub belts stop the lap belts from riding up, not actually stoping your body from moving, so the load is vertical. This was my understanding, anyway.

Stopping a moving body with a strap in the crotch would be...uh...non-optimal. The lap stops the forward motion of the pelvis. The sub is there to keep the lap low under stretch so that the pelvis doesn't submarine under the lap belt.

Makes sure that they dont move under loads. Also helps keep them lined up for a H&NR. (I wonder if this will now devolve into a H&NR thread. Hope the mods dont let it.)This is correct. If you want to wrap, at least use 2pc collars that will keep the harnesses in the correct place.

I assume that they are requiring certification from someone with a Professional Engineering stamp. A PE is not going to put their reputation on the line without doing calcs to assure that the design meets specifications. Without any stated load requirements or safety factors, I'm not sure how someone would go about this.

I agree that Steve's design looks reasonable, but not sure that it's worth the hassle to save the weight. Would be an interesting test case for taking advantage of the allowance.

What makes you say that? The rules clearly state that you must list your business.
You know you are right. My interpretation as it is (not reading) is from a member of the rules committee.

Maybe I'm not up on the lingo here, but do you mean a bar to reinforce a jacking point? Total waste of time, energy, and weight. That car is stiff enough by a factor of 50 to be jacked waaay up from either of the stock jack points.

Probably means a center jacking point extending down from the door bars...it's MUCH easier to jack up each side from the center, leaving plenty of room for locating jack stands under/near the stock jacking points.

You dont need it. There's enough material there.


Edit...ooops. Forgot about your exhaust. Maybe you do need it on the pass side.

I think it's worth it. Look under sean's car then look under mine, he has a huge dent where he jacks it up, I don't. It's not much effort and it makes jacking the car up 10 times easier.
Again, txsee46m3 is correct in that the e46 chassis (unlike the e36) is plenty rigid enough to support center jacking under the cross brace without any cage tie in. That being said, Steve is BAR happy - so let him build more bars! lol

Brad...tubes not bars :) And in question we're talking about a reinforcement plate, not "bars", so shut it lol

As for the sub-belt, Its more a clarification for 7 point mounting I guess. Schroth/Sparco definitely does testing, as does Sabelt and all the licensed mfg's, but I'm just curious to see how these recent developments are showing alternative mounting methods. It obviously depends on the impact, but it seems mounting them on an angle downward creates some slack. Although the argument can also be made with a farther back mounting point there is also more belt stretch.

I was just fielding a thought, not a fact...thats why I am inquiring, to see what info there is available. I have not put the sub-belt mounting points in yet, and want to see some tests/data as to what has been proven to work with the new belts, etc.

The tube weighs approx 1.2lbs with the reinforcement plate. To save me a bent chassis down the road, seems worth it to me!

Brad...tubes not bars :) And in question we're talking about a reinforcement plate, not "bars", so shut it lol

As for the sub-belt, Its more a clarification for 7 point mounting I guess. Schroth definitely does testing, as does Sparco/Sabelt, but I'm just curious to see how these recent developments are showing alternative mounting methods. It obviously depends on the impact, but it seems mounting them on an angle downward creates some slack. Although the argument can also be made with a farther back mounting point there is also more belt stretch.

I was just fielding a thought, not a fact...thats why I am inquiring, to see what info there is available.
Get your facts straight buddy - Sparco uses Schroth! :stickoutt

That being said, Steve is BAR happy - so let him build more bars! lol

coughcoughtehjaffscagecoughcoughcough:lol

Get your facts straight buddy - Sparco uses Schroth! :stickoutt

Yea, didn't I put the slash there? Oh, whoops, I slashed the wrong name lol Thats what i get for trying to type fast at work. My bad.

Yea, sparco mooches off all the companies ;) lol

I did just read over some data on the sub-belts and understand the mounting better now. I think the 7 point systems are more suited for the mounting style I mentioned. I think i'm going to weld in the sub-belt anchors tonight. I also have to look into a nice way to integrate my seat mount into the cage a bit.

Brad, I'm calling you in a bit, get off the computer and answer the phone :stickoutt

If my memory serves me, most belts I have installed have slightly different mounting requirements. My Willans belts mounting instructions show the lap belt must be installed vertically from the pelvis with no rearward angle. Also, I have noticed the angle of the shoulder belts differ from one manufacturer to the next.
When I mounted the Willans lap belts, The diagram in the instructions made me feel a bit uneasy but I figured they have done enough testing to know what they are doing.

