I want to learn better downshifting in my m3 because I love sprited open road driving. I am just read posts about this tehnique on forum and here have good writing.

I have some question:
1. how fast are you learn heel&toe downshift tehnique?
2. how is look your first steps in learn heel&toe?

thanks

Props to croatia. Trust me, your written english is much better than my Croatian :)

Heel / Toe is not hard and could take as little as a few weeks to get pretty good if you do it all the time while driving on the street. I myself don't really remember learning as I've been doing it since I learned how to drive on my 1990 Volkswagen Jetta GLI. Imaging learning how to drive and heel toe at the same time. I'm sure I was horrible.

Changing pedals for optimum placement of brake and gas help but aren't neccessary. You want to get solid with the technique when you apply it to the track as mistakes could lead to upsetting the car during braking which is, well, not fun. Good luck!

Four years! I wasn't perfectly smooth until this year cause my gas pedal broke off at the top and I had to use better tekneek to keep the pedal from coming off the post.

Best trick I know is to just try and do it all the time. Every time you slow to a stop sign or whatever just rock your foot over and blip the gas to raise the revs as you clutch into the next lower gear.

All your friends and family will hate you as they will be dead tired of hearing the motor rev and buzz as you match the revs to the next lower gear but when your ears hear it but your butt doesn't feel it you know your doin it right.

One thing to note however is that doing this on the street or even spirited road driving, it's nothing like doing it on the track. You are just straining to get the car slowed down and to try and reach over there and blip the gas just so seems like a bad idea as your heading down the hill to the woods on the back straight at Mid Ohio at 140 mph getting ready to take the big right hander.

The pucker factor is significant.

If you have a clover-leaf type intersection, you can practice all day...shouldn't take more than 1-2 days of practice IMO. I think I picked it up well enough to use on track in 2-3 hours of practice around town in my Wrangler back when I was 16.

There's a good document about learning to heel & toe here:
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc

If you have a clover-leaf type intersection, you can practice all day...shouldn't take more than 1-2 days of practice IMO. I think I picked it up well enough to use on track in 2-3 hours of practice around town in my Wrangler back when I was 16.

There's a good document about learning to heel & toe here:
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc
link dont work

Works for me...sure you aren't missing the download dialogue? It's a link to a Word document...it won't show up in your browser.

Try a right-click, Save-As...

brake
clutch
shift
rev
clutch

repeat!
it's actually easier to do when higher in the rev range. just find somewhere that you can do a long oval in a parking lot or something and do laps shifting from 3rd to 2nd. you'll get it!

I forgot to mention that I can do it faster than Schumacher in my wife's GTI w/DSG!:D I can even do a two-gear downshift in mid corner in that car!:buttrock

Using good technique with the seat properly positioned and decent pedal arrangement (a BMW qualifies in this regard for most folks) one can learn the skill in a few hours and pretty much master it in a day or two. And I'm talking about a double de-clutch down shift . I saw folks that had little experience with manual transmissions and no experience with heel & toe become very proficient in two days at a Skip Barber school.

The technique that I find to work best (and what I saw taught at Skip Barber) has the seat close enough to the pedals to result in a generous bend in the right knee. Keeping your right heel planted at the bottom of the accelerator pedal, you twist the top of your foot over to the brake pedal just enough to have the ball of your foot on the pedal. That will cause your knee to swing to the left. To get the throttle blip you rock your foot while swinging your knee to the right.

Folks with small feet may find that a side extension of the accelerator pedal helps.

In case it isn't obvious, a double de-clutch down shift is:

1) On the brakes
2) Clutch pedal down
3) Transmission to neutral
4) Clutch pedal up
5) Throttle blip
6) Clutch pedal down
7) Gear selected
8) Clutch pedal up

is there some sort of advantage to double clutching?

is there some sort of advantage to double clutching?

It wastes time and effort? And I guess it makes you look cool.

Double clutching is only worthwhile if you've got a bad synchro or you're trying to take care of a dog-ring box. Otherwise, a simple blip will do.

