Temporarily sidetracked on our CM winter project - trying to get a car out for Winterfest. To be fair, it does take a little more than a week to build the car... Here is the background over the last 2 months, in which we received the donor car, stripped and fabricated, and put together a lof of the sub-assemblies.

Donor rolls in!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/donor2.jpg

The fun (and dirty part) - the guys that don't have to put it back together strip it down :)
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Stripping1.JPG

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Stripping2.JPG

Engine prep
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Engine1copy.jpg

A few of the basic cage construction
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Cage1copy.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Cage2copy.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Cage3copy.jpg

Off to paint
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/goodbyetopaint.jpg

And back!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/freshpaint.jpg

Amazing - all in the span of one post! Now it gets a little more real-world. The shell rolled in Friday PM, we started work on it a little later today. The progress now is assembly as we go.

The wheels on your projects always amaze me. Any more finalized cage pics?

Seems like it goes a little slow at first. Lots of cleaning to do from paint, and we still have some underbody/fenderwell painting to wrap up. The wiring harness is of course a little bit of a mess, but you get a way better paintjob if you pull it all out. Lots of details, then we will actually look like we are making progress when the big stuff starts going in - I hope!

Fresh from paint
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/fronts1.jpg

Some parts added, wiring lightly laid in through firewall
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/fronts2.jpg

Wiring running across the front. This roughly finishes the front part of the chassis harness layout
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/frontwiring.jpg

Fusebox back in its home
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/underhood_fusebox.jpg

And the view from the other side of the firewall - not as neat...
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/wiringnest.jpg

Some components mounted including radiator
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/frontwrad.jpg

And F corner suspension installed. Still needs to be blacked out (ok, we forgot...). Starting to work on brake fitment.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/lfcorner.jpg

A little bit of work in the back of the car - diff cooler on the way in
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/diffcooler.jpg

And LR corner suspension installed
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/lrcorner.jpg

And since I am the last one working, that is it for the day.

The wheels on your projects always amaze me.

Thanks?

We like to rock the staggered diameter to accentuate the rear drop. We will get the hydraulics hooked back up and shoot for a BMW height record.

I love the paint job, very cool project here:buttrock

Is this beast getting the new PFC treatment?

Is this beast getting the new PFC treatment?

Looks like it from the pic above.

The cage looks very well done. :)

Having just gutted my interior, this is really cool to see how you guys go about building a race car...thanks for the posts.

well im glad you've all "accomplished" more in one day than I have thus far with my car.
You win this round...

very nice as always James....keep up w/ the pics :)

very cool. i was thinking that looked like PFCs direct drive rotor

Thanks for the comments guys.

I love the paint job, very cool project here:buttrock

When the vinyl is applied, it will really come into its own:) We went with white white, not Alpine or a BMW color and it makes the other white cars in the shop look dirty. Pretty wild how non-white most whites are.

well im glad you've all "accomplished" more in one day than I have thus far with my car.
You win this round...

Well certainly a long way from the car I built in my parent's garage when I started. Of course I am npt really able to take credit - I am better at punching keys these days than turning wrenches unless trapped like a rat and beaten to an inch of my life.

very cool. i was thinking that looked like PFCs direct drive rotor
You can tell the difference - race rotors typically have the small slots (too loud for street use). These are actually not the new PFC line - they are the ZR-33 2 piece with the full motorsport alloy. Still waiting on my first set of the Z Rated kits.

Awesome build guys!

Thanks for sharing James!
-Ted

It still HURTS ME.....to see a nice car gutted though......:confused


Hopefully, this ended it's pain and suffering..

It still HURTS ME.....to see a nice car gutted though......:confused

That was the cheapest car I could find. Trust me, all its untouched friends will be jealous.

That was the cheapest car I could find. Trust me, all its untouched friends will be jealous.

Who's car is it, Bill H.?

Carlos.

Who's car is it, Bill H.?

I meant the car's friends. His name is Klaus.

Klaus H.? Little German guy?

James, is this the car we can plan on seeing at some west coast races next year? Just making some mental notes.....:stickoutt

Klaus - little German car.

James, is this the car we can plan on seeing at some west coast races next year? Just making some mental notes.....:stickoutt

No unfortunately. Not sure if I will have an IP car to bring along...

No unfortunately. Not sure if I will have an IP car to bring along...


You better get on the j-o-b and get one out here!

You better get on the j-o-b and get one out here!

What happened to all that "I am your IP car" talk? Tell you what - I will bring an IP engine and we can do an engine swap on something :)

And LR corner suspension installed
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/lrcorner.jpg


James,

What are you using at the top of the rear spring to retain it? Looks like some kind of conical plastic seat in your pic. I ask because retaining short rear springs at full droop is a problem to which a clean solution would be welcome.

And, out of curiosity, whose height adjuster is that under the spring?

Neil

Not sure if I will have an IP car to bring along...

Oh, c'mon... There's always room for one more. ;)

Thats all Ground Control stuff. The white piece is delrin that slips on over the factory nub.

James,

What are you using at the top of the rear spring to retain it? Looks like some kind of conical plastic seat in your pic. I ask because retaining short rear springs at full droop is a problem to which a clean solution would be welcome.

And, out of curiosity, whose height adjuster is that under the spring?

Neil

Neil - that's a Ground Control derlin spring hat. It slips on the factory nub and holds the spring in place. They are pretty inexpensive from GC.

What happened to all that "I am your IP car" talk? Tell you what - I will bring an IP engine and we can do an engine swap on something :)


LOL, just because "I am your IP Car" does not mean I don't want you to send a car our way to go up against!

If you're going to bring an IP engine, my wife HAS been complaining about a lack of power in her 528 wagon...:)

On topic....need to copy that diff cooler setup on this build.....

Oh, c'mon... There's always room for one more. ;)


Sweet - Jonathan just offered to drive a second rig!

LOL, just because "I am your IP Car" does not mean I don't want you to send a car our way to go up against!

On topic....need to copy that diff cooler setup on this build.....

OK, so if we are now competing again, I am back to trash talking. Dave wants a crack in JP trim first, we can add 0.4L if needed :)

It sells for the sum of the parts - not a premium because we know which ones to use...

Diff Cooler (http://store.bimmerworld.com/Product339)

We went with white white, not Alpine or a BMW color and it makes the other white cars in the shop look dirty. Pretty wild how non-white most whites are.


Great thread! I love these!

I used Toyota Super White on my car, and you are so right! It makes just about any other white in the marketplace look dirty in comparison.

Watching the progress! Good luck!

Yeah, I thought the price was high on that kit. So I started to find all the individual parts. When my total got close to yours and I still had some things to order, I gave up.

Not to start a cage fight, but I hope some folks take notice of the dash bar height in that car. That's where it is SUPPOSED to be, not right on top of the driver's knees.

And, out of curiosity, whose height adjuster is that under the spring?


Looks like the GC articulating weight jacker thingie. FWIW I have that delrin piece along with a regular GC height adjuster and even so my springs every once in a while make a nice "sproing!" clunk enough that the whole paddock looks over at my car when it does it. :paranoid:

I'm going to give the Vorshlag ones a try next, if those don't stop the mega clunk then perhaps those articulating weight jackers.

Carlos.

Sweet - Jonathan just offered to drive a second rig!

Nice!!! James just offered to pay for my airfare out there AND is going to let me drive their 2nd rig out to CA. I'm down!

Not to start a cage fight, but I hope some folks take notice of the dash bar height in that car. That's where it is SUPPOSED to be, not right on top of the driver's knees.

+1

Pretty basic cage and with far away pics nobody can sit there and criticize it. That Clay guy is a smart fella. :stickoutt

Carlos.

For lunch:

Diff cooler coming along, wiring now reaches the back!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/diffcooler2.JPG

Oil cooler now in place as well
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/oilcooler.JPG

Getting ready to put in some more major stuff
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/enginetodrop.JPG

Not to start a cage fight, but I hope some folks take notice of the dash bar height in that car. That's where it is SUPPOSED to be, not right on top of the driver's knees.