I did not get to the sub-belt mounts, but i did get to the passenger door "X" brace, and passenger center jack bar. I went to the intersection node, and will probably gusset all 4 sides of the intersection.

I started to mockup the drivers offset "X", the center jack point will be offset from the intersection as well. Should work out nicely. I'm still working on the Apillar design, using a large radius tube...problem is it looks like I won't be able to tie it into a support tube that goes back to the bpillar harness bar node, the seat is in the way, and it makes the egress hole too small. I'll probably put the "X" brace in and go from there...might have to come up with another Apillar design, as I can't lower the seat any more (b/c i want a certain field of view).

I'll probably put the "X" brace in and go from there...might have to come up with another Apillar design, as I can't lower the seat any more (b/c i want a certain field of view).

Steve,

We went to a lot of trouble to offset my seats as far to the center of the car as possible. I started with a set of Sparco side mounts and the VAC billet floor mounts, and eventually ended up fabricating custom side mounts and ditching the VAC pieces. It was a huge PITA, but in the end I got the seat exactly where I wanted it. This may help you gain the clearance you need.

Thanks, but my seat is already mounted to a custom seat mount. Its against the transmission tunnel. The problem is with the height. Its a "tall" seat since it has large head restraints, and its mounted high.

Thanks, but my seat is already mounted to a custom seat mount. Its against the transmission tunnel. The problem is with the height. Its a "tall" seat since it has large head restraints, and its mounted high.

I've seen your seat mounts and would say that the side of my seat sits nearly 2" further towards the center. Would that aleviate your clearance issue?

I've seen your seat mounts and would say that the side of my seat sits nearly 2" further towards the center. Would that alleviate your clearance issue?

You have a picture? I'm not sure how it would get any closer to the trans tunnel without going higher, you'd have to cut into the trans tunnel to make clearance for the mount/seat.

The real problem is I want/need to sit high, and its a weird seat (Sabelt Taurus) as far as its height goes. I'd like to mount it ON the floor, but then I would not be able to see lol

Thanks!

Edit: Here is a picture, its against the trans tunnel. If I tried to make it lower, I would have to notch the tunnel to move it over towards the center any further. I doubt your seat is 2" further past this...it would literally be IN the trans tunnel.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/9-8-06/main/p9070003.jpg

You have a picture? I'm not sure how it would get any closer to the trans tunnel without going higher, you'd have to cut into the trans tunnel to make clearance for the mount/seat.

The real problem is I want/need to sit high, and its a weird seat (Sabelt Taurus) as far as its height goes. I'd like to mount it ON the floor, but then I would not be able to see lol

Thanks!

Edit: Here is a picture, its against the trans tunnel. If I tried to make it lower, I would have to notch the tunnel to move it over towards the center any further. I doubt your seat is 2" further past this...it would literally be IN the trans tunnel.

And I'll tell you...I actually looked INSIDE the tunnel to check that option out. :)

Let me see if I can grab a picture for you. (Heck, we only spent nearly 3 days figuring this one out!)

And I'll tell you...I actually looked INSIDE the tunnel to check that option out. :)

Let me see if I can grab a picture for you. (Heck, we only spent nearly 3 days figuring this one out!)

Yea, let me know. I have seen some people notch the tunnel, but I don't feel I need to do that.

The main issue is the head restraint 'ears' are large and I have the seat high. I don't have any room to move it towards the center, but let me see what your solution was, maybe I can get some ideas :)

I also have the seat position so I am not too far off from the pedals/steering. It feels good, and I can live with a slightly offset roof brace for the extra driver comfort.

Thanks again.

Steve, do you use a bolt and a loose nut to attach the side supports to the car, or did you weld a nut in place or tap a plate... Seems like a loose nut would be the easiest to fab, but a bit of a pain to install.

Steve, do you use a bolt and a loose nut to attach the side supports to the car, or did you weld a nut in place or tap a plate... Seems like a loose nut would be the easiest to fab, but a bit of a pain to install.

Side supports for what, the seat?You mean how the seat mounting brackets are bolted to the car? Right now its very easy to access the hardware to bolt it to the seat mount base.

I had to notch my tunnel to get my Recaro XL seat in the car. It interfered with the B-pillar b/c of the curved shape of the floor to tunnel area. I tied the seat mounting into my cage so it is not floor mounted. SteveJ, any particular reason you mounted your seat to the floor and not to the cage?