Advantage to double clutching is that you will be able to drive a Vintage car!!!!!!!!!! I personally feel that it also causes less wear on the clutch/tranny over the life of the system. I have no Hard evidence to prove that, other than life experience in never having to change a clutch on a car after I replaced them when I bought them with dead clutches.

Some folks say it's a waste of extra time, but if done properly it takes no longer than a single clutch downshift.

Double-clutching is easier on the synchros.

Neil (who, nonetheless, heel and toes and does not double-clutch)

Some cars are harder to heel toe than others. My E30 was way easier than the E36 I have now.

Works for me...sure you aren't missing the download dialogue? It's a link to a Word document...it won't show up in your browser.

Try a right-click, Save-As...
now work

Takes a number of weeks, if you can manage to practice it on the street in a manual transmission daily driver... Its not hard.

It wastes time and effort? And I guess it makes you look cool.

Double clutching is only worthwhile if you've got a bad synchro or you're trying to take care of a dog-ring box. Otherwise, a simple blip will do.

Yep. Best to learn proper heel-toe first, then goof around with double de-clutching. No need to further confuse the poor fella.

in general, it takes about 3 weeks of focusing on something for it to be committed to motor-memory - for you to do it naturally. Post notes, etc. on the dashboard to keep reminding yourself to keep at it and it will happen.
bruce

If you have a clover-leaf type intersection, you can practice all day...shouldn't take more than 1-2 days of practice IMO. I think I picked it up well enough to use on track in 2-3 hours of practice around town in my Wrangler back when I was 16.

There's a good document about learning to heel & toe here:
http://www.tarheelbmwcca.org/Htoe2-msp.doc

I find it interesting that the writer of this article uses and only describes the "roll" technique to blip the throttle, rather than the traditional "heel and toe" technique? I personally prefer the traditional "heel and toe" technique. I have more confidence that the ball of my foot won't slip off the brake pedal this way, as opposed to rolling my foot, which for me makes me worry that when I roll my foot it might completely slip off the side of the brake pedal. Just my $0.02.

i wear an 11.5 shoe, it's impossible to do the traditional heel-toe, i use the side-blip method, and i've never missed the brake...

same with me; however, i've now moved to heel and toe instead of rolling.

when late braking in the last few events, i've needed the whole ball of my foot on the brake to properly modulate and slow my speed enough.

as an aside, ever try heel-toe'ing in a VW (NON DSG)? is it just me or does their pedal arrangement make it really difficult?

I learned in my truck. It was especially useful since the brakes on the ol' '84 Nissan 4x4 don't work that great (drums out back). I think it took me about two or three weeks to pick it up to the point where I was comfortable with it. The key though is making it second nature. Once you are to a point where you do it all the time without thinking about it and have it nice and smooth, that seems the point where you pretty much have it down.

Regarding the roll versus heel and toe, your primary concern is proper position on the brake pedal. If you have enough foot left over to reach the gas pedal, then roll it, otherwise heel and toe it.

i wear an 11.5 shoe, it's impossible to do the traditional heel-toe, i use the side-blip method, and i've never missed the brake...
my shoe is 12. I am try heel-toe but it imposible for me to touch gas.

use the side of your foot for the gas, dont try and twist your foot around so your heel is on the gas pedal. Just sort of put half of the ball of your foot on the brake and then the other half can blip on the gas pedal!

For what it's worth, when I started trying to get it, the hardest thing for me was keeping the brake modulated properly while blipping the throttle. Any time I'd blip, I'd usually brake even harder or let off the brake.

To get around that, I ended up finding a long stretch of unused road and taught myself to get the rev matching right first. I'd get up to fifth at a reasonable speed and let off, then would go down the gears as I as able based on road speed, and kept practicing exactly how much of a blip to give for each gear at different rev ranges (without the brakes). Then I'd go and practice braking with just the part of my foot I'd be using until I could get that right (not relying the feel of my whole foot on the brake). Once I got a good feel for both of those seperately is when I started practicing them together.

For what it's worth, when I started trying to get it, the hardest thing for me was keeping the brake modulated properly while blipping the throttle. Any time I'd blip, I'd usually brake even harder or let off the brake...
this is my problem. I am try several times this roll variante and allways when pick gas I litle release break pedal. ufffff, I need practice:buttrock

I want to learn better downshifting in my m3 because I love sprited open road driving. I am just read posts about this tehnique on forum and here have good writing.

