Read a while back that BMW was considering an actual limited-slip diff as a possible dealer installed option, any voracity to this claim?

Side note: I love the fact that you can now add individual options instead of an package of stuff that you don't want. I'll be taking mine in Montego Blue Metallic please. :D

That LSD is part of the performance parts BMW is supposed to start offering. I believe the LSD is only for the E46.

They may have been conidering it, but I don't think its going to happen, especially now that BMW has spent time developing the diff in the 135i to act similar to an LSD in certain circumstances. Read the latest issue of Bimmer for more on that.

Sadly, I think enthusiasts will have to make doue with the LSD wannabe or install one themselves. Remember the days when nearly all 3ers had LSDs? Thems was the days.

Sadly, I think enthusiasts will have to make doue with the LSD wannabe or install one themselves. Remember the days when nearly all 3ers had LSDs? Thems was the days.

It's sad indeed when BMW's competitors (even lowly civics) offer LSD's in their sportier offerings. BMW's performance roots are eroding for sure.

It's sad indeed when BMW's competitors (even lowly civics) offer LSD's in their sportier offerings. BMW's performance roots are eroding for sure.
Yeah, no matter how many times we enthusiasts bemoan the lack of LSDs and ever increasing vehicle heft, BMW seems torn: they make a smaller (supposedly) lighter car like the 1 series to bring back the roots, then they cut go-fast goodies (LSD) in the name of cost and make it portly. I couldn't believe it when I read how much the 135i was going to weigh.

It seems like half the company wants to go one way, while the other half wants to go another (Exp. giving the new M3 a CF roof and V8 lighter than the outgoing Six, but then having it weigh in almost as much as my Mother's new RAV4, or not equipping the 135i with a limited slip but spending RD costs and time creating an LSD wannabe.)

I guess this is what happens when an enthusiast company starts seeing dollar signs and tries to be everything to everyone. I wish BMW would just be happy with its cake. Driving enthusiasts.
I (an enthusiast) still wouldn't mind owning an 135i for a DD, so I guess BMW is still getting what they want. Until sales get hit, and we start buying Civics with LSDs, I think we are Limited slipless in the E87.

Thanks guys. You all have really echoed my own thoughts.....

Yeah, no matter how many times we enthusiasts bemoan the lack of LSDs and ever increasing vehicle heft, BMW seems torn: they make a smaller (supposedly) lighter car like the 1 series to bring back the roots, then they cut go-fast goodies (LSD) in the name of cost and make it portly. I couldn't believe it when I read how much the 135i was going to weigh.

It seems like half the company wants to go one way, while the other half wants to go another (Exp. giving the new M3 a CF roof and V8 lighter than the outgoing Six, but then having it weigh in almost as much as my Mother's new RAV4, or not equipping the 135i with a limited slip but spending RD costs and time creating an LSD wannabe.)

I guess this is what happens when an enthusiast company starts seeing dollar signs and tries to be everything to everyone. I wish BMW would just be happy with its cake. Driving enthusiasts.
I (an enthusiast) still wouldn't mind owning an 135i for a DD, so I guess BMW is still getting what they want. Until sales get hit, and we start buying Civics with LSDs, I think we are Limited slipless in the E87.

You're mistaken on one HUGE point--BMW is not an enthusiast company. It caters mostly to corporate big shots that use their cars as status symbols that want to feel like they can drive.

Read a while back that BMW was considering an actual limited-slip diff as a possible dealer installed option, any voracity to this claim?


Sorry, have to do it (I teach HS English): the word you're looking for is veracity.

I doubt it, too; BMW has only been putting LSD's in the M cars for a few years now. They believe the Electronic Traction Control Systems (pick your acronym please) make up for them.

Best bet? Get a better one installed after purchased. Turner Motorsport, Diffsonline, Metric Mechanic, etc...