I had to notch my tunnel to get my Recaro XL seat in the car. It interfered with the B-pillar b/c of the curved shape of the floor to tunnel area. I tied the seat mounting into my cage so it is not floor mounted. SteveJ, any particular reason you mounted your seat to the floor and not to the cage?

I have a "small" seat, but its tall due to the large head restraint 'ears,' abnormally large I would say actually. The seat mount i did a while ago, like in 2006 lol the car sat for 2007 as I had no garage, but I was planning to integrate the seat mount into the cage. Now that the cage is prob 80% done, I'm figuring out a clean way to support it by some of the cage, although i'm not sure if much support is required. This is why I have not done any of the drivers side door stuff yet, still thinking about it.

Any ideas, please share, thanks!

Not much cage to tie in to, unless I run a straight tubes from the base of the bpillar to the base of apillar, and go off that to a reinforcement plate on the trans tunnel. The mount right now is fairly beefy though, it ties into 4 points on the floor/tunnel, and into the front factory seat cross brace.

SteveJ
This is what I did. You can't see the seat mounting tabs/plates with multiple height holes in the pic. It did necessitate an additional horizontal tube but I figure this tube does add a bit of strength in the event of a t-bone type collision. I wish I had had this tube in my old car after going into the woods at VIR. A short tree stump did some damage.

Ah, ok.
Is there any support under those tubes, or are they just spanned from the front support to that rear tube?

I retained my front seat cross brace, and tied into that, so I actually think mine is pretty structural, but I do think I could have gone lower.

I'm going to snap a picture tonight of my sabelt next to some other seats we have around, it'll show just how tall it is. I'll get everything situated in the ca (pedals, seat, steering, and see how my vision is. I sat on the floor in my E36 (seat was fitted for Sofronas), and I strained to see sometimes, so I like having a good field of view. My dash will be the same height as the base of the window, so thats not an obstruction.

What I could do is cut out what I have and start fresh. Run a sqaure tube across for the rear support, and just put down a flat steel plate to mount everything to. I'll mock it all up tonight and see just where everything falls in place, and I'll snap pics to show, maybe we'll spark up a good idea by collaborating ideas, thanks. Its hard to tell without driving if the seat could be lower, but I sat in an e46 m3 street car we have here, and at its lowest seat height I don't feel comfortable.

The fore/aft tubes are tied into the floor in a few spots on each side.

Justins is kinda like mine also. Except mine goes all the way up to the shoulder harness bar.

You can just slightly see the pelvic strap eyebolt under the (upper) lap belt eyebolt. I am using a 7 point harness. I don't see how one can use a 7 point unless the seat is built for it.

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/seatmount.jpg

I sat in an e46 m3 street car we have here, and at its lowest seat height I don't feel comfortable.

It takes a few laps, but you get used to it. I'm 6'3" and cant see the hood. :devillook

You can just slightly see the pelvic strap eyebolt under the (upper) lap belt eyebolt. I am using a 7 point harness. I don't see how one can use a 7 point unless the seat is built for it.



Whats the angle the 7pt harness dictates for the subbelt mounts, looks like they are pretty much straight back, with the center right underneath.

Before I do anything I have to figure out if my seat is at a good height, if it happens to be just a tall ass seat, i'll have to work around it.

It takes a few laps, but you get used to it. I'm 6'3" and cant see the hood. :devillook

Yea, I got used to it...but its not what I would prefer. Same thing when i run formula cars, my eyeline is barely over the steering wheel, although in those cars its a bit different since you can see the tires lol

This was taken at about 10' in the air looking down, so you can see how low i was sitting, its not what I prefer. It has a tendency to give me the feeling the car is bigger than it is. I'll get pictures this evening of the seat mounted, and get your opinions, but I'll show just how tall the "medium" sized seat is. I'll also measure the sightline.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/jaffstere36.jpg

Does your seating position have to be adjustable?

http://fmjmotorsports.com/328is/PICT1055.JPG

note the seat mounting point in the far right side of the pic. We just used a BFH to move the trans tunnel out of the way a bit.

Whats the angle the 7pt harness dictates for the subbelt mounts, looks like they are pretty much straight back, with the center right underneath.

Before I do anything I have to figure out if my seat is at a good height, if it happens to be just a tall ass seat, i'll have to work around it.
Steve, I'll go down to the shop and try and get some pics that may help show what I have.
First though Steve, how do you expect to run the pelvic belts on your seat? Do you have openings for them? If not then you may as well just go with a six point.