I have some question:
1. how fast are you learn heel&toe downshift tehnique?
2. how is look your first steps in learn heel&toe?

thanks

On the street? About 2 months to learn, 6 months to perfect. And that's constant practicing, downshifting on every turn and every stop through every gear.

At the track? It took about 3-5 events to get comfortable with it.

On the street? About 2 months to learn, 6 months to perfect. And that's constant practicing, downshifting on every turn and every stop through every gear.

At the track? It took about 3-5 events to get comfortable with it.
why is on street time 10x longer?

why is on street time 10x longer?

As Bryan mentioned, if you have a clover leaf intersection where there's no traffic, you can practice all you like. Normally, however, on the street you want be able to be as repetitive as needed to program your brain to the new method you're teaching yourself. On track, you can do lap after lap of the same, consistant thing over and over. It's just harder to do that on public roads.

I understand

for trening slalom on which distance is placed cone/skittle?

It took me about 6 months to get good at it. I learned out to drive stick when I was 15, but didn't do much with it until after my car was converted to 5spd (4 years ago). First I mastered not stalling with the ltw flywheel :stickoutt then I moved on to heel-toe. It helped me to practice my foot placement and required throttle pressure while stopped first.

I never thought people could actually do the "traditional" heel-toe method. Its amazingly hard for me to do (I wear size 13 shoes). The roll-off method works great for me. I practice constantly and I've been pretty good at it for the past few months. The only time I don't do it is when I'm driving with the girlfriend on a date or its late at night.

try doing it barefoot or with really thin shoes. Big clunky shoes are harder to do it.

try putting your heel at the base of the gas pedal and twisting your leg (at the knee) to put the ball of your foot on the brake. Then it is easier to roll your foot to blip the throttle. But, it will likely hurt your knee for a while.
bruce

this is my problem. I am try several times this roll variante and allways when pick gas I litle release break pedal. ufffff, I need practice:buttrock

Hey,
I learned it pretty quickly.

The main thing with driving a car is, the more you understand how it works, the easier it is to operate.

Therefore, you need to know why you are heel/toeing, and what is occuring to be good at it.

If you are just driving, cruising in say 5th gear at 4 thousand RPM's, without using the brakes or gas, just put it into third. You will see the RPM's jump, and you will feel the car jolt. This is happening because the lower gear requires more RPM's to be equivalent to the same speed in a higher gear. By matching revs, you are using the engine as a brake, but also making a smoother transition between your drivetrain (especially your clutch).

I first discovered this on my own with altered, less efficient way of heel/toeing. When I would anticipate a down-shift, I would blip the throttle and down-shift to match revs, then brake. It is a good way to learn how to match revs, without throwing in the braking, which is the tricky part to learn at first to get it to match perfectly.


When you do get to using both pedals at once, position your right foot on the right side of the brake, and left side of the gas pedal. Initiate your braking before doing so with the gas pedal. Once you are digging in with your brakes, you roll your foot over onto the gas pedal. It will take time to get it perfectly, most commonly people dont give it ENOUGH gas when they do it, so dont be shy to hit that pedal hard.

Once you get it will do it everyday and you will love it, but just give it time and it will come to you.

Have fun, drive safe ;)

The pedals in the toyota that I used to drive was impossible for me to heel-toe. So instead I did it reversed so I braked with my heel and blipped with my toe.

It wastes time and effort? And I guess it makes you look cool.

Double clutching is only worthwhile if you've got a bad synchro or you're trying to take care of a dog-ring box. Otherwise, a simple blip will do.

Or a Nissan/Honda gearbox that's bitchy when cold.


All my Japanese cars have been a pain to keep the gearbox happy while cold, so I've just gotten used to double clutching over the years. I don't bother on the M3 most of the time since the box is much happier at a wide range of temps with the lighter ATF. The Nisssan uses 75W-90 GL4 lube - it's like syrup when it's close to freezing outside!