I am too tall to deal with getting in and out of the knee-breakers. Maybe that is what started us on that path.

Nice!!! James just offered to pay for my airfare out there AND is going to let me drive their 2nd rig out to CA. I'm down!

Any time you want me to "let" you haul our crap about 6000 miles, feel free to call. Plane ticket included.

Pretty basic cage and with far away pics nobody can sit there and criticize it. That Clay guy is a smart fella. :stickoutt

This isn't my first rodeo. We do cages the way we want to, which doesn't always appeal to the huge percentage of engineers here.

Any time you want me to "let" you haul our crap about 6000 miles, feel free to call. Plane ticket included.


Second offer to drive rig especially if there is room for my hooptie in the back. ;)

Sorry to jump in and take this a little off topic. But before more people say take my car as well I think I can offer an alternative means of transport. If James does not want to pay for a second rig to go to Cali:eyecrazy then his and anybody else's extra gear could go this way.

I have a friend who has a line on a deal to get cars moved coast to coast for around $800 each way. Enclosed transport. PM me if you want more info.

I honestly don't want to bring 2 cross-country. $800 enclosed is an awesome deal! In fact, email me on that if you would, nice to have that info.

Thanks for the info, James and others.

Looks like the GC articulating weight jacker thingie. FWIW I have that delrin piece along with a regular GC height adjuster and even so my springs every once in a while make a nice "sproing!" clunk enough that the whole paddock looks over at my car when it does it. :paranoid:

I'm going to give the Vorshlag ones a try next, if those don't stop the mega clunk then perhaps those articulating weight jackers.

Carlos.

Hijacking the thread just slightly, I'm using the new-style H&R rear height adjusters that have a large diameter lower threaded body with nut to attach them firmly to the upper control arm. On the plus side they don't move around and can be height adjusted with an Allen key from below without taking the wheel off. On the other hand the range of adjustment isn't all that generous, so you need to choose the spring length carefully.

Neil

The Ground Control articulating weight jackers are very nice. They move with the spring in it's arc and are easy to adjust from under the car. I'm not sure what the range of adjustment is but I'd guess at least 3/4". I use 5" springs and have no problem with them not staying in place at full droop.

Jay

Thanks for the info, James and others.



Hijacking the thread just slightly, I'm using the new-style H&R rear height adjusters that have a large diameter lower threaded body with nut to attach them firmly to the upper control arm. On the plus side they don't move around and can be height adjusted with an Allen key from below without taking the wheel off. On the other hand the range of adjustment isn't all that generous, so you need to choose the spring length carefully.

Neil

+1

That Clay guy is a fart smella.



So they say.

So they say.

BS! Must be behind my back.

One final installment today after this. Busy day!

In mockup stage (different car - thread jacking my own post!) - new F splitter. The new Carbon Race Wing makes so much downforce even when planed out that we are looking for a better front solution over the winter.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/splitter1.JPG

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/splitter2.JPG

Finally - we got the touch up painting done
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/lrpainted.JPG

Rear - diff cooler done and battery in temporarily
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/p1080022.jpg

Good stuff under the hood - brakes in
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/brakesin.jpg

And the bigger chunk of candy
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/enginein!.JPG

Dash wiring almost wrapped up
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/dashwiring.JPG

And dash cover installed
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/dashinstalled.JPG

Rear - diff cooler done and battery in temporarily
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/p1080022.jpg




James - how is the diff cooler plumbed into the diff cover? Can you post a shot of the diff cover with the cooler lines? I'm thinking about buying the cooler setup from you guys but I want to understand how the plumbing works how fluid changes are facilitated with the lines in place.

Thanks.

The diff cooler uses the drain and fill areas of the diff. There is no filter on the system if you really blow up a diff big, but I haven't had the issue (thanks Dan!). This could be added if you wanted to.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/diffcooler_under.JPG

Seat goes in
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/seatinstalled.JPG

hmmmm. new splitter. interesting.

looks good man. i like the diff cooler placement.

Rear - diff cooler done and battery in temporarily
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/p1080022.jpg


So where in the Rules are we allowed to Run a diff cooler in Prepared. I see modified covers legal, but doesn't say you can add a diff cooler anyplace.

So where in the Rules are we allowed to Run a diff cooler in Prepared. I see modified covers legal, but doesn't say you can add a diff cooler anyplace.

Stock Class engine rule "L" seems to cover it.
L. Engine, transmission, and differential oil coolers are free. Coolers must meet the following specific installation requirements:
1. All coolers mounted below the factory water radiator must be protected from debris intrusion with steel screening.
2. All non-factory coolers shall be isolation mounted to eliminate stress cracking.
3. Additional, non-stock parts necessary to install oil coolers are permitted. Parts to attach engine oil coolers are limited to those which essentially maintain stock oil filter configurations.

However, I guess there may be some gray area about the diff oil PUMP. The cooler is free, and lines and fittings necessary to install the cooler are free. But is the pump "necessary?

Looks great by the way James!!

Stock Class engine rule "L" seems to cover it.
L. Engine, transmission, and differential oil coolers are free. Coolers must meet the following specific installation requirements:
1. All coolers mounted below the factory water radiator must be protected from debris intrusion with steel screening.
2. All non-factory coolers shall be isolation mounted to eliminate stress cracking.
3. Additional, non-stock parts necessary to install oil coolers are permitted. Parts to attach engine oil coolers are limited to those which essentially maintain stock oil filter configurations.

However, I guess there may be some gray area about the diff oil PUMP. The cooler is free, and lines and fittings necessary to install the cooler are free. But is the pump "necessary?

Looks great by the way James!!

I have always seen the cooler at the whole deal:
Diff Cooler - check out title (http://store.bimmerworld.com/Product339)

The cooler is the whole deal - the heat exchanger is the finned part. No way you can reasonably run a trans or diff cooler without something to move the fluid. I guess you could install a showpiece but you need a pump to make it functional. Doh - the rules didn't state "functional"! :D

Thanks Jon. I knew it was somewhere, but you always second-guess yourself...

Seat goes in
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/seatinstalled.JPG

Shoot I'm gonna have to take back my comment about posting closeup pictures of cages. :stickoutt With these extra pics there are 3 things I noticed that may be a problem if it gets a thorough inspection.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Shoot I'm gonna have to take back my comment about posting closeup pictures of cages. :stickoutt With these extra pics there are 3 things I noticed that may be a problem if it gets a thorough inspection. One is clear up here, you're not allowed to notch the body of the car to accomodate cage tubes. Two the stock steering column support has been removed (the rusty piece of metal visible in everyone's cars during build threads) and three you're not really allowed to compensate by adding another attachment point making it a 9-pt cage. Sorry to bear bad news but the one may be obvious during its annual tech, the other probably not so much with the dash in place but with those pics it's pretty clear. Don't mean to spoil such a nice build thread but people get ideas from these threads.


Cheers,
Carlos.

The rule of thumb I have always seen tech operated under is safety first. Door bars that are shaped like an S and ready to collapse are cool if the hoop is set back, but do one with a proper load path taking care not to add an attachment point and it isn't? Would be a shame it seems.

Same with a dash bar - make it break knees and we are all happy with that, but mount one at a proper height where a mounting tab is located and redo the mounting tab (supporting a rubber isolated, fully non-structural steering column) and there are problems?

Interesting start of discussion about the new NASA GTS-3 car we are building.

Great Build James.

Any insight on Acid dipping a chassis? I have looked into it and there is the concern of the acid pocketing inside and eating through afterwards but other than that it seems good.

I know you guys have build 43 or so cars and was wondering if you have ever done or considered doing it.

This kind of deals with this thread...since you are building a car, I figure if you had 8 days instead of 7 you might have done this.

thanks

Josh

Will be dipping our CM project. THey dip it in a neutralizer - fully submerged. I would be surprised if you could have a pocket of acid. You have pockets that aren't painted though - Wurth makes a spray way you can blow in it or there are some other solutions I think.

Ah, interesting. I was reading about it online and I guess some places will dip in a primer as well. There is conveniently a place about 30 minutes that does it from me, but I think they want 12-1400 hundred bucks to dip it, so We will see about that. Any guess as to how much reduction in weight is achieved?

I am getting a tank of liquid nitrogen soon to deal with undercoating and whatever else makes me mad. That seems more practical than the dipping for me.

What weight are you shooting for in this IP car? Also, what would you anticipate for both an E36, and E46 M3 in weight?

Thanks

What Subframe and Motor mounts do you suggest for a a club racing car? My car will be a full-duty track car, but Im not sure if the all aluminum one is best? Ive been searching on your site trying to make the best decision for my application.

thanks

The rule of thumb I have always seen tech operated under is safety first. Door bars that are shaped like an S and ready to collapse are cool if the hoop is set back, but do one with a proper load path taking care not to add an attachment point and it isn't? Would be a shame it seems.

Same with a dash bar - make it break knees and we are all happy with that, but mount one at a proper height where a mounting tab is located and redo the mounting tab (supporting a rubber isolated, fully non-structural steering column) and there are problems?

Interesting start of discussion about the new NASA GTS-3 car we are building.

Sorry bro, I'm not teching anymore so I'm not going to be inspecting any cars so like I said perhaps nobody will ever notice. Still the rules are there agree or not. A simple cage like this one should be able to pass the rules w/o having to do things that aren't allowed, some small changes could remedy that. A small angle change here, a bar slightly moved there not knee busting or altering the load paths. I wasn't trying to piss on the thread but when people post pictures of stuff that isn't compliant then you should expect comments on it. Heck I posted my design up for comments, when the cage gets built I can post pics. If people find something illegal about it well then so be it but that'll be my goal not to do anything outside the rules (NASA or BMW CR).

Cheers,
Carlos.

A bit offtopic question, is it possible to remove the fuse box without having to disconnect the harness from within the car?

Ah, interesting. I was reading about it online and I guess some places will dip in a primer as well. There is conveniently a place about 30 minutes that does it from me, but I think they want 12-1400 hundred bucks to dip it, so We will see about that. Any guess as to how much reduction in weight is achieved?

What weight are you shooting for in this IP car? Also, what would you anticipate for both an E36, and E46 M3 in weight?

What Subframe and Motor mounts do you suggest for a a club racing car? My car will be a full-duty track car, but Im not sure if the all aluminum one is best? Ive been searching on your site trying to make the best decision for my application.


Seems like a typical price. Our place told me that the bake (stage 1) was what got everything off, then they acid dip to clean it up - or neutralize rust. You don't have to do the acid. The RRT guys said the weight loss was pretty good on their CM - ping them for an exact.

IP car weight - no idea - we will see :) Subframe and engine mounts - full aluminum. Reinforce the front subframe (always needed) and the rear (because it is a good precaution and easy now - non-M cars only) and you will never have any issues with them.

Hey,

Yeah, I will be skipping out on the dipping then, I can find more use with that money in other areas.

I have an M-car so the rear is good, front and sway bar reinforcements are being welded in tomorrow at work :)

Great, I will add your Mounts to the list then!

man, you guys work fast! it would take me a month to do what you have done in a few days. i really like the look of a racecar with white interior - plain, simple, clean, and business like.

quick plug for bimmerworld and James.....I ordered the powerflex subframe bushings by mistake, and he emailed me on Sunday to clarify my order for the aluminum bushings, which is what I really wanted. Great customer service :thumbup:

Sorry bro, I'm not teching anymore so I'm not going to be inspecting any cars so like I said perhaps nobody will ever notice.

Right - just don't tell anyone else Smokey :D

Still the rules are there agree or not. A simple cage like this one should be able to pass the rules w/o having to do things that aren't allowed, some small changes could remedy that.

Honestly, we could have set the bar next to the offending piece and whanged it with a hammer a few times, which is the more common method that seems perfectly OK. I can sleep tonight and if there is an issue at tech then we are lucky that metal can be cut, welded, and painted.

Shoot I'm gonna have to take back my comment about posting closeup pictures of cages. :stickoutt With these extra pics there are 3 things I noticed that may be a problem if it gets a thorough inspection.

Cheers,
Carlos.

I think I saw the same 3 items. Oh well - something for someone to protest, if this car beats them. :) Nothing "performance" enhancing (I don't think) - but . . . .

Honestly, we could have set the bar next to the offending piece and whanged it with a hammer a few times, which is the more common method that seems perfectly OK.

Actually, the rules also state that that's not ok either. The only place the metal can be "deformed" is outlined in cage rule 14 c.

No deformation of the interior body panels is permitted, except that the horizontal part of the sheet metal between the top of the “B” pillar and the top of the “A” pillar (next to the driver’s and/or passenger’s head), may be pushed in to accommodate the roll cage. The intent of this allowed deformation is strictly to allow for more headroom for the driver.

So many rules!!! :eyecrazy:eyecrazy

Man, the dash bar in my E46 is going to be tricky since it goes all the way across the dash.

Stock Class engine rule "L" seems to cover it.
L. Engine, transmission, and differential oil coolers are free. Coolers must meet the following specific installation requirements:
1. All coolers mounted below the factory water radiator must be protected from debris intrusion with steel screening.
2. All non-factory coolers shall be isolation mounted to eliminate stress cracking.
3. Additional, non-stock parts necessary to install oil coolers are permitted. Parts to attach engine oil coolers are limited to those which essentially maintain stock oil filter configurations.

However, I guess there may be some gray area about the diff oil PUMP. The cooler is free, and lines and fittings necessary to install the cooler are free. But is the pump "necessary?

Looks great by the way James!!


Right cause putting Diff coolers makes sense in the ENGINE section of the rules. I guess I missed that because it AINT where it should be!

Right cause putting Diff coolers makes sense in the ENGINE section of the rules. I guess I missed that because it AINT where it should be!

LOL - we don't do everything right on the Rules Committee - just most things!! :)

How is the steering column any more of a chassis atttachment point than a seat back brace? Sorry, don't see it.

How is the steering column any more of a chassis atttachment point than a seat back brace? Sorry, don't see it.

Devi's advocate here (since I would support a rule change and allow steering colums to be attached to the cage if my Pacific Region racers wanted that) - but I would say that the difference is that one is specifically stated as legal (seat back brace) and one is not mentioned (steering column attachment) and therefore not compliant.

Right cause putting Diff coolers makes sense in the ENGINE section of the rules. I guess I missed that because it AINT where it should be!

Search function comes in handy for such things.

I don't remember seeing whistles and radar guns in the rules either, but that's right, Carlos has been relieved :)

Maybe professional car builders have a better feel or interpretation of the rules, utilizing years of hands on experience and what they've seen on the track. The internet, buddies and a check book aren't necessarily qualifications for making proper judgements.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

I don't remember seeing whistles and radar guns in the rules either, but that's right, Carlos has been relieved :)

Maybe professional car builders have a better feel or interpretation of the rules, utilizing years of hands on experience and what they've seen on the track. The internet, buddies and a check book aren't necessarily qualifications for making proper judgements.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

Mr. Posig
No offense to Mr. Clay or any of our other fine supporting vendors, but I don't see how owning a shop, and having built a more tan few cars improves one's reading comprehension. It certainly should result in reasonable judgement and an idea of what one is likely to get away with.

And just because you've seen something on track, doesn't make it anymore legal.

Mr. Clay,
Thanks for continuing to post your builds and foster discussion regardless of the risks of crticism.

Seems like a typical price. Our place told me that the bake (stage 1) was what got everything off, then they acid dip to clean it up - or neutralize rust. You don't have to do the acid. The RRT guys said the weight loss was pretty good on their CM - ping them for an exact.

IP car weight - no idea - we will see :) Subframe and engine mounts - full aluminum. Reinforce the front subframe (always needed) and the rear (because it is a good precaution and easy now - non-M cars only) and you will never have any issues with them.


The bare shell weighed 620 lbs with seam sealer, sound deadening, and undercoating. It weighed 560 lbs after baking. Pretty significant. Biggest thing is fabrication, it is 100 times easier and the welds are much much better.

Barry

I don't remember seeing whistles and radar guns in the rules either, but that's right, Carlos has been relieved :)

Maybe professional car builders have a better feel or interpretation of the rules, utilizing years of hands on experience and what they've seen on the track. The internet, buddies and a check book aren't necessarily qualifications for making proper judgements.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

I haven't been relieved, it is my choice not to volunteer for tech anymore (you do realize that this is a volunteer run program right?) that's not to say I won't be just switching roles to something else. So you could very well still incur the wrath of the whistle. :D (joking)

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree that shops should be above the rules based on their experience.

I don't know who that internet/buddy/checkbook comment was aimed at since I'm not a checkbook kind of guy but I'll agree that on this forum it is only about opinions and sharing ideas. However at the track at least my opinion wouldn't just be an opinion.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Maybe professional car builders have a better feel or interpretation of the rules, utilizing years of hands on experience and what they've seen on the track. The internet, buddies and a check book aren't necessarily qualifications for making proper judgements.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen professional car builders interpret a rule incorrectly (or maybe better put, illegally twist it into an advantage that it was not meant to create). What they've seen on track should be used only as experience for decision making when it comes to building a car to a given set of rules. Far as I know, the only "bulletproof" way of making proper judgements is the rules clarification process. Too often ego gets in the way.

We're all only human, and we're all trying to push the envelope.

Remember, James does not own this car. The ultimate responsibility is the car owner. If his customer asked for them to do it that way, then the customer will have to deal with it. Just a thought. Just playing devils advocate here.

Good/top shops should be held to a higher standard to uphold the rules however. Even if we do not agree with them, there are a half dozen shops that build the majority of Club cars, and if we cannot follow the rules book, then how can we expect anyone else to? I applaud Carlos for pointing out these issues. I see it all the time, people want to do things "because they saw them on the net" - not because they are right or legal.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I am not taking a position here. But if something is not legal, then a healthy discussion is warranted - it makes us all (the racers and builders) better at what we do.

James - I am excited to get this car and Scott Lang's together. Should be a fun race! Good job on the quick build. We did it with an HP car last year (documented in a thread on this site also) and it is chaos! kudos!

Thanks
brad

James - I am excited to get this car and Scott Lang's together.

I have a feeling there might be about a dozen or so other IP cars in this area that might like to play, too. :eyebrows

The bare shell weighed 620 lbs with seam sealer, sound deadening, and undercoating. It weighed 560 lbs after baking. Pretty significant. Biggest thing is fabrication, it is 100 times easier and the welds are much much better.

Barry

I feel like starting over now. :(

60lbs would almost make up for my extra cage work...

I love these kinds of threads. Subscribed. :D

The diff cooler uses the drain and fill areas of the diff. There is no filter on the system if you really blow up a diff big, but I haven't had the issue (thanks Dan!). This could be added if you wanted to.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/diffcooler_under.JPG




Thanks for posting the pic James.

How do you change the diff fluid with this setup?

How do you change the diff fluid with this setup?

Hmm, if they put a couple of ports on the fittings they could simply pump the lube in and out using the cooler circulating pump.

Neil

I have no issues with the discussion and like I mentioned before I can sleep at night. If you notice, I didn't edit my post quoting the "offenses" that were later removed (not at my request). I have thick skin - I promise.

I do think what we did makes sense and the car is not looking for any advantage by doing this. If you happen to see it you will understand - the driver has excellent side protection and is about 8" from the door bars. Like I said, it is metal and we know how to weld/paint/etc if needed :) Well actually, Bassen knows how to paint...

Thanks for posting the pic James.

How do you change the diff fluid with this setup?

Same as normal - drain and fill ports. You can pump out the cooler part if needed as well.

In no way was I inferring that the rules should be broken, actually quite the opposite. And I totally agree that car builders should be held to a higher standard, and I think all of us who do this for a living aspire to that end.

Keep in practice with the whistle Carlos, maybe you'll come back :)

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

I have no issues with the discussion and like I mentioned before I can sleep at night. If you notice, I didn't edit my post quoting the "offenses" that were later removed (not at my request). I have thick skin - I promise.


I edited that, I didn't think I needed to point out specific things but oh well. I prefer short replies anyway.

Hey I appreciate that you guys share your builds with us it's nice to come here and take a break and look at pictures of nice builds. So thanks for doing that.

Carlos.

I edited that, I didn't think I needed to point out specific things but oh well. I prefer short replies anyway.

Hey I appreciate that you guys share your builds with us it's nice to come here and take a break and look at pictures of nice builds. So thanks for doing that.

Carlos.
+1

I always learn something from watching how the BWs and Evosports of the world put together a car. Plus, in the off-season it's damn hard to feed the beast ... nice weather here the last day or two has been a good distraction, but 6 months with no track means I live on these threads!

-tammer

Today's installment - starting to look like a car now! Not making any sounds on it's own yet, but the guys decided (not were forced!) to work late and it may later.

Front brakes on
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/brakes.jpg

Engine bay progress - not there, but getting there
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/engineheaders.JPG

Fire bottle fully done
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/firesysdone.JPG

Passenger's side of the dash
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/rdash.jpg

Right side net in position
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/rsnet.jpg

One piece missing here - I can't keep up on these things yet!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/wingmounts.JPG

If you have an aluminum radiator, this is a nice little trick. No more dislodging the radiator on an off-track excursion due to the dopey plastic retaining clips.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/radtrick.jpg

Nice.

Can the driver reach that main power switch, or is that the corner worker one?

What have you been using to keep the shoulder harness straps from moving laterally on the crossbar?

Passenger's side of the dash
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/rdash.jpg


Do you sell that panel?

Do you sell that panel?

Buy 2 while you're at it.

Its just thin flat carbon...I mean yes - $80!

If you have an aluminum radiator, this is a nice little trick. No more dislodging the radiator on an off-track excursion due to the dopey plastic retaining clips.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/radtrick.jpg

i've just been using safety wire but hey thats not bad.

lookin great guys

Its just thin flat carbon...I mean yes - $80!

no wonder its called ballerworld


;)

Kidding. I think going rate is about 25-30/sqft for this stuff. I can do the rough cut for you.

Well if your not gonna use this car the whole year I need a race car a new toy! Lookin good though.

Makes me want to build another one.

Makes me want to build another one.

you obviously have too much time and money on your hands.

you obviously have too much time and money on your hands.

I have plenty of time, and I used to have plenty of $ before Dr. Clay got me into therapy.

I have plenty of time, and I used to have plenty of $ before Dr. Clay got me into therapy.

what is that saying again: "Show me a billionaire and after racing I show you a millionaire," or something like that.
Damn "sport" is addictive.

Do you sell that panel?

LOL. Just emailed him...I need it too. You guys need to stfu...James understands supply and demand....price is going up

what is that saying again: "Show me a billionaire and after racing I show you a millionaire," or something like that.
Damn "sport" is addictive.

I believe it's, "The only way to make a small fortune in motor racing is to start with a large one."

LOL. Just emailed him...I need it too. You guys need to stfu...James understands supply and demand....price is going up

i'll sell mine for the right price :D

I believe it's, "The only way to make a small fortune in motor racing is to start with a large one."

Yup, that's it. My favorite $/racing quote is from Smokey Yunick:

'"Racing is taking a large pile of money and turning it into noise"

LOL. Just emailed him...I need it too. You guys need to stfu...James understands supply and demand....price is going up

Dave got our last one for $80. We are now forced to sell them for $100 due to the Airbus (at least that is the excuse I get everytime I order something in carbon...).

Email me, ask for a piece of thin 18"x5" carbon flat stock. Will do them for $45 for material plus cut. You will need to trim to fit your application - the dash can be flexed sometimes to fit cage configuration. Not that we would do that - I doubt it would be legal. :devillook

LOL - yea, I hear that about Carbon about every other day for the last year. Too funny!

Another:
"Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?"

James, the car's impressive, especially considering the time frame. Nice work!
Thanks for posting up cool little tricks like this, too...I like it!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/radtrick.jpg

Another:
"Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?"

Or in this case, shiny little trinkets...

i'll sell mine for the right price :D


Yours is already race proven, must be worth at least $140.

James, the car's impressive, especially considering the time frame. Nice work!
Thanks for posting up cool little tricks like this, too...I like it!
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/radtrick.jpg

Yup ... time to get out the AL welding wire :) Does that void the warranty on our PWR? ;)

Yours is already race proven, must be worth at least $140.

only if you autograph it :D

Now things go SLOW... Getting to the more detailed work and no big chunks to do. Here are a few updates.

Remote oil filter - gives us a little better filtration than stock.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/remotefilter.JPG

Bleeding out brakes - rear pictured.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/Rbrakebleed.JPG

And the Stack installed. Sequential shift light to be mounted in-dash as well.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/stackinstalled.JPG

I've always wanted one of those stack dash systems in my car, been lusting for years ..... how much are they now a days?

Peterson filter with VAC manifold is a great setup that I used on my former IP car. I have heard that the Stack MFD is the setup to get. Maybe JC can elaborate on this. On a side note, will DA systems also monitor gas level? With the CF plate, you lose your gas gauge. That is sure is a nice luxury.

I've always wanted one of those stack dash systems in my car, been lusting for years ..... how much are they now a days?

New pricing!! And new products. The new MFD (Multi Function Display) is $1895. You have to add pressure and temp sensors, includes internal 3-axis G. Recording for data as well as their predictive lap times is now a pin code upgrade.

Maybe JC can elaborate on this. On a side note, will DA systems also monitor gas level? With the CF plate, you lose your gas gauge.

Hmmm. Sensors are configurable in Stack and Motec at least, so I think it COULD be possible. Factory BMW sensors use resistance unlike the rest of the automotive world, so it is tricky. Motec is smart enough (and ECU integrated) to calculate fuel use through injector flow rate with pretty decent results.

Good answer - plan to add another gauge typically.

Have you guys considered the new Racepak IQ3 Dash/Datalogger? It looks pretty sharp.

Have you guys considered the new Racepak IQ3 Dash/Datalogger? It looks pretty sharp.

But has the same old software for now. They are working on it and it could be a sweet deal next year. For now, the higher end systems like Stack and Motec really show when you try to use the data - both in ease of use/flexibility and quality versus some other systems.

But has the same old software for now. They are working on it and it could be a sweet deal next year. For now, the higher end systems like Stack and Motec really show when you try to use the data - both in ease of use/flexibility and quality versus some other systems.

whats the run down on AIM's system?

whats the run down on AIM's system?

From me - pretty good system. I prefer the analog Stack tach rather than all of these Motec copies (which itself is only awesome due to its huge capability, not display). It is certainly flexible. Where it lacks in my experience is software and usability from the data side.

Time to wait on parts... Had the wrong AN line on the shelf and missing a fuel filter. Doesn't matter how organized you are I think - leaving some room for oversights and some red label shipping is always part of the deal.

Hopefully it goes vroom tomorrow. Decals on the way for tomorrow as well!

Where do you see Aims software lacking?

I tried the analog stack dash, but it required too much eye concentration. Its much easier to see colored lights, than read a dial...for me anyways. Its really is mostly driver preference as far as the displays go.

Motecs dash is nice, however there are so many alternatives now, its fairly outdated in terms of whats built into the dash.

There are many LCD color screens being used now as displays (and rearview mirrors lol), I think thats what everything is going to evolve into, as its 100% custom programmable. However you want it to display the information you need, it can and will.

I like the MXL dash the best for shift lights and layout, although these Bosch displays are pretty nice looking.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/img_productworlds/msd_equipment_displays_keyvis.jpg

Where do you see Aims software lacking?

While at Stack training @ PRI the main complaint the DATA specialists had with AIM was the inconsistent sampling rate. The MFD and MFR have a somewhat less impressive upper limit but they do it very consistently. The new stack systems have a far superior upgrade capability via the pin code. You simply pay to unlock what you need up to 45 channels the MFR also allows Wi-Fi download. They have an entirely new pro level platform coming out with which they are attempting to rival the very high end OE level test systems. You can go on and on but these new systems that are about to be released will be much more capable and something that anybody can grow with. The club level guy is now only limited in data by what he wants to upgrade too.

While at Stack training @ PRI the main complaint the DATA specialists had with AIM was the inconsistent sampling rate. The MFD and MFR have a somewhat less impressive upper limit but they do it very consistently. The new stack systems have a far superior upgrade capability via the pin code. You simply pay to unlock what you need up to 45 channels the MFR also allows Wi-Fi download. They have an entirely new pro level platform coming out with which they are attempting to rival the very high end OE level test systems. You can go on and on but these new systems that are about to be released will be much more capable and something that anybody can grow with. The club level guy is now only limited in data by what he wants to upgrade too.

"MFR"? Where can I find our more about the pro level platforms?

Problem with all these systems is not the system itself, its the person "trying" to use them :)

I get a good chuckle when i see guys at the track with $30k of Motec hardware/sensors, and they are using it to see how fast they went in a straight line lol

James,
Are you guys coming in on Wednesday?

Problem with all these systems is not the system itself, its the person "trying" to use them

Dead on. This is why we have Traqmate and other GPS systems. Datapro is pretty easy to work with. It has a good reputation for being user friendly.

"MFR"? Where can I find our more about the pro level platforms?

Your friendly neighborhood Bimmerworld of course.

Does this sound like an infomercial yet...:lol I promise I didn't put Scott up to that. I went down a few days before PRI and was educated on the new line. James and I are still looking into how exactly we implement these into a BMW so we don't have a really good tested configuration yet. It has more tools for us to use at a better price than the older systems. We just need to figure out how this new found freedom is best spent for the common budget levels.

Basically the line is aimed at two paths. The Multi Function Display (MFD) & the Multi Function Recorder (MFR). In our cars the MFD will be the piece to use. It's the Stack dash your used too but with all new guts and capabilities. More memory, better sampling, more channels, and everything is unlocked via a paid pin code. So you can buy the Base MFD, then pay to unlock the needed channels and features. This way if you want a simple system with the performance meter and predictive lap timer you get it. If you ever drive a car using the predictive timer and you have a little money for real data, you are probably buying a Stack in the near future. It's pretty much the best feature in the universe. You only pay for what you want really. The MFR is a standalone, aimed more towards formula cars maybe. It doesn't display but just records. It can however drive the alternate Stack displays and has a few cool alternate features like the Wi-Fi I mentioned. It has the same pin code unlock ability. We have the exact specs around if you contact us.

If you compare the specs these basically have the capability of the pro systems from just a year or so ago. The Pro system I mentioned are being aim at the more heavy hitter budget teams and developers.

And now the evil part - :devillook - They are supposed to be sending James and I a "master dongle" fairly soon. Don't laugh or I won't let you see it. Wait what... this isn't going well. It's basically a stick that I can plug into a stack users system...umm. The dongle unlocks all capabilities of the system for you to play with while the Stack Tech Agent is present and working with you. This way you can really see what you need and if an upgrade will be helpful. Nobody at the club level can do this. They have basically taken the attitude of 'lets dare them to not buy this stuff'.

...back to car build...

I like Stack's DVR system as well with the overlay.

They have news on that soon too... Not sure if I'm supposed to talk about that yet but what the hell. Key term with it is, "basically the same thing but affordable". Thank your Iphone for the delay in it's release.

Its a racecar! Almost.

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/wing.jpg

Paint scheme reminds me of that WCT car, I forget who it was.

Where are the clear corners at? Thats like 5hp!

Just wait until it is done - you will see...

Factory BMW sensors use resistance unlike the rest of the automotive world, so it is tricky.Resistance sensors can be converted to a "voltage" sensor by using a pull up or pull down resistor and developing a calibration curve. Sounds complicated, but it's pretty trivial for a basic EE/ME to do.

Yea, I had to do that with a couple sensors on my E36 with the aimsports.

Resistance sensors can be converted to a "voltage" sensor by using a pull up or pull down resistor and developing a calibration curve. Sounds complicated, but it's pretty trivial for a basic EE/ME to do.

I am not a real EE - I jut played one in school for 4 years :)

I am not a real EE - I jut played one in school for 4 years :)

There's a joke there...but i'm not going there. :stickoutt

I've always wanted one of those stack dash systems in my car, been lusting for years ..... how much are they now a days?

Comes free with the purchase of an Elise.

There's a joke there...but i'm not going there. :stickoutt

Steve, that would just be mean.

Before I take off for the weekend.

Stack TPS install
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/tpsinstall.JPG

Front body with panels hung
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/f34body.jpg

And the start of decals
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/f34decal.jpg

What is that aluminum tank next to the jack stand in that last pick?
Too small to be fuel, but the opening is huge!

What is that aluminum tank next to the jack stand in that last pick?
Too small to be fuel, but the opening is huge!

Looks like the WC airbox. Does BW have any info or data to share on that part?

..

Looks like the WC airbox. Does BW have any info or data to share on that part?

..

Correct. Here you go:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/html/race-intake---e36.htm

And I thought MY car was a great example of the BW catalog...

:)
it appears you have some more work to do to catch up....
pic taken last year when i was installing.

Correct. Here you go:

http://www.bimmerworld.com/html/race-intake---e36.htm

Anyone have a dyno chart comparing gains over "other" intakes? Really you can
see 3-4 HP variation between pulls with no changes.

Vern - want to chime in :)

This is going great!

Thanks for the pics

Getting close. Dave worked this weekend to help out - HUGE! so hard to see progress when you get to the detailed stages. Waiting on a coolant pipe and windshield, but getting close!

Brake ducts installed - as tight as possible so we can get full lock to lock steering.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/brakeduct1.JPG

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/brakeduct2.JPG

Engine almost fully together
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/enginewithsensors.JPG

Front view. We always put mesh in the kidneys and front grill - one rock kicked up from a gravel trap can take out your radiator and destroy your day.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/fgrill.jpg

Sequential shift light.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/shiftlight.JPG

Center gauge panel - in carbon to match the rest of the dash inserts :)
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/switchpanel.JPG

Sweeet, it's sure coming together quickly! Keep the pics coming!
-Ted

Vern - want to chime in :)

Sorry, been away from the forums for a while, trying to make $$ to pay for my habit (racing that is.... I think). I dyno'd my IP car on 12/27/07 on a Mustang dyno, mainly to shake out the drivetrain and get some very baseline numbers. At first we were running it with just the MAF (nothing forward of it, no box or anything). After about 4 runs, making sure everything was good and warmed up, we got 276 rwhp. We decided to throw on the BW race intake/box and do a few more runs just to see what would happen. We immediately got 284 rwhp, with a better curve, and a few rough hitches in the curve smoothed out. We thought it was impossible, so we ran it again after a 5 min cooldown, and it was confirmed. As soon as we took the box off, it went down to mid-270's again. The box works.......... 8 rwhp increase. Fresh engine rebuild, AA headers, AA race exhaust, Sunbelts, etc... Pretty standard IP spec engine. That box ROCKS!!!!:buttrock

Holy crap, Vern. Your car is RUNNING?

j/k

Holy crap, Vern. Your car is RUNNING?

j/k

Amazingly, yes, it is running :D , and seemingly very well based on the dyno numbers. After a disasterous 2006 (cam timing, only did 2 race weekends) and 2007 (clutch failures, motor failures, etc - only completed one full race weekend) - I'm hoping 2008 will be a good year. I guess the good news is that I'm not burned out and I haven't wasted a lot of money on race tires recently!!! In 2007, the car was handling great, just lacked a good motor. Hopefully that was the last hurdle.

As further validation and confirmation, we are going to dyno it on a Dynojet next month, and I'm also going to run it again on the same Mustang dyno (it's local to where the car is, and I can get on it almost anytime). Another IP racer is also going to do the same thing with his M3, and we can use his numbers (he has a few more recent dyno tests) as another reference to make sure the dyno(s) are not wacky. He is also going to throw the BW race box on his car and see if he gets the same differences. But regardless of the absolute number (i.e. if the 284 is accurate), the 8 rwhp increase was real on my car. Nothing on the dyno was changed at all between runs with/without the race box, so it definitely adds some horses.......

Vern
I may actually be going racing this year!!!! :redspot:redspot

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, apologies... back to the task at hand - BW's IP car........

glad to see you back Vern.

Hey Vern, while I do not doubt the quality of BW's airbox that they're putting on this IP car, and in fact am considering one myself, it would be nice to know what improvement it made over another cold air intake, or even the stock airbox, instead of what improvement it made over and open-ended HFM with no intake at all. Do I have that part of your post understood correctly?

I beleive James only claims 3-4 hp increase, and I'm guessing that's over a stock airbox.

Hey Vern, while I do not doubt the quality of BW's airbox that they're putting on this IP car, and in fact am considering one myself, it would be nice to know what improvement it made over another cold air intake, or even the stock airbox, instead of what improvement it made over and open-ended HFM with no intake at all. Do I have that part of your post understood correctly?

I beleive James only claims 3-4 hp increase, and I'm guessing that's over a stock airbox.


That is a 325 ITS car also... We learned not to claim big numbers unless everyone can get them. But really, 3-4 Hp for a $150 difference versus another intake seems like something to jump on? How much did you spend for the other 75 or so you got? Hp/dollar it would be $3200 for a full race IP engine if it was that cheap. Where does the line for that start?!

That is a 325 ITS car also... We learned not to claim big numbers unless everyone can get them. But really, 3-4 Hp for a $150 difference versus another intake seems like something to jump on? How much did you spend for the other 75 or so you got? Hp/dollar it would be $3200 for a full race IP engine if it was that cheap. Where does the line for that start?!


James, not sure where you're going with that. My real question is how does an open ended HFM affect engine output? Does it affect it at all? I don't know, because it never really ocurred to me to try it.

And yes, if I could get 3-4 HP for every $150 you can consider me sold!

James, not sure where you're going with that. My real question is how does an open ended HFM affect engine output? Does it affect it at all? I don't know, because it never really ocurred to me to try it.

And yes, if I could get 3-4 HP for every $150 you can consider me sold!

I will post the formulas my discussion will be based on shortly :)

Open HFM - typically makes power. You can put a velocity stack on it and theoretically make more. The 3-4 we claim is pretty repeatable.

Hey Vern, while I do not doubt the quality of BW's airbox that they're putting on this IP car, and in fact am considering one myself, it would be nice to know what improvement it made over another cold air intake, or even the stock airbox, instead of what improvement it made over and open-ended HFM with no intake at all. Do I have that part of your post understood correctly?

I beleive James only claims 3-4 hp increase, and I'm guessing that's over a stock airbox.

True, we did not have another cold air intake handy to compare to. But the other IP racer I mentioned uses a pretty common cold air intake with a large flowerpot ITG filter, so we plan on trying all three (no airbox at all, the common ITG, and the BW race box). I agree with your comment, you would never run without SOME kind of airbox, just for engine protection if nothing else. I'm not sure when my friend is going to re-dyno his IP car, when he does I'll ask him to try a few runs with no box, with his ITG, and then try it with my BW intake and get a comparison. I'm also going to do the same thing when I re-dyno next month. I logically assumed that having NO airbox at all would yield the most horepower, but I do not know, that may be very untrue. That may be the absolute worst way to make horsepower. So a good cold-air intake may be better than no airbox at all, and perhaps the BW box is that much better yet. If so, then the 3-4 hp increase makes sense. I also do not have the box insulated at all yet, I need to figure out a way to keep some of the engine heat away from the box.

I also do not have the box insulated at all yet, I need to figure out a way to keep some of the engine heat away from the box.

I've seen the NASA gold foil stuff used in that application...you can see it on intakes from World Challenge to Daytona Prototypes.

I've seen the NASA gold foil stuff used in that application...you can see it on intakes from World Challenge to Daytona Prototypes.

That or I prefer the thick stuff that is silver. We have some I think or you can get it from Cool Ride. The gold stuff reflects heat well, but an air layer is a better insulator for this type of application.

Hey Vern, while I do not doubt the quality of BW's airbox that they're putting on this IP car, and in fact am considering one myself, it would be nice to know what improvement it made over another cold air intake, or even the stock airbox, instead of what improvement it made over and open-ended HFM with no intake at all. Do I have that part of your post understood correctly?

I beleive James only claims 3-4 hp increase, and I'm guessing that's over a stock airbox.

Just to clarify - I originally wasn't going to the dyno to try to post a good number, I was going to try to shake out the engine under a load after an oil-pump failure, and to make sure the drivetrain was functional under a load. So I was running it without any airbox, because of laziness. Then when we got a pretty good number after a few runs (276 rwhp, on a Mustang which supposedly reads lower than a Dynojet depending on the calibration), I decided to see how much the BW box restricted it. I assumed that the BW box would read a lower number than having no airbox at all (just an assumption, I figured that ANY type of restriction in front of the MAF would reduce horsepower). Exactly the opposite obviously. If I had gone there knowing I was going to see something like that, and if I had known I was going to see a pretty high number, I would have been better prepared with an ITG intake, etc. Next time I'll be better prepared and be able to do a full comparison.

That or I prefer the thick stuff that is silver. We have some I think or you can get it from Cool Ride. The gold stuff reflects heat well, but an air layer is a better insulator for this type of application.

Yeah, have some of that stuff on various places on our car. I guess it's a matter of application. I tend to see the gold foil used on more intricate pieces since it's easier to form or where weight is a big concern.

That or I prefer the thick stuff that is silver. We have some I think or you can get it from Cool Ride. The gold stuff reflects heat well, but an air layer is a better insulator for this type of application.

I have some of the thick silver stuff, before I dyno it again, I'm going to see what I can do to insulate it. I should be able to re-dyno the car again in early Feb when I get back to Pittsburgh (where the car is). My friend may be able to dyno his IP M3 sooner than that with the BW box vs ITG.

That or I prefer the thick stuff that is silver. We have some I think or you can get it from Cool Ride. The gold stuff reflects heat well, but an air layer is a better insulator for this type of application.

James is right, the silver works better in our experience too! The gold stuff did not last long on Holder's car. But as B.Watts stated, we did use it on places with tight areas or intricate contours also on the hood (for weight).

I also do not have the box insulated at all yet, I need to figure out a way to keep some of the engine heat away from the box.

May sound silly but what about some of that radiant barrier stuff everybody is putting in there attics now? Its supposed to reflect ~97% of the radiant heat. Its cheap and would be easy to install. Maybe ghetto, if you did it cleanly though might look good. Just a random thought..(as I contemplate ways to lower my elect bill in the spring)

Here's a weblink:

http://www.radiantguard.com/

We have sued that HVAC stuff before. Create an air layer and it should work...

I've been using the silver stuff (turbo/ header wrap) around my intake. I used the metallic 3M tape to secure it since it's own adhesive didn't seem to want to stay attached to something with low heat. (I think)
The guys with the gold stuff make fun of me cuz it ain't as pimp.
Anyways, 3-4 whp is impressive for an airbox, 8 is nutty! Sweeeeeeet!

Last for today.

Right side net front attachment
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/rsnet2.jpg

Almost complete for the time being here...
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/intake.jpg

And almost car-like on the outside
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/wwheels.jpg

Dyno, decals, and the small odds and ends will be done tomorrow.

The gold film also can not tolerate as much huch heat as the silver in most cases. Off the top of my head I think the generic gold is 650-700, and the silver can do 900-1000+. Obviously it varies by product.

James, what type of external oil filter are you using, Fram?

And as for the intake, it definitely says something about the intake manifold...not sure if they are letting manifolds in prepared anymore, but it can definitely do a lot. Some resonance tuning with headers and you can get area under the curve up quite a bit. We had something similar to that effect on the euro m3 motor. Without anything connected to the airbox, it was down 4-6whp, and that was after we bolted on an old PRM filter from my VW only made to support 250hp lol Once the bigger filter finally arrived i'm sure it helped even furhter (I think it was 12" compared to 15".

I like the airbox setup, but did you look into using a round tube instead? I'm pretty sure there are some low profile conical filters and/or round panels for some kind of car. I like the inverted cone filter setup, lots of surface area - plus the added bonus of the vortices created by the shape.

Last for today.


Dyno, decals, and the small odds and ends will be done tomorrow.


James, looks great! Hard to believe it went from the pics on page 1 to what we see today, especially knowing how much work it was. I'd hate to see the OT bill!

I'd hate to see the OT bill!

Minimal! Besides Dave's work this weekend, we did it during shop hours, along with the CM car we stripped and prepping/setting up 3x WC cars for Sebring. We are lucky to have good guys in the shop. :redspot

Make that AWESOME guys.

Still hiring?

Still hiring?

I think so. We are looking for the right person to add to the shop that can work independantly.

I think so. We are looking for the right person to add to the shop that can work independantly.

Spelling skills are optional.

Spelling skills are optional.

it's that VT edumacation...

Spelling skills are optional.

Oh. r-o-C-k, the C is silent...

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/p1150005.jpg

Yes - no car! At the dyno.

Oh. r-o-C-k, the C is silent...

Rirruto?

Dyno done. Final alignment, scaling, decalling. Decals first of course!

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decalling.JPG

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal2.jpg

Subtle, I thought it would be a 6 foot BW sticker wrapping around every corner :)

Oh it's Huemann's car!! They'll be no living with the guy now! Nice build... no more 24 hr round trips back to KY for trannies etc. for Billy!

I thought Bill was going to use the e36 yellow wide body as the donor for this project? The car looks great.

Yep - Bill's new baby. Was less destructive to start with this car than try to pull the widebody back to prepared.

6' decal - nah, the car kind of speaks for itself I think :)

Excellent build

Thanks for all the pics

dont really know if this is a inappropiate thing to ask if it is you dont have to answer, but how much does a thing like that to get done cost?
Anyways awesome build and nice insight...:)

You could probably easily add up $20k with just parts and the cage... Add to that the complete strip down/rebuilt, paint, engine work and everything else... Definitely not cheap..

Car looks great though. Can't wait to see it running at Sebring this weekend.

Spelling skills are optional.

Interpersonal skills are mandatory, however. Sorry, Scott, but you're out.

Interpersonal skills are mandatory, however. Sorry, Scott, but you're out.

STFU, Mrs. Dillehay.

James, I know this is probably the last of your priorities but were you able to get the STACK to read the fuel load accurately with the E36's stock dual pickups? This is probably the last thing preventing me from getting an ST8130P for my car as I don't intend to run an aftermarket fuel cell

We have an older ST8100 in our civic track car and it's hands-down the best display out there.. the analogue tach is so much easier to read than the eccentric bar graph scale on the Motec and other dashes

great car btw (I like your uberwagon more tho' :D)

dont really know if this is a inappropiate thing to ask if it is you dont have to answer, but how much does a thing like that to get done cost?

Not really a public discussion, but all the parts are listed on the website or you can certainly call us to discuss if you want to get something built - we do a pretty wide range of projects here.

James, I know this is probably the last of your priorities but were you able to get the STACK to read the fuel load accurately with the E36's stock dual pickups? This is probably the last thing preventing me from getting an ST8130P for my car as I don't intend to run an aftermarket fuel cell

great car btw (I like your uberwagon more tho' :D)

We are using an 8812 in this car - the 8130P has the internal fuel gauge (8812 doesn't) and I suspect it would require a little work to modulate the signal but it should work with effort. BMW uses resistance instead of voltage - non-standard.

And thanks - this one will likely be faster on a racetrack though :(

we do a pretty wide range of projects here.

Can you make an ugly green IP car pretty?



waits for the funny guys comments

Can you make an ugly green IP car pretty?

waits for the funny guys comments

Me first!!! My mom's green E36 is pretty sweet. Bring your car on up, if you can catch her you can look it over. :D

Looks great guys. well done.

Late night decalling - the final touches!

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal3.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal4.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal5.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal6.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal7.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal8.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal9.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal10.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/decal11.jpg

Damn that car is beautiful! Great work James (and the BW lads)!
-Ted

A few small things left and we made it! Those decals took about 6 hours tonight, but VBD did an awesome job of making everything fit right out of the box. It is pretty sweet that it was the only thing that kept is late :buttrock

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/done1.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/done2.jpg

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/done3.jpg

...... wow ........

James & crew, the car looks great. Awesome job. Really impressive with the time limit too. Thanks for sharing the build with us.

:redspot About to head out :redspot

See you guys tomorrow!!

do we get to find out any of the dyno results?

Thanks guys - see you at Sebring!

No technical specs, sorry - never said we would offer those :)

It's only missing one essential high-performance race piece...

black front kidneys ;)

Very nice build and that is one beautiful car! The really like that white. Looks very clean.

Although I feel as if I could have done the same quality work, I fear it would have taken me 2 weeks, instead of 1 ;)

Great work guys, looks awesome!

Great job and really nice of you to share the details with us.

If she's as fast as she looks you guys going to Sebring are in trouble!

Great looking machine! Clean & Mean! ;)

that is one sexy bmw

the car looks great. kinda hard to see, but is that a gurney flap on the rear wing?

Yes it is.

I finally got a chance to see this car in person, and it's stunning. (Wear sunglasses...it's bright white!) It's set a benchmark for how I, and a few others from the conversations I heard around it, would like to build a race car.

Kudos to the build team.

I also heard the owner did pretty well in his first outting...

How did Winterfest go?

The car is beautiful. You guys did a great job in a short amount of time. I know the Heumann's frequent Putnam Park in Indiana so I hope to see it in person this year.

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_388_.jpg

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_665_.jpg

And some other BW love ;)

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_397_.jpg

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_440_.jpg

Thanks Steve. I should have some good pics shortly to put up also.

This is a cool shot

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_971_.jpg

There is something wrong with this picture...I just can't put my finger on it lol

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_1035_.jpg

IP car came out looking great. What did you use for the LTW flag vinyl, or is it custom?

.

LOL Me or Steve?

IP car came out looking great. What did you use for the LTW flag vinyl, or is it custom?

http://vbdgraphics.com/ - and they race BMWs in CR! We own the design on this car though (or the customer does).

Nice Work James. Best of luck This coming Week in Florida.

I got my CF dash plate in from you guys (thanks), I am getting ready to drill out the gauge holes, etc.

I read how it "may need trimming"

Well, I cut it twice and its still too short:mad

There is something wrong with this picture...I just can't put my finger on it lol

http://www.clubgoomba.com/forum/gallery/files/1/pboc_winterfest_1035_.jpg

Hmmm. The stockcar or the part of Realtime Nick brought with him?

Nice Work James. Best of luck This coming Week in Florida.

I got my CF dash plate in from you guys (thanks), I am getting ready to drill out the gauge holes, etc.


Nope - our FL week just happened - we are off for a few weeks then more testing. Our season starts in March on the 12 Hour weekend.

Call the guys in the office if you have a problem with a product. We like your stuff to be right if there is a problem!

Nope - our FL week just happened - we are off for a few weeks then more testing. Our season starts in March on the 12 Hour weekend.

Call the guys in the office if you have a problem with a product. We like your stuff to be right if there is a problem!

Oh, okay I thought you guys were doing the Race at Daytona.



You missed my joke about the CF panel, wtf.


I cut it twice, and it was still too short


Bad Joke?

It was my own fault, Ill make it work though it will be fine. Thanks though!

I got it - if it was wrong to start with, let us solve it! Thanks.

The thing thats wrong with the picture is an E90 should not be racing along side a Nascar ;) I didn't those cars can turn right, crazy.

Hmmm. The stockcar or the part of Realtime Nick brought with him?
Is that the Acura orange on the mirrors?

-tammer

wow!! i'm thrilled when a tech session at a friend's only runs over a few hours.....:)
great work - thanks for sharing!!

Saw Bills car at Winterfest and it is a very nice machine. I followed him for a while on the track and the car looked very stable and smooth.

See some of you at Barber at the end of March.

Is that the Acura orange on the mirrors?


At Nick's request.

Saw the car in person (and raced along side of it!). Absolutely fantastic looking and performing machine. I did not get a chance to snap pics of the sweet removable doors. Can we see how that works?

Saw the car in person (and raced along side of it!). Absolutely fantastic looking and performing machine. I did not get a chance to snap pics of the sweet removable doors. Can we see how that works?

Dunno if they did it the same as I did, but mine are removable. Just remove the screws from the hinges. Open the door, lift up, presto. It's very secure when closed.

Here are a few from the weekend:

The car with the guys that made it happen
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/BillHeumannM3-2.jpg

Running around the track
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/BillHeumannM3-3.jpg

In the paddock
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/BillHeumannM3-6.jpg

Removable doors - nothing fancy, just no wiring connector and the retaining bolts removed so they open, then lift off.
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/BillHeumannM3-8.jpg

That's an odd looking window net. Saving weight on webbing? ;)

Jay

That's an odd looking window net. Saving weight on webbing? ;)


Mesh/ribbon combo - so you get the protection of the ribbon, but you actually have some visibility.

Mesh/ribbon combo - so you get the protection of the ribbon, but you actually have some visibility.

Sounds like a new Trojan commercial to me...

In the paddock
http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/BillHeumannM3-6.jpg

[/IMG]

Is that a euro coolant reservoir in the back rhs of the engine bay?

http://www.bimmerworld.com/images/E36IP_BH/engineheaders.JPG


No it's from an M20 (E30). :devillook
Did you ever ask for a clarification, I remember you talking about it last year.

-Carlos.

No it's from an M20 (E30). :devillook
Did you ever ask for a clarification, I remember you talking about it last year.

-Carlos.

I thought that I did, but can't find anything in the clarification archives. The '08 rules allow the substitution of a metal catch can.

I like it! (the orange) You probably knew that though!

-Rick


At Nick's request.

Bill (and the car) did wonderful on their debut weekend. Bill was EXTREMELY pleased with the car.

Saturday was a mess. During practice, Bill realized the ABS wasn't working the hard way. He flat spotted all 4 brand new tires while trying to avoid rear ending a Diasio. The prototype car came to an almost standstill in front of him while managing traffic.

With new shoes on, Bill then went out and qualified first in class. However he left to late for the race and had to start from the pits on a field of 50+ cars. Nonetheless, he was doing great, passing people right and left, until he was "meatballed". On his rush, he forgot to lock the hood pins! Good thing James and Co. left the factory secondary latch in place (somebody mentioned it was Bassen's idea). It saved him a new hood, a windshield and a roof. Having to pit during a sprint race, his race was pretty much over. On his rush to make up for so much lost time, he ended up spinning on turn 17 and cording yet another tire (big thanks to Randy who let him borrow two of his wheels/tires for the race on Sunday).

Bill was obviously pissed at himself, since none of it was the car's fault.

So he took a good night sleep, and came out Sunday strong.

There was no qualifying on Sunday, so starting position was based on Saturday's final race position. Meaning, pretty far down the order for Bill. It didn't matter. He drove a perfect race and had his best lap of his weekend. He won the class by a pretty comfortable margin. The car was so hooked, it wasn't even a contest.

Impressive indeed. Great car, great driver. Hard to beat that.

Kudos to James, Bill and the guys at BW. They were all first class.

Now it's time to build an IP car identical to Bill's. So I can beat him. :-)

How is the steering column any more of a chassis atttachment point than a seat back brace? Sorry, don't see it.
Going back to the dash bar/steering column debate, it's now legal to do so in Prepared.

Pg 41: "Steering column may be mounted to the optional roll cage front cross bar (A to B as indicated on the Roll Cage Diagra