My center 'crotch' belt eyebolt is about directly under the seats opening. The two pelvic belt eyes are back a few inches (I will look at this closer when I go to the shop) and the laps are maybe an inch to nill back from the side openings.

Have a look at this. http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/ctrp_0710_seven_points_of_safety/index.html

Who said I was not going with a 6pt? I actually just recieved the Schroth Hybrid IIH today :)

I also got some sheet metal in so i can work on some gussets on this 3 day weekend!

I'm going in the garage now, i'll upload pics later of everything.

Steve, hope it's OK with you that I post these here. No prob if you want me to take them down.

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/seatbelts1.jpg

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/seatbelts12.jpg

Here is how I did my "friggin" right side net.
http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/rightsidenet1.jpg

http://ghmyc_1m.tripod.com/rightsidenet12.jpg

Thanks, definitely no prob having the pics here. Little bit of roundy round technology entering the german Mini ehy... lol Looks good.

Ok, garage time, later!

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/jaffstere36.jpg
Man, who let their kid drive their car???!!! I keed, I keed...

I'd consider myself a kid from when that pic was taken, I was still in college.

Ok so seat update. I have 1.5" of room to move the inner seat bracket over.

Issue 1: Seat corner hits trans tunnel...can't move it, its a cross brace and shfiter support location.

Issue 2: Even moved all the way over, I still won't have enough room to join the tubes on top.

Now as far as lowering the seat, it would actually mean the seat would come over more to the outside, although if its lower it would be out of the way of the tubes.

I just put in the pedals and steering, and I don't think I can lower the seat anymore. My eyeline is just above the window base now.

I took a picture comparing a standard OMP seat next to my Sabelt, and you can see just how large the 'ears' are. I'll run in and upload it in a minute.

So it looks like I'll be leaving it as is, and just won't have the tubes touching on the roof tube, they'll probably be about 4-5" between them. Not a big deal really...I can definitely join them on the passenger side though. Won't be symmetrical, but it'll be stronger I guess.

Seat comparison, i'll grab a pic of it in the car and post it up later as well.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/seatcomp.jpg

Some pics from tonight: http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-19-08/

Mounted the seat/steering/pedals and the harness that came in today. Also, thanks to HMS for the harness. Window net and right side net are on their way.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-19-08/main/p3180001.jpg


Even though the seat is mounted higher than normal, you can still see where the big 'ears' get in the way. So the Apillar will go as close as possible on the front side of the ear, and the bpillar support will go as close as it can behind the ear. Should be fine.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-19-08/main/p3180002.jpg


I also finished up the passenger Xbrace, and did 2 gussets. I'm also going to do two gussets on the bottom, supporting the center jack tube.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-19-08/main/p3190004.jpg

It seems like your problem is because you moved it back so far, as well as your seat choice. There has to be smaller seats out there that will fit ... have you looked at the Sparco circuit? I think it has smaller wings on it.

It seems like your problem is because you moved it back so far, as well as your seat choice. There has to be smaller seats out there that will fit ... have you looked at the Sparco circuit? I think it has smaller wings on it.

Actually, from what I have been told, Sabelt did testing for the seat ( my distributor - teamdi/sabelt usa - has the test video who ) which Sparco uses for the Circuit...its the exact same seat. Maybe Brad knows if it is in fact the exact same shell, he deals a lot with Sparco.

It seems all the head restraint seats are this tall...sucks. Maybe someone makes a "small" seat though, as this is a medium.

Any other vertically challenged individuals with a known small head restraint seat?

Thanks

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/ltbmotorsport_1991_22403393


The racetech seat is 34" high, Sparco circuit pro is 36.5"....so if my seat is the same (i'll confirm later) then I might need a different seat...

It will be interesting to see just how close your head is when you get it all together. Padded or not, I didn't want my head anywhere close to steel tubing.

It will be interesting to see just how close your head is when you get it all together. Padded or not, I didn't want my head anywhere close to steel tubing.

Sorry to bum you out, but I got in the car with harness, hans and helmet last night...TONS of room to any tube. Sorry for disappointing you, I know how much you want to find my faults...find some others though before I finish so I can correct anything I overlooked. Constructive criticism is welcomed...thats one of the purposes of this thread, it helps as this is overwhelming for one person to do and I know something will be overlooked that others will catch. Thanks

Do you have a picture of you sitting in your car for reference? I'll measure the distances to all the tubes within 2' of my head and we'll compare.

Jeez Steve. It wasn't meant that way at all. Up too late last night? Damn.

This is the only pic I have of someone in my car. It's the XL version of the seat you have. The guy flipping the bird is a little ticked at me for taking the pic. He spun my car twice in one lap, so I wouldnt let him out of the car before I got a shot. Anyhow...his head is at roughly the same height as mine, maybe a half inch lower, because he's sitting on a bunch of padding.

http://fmjmotorsports.com/328is/snookadirtydog.jpg

Sorry to bum you out, but I got in the car with harness, hans and helmet last night...TONS of room to any tube. Sorry for disappointing you, I know how much you want to find my faults...find some others though before I finish so I can correct anything I overlooked. Constructive criticism is welcomed...thats one of the purposes of this thread, it helps as this is overwhelming for one person to do and I know something will be overlooked that others will catch. Thanks

Do you have a picture of you sitting in your car for reference? I'll measure the distances to all the tubes within 2' of my head and we'll compare.

Pot, meet kettle.

On the topic though, I found the cobra seats (Evolution S and Sebring S) to be much lower compared to my Recaro Hans SPG. They were way too short for me, but might be a good fit for you?

Pot, meet kettle.

On the topic though, I found the cobra seats (Evolution S and Sebring S) to be much lower compared to my Recaro Hans SPG. They were way too short for me, but might be a good fit for you?

How so? I am always constructive, I never put anyone down or say they are dumb, merely offer suggestions and discuss...its an internet DISCUSSION forum! Thanks for the Cobra recomendation, I'll look into it.

Jeez Steve. It wasn't meant that way at all. Up too late last night? Damn.

This is the only pic I have of someone in my car. It's the XL version of the seat you have. The guy flipping the bird is a little ticked at me for taking the pic. He spun my car twice in one lap, so I wouldnt let him out of the car before I got a shot. Anyhow...his head is at roughly the same height as mine, maybe a half inch lower, because he's sitting on a bunch of padding.



I was serious, totally sincere...I truly do want the feedback. I have a lot going on right now, and if i lose track or forget something I am hoping someone will catch it.

Thanks,
Steven

+1 for the cobra. Call HMS again Steve and have Jeffy take a measurement. Ours is really low, hopefully it's what your looking for!

+1 for the cobra. Call HMS again Steve and have Jeffy take a measurement. Ours is really low, hopefully it's what your looking for!

Thanks. Cobra Sebring is 35.5, only 1" shorter, the racetech is 34.5"

The Evolution S is 34.5 though...

yeah, that's the one we have. Head bolsters are skinny guys too. Big hoop but thin.

yeah, that's the one we have. Head bolsters are skinny guys too. Big hoop but thin.

Which, the Evolution S or Sebring?

Thanks

Evolution S :

http://www.cobraseatsusa.com/images.products/cobra/evolution.blue.black.jpg

I spent this morning fitting my Racetech 4009HR. It is TALL! I'm told RT makes a thinner bottom pad that will drop me down another inch or so.

Evolution S (maybe doesn't have an S, it's not 2 tone) Best of the best for the HMS mobile! comfy comfy

Well, I might just have to go with a non-head restraint seat. With the right side net required anyways, its kind of a waste anyways.

I've got a 3 day weekend to play around, I'll mockup the apillars and take some measurements...I just don't think even with the smallest seat i found (34" height) it'll be any better than what I have now.

I'm not a big fan of the non headrest seat with a right side net. It folds over the seat and I feel like it would stop your head in a funny position in a side hit. One mans useless opinion:)

Yea, the reason i wanted the head restraint seat was because safety wise it is superior.

I'll mockup the Apillar tonight with cardboard and see how it is.

Its really not that bad...to give you a reference, my sight line is actually UNDER the head restraight, but since the head restraight is angled, with my helmet/harness on, it would take my body to basically come out of the harness to have my head come around...and thats where the right side net comes into play I guess.

Maybe I'll get a shot of me in the seat and show where my head falls in relation to the seat, maybe I can get some better input then.

3 day weekend is here, wahoo! 3days/4 nights of racecar'n.

