With all of these off-season projects going on, I figured I'd post mine as well. However, I'm not a pro shop or engineer, so my "to-do list" is more questions than tasks. Of course BW's build is going to be awesome, and Steve J's car looks incredible (if he can get it done!), I just want something that is fun, reliable, and doesn't cost a fortune. A cold beer for anyone who can give me any advice on all of this.

First off, I'm a complete idiot. I got a free S54 (bought a wrecked car, parted it out, kept the engine and required parts, made $$$ on the deal). Well that "free" engine has already cost me a ton to rebuild (new bearings, rods, bolts), and now I've got to make it work in my car, add bigger brakes, and put more rubber on the ground. So here's my list, LMK what you think! But when I say I'm on a tight budget, I mean a TIGHT BUDGET. Yes, I really need to make this work with stock engine management. Reliabiltity and simplicity are more important than a few extra HP.

E36 M3 S54 GTS-4 C-Mod Racecar
Off season build/mods/questions

1. Rebuild S54- (done!)
2. Install S54
3. Where/how to install/plumb Accusump (like Jared's car?)
4. Oil cooler- is custom going to be cheaper? What size/brand cooler, what fittings/hoses
5. Engine cooling- new water pump? ($$$) Motorsports Thermostat? ($$$)
6. Replace damaged PS pump pulley/belt (Bavarian Hypersport)
7. Wire car using stock S54 harness and DME
8. Do I have to use throttle-by-wire? (VAC delete kit)
9. Do I need to use E46 M3 instrument cluster (and is the fact that it’s an SMG cluster an issue?)
10. Rig EWS-bypass (box with EWS CPU, key, key antenna)
11. Do I need an E46 M3 speed sensor? If so, how/where do I install it (wheel speed sensor)
12. Change diff gear ratio: from 3.73 to 4.10? (with stock E36 M3 5-speed 8K redline))
13. Should I just swap out the gearset, or get a whole new diff?
14. Diff cooler/finned cover?
15. Install Alcon BBK
16. Install adjustable brake proportioning valve to prevent flat-spotted tires? (Will this help? No ABS)
17. Figure out why I have no travel in my front suspension (TC Kline Koni DA’s)
18. Install Pennon front flared fenders
19. Have bodyshop cut rear fenders (as per ABLoriginalparts.com) and install Pennon rear flares
20. Install ATL black box in fuel cell
21. Buy another set of wheels! (18x10 Enkeis) and tires (BFG R1 275/35/18)
22. New gauges/data acquisition?
23. Add stock M3 rear swaybar
24. Corner balance/align

I'm documenting the whole thing with photos, so I'll get those posted ASAP. Oh, and my first race is late February...holy crap that's soon! Thanks! Max

1. Rebuild S54- (done!)
2. Install S54
"Hope you have the required wiring harnesses, DME, EWS box, key, ring and A2 cluster."
5. Engine cooling- new water pump? ($$$) Motorsports Thermostat? ($$$) "Some run stock pump, Stewart pump is not available for S54. Some run MS thermo."
7. Wire car using stock S54 harness and DME
"Sounds like you have the wiring"
8. Do I have to use throttle-by-wire? (VAC delete kit)
"Why do you feel you need to delete it?"
9. Do I need to use E46 M3 instrument cluster (and is the fact that it’s an SMG cluster an issue?)
"The A2 cluster is the network gateway for the EWS system. You will need to retain it based on the technology that we know of today. I don't know about the SMG part, but clearly there may be some issues with some of the SMG stuff and the DME."
10. Rig EWS-bypass (box with EWS CPU, key, key antenna)
"You need the EWS box, key ring, key and the cluster talking to each other in order to synchronize the DME for start. They just need to be connected together as they are by the wiring harness. "
11. Do I need an E46 M3 speed sensor? If so, how/where do I install it (wheel speed sensor)
"I don't really know"

There may be some other things you will need one of those being professional help. There are some others who have done this swap and BW is a shop that can get it done I believe.

Chris

Another diff option is a 3.91 from an E36 6cyl auto. I was going to do this exact swap but a sourced an S52 for cheap. I had once found some good links for this swap, if I find them I will post it.

I'll be interested to see how your build goes. that's a lot to do in such a short time span!! i thought about an S54 in the future, but i'll stick with my "known quantity" S52 right now.

i know little about gearing, but it seems using a stock S52 5sp tranny with the power you're going to make and using a 3.91 or 4.10 is going to run out of revs pretty quick. in fact, i am switching from a 3.91 to 3.64 for that reason, and i only have a S52. maybe someone else knows more about it than me?

i know little about gearing, but it seems using a stock S52 5sp tranny with the power you're going to make and using a 3.91 or 4.10 is going to run out of revs pretty quick. in fact, i am switching from a 3.91 to 3.64 for that reason, and i only have a S52. maybe someone else knows more about it than me?

Depends on the track. Around here with my Euro motor, a 4.10 at MSR is fine (I could probably even use a 4.27 and be ok top speed wise- not sure about shift points). TWS will probably need me to put in my 3.73 (as would probably Road Atlanta). Estimate the top speed you will see and get the right diff in there to get to that speed.