Oh, as far as heel/toeing - I find it's much easier to do when driving spiritedly as well. I've gotten used to doing it in all conditions, but I was always better on the track than the street.

It wastes time and effort? And I guess it makes you look cool.

Double clutching is only worthwhile if you've got a bad synchro or you're trying to take care of a dog-ring box. Otherwise, a simple blip will do.

Bryan, you also forgot that it is very useful while driving a big-rig.:noel

Shit, i'm still practicing mine, i wear a 12 also and it's hard sometimes, but you gotta focus on it. I usually brake then lift my heel with my toes still on the brake, and kinda just slide my foot up the gas pedal, but if you do it that way, sometimes you don't rev it high enough..:rofl..:(.

Odakle si iz hrvatske? Samo moras praksati puno, i samo ce ti nadoci, nije lahko prvi ili drugi dan da znas ko profesionalac..:D

I wear a size 12 - E36 are retarded easy regardless of shoe size. As others have said, just roll your foot over to the side from the brake. That's how I heel/toe in all cars, and don't have problems except on the further spaced pedals.

Advantage to double clutching is that you will be able to drive a Vintage car!!!!!!!!!! I personally feel that it also causes less wear on the clutch/tranny over the life of the system. I have no Hard evidence to prove that, other than life experience in never having to change a clutch on a car after I replaced them when I bought them with dead clutches.

Some folks say it's a waste of extra time, but if done properly it takes no longer than a single clutch downshift.
+1

Done right, you do the work of the synchros so they don't have to, but also, the shifter slips into gear with much less effort.

As for the TIME it takes to double-clutch (a downshift), even though I can do it virtually just as fast as a single-clutch, its being done while BRAKING, so who cares if it takes more time?!!? The engine braking is nothing compared to full brake force application.

Of course, I don't double-clutch upshifts unless I happen to be babying a car with a bad synchro. That does translate into lost time.

Its funny, though, that I have to concentrate really hard now to NOT double-clutch a downshift!:)

The main thing with driving a car is, the more you understand how it works, the easier it is to operate.

Therefore, you need to know why you are heel/toeing, and what is occuring to be good at it.

+1 to that.

That understanding really helped me out when I was learning to double clutch. It feels great when it's done right and the shifter literally just slips into gear. Plus, every bit of work load lessened on the tranny helps, especially with the monstrous torque of the M42. :stickoutt

The term "heel-toe" is a misnomer I think. Who cares what it's called, it's basically braking and blipping the throttle with which ever part of the foot feels natural at the moment. Sometimes due to the position that my foot is on the brake pedal, I'll blip with my back heel or side of the foot or roll...being able to adapt your foot/blipping technique, I think should be the goal. Either way, the end product is all the same. :)

Seating position is quite important for to be able modulate the blip and maintain brake pedal pressure. OP might want to try a different arrangement.

Its funny, though, that I have to concentrate really hard now to NOT double-clutch a downshift!:)

Haha same here. It's second nature now. People think I drive "crazy" or "scary" when I do it because they're not used to proper (:shifty) downshifting technique.

I can't stand being in my friends car when they go around a corner, downshift then let out the clutch after the exit...that jolt...doesn't feel good. :nono

What I did to initially start was just to match all my downshifts on the street with throttle blips. When you master that start to heel toe on the street for regular downshifts and when you are driving around

Adapt this to the track and you are rolling :)

It only took a couple track sessions to get the mechanics of it programed into my head/feet/hand, then maybe a couple more hours to smoothe it out. I started to practice it in the shifter kart when i was 12 and when I moved into Formula cars and GT cars it was easy.
Heel toe does not actually refer to the "heel" imo, i don't know many drivers that actually use the heel. You just blip with a rock to the outside. You set the car up with the throttle and brake close together for a reason! You must have the brake pedal even with the throttle at threshhold braking though, thats why its difficult with a street car.
I dont use the clutch very often on upshifts, most of the time clutched up-shifts are lost time. There are a couple of cars that i can rev match and clutchless downshift as well, thats what took a long tim to learn, thats a whole different ball of wax though.