Well, I might just have to go with a non-head restraint seat. With the right side net required anyways, its kind of a waste anyways.

how so?

from my understanding they serve two different purposes: head restraint seats, pretty obviously, are to reduce head movement in side impacts while right side nets are there to keep your body in the seat during a side or offset impacts and to make sure you don't rebound outside of the seat (especially in offset impacts)....pretty sure right side nets aren't meant for head restraint...

how so?

from my understanding they serve two different purposes: head restraint seats, pretty obviously, are to reduce head movement in side impacts while right side nets are there to keep your body in the seat during a side or offset impacts and to make sure you don't rebound outside of the seat (especially in offset impacts)....pretty sure right side nets aren't meant for head restraint...

From the crash testing I have seen, if you are OUT of the seat that much, i'd more more worried about other things than a small net holding you from moving to the right. For your body to be that far out of the seat your harnesses would have to have failed. I have not seen any crash test footage of right side nets with a head restraint seat yet though, does anyone have a link?

As of right now (i'm in the garage looking over everything) I think I am just sticking with what i have, an modify the cage design/plans slightly. Its all extra support anyways, it just won't be 100% optimal and meet at one node/intersection.

Also, I got my Solid engine/trans/diff mounts from Evosport today, very trick, I love the black anodized. I'm just waiting on the solid subframe mounts from them and I should be good to mount up all suspension after I finish cage/paint. I am ordering my lathe soon, I think I decided on the Precision Matthews 1127. Once I have that here and setup, I can start making all my suspension pieces to finish it off.

Not true - the belts stretch a huge amount in a wreck and the common issue is the driver rebounding outside the seat on the right side.

I have not seen any crash test footage of right side nets with a head restraint seat yet though, does anyone have a link?

don't have the link and can't recall where i saw it but i have seen a vid of an offset impact test with a HR seat with no right side net where the dummy rebounded outside of the "halo"...harnesses did not fail...very eye opening footage. really wish i could find it again...

Yes, I'm aware of the belt stretch...but it does not stretch 10-12", especially if you are using Eyebolts for mounting.

The massive amounts of stretch come when you mount the shoulder harness to a bar thats 2-3' away, and there is a lot of material to stretch.

It also depends on the seat and height of the person, because if you are large you are closer to the front edge of the seat head restraint.

I've also seen footage without right side net...but i have yet to see one with, especially a comparative test where it shows the exact benefits.

Seat crash vids:http://www.racetechseatsna.com/multimedia.html

In the first vid you can the driver bounce off his co-driver.The one with the 55 Chevy is scary. I think it is the second one.

Seth wrecked at LRP in a relatively mild one a couple of years ago and in the vid I am quite sure he went over 10" and the shoulders were wrapped and not 2-3' away. Eric Curran turned his chest black at Sebring - I am guessing he went further than 10" also.

Seth wrecked at LRP in a relatively mild one a couple of years ago and in the vid I am quite sure he went over 10" and the shoulders were wrapped and not 2-3' away. Eric Curran turned his chest black at Sebring - I am guessing he went further than 10" also.

I'm looking for videos if anyone has. I don't see anything very relevant to what we're specifically looking for on racetechs website.

I have no doubt there can be 10"+ of movement, but what are the conditions? What seat? How is the seat mounted? How are the harnesses mounted? Was the driver fully tightened? Etc. Its all this stuff that will add up to the belt stretch, every place there is 1/4 "-1/2" of movement all adds up. The actually belts can only stretch so much...we're only talking a couple feet single length at most (shoulder belts). I'm sure there is data, but its probably not published. I'll go through SAE's papers, maybe they have some stuff to help the discussion.

Do you have incar from Seths crash?

What exactly happened to Curran to make his chest "black?" Was it the impact of the belts, did he hit something else, did his hans device cause more injury to his chest than the belts?

I'm playing devils advocate, I am research this safety stuff and want facts, not "i thinks" or "I'm guessings."

I'll try to see if I can get some footage from Sabelt USA.

I will take "Seth tightens his belts pretty darn tight for $500 Alex."

None of my post was "I think" or "Im guessing" - when you make it to the track you see stuff like this :) All belts were tight. Seats rarely move forward in an impact, but ours are Racetech Viper versions that are firmly tied in. Our tech process really doesn't allow things that might not be up to the "Steve J standard". Safety is important stuff and not for leading people down the wrong path. I strongly urge you to do the research first. Joe Marko at Schroth has a ton of video that may work for you.

This is the research...I'm asking questions and trying to learn where people are making mistakes. The device is only as good as its installation. I'm definitely going to consult w Joe Marko.

I've seen some World challenge cars from lower budget teams that passed tech...they were pretty scary. I hate to see the videos of the cars racing anywhere (see it many times in europe) with the harnesses that are mounted like 3' back to a bar on the cage...or sometimes even towards the floor.

Do you have any pictures of how your racetech seat is tied in? Does it use that big flat brace they require on the back of it? Do other seat manufacturers require that for the fia homologation certification as well?

I do get to the track, it just has not been with a BMW for a couple years.

What I am really after is video footage of a right side net being tested with a head restraint seat. I want to learn how it helps.

I'm surprised more companies in europe don't have smaller seats, the avg european pro driver is about my size :)

I'm surprised more companies in europe don't have smaller seats, the avg european pro driver is about my size :)

Almost all of them do...most every manufacturer makes a larger seat for the US market. A few years ago I tried to sit in a Sparco seat that I couldn't even get my 32 inch waste into.

Maybe its just the naming convention then? I only see Mediums offered and all the XL's for the fat american racers lol But I can't find any small seats. Specifically, the shoulder harness slots are something I would like slightly lower. The head restraint height as well, b/c while it is convenient to be able to see under the ear, I don't think its how its supposed to be used. I'm driving over to my friends company right now, he used to be OMP USA, and now he's Sabelt USA, maybe he has some good info.

Just email Jeff or Joe at HMS, they have been doing a lot of testing with the right side nets recently... you'll notice I took mine out to do some redesigning/ mounting on my pics. The one I just did on the E30 JS car, I didn't like the way it tried to fold over the top of the seat since it would force your head sideways. So he's putting in a HR seat. The net should be catching your shoulder, not your head. your height is going to make that slightly tougher than most.
And, yeah, your ears sound like they might be a little high. The cobra would work fine since the ears come down so low.

I doubt too many people on this list have had a wreck bad enough to stretch the belts and continued with the sport.

I big fat brace is not required for our seats. Besides, we use the Viper Comp Coupe spec seats with the seat brace structurally tied into the shell of the seat.

I doubt too many people on this list have had a wreck bad enough to stretch the belts and continued with the sport.

I big fat brace is not required for our seats. Besides, we use the Viper Comp Coupe spec seats with the seat brace structurally tied into the shell of the seat.


Crap, I've stretched three sets.:(
And I've stretched my hans straps.

Maybe I should retire...

I doubt too many people on this list have had a wreck bad enough to stretch the belts

I don't resemble that remark...

The Sabelts/Schroth have a stretch rating of 3%...its not the actual belt thats stretching, in reality its your body thats taking up the slack. Many other belts have a stretch rating of 7% (different between Nylon and polyester, Polyester having the better rating).

I still don't quite understand the exact purpose of the right side net, especially with a head restraint equipped seat.

I am searching FIA regulations for right side nets, and I don't see anything.

I shot Joe an email, I'll see what info he has. I'm trying to track down Sabelts footage, they have inhouse testing, but it seems to have disappeared from their website.

Racetechs stuff is interesting, b/c its FIA Homologated only when the back brace is used...does that mean they failed the test without the backbrace?

The 8855-1999 homologation dates back to 2003, and it only requires a dynamic test consisting of 20g rearward and 15g side...I think the current tests are upto 70G's.

the video I saw that made them come up with the right side net was the guy that took a pretty light impact into a wall at an angle and broke through the head restraints.

Crap, I've stretched three sets.:(
And I've stretched my hans straps.

Maybe I should retire...

Nah, you've got 6 more stretches before you need to retire.

Quick update: I decided to get the drivers door bars in tonight, and the center jack tube for it. I mocked up the Apillars, and they should be good to go at the radius I came up with in CAD. I thought it might obstruct the side view mirror, but i can see it just fine.

I closed up the two holes where the tubes went through the firewall.

I also made reinforcement plates that go on the base of the main hoop "X" where i had to "mold" the back seat to make room for the tubes (molded using a BFH lol).

I'll have pics tomorrow, my server is being moved right now, or so they say...

As far as what's left cage wise...two tubes to get into engine bay (waiting for engine to make sure its clearanced properly), two small support tubes to the center of the dash to the top of the trans tunnel cross support, some small tacos on the dash bar, Apillars/gussets, Bpillar gussets, roof gusset, and drivers side door gussets. I should have all the gussets (minus dash bar) done this weekend.

Its my Birfday, so i'll probably lose the good part of tomorrow night to that...but I should be able to get some work in during the afternoon.

Happy birthda