Taken from forums at stangnet (dot) com

"Michael Yount10-31-05, 07:03 AM
Positraction and TracLoc(k) are simply the brand names that companies - GM and Ford respectively - have chosen to describe their limited slip differentials. There are lots of different types of limited slip differentials. However, both positraction and tracloc limited slips operate in the same manner. Contrasted with a simple open differential which sends power only to one tire and allows the other to freewheel (when turning), limited slip differentials send power to BOTH rear tires. However, there are spring loaded clutches in the differential which, when they sense a speed differential between the two rear tires (as when turning), allow some 'limited slip' in the clutches. This allows the outside tire to turn faster than the inside tire eliminating any scrub or 'chirping'. There are other ways to achieve this limited slip effect besides with clutch packs. Torsen-type LSD's and the TrueTrac brand use a series of worm gears and sliders to achieve a similar effect - but in the case of the Torsen - more power is sent to the tire with the MOST traction. Whether clutch-type or gear-type -- LSD's generally work completely unobtrusively. You don't know they're there -- you just know the car corners quietly, but when you get on it - you have traction to both tires. However, the TrueTrac and Torsen units have nothing to wear out; unlike clutch-type LSD's which have to have springs/plates replaced when they wear out. I run a TrueTrac unit in the Dana rear end in my Volvo.

There are also automatic and manual locking differentials, and spools. A spool basically LOCKS the two axles together -- THERE IS NO DIFFERENTIAL. The term differential exists because that unit allows a SPEED differential between inner and outer tires when turning -- a spool doesn't allow this. A spool-piece usually slides into the female ends of the axle splines in the gutted differential between the axle ends. The cheapest and least elegant version of a 'spool' is simply welding the spider gears together -- done by MANY racers.

Lockers -- automatic and manually locked rear ends -- have a series of dog clutches that are either locked or they're not. The automatic units lock both axles together UNLESS they sense a speed differential between inner and outer tires -- when they sense that they unlock. They are typically quite noisy as they 'ratchet' in and out of locked position, although newer models have gotten better. Manual locking unit’s work the same way (dog clutches) however - you choose whether and when they are locked. This can be done a number of ways - usually you'll see them electronically or pneumatically operated.

For street cars limited slip diffs seem to offer the best compromise, although some like lockers and are willing to live with the noise compromise. For drag racers and some oval track cars a spool is all that's needed. For road racers and autocrosses, a good LSD is usually preferred since they have to negotiate turns. However, you'll see some spools there as well. In my road race car, we simply welded the spider gears together to 'lock' the rear end up - worked just like a spool. Made for interesting noises and tire scuffing in the pits -- but on the track, the radius of the turns was so big you didn't notice it."


My guess is BMW puts in a Limited Slip Diff(clutch type) on all non M cars and the M cars get a Torsen type(worm gear). The clutch type will work just as well in all Non race type of driving and may work just fine on track days where you run 20-30 minutes and let the car cool off.

My wife's BMW Z3 roadster has some type of LSD and it is just a 2.5 Auto with the sport option. My guess is it is a Clutch type and the M model gets the Torsen type(worm gear) if you read the explanation above the worm gear type will send more power to the wheel with more traction and the clutch type will keep sending power to the wheel with less traction. I seriously doubt BMW puts an open diff like your grandmother’s old Granada that only sends power to one wheel all the time. Remember those smoky one wheel burnouts?

Could someone verify what BMW puts on the One series and all non M models?

Um, not sure what type of LSD is in M cars, but non-M's really do have traditional open diffs, sad huh? I'm lucky... My car was on of the last non M's to get an LSD from the factory.

Factory LSD ftw. Oh wait, that was in the E30 is package...

The electronic LSD does a great job at the expense of brake pad wear. A mechanical differential costs more, weighs more and has higher maintanence costs than the electronic counter part. I do not know if it will be in the performance catalong anymore for the newer cars (supposedly there will be one avaialble for E46 cars). However, I'm being told that the new 335 and 135 differentials are welded there by making them ineligible for a core refund because they are useless to the rest of the world.