In case it isn't obvious, a double de-clutch down shift is:

1) On the brakes
2) Clutch pedal down
3) Transmission to neutral
4) Clutch pedal up
5) Throttle blip
6) Clutch pedal down
7) Gear selected
8) Clutch pedal up

I didn't hear about the heel-toe technique until tonight fishing around. I get it in my mind, but I don't get the point of double de-clutching. Steps 3&4? Why shift into N, are you just rolling? Why stop midshift just to release the clutch into N? Why not just go right into selecting the -1 gear, gas, THEN release clutch? (I'm prepared for people to start yelling at me, but I don't care, I want to know!)

I've gotten so good at it, that I can heel-toe barefoot, in sandals, and in high heels. :rofl

I've gotten so good at it, that I can heel-toe barefoot, in sandals, and in high heels. :rofl

lol, I think you're the only one on here that can say that.

Shit, i'm still practicing mine, i wear a 12 also and it's hard sometimes, but you gotta focus on it. I usually brake then lift my heel with my toes still on the brake, and kinda just slide my foot up the gas pedal, but if you do it that way, sometimes you don't rev it high enough..:rofl..:(.

Odakle si iz hrvatske? Samo moras praksati puno, i samo ce ti nadoci, nije lahko prvi ili drugi dan da znas ko profesionalac..:D
iz zagreba.:buttrock kaj si ti nas iseljenik?

lol, I think you're the only one on here that can say that.
I sure hope so. :eyecrazy

I've gotten so good at it, that I can heel-toe barefoot, in sandals, and in high heels. :rofl

thats hot lol

iz zagreba.:buttrock kaj si ti nas iseljenik?

ja sam iz bosne, zivim ovamo vec 7-8 godina. Imam rodbine u zagrebu, na kupenickom kraljevcu, i bio sam tamo nekoliko puta :buttrock

I've gotten so good at it, that I can heel-toe barefoot, in sandals, and in high heels. :rofl

Can i take you on a date if i come to cali? But you have to promis you won't get mad when u heel-toes with high heels and i get a boner? j/k :stickoutt:shifty.
We need more womenz like j00. :alright

It took me a day to get comfortable with it, after that it becomes second nature. Practise Practise Practise. It's so sweet going down through the gears bliping when coming to a redlight. Yes, I practised on the streets too!

You just have to get used to it. It's pretty awkward at first. I personally prefer the roll technique. After a day or so you'll get used to it.

I can do this no problem in the e30 on the track and street. but I cannot for the life of me physically do it in the e34 as the gas pedal is no where within my reach as I get on the brakes, and by the time my heal finds the gas it takes all day to rev the engine up due to the heavy flywheel.

so what you drive makes a difference

FWIW, in the skip barber book "Going Faster" they say this about the origin of the phrase:
This downshifting method is called "heel-and-toeing," although, as we've just described it, it doesn't involve your heel or your toe. The phrase was coined more than forty years ago, when many racecars had the pedals arranged so that the brake pedal was on the right, the clutch pedal on the left, and the throttle was between them and about six inches lower. Under braking, the driver had the ball of his right foot on the right-hand pedal and when the "blip" was needed, pushed down on the throttle with his heel -- hence, heel-and-toe. Pedal arrangement has changed but the term lingers on.

I don´t remember, but few weeks I think. First attempts were ridiculously bad.

I just sold my 04 911 GT3 to go with a dedicated track car. The GT3 took some work to get the heel/toe down. I'm hoping the 1988 E30 (fully prepped track/race car) I'm picking up this weekend at Road Atlanta will be easier to learn.

I tried to include a web address for a youtube video of an excellent heel toe demo but since I'm a newbie, this forum wouldn't allow it.

I just sold my 04 911 GT3 to go with a dedicated track car. The GT3 took some work to get the heel/toe down. I'm hoping the 1988 E30 (fully prepped track/race car) I'm picking up this weekend at Road Atlanta will be easier to learn.

I tried to include a web address for a youtube video of an excellent heel toe demo but since I'm a newbie, this forum wouldn't allow it.
Just exclude the http:// part of the link. We can figure out that part. ;)

Here ya go:

youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA