The project has begun! BMW 850 Twin Turbo

The first dyo pulls are in. Again, here is patient:



1991 M70 V12, ported\polished heads, full valve job, intakes and exhaust manifold gasket matched and cleaned up, Authority chips, Eisenmann exhaust with resonators removed, CSI clutch kit, 6 speed with UUC short throw shifter, 3.15 LSD, bla bla bla



It was a nice cold day in Atlanta and the numbers are in.



Rear wheel horse power: 256

Rear wheel torque: 286



Car was running rich, Authority chips. No tuning was done. This is just a base run to know what we are starting with. Cross your fingers, it’s about to get ugly.

Alex

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helping what goes around, to come around....Carma

Please keep us posted, Very interested in some TT's, Do you plan on upping the injectors? Remapping software? Are headers involved? Excuse me, I'm excited! Any pics? Thanks!

This is gonna be great. I'm also curious about the injectors, and, yeahhhh, the headers :)

Most likely we'll move to bigger injectors, custom tube headers to turbo flang, may have to go to porsche MAS systme, and the biggest part is the cusom EPROM chips. The guys working on mine have the ability to go into these OBDI cars and fully custom tune them. A lot of the problems people have with adding turbos is the piggy back computer system. Piggy back systems just trick the factory ECUs. That is why tuning becomes so hard and getting a smooth curve is difficult. We will be burning chips FOR the ECUs that a programed for turboed M70s. To make things even cooler, the EPROMS can have up to 8 batch programs. Meaning the new devices will allow 2, 4, or 8 different maps or functions to be added to the existing 413 platform.
Possible implementations include fuel trims, fuel type switches, varied rev limiters, valet mode, dry and wet maps, traction control, launch control, 2 step rev limits, and flat-shift.
The system is currently in the testing phase.
Think of it. Settings for low (7psi) boost for daily driving (4??horse) the flip the switch, add some octane booster, and crank up the boost to 12 and hit it. The possibilities are incredible.

The software remapping sounds great and major sophisticated, I don't know if the V12 can handle 12psi on a regular basis with too many upgrades, That type of boosts like low compression! Are the turbo's pulling from the exhaust or forcing through the intakes? Tia!

*****Not sure if you seen this below, But it's a nice NEW engine for such a great project! It is missing some internals which would probably be put to the side anyway to reach the HP levels you plan to achieve, Just a thought!*****
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/bmw-850-engine-e31-bodystyle-12-cylinder_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ003Q QitemZ130186978572QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-1751-2978-71/1?AID=5463217&PID=2518995&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Febaymotors%2Fbmw-850-engine-e31-bodystyle-12-cylinder_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ003Q QitemZ130186978572QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

8eights, PumpedTSI's car runs 14 PSI on each bank and still has the stock pistons with 8.8:1 compression on 93 octane gas. Generally speaking, 4 PSI is 1 compression point, the lowest that you can go is 7.5:1 compression on 93 octane gas, and 12:1 compression is the highest you can go with 93 octane pump gas so the most boost you can run on 93 pump gas is around 20 PSI. This maybe a little off but it is what I remember from my Performance engine building class.

Were talking 2 totally different engines also, No way Dinan can build a stage 3 turbo and only get 256 at the wheels! I doubt theres stock pistons in there too! To much power to be had there, I would think they might be custom of some sort, Gotta go back and read up, These 12's are different, If that was the case we should all be turbo by now, I know i will be soon especially if it's true. School is great but hard knocks/Trouble shooting and experience will be you on a strip almost everytime.

8eights, PumpedTSI's car runs 14 PSI on each bank and still has the stock pistons with 8.8:1 compression on 93 octane gas. Generally speaking, 4 PSI is 1 compression point, the lowest that you can go is 7.5:1 compression on 93 octane gas, and 12:1 compression is the highest you can go with 93 octane pump gas so the most boost you can run on 93 pump gas is around 20 PSI. This maybe a little off but it is what I remember from my Performance engine building class.

Jimmy, mine is a stroker motor using a 5.6 CSi block with forged pistons and a 8:1 compression ratio.......

Well shit, I was wrong about PumpedTSI's car and next time I should consort the PM he sent me a while ago before hand. :silly

But still 14 PSI divided by 4 = 3.5 additional compression points and 3.5+8= 11.5:1 total compression ratio which is right in the good range for a boosted motor. Just some number crunching from kid wishing he had that much power.:ponder:drool::drool::drool:

Well shit, I was wrong about PumpedTSI's car and next time I should consort the PM he sent me a while ago before hand. :silly

hell Jimmy, I'm STILL gathering info on this whole Stage 3 setup but info from a reliable source says stroker motor with CSi block and forged slugs........

But still 14 PSI divided by 4 = 3.5 additional compression points and 3.5+8= 11.5:1 total compression ratio which is right in the good range for a boosted motor. Just some number crunching from kid wishing he had that much power.:ponder:drool::drool::drool:

dont forget each psi of boost roughly equates to 12.5 extra Hp..........:buttrock
my car is running 28 psi total..............14 on each bank......

All this Hp and Boooooost talk really puts chills on me, I can't even reply correctly!

Wow Pumped, 8:1 compression, 28psi?!? Sign me up! Makes me wonder what I can do with my M60.

You should try a single SC, You will be up and flying in no time. Here's a pic of Steve's 840.

Yes, that's what I want!

my car is running 28 psi total..............14 on each bank......

Ummmmm, PSI is NOT additive, if you have 14 PSI, that is 14 PSI! It is incorrect to state 14 PSI in each bank as "28 PSI total".

I can assure you that if you had the turbo's joined into one intercooler and then split to each bank, at 14 PSI you wouldn't have any performance change from your separate system for each bank at 14 PSI each side.

OK OK I agree with Koiuzumi... I have an 840 (obviously) 73,000 miles and I've been very interested in a SC for a long time. Is there someone reputable that does it or can supply a kit specific to an 840? I'm tired of all the new cars having the hp/torque edge.

Doubtful that you will find a S/C kit for the E312 840 that will meet CA emissions. Some have used 540 kits and adapted them to the 840, but still will not meet CA emissions unless someone has gone thru C.A.R.B. testing and certification.

Bummer... that story and part availibility just goes on and on for the 840...
Like someone else once stated here... The car looks fast and I look really really cool driving it... IMO of course.

Yeah, it is really unfortunate for us here in CA, and of course for those that have E31s in general, there is not a lot of GOOD legal, reliable (and of course inexpensive) ways to increase the performance to go with it's GREAT looks!

It is an old platform and technology moves on!

MWrench... What do you (and the rest of you guys) think of the Shark Injector OBDII Software?

I know a way to get around a states emissions testing: move to somewhere that does not have testing like a Midwest state. A mail box in another state counts as an address so you can have out of state tags and not have to pass emissions.:devillook

Ummmmm, PSI is NOT additive, if you have 14 PSI, that is 14 PSI! It is incorrect to state 14 PSI in each bank as "28 PSI total".

I can assure you that if you had the turbo's joined into one intercooler and then split to each bank, at 14 PSI you wouldn't have any performance change from your separate system for each bank at 14 PSI each side.

So does that mean he can go higher or what?

Damn, that's not the kinda news I was hoping to hear about the S/C application for V8 E31. One of the reasons why I chose the V8 in the first place was so that I can slap in an S/C application!

I figured that the 540 S/C kit would be CA emissions compliant.

How difficult is it to remove an S/C kit every 2 years for the test?

Ummmmm, PSI is NOT additive, if you have 14 PSI, that is 14 PSI! It is incorrect to state 14 PSI in each bank as "28 PSI total".

I can assure you that if you had the turbo's joined into one intercooler and then split to each bank, at 14 PSI you wouldn't have any performance change from your separate system for each bank at 14 PSI each side.

Hmmm.........doesnt make sense Ed.........two turbos, two banks of six, two intercoolers, two bypass valves, two boost guages.........well, you get the point..........in effect what Dinan has done is to turbo the V12 in two banks of six and therefore two seperate engines almost. Basic math says using your theory.......stock Hp 296 @ 14 psi OVERALL times 12.5 Hp = 175 Hp plus the stock 296 = TOTAL Hp of 471.

My math and Dinans math is 175 Hp PER bank of six plus stock Hp of 296 = TOTAL Hp of 646 which is a lot closer to the Stage 3 specs..........


Again Ed, not trying to undermine your thought process but the math works...:)

I know a way to get around a states emissions testing: move to somewhere that does not have testing like a Midwest state. A mail box in another state counts as an address so you can have out of state tags and not have to pass emissions.:devillook



So does that mean he can go higher or what?

Yes some have moved out of State because of emissions issues. If however you have registered the car out of State and have a CA drivers license, that will net a big fine if you are pulled over, you will have to explain or declare what State you claim as residence. Things like that work until you get caught! AND don't try to sell a car that has been modified and will not meet emissions, the seller is responsible for emissions testing at the time of sale.

No, he can't go higher, as a matter of fact, Dinan does not recommend or set up their Stage III cars that high, 10 PSI is their limit. if you regularly and often push the V-12 to those limits, you WILL blow head gaskets or break head bolts! Secondly, the knock sensors are add on devices and any hiccup there will lead to detonation and will cause head gasket problems even at lower boost levels. The 5.6L engine is a bit more sensitive to detonation issues because there is less sealing area between cylinders

No, he can't go higher, as a matter of fact, Dinan does not recommend or set up their Stage III cars that high, 10 PSI is their limit. if you regularly and often push the V-12 to those limits, you WILL blow head gaskets or break head bolts! Secondly, the knock sensors are add on devices and any hiccup there will lead to detonation and will cause head gasket problems even at lower boost levels. The 5.6L engine is a bit more sensitive to detonation issues because there is less sealing area between cylinders

Ed, the Stage 2 cars run 10 psi which makes around 550 Hp.........

Basic math says using your theory.......stock Hp 296 @ 14 psi OVERALL times 12.5 Hp = 175 Hp plus the stock 296 = TOTAL Hp of 471.

Basic math is using a guess, 12.5 HP/lb of boost. I have never believed that number to be correct, I know it is used a lot but I haven't seen the actual proof and see a lot of different numbers of HP/lb floating around. It varies a lot depending on how the engine is set up.

Maybe I am not making myself clear, in one case you use the total HP of the 12 cylinder engine at 296 and then add 175 to each bank? There is where the calculations fall apart, Maybe, just maybe, the number of 12.5 HP/lb isn't the right number.

Another example, if you had a single turbo feeding both banks at 14 PSI would you do the same? Why would that be any difference then an inline engine of 4, 6, 8, or 12 cylinders? Why not add 175 HP to each cylinder?

Further, your engine is 5.6L engine even thou it has reduced compression should be producing more N/A HP then 296 HP that the 5.0L does. If it has CSI or Schrick cams it probably is more like 320-330 HP. (I know I am getting picky! ~{:+))

What's with the new math here, gents?

12.5 HP per pound of boost?

Divide boost by 4 and add to static compression to calculate ECR (effective compression ratio)?

In a word - - BULLSHIT.

Here's the real way to calculate ECR...

ECR = [(atmos pressure+boost)/(atmos pressure)]*mechanical CR

ECR = [(14.5+14)/(14.5)]*8
= [28.5/14.5]*8
= 15.72

And here's a quick and dirty way to calculate HP...

HP = [(atmos pressure+boost)/(atmos pressure)]*(normally aspirated HP)

HP = [(14.5+14)/(14.5)]*320
= [28.5/14.5]*320
= 629

Hope this helps...

My case rests!

See what happens when the experts get involved................heheh...........I'm not putting my math up against either of you guys..........my case also rests....thanks for the clarifications guys.........:)

We did the first runs (NO TURBOS) to get a base line. If I recall it was about 287 hp to the rear wheels. We are currently waiting on the exhaust flanges to be cut. We plan to go with a header style exhaust manifold (not log style) May be able to offer headers with this design minus turbo flang if people are interested in that too. I'll let you know what happens next
Alex