The S54 has another 300 rpms above my motor. Most competitive IPers run 3.73s I think.

the z3 with s54 uses the speed sensor in the diff.see if the wiring would match up. you might need a re-flash of the ecu.

talk to mark Desylva? at: http://www.dsylva-tech.ca/
he was able to crack the euro motor DME so it would run without EWS II.
maybe he has cracked the s54 DME an it would save you some wiring. as for the drive-by-wire, the gas pedal assy from a z3 s54 should work. or make a delete if mark can delete it in his software.

good luck.

Might be some info to help in this thread.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=68462

Not entirely relevant but in my former CM car (euro 3.0l bored/stroked to 3.2l) I ran a 4.27...this was with the 6spd though. I used 6th gear at Mid Ohio and Putnam Park very easily. I *believe* the former owner ran the car at Road America but with a 3.91.

Not entirely relevant but in my former CM car (euro 3.0l bored/stroked to 3.2l) I ran a 4.27...this was with the 6spd though. I used 6th gear at Mid Ohio and Putnam Park very easily. I *believe* the former owner ran the car at Road America but with a 3.91.

Yep! Larry ran BMW CCA Club Racing's fastest lap (in any class) at Road America in that car. Don't know what diff ratio was in the car back then, but it was honkin' fast! ;)

Max
IMO a Standalone EM will save you a lot of hassle.

Justin, your're getting me an AEM standalone for Christmas?!!! Sweet! Thanks!:cool

I'm pretty sure Jared Sedacca runs a 4:10 with his S54 and E36 M3 trans, and he said that felt pretty good. BTW, my home tracks are VIR and Summit, both have relatively long straights.

You can EASILY run a 4.45 and 6-speed with a S54 at any track mentioned here. That said, after knocking the teeth off a 4.45 at Watkins, we're starting to consider going back to a 5-speed and a 3.91 ish diff in order to get a beefier ring and pinion.

excuse my ignorance (gearing is not my strong point) but won't you run out of revs with a 4.10 and 5 spd tranny on the long straights? or are you using a 6spd?

also, can you point me to a website where you found the fender flares? How much weight do you anticipate losing?

Sticking with the stock 5-speed E36 M3 trans. Bryan makes a good point, about durability.

Fender flares are coming from Pennon Composites. I went with this setup not to reduce weight, but beacuse they're pretty much bolt-on, no bodywork and major painting. Here are pics they sent me from Ike Neilson's car (no pics on their website)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMWflare2.jpghttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMWflare1.jpghttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMW7.jpg

looks good.:buttrock
pricing info?

excuse my ignorance (gearing is not my strong point) but won't you run out of revs with a 4.10 and 5 spd tranny on the long straights? or are you using a 6spd?

Depends on how many revs you have...your S52 won't rev nearly as high as a S54. 7100 vs 8200...

Fender flares are coming from Pennon Composites. I went with this setup not to reduce weight, but beacuse they're pretty much bolt-on, no bodywork and major painting.

Hard to believe you won't need to cut the rear metal fenders in order to make room for a wide tire to stick outside of the stock fender opening.

Bryan,

You definitely have to cut the fenders, but that's about it; no bonding/sanding the rear quarters like Zeemax, and no trying to line up tons of pieces like the PTG.

Dave, it's $500 for the rear, and $650 for the front.

4. Take a look at the VPD setup for info.
8. It makes rev matching so easy, why would you?
9. Yes. You can use a manual or SMG, but if it doesn't match the DME config, you'll have to have a GT1 to reset the car (dealership)
12. Fast tracks the 4.10 will require 6th gear (IE TWS)
13. Whole new diff. The stock setup will last less than a full season, great though it is when it is working.
15. So much for a "tight" budget. =)
16. Yes and it's relatively easy to do
17 Depends on stack height of camber plates, spring stiffness and length, and ride height. Assuming you're ~700lbs per front corner, you're looking for ~800lb 6" springs and a ride hieght not lower than 12.75" from wheel center to STOCK fender lip (measure from bottom of wheel lip, subtract half the wheels lip-lip diameter). You don't need as much travel as you think and bump stops can be cut.

excuse my ignorance (gearing is not my strong point) but won't you run out of revs with a 4.10 and 5 spd tranny on the long straights? or are you using a 6spd?


http://bimmerworld.com/techtips/GearingCalculator.xls

Sticking with the stock 5-speed E36 M3 trans. Bryan makes a good point, about durability.

Fender flares are coming from Pennon Composites. I went with this setup not to reduce weight, but beacuse they're pretty much bolt-on, no bodywork and major painting.

That looks like a great setup!! Not too wide, not as radical as the PTG Kit. What tires can you fit under it? Probably a 250 Front and maybe a 280 rear??? What height?

As Bryan stated and you confirmed, you will definitely need to cut the rear fenders. That kit looks cool!

You can EASILY run a 4.45 and 6-speed with a S54 at any track mentioned here. That said, after knocking the teeth off a 4.45 at Watkins, we're starting to consider going back to a 5-speed and a 3.91 ish diff in order to get a beefier ring and pinion.