Expense of speed too one would think. If it's using the ABS system to do the job...

Um, not sure what type of LSD is in M cars, but non-M's really do have traditional open diffs, sad huh? I'm lucky... My car was on of the last non M's to get an LSD from the factory.


If in fact the BMW has an open diff then no matter what the electronic LSD did only one wheel would pull. For example your grandmothers granada has an open diff and if you apply brakes to the pulling wheel the non pulling wheel would not get more power. It is basically there just to hold up that side of the car.

I know my wife's 2002 Z3 has some type of limited slip. If BMW is installing a true open diff in a car that has 300HP they are crazy. One tire will not grip enough to put that much power to the ground.

If they do not have some type of lsd then I will not consider the car period. My son's 1996 150HP V6 mustang has a open diff and it will peal the right tire about as long as you want it to. My wife's 2002 189HP Z3 will barley chirp the tires even with the electronics off unless you brake torque it(it is an auto). If her car had an open diff I doubt I could afford to keep tires on the right side.

I know my wife's 2002 Z3 has some type of limited slip. If BMW is installing a true open diff in a car that has 300HP they are crazy. One tire will not grip enough to put that much power to the ground.

Nope... no limited slip, it's an electronic LSD that detects excessive wheel spin on one side and applies brakes to the spinning side so the power goes to the other side.

Anyone have any experience with the e-Diff, does it perform anywhere close to a true LSD???

its ok, people should shorten the gearing on their bmw's anyway. how many people really drive their e36's/e46's at redline in the highest gear? despite how much we want it to be, this isn't germany.

Anyone have any experience with the e-Diff, does it perform anywhere close to a true LSD???

It's good ... but not perfect.

its ok, people should shorten the gearing on their bmw's anyway. how many people really drive their e36's/e46's at redline in the highest gear? despite how much we want it to be, this isn't germany.

It's not so much for redline in the highest gear, it's more for fuel economy so you are not turning 4000rpm at 60mph.

My guess is BMW puts in a Limited Slip Diff(clutch type) on all non M cars and the M cars get a Torsen type(worm gear). The clutch type will work just as well in all Non race type of driving and may work just fine on track days where you run 20-30 minutes and let the car cool off.

Could someone verify what BMW puts on the One series and all non M models?

Two answers and the site won't let me post a link as a new user.

For a thorough treatise on LSD, TBD, Lockers, spools, etc. Check the Guard website.

Bottom line from the Guardtransmission website
(a) Street / autocross - Torque-biasing (Quaife-Torsen, etc)
(b) Street / track - Torque-biasing if light-duty track use, with stock suspension. 40% limited-slip if car has stiff suspension or power upgrades.
(c) Track only - 80% limited-slip differential or spool.

There is another link off that website that delves into the development of modern race differentials. I have driven all three on the track and will be paying the extra money for a Guard 80/80. For what its worth the welded dif should not be used in a serious race car. Incredible amounts of low speed push.

I think the question on what dif has been answered -- electronic wizardry using brakes, consider it an extension of stability management.

I ordered the 135 on Monday.

You're mistaken on one HUGE point--BMW is not an enthusiast company. It caters mostly to corporate big shots that use their cars as status symbols that want to feel like they can drive.


Is this a joke? If BMW is not an enthusiast company then who is??? Just b/c you're a corporate big shot doesn't mean you're not an enthusiast. I know numerous people who make 500k+ that track their cars all the time. Not just because they have the money to....b/c they love it. You are way off base here.

Is this a joke? If BMW is not an enthusiast company then who is??? Just b/c you're a corporate big shot doesn't mean you're not an enthusiast. I know numerous people who make 500k+ that track their cars all the time. Not just because they have the money to....b/c they love it. You are way off base here.

BMW has enthusiast tendencies (less and less as the years pass)...but are ruled by bean counters now.

BMW has enthusiast tendencies (less and less as the years pass)...but are ruled by bean counters now.


That $25K base Mustang GT is looking better all the time. At least it has a limited slip rear and it makes 300HP without a turbo. Ford will sell you a factory installed supercharger that will bump it to 400HP and will give a warranty if it is installed by the dealer.

That $25K base Mustang GT is looking better all the time. At least it has a limited slip rear and it makes 300HP without a turbo. Ford will sell you a factory installed supercharger that will bump it to 400HP and will give a warranty if it is installed by the dealer.

power isn't everything

for a BMW commercial a few years ago..."Happiness is not around the corner, happiness IS the corner."

power isn't everything

for a BMW commercial a few years ago..."Happiness is not around the corner, happiness IS the corner."

Guess you are buying the 128?

I agree the mustang is more of a mallet than a scalpel but they are not as bad as they used to be. With a little work on the suspension they will run with a BMW on a road course and out run most on the straights. The point I was trying to make is even Ford knows a car with serious power needs a limited slip rear end. Audi who is a big Rival of BMW touts its quatro system. BMW is supposed to be "the ultimate driving machine" so why do they run a uno system with an electronic band aid.

Oh yeah I own a Z3 well actually my wife does and it is a pretty awsome machine even thought it is a 2.5 auto.

Guess you are buying the 128?

Yeah, that is the logical conclusion from the discussion....I am not getting either at this point in time.

I agree the mustang is more of a mallet than a scalpel but they are not as bad as they used to be. With a little work on the suspension they will run with a BMW on a road course and out run most on the straights. The point I was trying to make is even Ford knows a car with serious power needs a limited slip rear end.

The same Ford that decided to put in a live rear axle?

Audi who is a big Rival of BMW touts its quatro system. BMW is supposed to be "the ultimate driving machine" so why do they run a uno system with an electronic band aid.

Which goes back to my earlier post...

"BMW has enthusiast tendencies (less and less as the years pass)...but are ruled by bean counters now."

Yeah, that is the logical conclusion from the discussion....I am not getting either at this point in time.



The same Ford that decided to put in a live rear axle?



Which goes back to my earlier post...

"BMW has enthusiast tendencies (less and less as the years pass)...but are ruled by bean counters now."

I think we are kind of on the same page. I would love to order a 135 or 335 BMW but at this time it is not to be..

As for the Ford with a live axle they tried the IRS in the 2003-2004 supercharged Cobra and it was not what the Ford fans wanted. With the torque of the supercharged v8 the axles were not up to the task and there was severe axle hop. I think I stated the ford was a mallet and the BMW is more a precision instrument. On a road course the Stang will more than hold its own against many a german wondercar. The base on a Mustang GT is about $25K and a 135 BMW with similar power and options will run at least $10k more. If BMW offered a Limited Slip for say $800 more that would be a very popular option. Why they do not offer one at all does not make any sense on a company that touts its performance heritage. As you pointed out BMW is becoming a overpriced shadow of its former self. They need to keep their base of performance minded customers in mind before they let some accountant determine that they can save warranty claims by eliminating a LSD. Maybe they can follow Mercdes Benz and offer only Automatics on almost all of thier cars.

Maybe I should have compared the 135 to a Corvette but the Vette is not a coupe.

Don't geet me wrong I think BMW's are great cars but when even Ford can figure out a powerful car needs at least two legs BMW shoud be ashamed to not offer one on a twin turbo performance Coupe.

Come on is someone in Germany at least reading the BMW forums? My guess it is the Warranty department looking for guys and girls who actually drive their cars at over 80% of its capabilities.

I think we are kind of on the same page. I would love to order a 135 or 335 BMW but at this time it is not to be..

As for the Ford with a live axle they tried the IRS in the 2003-2004 supercharged Cobra and it was not what the Ford fans wanted. With the torque of the supercharged v8 the axles were not up to the task and there was severe axle hop. I think I stated the ford was a mallet and the BMW is more a precision instrument. On a road course the Stang will more than hold its own against many a german wondercar.

I am not exactly on the same page; because despite the fact that I was disappointed with the lack of an LSD, and I will not waste the money on a TBD, I still ordered the car. I have a wait and see attitude.

I can certainly vouch for what Aumoore said about the IRS on the Cobra. In November I had two successive Mustang students at VIR. The IRS could not get the power down coming out of Hog Pen without severe oscillation in the rear end, while the earlier Rousch car was much better through the same portion. The IRS worked so poorly that Ford switched back to a non-independent rear end.

I have also driven and instructed in cars that do not have LSDs; but do have some form of stability management that has helped both in braking through turn in and corner exit. It works well and BMW should have learned from years of experience and refining their version. On the other hand I chose a Gaurd unit for the 911.

E-Diff's braking has to slow the car down from dead stop runs. This could be the reason why 0-??? times vary so much from mag to mag.

jm2c...BMW isn't marketing the 1 for the track. It's marketing it for a enthusiast daily driver at a price point. 99.999% of the 1's will NEVER see the track and without actually putting the car into a corner at its limits you will not get the benefits of an LSD.

80% cornering getting onto a freeway is not going to need LSD.

The mags complaining about under steer is because they are testing the car on a track at it's max. Of course it's going to under steer with smaller front tires and ride friendly sways.

Unless you have ever had driver training and understand how to drive through a corner, you are better off and safer with a little under steer.


My question is:

Can the E-Diff's braking be defeated by turning off the traction controls?

If so, the 0-XX times should be increased once the proper launch technique to manage the torque is figured out.

Seems to me people are complaining about something that 99.9999% will never benefit from.

Sorry, have to do it (I teach HS English): the word you're looking for is veracity.

I doubt it, too; BMW has only been putting LSD's in the M cars for a few years now. They believe the Electronic Traction Control Systems (pick your acronym please) make up for them.

Best bet? Get a better one installed after purchased. Turner Motorsport, Diffsonline, Metric Mechanic, etc...

Sorry, have to do it, I teach college English.

- LSDs, not LSD's

- Get one installed, after purchase.

- BMW have been putting...

Sorry, have to do it, I teach college English.

- LSDs, not LSD's

- Get one installed, after purchase.

- BMW have been putting...
Sorry, I have to do it, I'm 17.....:shifty

If you go back to the root, Bayerische Moteren Werke, it translates to Bavarian Motor Works. Here, "works" is referencing a single entity. Thus, it would be the singular form of both words, as BMW would be referring to the Motor Works operation from Bavaria. The Motor Works is a single entity, not multiple operations. So, the correct form would be "BMW has been putting..."

The mags complaining about under steer is because they are testing the car on a track at it's max. Of course it's going to under steer with smaller front tires and ride friendly sways.

Unless you have ever had driver training and understand how to drive through a corner, you are better off and safer with a little under steer.

I have noticed a disturbing number of reports talking about pretty noticeable understeer, and then when I looked at the tire sizes it became pretty clear why.

215/40 R18 - 245/35 R18 F/R

That's a pretty big difference in tire width. I bet narrowing the difference between the front and rear track would really lively-up the handling and get rid of a lot of the plow.

I have noticed a disturbing number of reports talking about pretty noticeable understeer, and then when I looked at the tire sizes it became pretty clear why.

215/40 R18 - 245/35 R18 F/R

That's a pretty big difference in tire width. I bet narrowing the difference between the front and rear track would really lively-up the handling and get rid of a lot of the plow.

That and sways. Will lagers fit without offset. Will lagers "rub" on full turn in.

Again...99.9999% of the people aren't ever going to push the car than hard in cornering in daily driving and won't see track time in their car.

That and sways. Will lagers fit without offset. Will lagers "rub" on full turn in.

Again...99.9999% of the people aren't ever going to push the car than hard in cornering in daily driving and won't see track time in their car.
Maybe so, but such a differential in tire sizes will make itself apparent even during weekend canyon carving, and would really make a difference during autocrossing.

In my opinion, BMW's decision to fit those tire sizes is evidence of them moving away from their enthusiast base and catering to the 0-60, 1/4 mile crowd.

Maybe so, but such a differential in tire sizes will make itself apparent even during weekend canyon carving, and would really make a difference during autocrossing.

In my opinion, BMW's decision to fit those tire sizes is evidence of them moving away from their enthusiast base and catering to the 0-60, 1/4 mile crowd.

I agree.

Autocross guys will set these cars up different though. The serious canyon carving crowd is also the autocross crowd.

Once this car is out the suspension set ups will be posted quickly.


TQ and 0-xxx sells in the US.

So, can you light up the rear tires on these non-LSD, electronically controlled doo-dads? Can you kick the tail out?

I am one of those BMW freaks who's been waiting for this car for years, thinks the e30 was the greatest car made and I agree that it won't be what I want (too heavy, too much electronic garb). The 6cyl e46 ti would have been it, but to no avail. The first M couple is close, but not enough room. All I can say is that if it acts like my e46 with DSC, traction control and no LSD, then I won't be buying one.

300k miles of e30 LSD driving and no failures, including 10 yrs of autocross and track. How often do the sensors and control modules fail and how much do they cost? That's rhetorical, since I sold my shop last year and know the answers. It will be fun and the 135i will be fast, but it won't be a great car.

It might make my beater list for $3k in 10 yrs, though.

That $25K base Mustang GT is looking better all the time. At least it has a limited slip rear and it makes 300HP without a turbo. Ford will sell you a factory installed supercharger that will bump it to 400HP and will give a warranty if it is installed by the dealer.

ITS A FORD :rolleyes Doesn't handle at all like a BMW. NO COMPARISON.:rolleyes

I think both Ford and BMW have missed the point. Ford's dumping of the IRS was purely for cost reasons, as is BMW's lack of a real LSD.

To excuse Ford because the IRS had a poor showing on what was essentially a Fairmont does not give them a buy. I was impressed that SVT had the balls to at least try to make that old chassis design work - and was giddy at the thought of the '05 Mustangs coming out with a new, stiffer, modern chassis with an IRS designed from the ground up (as opposed to the add-on of the '99-'04 Cobra). But alas, not only dod Ford give us a cheap strut front end (instead of a LCA), they went cheap with a live axle. Far, FAR better than the live axle in the SN95, but no way to get a real IRS, not even from SVT.

And now we have BMW ignoring the enthusiasts with no true LSD, a weak instrument cluster (no water temp or oil press gauges), a fake dipstick that really doesn't work that well, and an attitude that says owners really should not open the hood and work on your own car.

Of the two cars, I do think BMW has the better overall car (it'd better for $10k+), but the Mustang is closer to a true enthusiast car as it is easier to work on. But it's far from perfect - it too needs better instrumentation and an IRS.

-Dave

Sorry, I have to do it, I'm 17.....

If you go back to the root, Bayerische Moteren Werke, it translates to Bavarian Motor Works. Here, "works" is referencing a single entity. Thus, it would be the singular form of both words, as BMW would be referring to the Motor Works operation from Bavaria. The Motor Works is a single entity, not multiple operations. So, the correct form would be "BMW has been putting..."

haha^

edit the internet!

...for the kids.


as for whether or not someone in Bavaria reads this forum, my guess is no. They most likely hire a firm to conduct costly market research, from which they create a schematic for counting beans, slowly.

Just asking knowlegable enthusiasts about the thoughts and opinions they're happy to share ON THE INTERNET is just too easy.
You don't cut corners when happiness is the corner?