What tire diameter are you running, Brian? Or do you have custom trans ratios? My lowly little 2.8 powered car with a 3.91 has me running out of rpm's in 5th at TWS. Granted that's a longer track than most, but there's no way your car couldn't need 6th at TWS even with a 3.91

What tire diameter are you running, Brian? Or do you have custom trans ratios? My lowly little 2.8 powered car with a 3.91 has me running out of rpm's in 5th at TWS. Granted that's a longer track than most, but there's no way your car couldn't need 6th at TWS even with a 3.91

I ran a 3.91 at TWS when I was there last. Never hit 8000rpm rev limiter with the S50B32 engine and BMW DME I was using at that time in CM. ;)

Maybe the 8k vs 7k difference in revs or my 18" wheels might also have larger OD. Either way, I turned the CM record lap that day, so evidently it wasn't too terribly slow. ;)

wow Max you will have a busy winter. Have fun and can't wait to see it finished :buttrock

http://bimmerworld.com/techtips/GearingCalculator.xls

thanks. i wasn't accounting for the 8k redline :help

That looks like a great setup!! Not too wide, not as radical as the PTG Kit. What tires can you fit under it? Probably a 250 Front and maybe a 280 rear??? What height?

As Bryan stated and you confirmed, you will definitely need to cut the rear fenders. That kit looks cool!

Yep, I think that's the size tires that Ike runs on his GTR.

Vince

Today was a good day...

Out with the old...
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1310.jpg

In with the new...

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1315.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1322.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1331.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1334.jpg

The next challenge:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1313.jpg

Tyco, my husky, got me a BIG present from Pennon Composites (GTR Widebody). Here he is putting it under the tree.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1309.jpg

.......
Tyco, my husky, got me a BIG present from Pennon Composites (GTR Widebody). Here he is putting it under the tree.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1309.jpg
Come on man, open that box up and show us what's inside!:stickoutt

Nice. Have fun with the body work...its time consuming to get it to look clean, but its worth it, its a very cool look.

How come no cage to strut towers?

Hey,
Congratulations man, that looks awesome! I have to stop looking at it or Ill find myself getting one too. Keep up the great work, cant wait to see those fenders on there!!!

THanks
Josh

sweet!!! i can be of assistance on sunday. i work till 5 on saturday.

thanks. i wasn't accounting for the 8k redline :help


While I'm not as fast as Bryan or Mike A...my stock euro 3.2 with a 3.91 and my 5 spd tranny was fine at Roebling Road, VIR and Road Atlanta by at least 200 rpms. That's with 18 inch rims! Seems I'm hitting the rev limiter at 7800. Not sure if that's correct since my cluster was from a SMG.

Looks awesome, the new engine looks very clean. Good luck with the electronics.

With all of these off-season projects going on, I figured I'd post mine as well. ...But when I say I'm on a tight budget, I mean a TIGHT BUDGET...

E36 M3 S54 GTS-4 C-Mod Racecar
Off season build/mods/questions

18. Install Pennon front flared fenders
19. Have bodyshop cut rear fenders (as per ABLoriginalparts.com) and install Pennon rear flares
21. Buy another set of wheels! (18x10 Enkeis) and tires (BFG R1 275/35/18)

Max,

The rear fender cutting/mods to fit flares can get a little.... extensive. There's 3 pieces of sheetmetal under there that have to be cut, hammered/moved, and joined/welded. Pics below are from works in progress, prior to the flares being added in each case. This helps show the amount of metal that has to be removed for proper tire clearance (285 to 315mm tires used).

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/167704957-S.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/167705862-S.jpg
http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/174894481-S-1.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/223834465-S.jpg

Also, you said "budget" then put "18x10 Enkeis" in your wish list. Why not go with a less costly 18x10 option, like the D-Force LTW5? We've got plenty in stock (http://www.vorshlag.com/index.php?cPath=1_4_41) in 18x10 @ $309/each. :cool

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/187951478-S-1.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/223978776-S.jpg
Left: 265/35/18 on 18x10 LTW5 / Right: 285F/305R on 18x10 LTW5

Cheers,

looks good man. I def like the pennon kit.

Hey, I was there! Dude, you got the motor in backwards... Doh.

I have some more pictures of the build...

Sticking with the stock 5-speed E36 M3 trans. Bryan makes a good point, about durability.

Fender flares are coming from Pennon Composites. I went with this setup not to reduce weight, but beacuse they're pretty much bolt-on, no bodywork and major painting. Here are pics they sent me from Ike Neilson's car (no pics on their website)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMWflare2.jpghttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMWflare1.jpghttp://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/BMW7.jpg

real nice

Engine accesories went on yesterday, mocal oil cooler setup arrived today, and the car went to the bodyshop.

I also ordered a fuel pressue regulator/filter/guage and a crapload of of fittings for the fuel system.

Dr. Gas low profile muffler for the side exit exhaust is also on the way:http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/newbtmuffler1MAIN.jpg

looking good Max, wish I could have stuck around on Sunday.

How much does the Dr. gas setup weigh? Hopefully its a fraction of what the Boom tube setup weighed, that thing was like 1/4" thick wall lol

more pix!

Steve,

This is the street boom tube by Dr. Gas, it's smaller than the race boom tube but I bet it's still heavy. I'll let you know when I get it. Max

max,
this car is going to be a beast!! i cannot wait to see it done and on track (ie hear/see this red blur fly by me!). Oh, I'll also be joining the thunder group ;)

-Ross

Max, get cracking on it. This sucker has to be finished so I can use it for comp school.

cmon cmon i wanna see the fender flares!

It was a very productive weekend, even though I decided to hold off on the body work:

Oil cooler mounted and plumbed
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1371.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1378.jpg

E36 Coolant tank relocated
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1369.jpg

E46 M3 DME/Relay box fits perfectly in the E36!
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1366.jpg

Engine accessories roughed in:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1377.jpg

And the fun part:eek:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/IMGP1376.jpg

We got the engine to make spark, got the electronic throttle pedal working, instrument cluster up, and were able to start the engine by shooting some brake spray down the intake. Unfortunately the injectors aren't working. We had fuel pressure and supply, and the scantool showed injector pulse, but no dice. Any suggestions?

Thanks again to Dave, Steve, and Rob (our waitress) for helping!

Thanks again to Dave, Steve, and Rob (our waitress) for helping!

Waitress? I only show up for the food.

How long has the motor been sitting? Injectors are probably clogged. Tap on em, or pull and get them cleaned.

Man, that is a LOT of wires. I would have and still do strongly suggest going stand alone. You'll save time, and in the long run save money and headaches. Trying to track down an electrical gremlin in that rats nest will be painful.

Otherwise, its looking nice, whats your ETA?

Otherwise, its looking nice, whats your ETA?

First race is February 23rd! :eek:

Damn, thats soon. Goodluck, keep us posted.

First race is February 23rd! :eek:

its alright dude. I'm in the spot right now. we will make it.

he max, i got the e46 wiring diagrams now.

nice pics max! good luck getting it done, i cannot wait to see the car in person!

Last night I officially gave up on the body shop that wouldn't even call me back, and started work on the flares myself. Front fenders were a breeze, thanks to Pennon's fantastic fit. Yes, I'll get pics up soon.

This weekend, the cutting wheel comes out for the rears. :evil2

Side exhaust will hopefully get done today! Max

Looks great!

I just did these on my caddy a few months back and then sold the caddy -

Would love to go and snag the fender kit now as I'm on 285's all the way around.

Here's a snap of the caddy flares from Specter Werkes.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l78/ChefsVenom/Firebird4.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l78/ChefsVenom/Firebird3.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l78/ChefsVenom/ChefCarTrackDayPit1sig.jpg


Good eats!

Chef

Looks great!

I just did these on my caddy a few months back and then sold the caddy -

Would love to go and snag the fender kit now as I'm on 285's all the way around.

Here's a snap of the caddy flares from Specter Werkes.



http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l78/ChefsVenom/ChefCarTrackDayPit1sig.jpg


Good eats!

Chef
So what fender kit was that?

Last night I officially gave up on the body shop that wouldn't even call me back, and started work on the flares myself. Front fenders were a breeze, thanks to Pennon's fantastic fit. Yes, I'll get pics up soon.

This weekend, the cutting wheel comes out for the rears. :evil2

Side exhaust will hopefully get done today! Max

Max
What Bodyshop were you using? I know of a couple of others that might be more willing to get it done.

Here's a video of Max chopping up his fender.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPG71kBbd04

And here are some pics I took today...

Working on the passenger side fender.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2002/2207450284_70af268df9.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2115/2206661779_60e797a5c7.jpg

Starting the driver side fender.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2015/2206661141_d189341043.jpg

Very nice work max!!! good luck with rest of the work, and i cannot wait to see the car out on track

Thanks for the pics and vid Rob!

We came SO frickin' close to getting the car running today, it looks like EWS is out of alignment, should take care of that this week!

Looking good so far Max. Just an FYI for your help. With the rear fenders, I run 18x10 SSRT GT2s which are et25mm and still need a 15mm spacer to get the 280 dunlop off the inner wheel well area. Just some info if you're going with custom wheels or anything of the sorts. Should look great when the body work is done. Any pics of the front fenders hung?

you can see the front fenders in the video.:buttrock

http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/images/ear-QM24.jpg http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/glove.jpg

Awesome stuff. Where is that baller shop you're working at?

you can see the front fenders in the video.:buttrock
I snapped some pictures of the front fenders too.

Here they are:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2239/2207278525_53e92ab742.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2282/2208070788_4aa3eeafd5.jpg

Right fender roughed in.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2343/2208070546_cba4b7246a.jpg

Thanks for the pics and vid Rob!

We came SO frickin' close to getting the car running today, it looks like EWS is out of alignment, should take care of that this week!
I can't wait till u get that badboy fired up.

Looking good. Just a tip, you'll have to cut the part of the nose panel that intrudes past the front flare. With the larger tires, they will certainly hit. They did with mine.

What an awesome build, kudos to you !

http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/images/ear-QM24.jpg http://toolmonger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/glove.jpg

:cool I'm already half deaf from years of loud music and loud cars! Cutoff wheels aren't that bad, it's the grinders that'll get you permanent ringing.

In terms of gloves, a friend of mine had four fingers chopped off when his glove got caught in a sawblade and pulled his hand in with it. I'll pass, thanks!

Those fenders look great. Can't wait to see everything finished up. How high did you have to cut the fenders? 4 inches or so? I am working on a widebody right now too and I am trying to figure out the best way to cut them.

Those fenders look great. Can't wait to see everything finished up. How high did you have to cut the fenders? 4 inches or so? I am working on a widebody right now too and I am trying to figure out the best way to cut them.

which kit are you doing?

The Reiger Infinity I

did u get it running, pics of side exhaust and how it sounds if running

Thanks for the heads up on the Pennon flares. I liked this solution so much that I've ordered up a set for my car.

lookin good man.

How about some updated pictures/info already :alright

How about some updated pictures/info already :alright

+1

And I didn't know RVA had so many crazy BMW guys.

You doing the work at Delta V?

I stopped by the shop yesterday and the car is looking damn good. It's very close to being finished. I would have snapped some pics, but I didn't have my camera with me...

cmon cmon i wanna see the fender flares!
They look damn sexy in person.

THE BEAST HAS ARISEN!

I've shunned pretty much all of my work and personal responsibilties in the last week, but we finally cracked the whole EWS thing and got the car running. I'll save the details for later, and I'll be getting updated photos soon.

In the next three days I have to install the new suspension, finish the wiring, finish the brake system, figure out a cooling issue, get all of the bodywork back on, align, dyno, replace fluids, and nut & bolt the whole car. Oh yeah, also fab a custom side exhaust. Should be fun! Max

what about the engine? running without life support yet?

The engine is happilly running on the stock S54 DME and wiring. I can't wait to get it dynoed on Tuesday.

cmon cmon cmon picturessssssssss!

I was flagging #11 @ VIR, and your car sounds wicked! You need to get some new pictures up of it too :)

I was really worried when I heard that you dropped out of the Saturday race around turn 6 :(

cmon cmon cmon!

cmon cmon cmon!

+1

Sorry guys, just cartching my breat after a SERIOUS scramble to get on the track!

The car ran like a top on Sunday, although it's still way down on power. I think a DME reflash is in order. I'll get some pics and updates this week! Max

Here's a video of Max coming out of oak tree from the NASA race last week...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9X7fIlMKH8

ohhhhh, the teaser, I can tell its sexy but I want to see it up close.

Reminds me of my neighbor...

There's a pic of it close up in the following thread:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=943857

Wow, the car looks GREAT! Great work!

Is it just me or does Pennon's site really suck? I cannot even browse the BMW products on their site.

Methinks Pennon doesn't exactly do much in the way of "internet sales". They are fabricators of (mostly custom) parts, not a parts warehouse.

The car looks GREAT Max!
http://www.nceuromotorsports.com/gallery2/d/4234-1/Max.jpg
-Ted

Thanks, and that's with the Pennon parts just slapped on. In fact, the gelcoat is so good, I might just spray the fenders red and leave the lares front and rear natural.

New suspension goes on today, hopefully I get my DME back tomorrow, and then testing at VIR next week.

Looks Great! Enkei's look awesome too.

What suspension?

looks sweet... we bought the Pennon kit right after you and had the same thoughts... excellent fit and finish for fiberglass. We are back in the body shop having more rear fender removed (we did not take enough off the first time and then off for the new motor.

I like your wheels, I think we finally decided on custom 18X9.5 (F) and 18X11 (R) so we can get the right offset and not need big spacers. I was able to sell all the 18X9 SSRs so I need to get moving on the new wheels.

I will get a thread started soon of our winter rebuild as well.

Vince

Awesome job Max, the car looks so much better than I even hoped. Can't wait for my Pennon flares to show now, thanks again for hipping me to them.
What size wheel and tire did you end up with? I gotta get going on that end of the project now..
Steve E

I believe they are the same as what we are running on our e46's and that Jaffe got for his e46.

Enkei NT03+M 18x10 et25. You can run up to the 280 slick on this wheel. Available from two CR sponsors (us and TireRack).

Thanks
Brad

I believe they are the same as what we are running on our e46's and that Jaffe got for his e46.

Enkei NT03+M 18x10 et25. You can run up to the 280 slick on this wheel. Available from two CR sponsors (us and TireRack).

Thanks
Brad

Thanks Brad,
Steve E.

looking good Max! Hope to see you next month at VIR :buttrock

yep, the car looks awesome. A good friend of mine (Hi TYE) is the one that worked with Ike to get Pennon to do those! We all owe him big as this is a great kit!

thanks
brad

Yep, this was 3 years ago I contacted Ike Nielsen about taking his car in to get a mold made so I could get this kit. He did it, but I ended up never buying the kit as I decided to stop modding my car and save for something newer. Im glad you guys are enjoying it, and man it tempts me to still do it every time i see a pic of it, and thorw on some black enkei's since i cant get forgeline comps anymore.

Thanks for all of the compliments!

Yes, the wheels are Enkei 18.10's all around, as per Steve J's recommendation.

The Pennon parts are great, as is their customoer service. I had a slight issue and they took care of it no questions asked.

Steve, I just bolted on AST/Vorshlag 4200's today. I hope to test and tune next week at VIR, I'll give a full report!

BTW, a big thanks to Bimmerworld and James Clay for a bunch of support, I'll fill everyone in on that when the time comes.

And of course my local shop, Delta V Motorsports in Richmond, VA. Max

Time for a new sig :)

AST look pretty decent, you should not have much trouble getting them setup.


What spring rates did you go with?

Great work Max, what size rubber do you have on there?

750lb Front, 950 rear. Hope to switch over to rear coilovers soon.

Of course I couldn't find tires available in the size I wanted , so right now I'm on 285/30/18. I think 275s will be ideal.

Are you using slicks?

Not as of now...BFG R1's

Maxx,

Why not slicks? Faster, last longer in a race (more consistent), generally more heat cycles and about the same cost?

thanks
Brad

Max,

Did you just basically cut the sideskirt right where it meets the flare, as I know the front fender/flare are one piece. How did you attach the sideskirt at that cut point?

Did you reinforce the rear flare attachment on the bumper at all?

Also, you say 285s may be a bit much? Are you having any rubbing issues, I know Ike runs 250s front and 280s rear in slicks, so Im curious as to why you are having problems with non slicks 285s.

Why not slicks? Faster, last longer in a race (more consistent), generally more heat cycles and about the same cost?

I believe he races NASA GTS...you take a significant weight penalty for running slicks.

Not as of now...BFG R1's
... and, how you like? Compared to hoosiers?

Max,

I noticed your front splitter from another post and thought I'd pass along an idea I used on my old ITS/JP e36 325i... to get my splitter closer to the ground, I cut a piece of styrofoam (sp?) insulation (I bought from Home Depot - in their racing dept) to match the outline of the bumper lip and sandwiched that between my splitter and the bottom of my bumper cover.

The styrofoam is very strong and very light. You can cover the exposed styrofoam with alum flashing or even vinyl base board molding glued on.

Vince

Update:

I'm down but not out. I'm also about to be broke.:(

At VIR this weekend the car was in limp, and I pulled a code for a bad throttle pedal sensor (remember I'm using stock DME with stock throttle by wire). I f-ed with the pedal, checked connections, etc. The car wouldn't idle for crap either. I tried starting it over and over, and after a while, the throttle pedal wouldn't even move the throttle bodies. The TBs did their self-test at start-up, so I knew it wasn't the throttle motor. James C. was helpful in trying to dignose, and he said that the pedals went bad often.

Delta V motorsports graciously delivered a new pedal to me at VIR, but it did nothing either. I parked it, and yesterday my mechanic spent the whole day with it. All the wiring was fine, and there was almost zero chance that I had two bad pedals. I think I fried the DME trying to start it over and over. It's power was temporarily connected directly to the battery cutoff, and I had to "hot stab" it to reset the computer every time it died. Also, the idle control valve was no longer responding, so something was going on with the electronics.

So I'm giving up on the stock engine management option, and to everyone that said to go with standalone as it will be cheaper and less headaches in the longrun: you were right!:cool

Talked with James from RRT yesterday, he's going to install the Autronic SM4, delete the VANOS, delete the throttle-by wire, delete the mass air sensor, delete the idle control valve, delete EWS...(all are PITA, sensitive items, so that's good!) Automatically runs the fuel pump and cooling fan, too.

I'll be soooooo broke after this. But I've spent 4 days at VIR in the past 2 weeks, and only driven a total of 35 minutes, and that's a waste of $$$ too.(well fortunately 20 of those were a points race!),

I'll keep everyone updated on the progress! Max

good luck with all that. i know the guys at RRT are good.

Thanks Dave, and thanks for your help this past weekend!

Sorry the throttle sensor didn't work, I was hoping that would be a quick fix. I smoked a head gasket on Monday and got about 60 minutes for the 4 days as well! Let's hope it works better for us next time.

welcome to the dark side. lets see who car runs first. haha.

Update:

I'm down but not out. I'm also about to be broke.:(

At VIR this weekend the car was in limp, and I pulled a code for a bad throttle pedal sensor (remember I'm using stock DME with stock throttle by wire). I f-ed with the pedal, checked connections, etc. The car wouldn't idle for crap either. I tried starting it over and over, and after a while, the throttle pedal wouldn't even move the throttle bodies. The TBs did their self-test at start-up, so I knew it wasn't the throttle motor. James C. was helpful in trying to dignose, and he said that the pedals went bad often.

Delta V motorsports graciously delivered a new pedal to me at VIR, but it did nothing either. I parked it, and yesterday my mechanic spent the whole day with it. All the wiring was fine, and there was almost zero chance that I had two bad pedals. I think I fried the DME trying to start it over and over. It's power was temporarily connected directly to the battery cutoff, and I had to "hot stab" it to reset the computer every time it died. Also, the idle control valve was no longer responding, so something was going on with the electronics.

So I'm giving up on the stock engine management option, and to everyone that said to go with standalone as it will be cheaper and less headaches in the longrun: you were right!:cool

Talked with James from RRT yesterday, he's going to install the Autronic SM4, delete the VANOS, delete the throttle-by wire, delete the mass air sensor, delete the idle control valve, delete EWS...(all are PITA, sensitive items, so that's good!) Automatically runs the fuel pump and cooling fan, too.

I'll be soooooo broke after this. But I've spent 4 days at VIR in the past 2 weeks, and only driven a total of 35 minutes, and that's a waste of $$$ too.(well fortunately 20 of those were a points race!),

I'll keep everyone updated on the progress! Max

Oh my ** God. I'm sick to my stomach...

RRT did everything in their power to get my car ready for the BMWCCA race. They installed the Autronic, fabbed up a beautiful exhaust, a new intake, installed VANOS delete kit, but the stars just weren't aligned to have it ready for last weekend's race.

So last Saturday I picked up the car from RRT. I was going to be instructing at an Audi Club event Monday and Tuesday at VIR, and it was a perfect opportunity to shake the car down. It would be the first time really running this engine, and the first time running with the new AST suspension and Alcon brake setup. I was excited.

Monday was pretty much a rainout. I went out for a total of maybe 30 minutes, and kept it REAL slow since pretty much every system in the car was new, and it was wet.

Tuesday was much better, first session I went out and got a feel for the car in the dry. Pulled it back in, made some suspension adjustments, and then went out for my second session. As I came to the top of the back straight during the warmup lap, I suddenly lost all power and saw a puff of blue smoke from under my hood. Next thing I see is a wrist pin shoot out from under my car. Then, as I hit the 9-quart oil slick I just created, I go into a spin, and I'm heading down the track sideways as my buddy Rob is coming right at me in his GT3. He takes to the grass, and sacrifices his splitter and brake duct to avoid the collision.

That was the good news...

After the black flag came out and I was waiting for the tow truck, I popped open the hood. A hole in the block about the size of my fist is staring at me, showing me cylinder #6. I laughed.

Then I cried (not really, but I wanted to). Then I got pissed. Yes, I really just watched thousands of dollars go "poof" in a cloud of blue smoke.

So now the car is sitting on the trailer, under cover, for the past few days, as my stomach sours at the thought of even looking at it. I am not happy that I did everything right, bought all new parts, spent TONS on labor, and my engine lasted less than two hours (BTW, RRT did not rebuild the engine).

So now what? Either way I'm going to have to sell my E30 M3 (which I said I would never sell) to get through this. :( But I've narrowed it down to two options:

#1: Buy another S54 and put it in the car, so that everything is just as it was a week ago ($8K-$10K for used engine, bottom end refreshing, and tuning). Then I still have to shake everything down and develop the car over the rest of the season.

#2 Part out the car, keep all of the safety stuff, and buy an E46 M3. Refresh the bottom end, gut it, put a cage in it, and add a suspension and 4.10 gearing. Keep it simple. Get a few races in at the end of the season in GTS-3. Develop the car in the off season (and as $$ allows) into a GTS-4/C-Mod car.

Used E46 M3s are selling for less than $20K, and I know I can easily get $5K back from parting out the interior, ICE, etc. If I part out my car, I know I can get out of the hole. It's got a BRAND NEW suspension, Alcons, widebody kit, a killer cage, a freshly built diff... So consider this a feeler. I'll officially post it in the "Race/Track" for sale section if I decide to do this.

Am I crazy? Any advice is appreciated! Max

Option #3 Part out car as in #2 but buy/build a SpecE30, pocket all of the extra cash, and race with 25 other cars at each event! Plus, you get to keep the E30 M3.

Sorry for the loss though, I know you've got a lot of time and money tied up in that thing.

Damn Max, I didnt know what to say to you during all that. Hopefully all ill work out for you.

You could also buy another E36 M3 cheap ;)

Max,

I noticed your front splitter from another post and thought I'd pass along an idea I used on my old ITS/JP e36 325i... to get my splitter closer to the ground, I cut a piece of styrofoam (sp?) insulation (I bought from Home Depot - in their racing dept) to match the outline of the bumper lip and sandwiched that between my splitter and the bottom of my bumper cover.

The styrofoam is very strong and very light. You can cover the exposed styrofoam with alum flashing or even vinyl base board molding glued on.

Vince

The Max Velocity lip from Bimmerworld achieves the same function, I believe.

Why did it blow up?

Oh man, I know the feeling of having a motor let go on you right after rebuilding/building. I had that happen on my first E30 when I rebuilt the head. (long story short, a valve let go and destroyed a piston)
Sucks, big time. Good luck with whatever way you go with it.

You can get an E46 M3 fresh water floor car for $16-18k, and it sounds like you're going CM, so you can sell EVERYTHING on the car, meaning you can get back $8-10k. It takes some time to sell everything, but there are people looking for everything. That $8-10k does not include ANY of the drivetrain, or suspension, or front seats. My fresh water flood car paid for itself after I sold the engine, and i got the entire drivetrain/suspension/front seats left. I think its the way to go for sure if you want to go through building another car...I doubt you can get it together for much of this season...rushing a build usually means more $. If you do go with an E46 M3, get a 2003+ as it has the ABS you can retrofit to be stand alone (I made the mistake and got a 6/02 prod date thinking it was the right one but it was not).

IMO if you want to just get the car dialed in and racing, use your autronic on a very basic S50/S52 and go racing with that. Dial the car in and when the time comes, sell the motor and drop in whatever you want (S54, turbo m50, etc).

The other option is to build a semi tube frame E30 with a turbo m42 :)

So sorry to hear!!

I am convinced that the S54's are wonderful, wonderful motors that are just a bit too finicky and fragile. They are very similar to an S14 in that regard.

You have the chassis. You won't get much for it if you try and sell it without motor. So - I would say put another motor in it and go race after selling whatever you have to sell to do that.

While the E46 is nice, the E36 is very capable.

Giddyup to that! Exactly why I sold my S54 to do the turbo M50 :)

I'd say, for the sake of just getting out there and racing, drop an S50/S52 in there, you can get decent power to at the least get the car setup this season.

holy crap. so sorry to hear about that man. My vote is for the S50/52 route. It should be quick and reasonably cheap. I have most of an S50 i'll sell ya cheap. So sorry dude. Hey at least your car made it to the track.

Euro S50?? If the head is sellable off the S54, that should get you some dough. Got anything to sell me, that could get you some more dough!

I am convinced that the S54's are wonderful, wonderful motors that are just a bit too finicky and fragile. They are very similar to an S14 in that regard.

Finicky and fragile? How so?

I have nothing but praise for the S54 as a race motor to this point.

Finicky and fragile? How so?

I have nothing but praise for the S54 as a race motor to this point.

My experience is that all the really expensive inside pieces are contantly trying to get outside! Seriously, I love the motor also for the power and amazing linearity of it. And I never had a problem (over 2 seasons of racing) with the bottom end once we built it with an evosport bearing solution and stronger rods. I know I popped three of them when they were stock bottom ends and that's what led me to my description of fragile.

hey max!
heartbraker to hear about your weekend! I'd hate to see you sell your car, it seems like you are being a bit hasty with the situation, let your mind clear up over the next week or so! I'll drive down for a weekend and help you work on it if it will help you keep it!

Good luck with whatever decisions you make, and find a way to keep the e30 m3 too

hey max!
heartbraker to hear about your weekend! I'd hate to see you sell your car, it seems like you are being a bit hasty with the situation, let your mind clear up over the next week or so! I'll drive down for a weekend and help you work on it if it will help you keep it!

Good luck with whatever decisions you make, and find a way to keep the e30 m3 too

+1
see if you can sell anything off the s54 motor. then put something cheap in there, like an s52, stock. you've seen what a stock 3.0 can do with a light car.

My experience is that all the really expensive inside pieces are contantly trying to get outside! Seriously, I love the motor also for the power and amazing linearity of it. And I never had a problem (over 2 seasons of racing) with the bottom end once we built it with an evosport bearing solution and stronger rods. I know I popped three of them when they were stock bottom ends and that's what led me to my description of fragile.

Fair enough...then again, I'm not aware of any bone stock 3+ liter 6-cylinder motors that will stand up to 8200+ RPM in a race environment.

Fair enough...then again, I'm not aware of any bone stock 3+ liter 6-cylinder motors that will stand up to 8200+ RPM in a race environment.

Yes, agreed - in my ignorance, I was probably expecting too much.

Its all about area under the curve.

Max,

sorry to read about your misfortune. Frustrating to say the least. Let the car sit while you clear your head. You have a few options available.

Personally I think you should stick with the e36 as you know the car intimately and have invested a lot of personal energy and obviously money into it. All it needs is a motor. You still have your S50?

Thanks everyone for the encouragement.

I spent all weekend drooling at sub-$20K E46 M3s, but in the back of my mind I knew it would cost a fortune to start all over again. So unless my car emits any more bad ju-ju in the next few days, it'll be another S54.

Next step is an autopsy to see if my head is OK. If it is, I'm going to just buy a stock, complete bottom end straight from BMW ($4200). If the head was damaged, we'll have to rebuild a complete engine. I wish I could afford an Evosport bottom end and be done with it, but there is just no way.

Hopefully I can get it running, test it at a DE or two (I still have to dial in the new suspension, brakes, etc.), and race it at Hyperfest. Getting the fenders painted is also on the list!

Max

If it is, I'm going to just buy a stock, complete bottom end straight from BMW ($4200). If the head was damaged, we'll have to rebuild a complete engine. I wish I could afford an Evosport bottom end and be done with it, but there is just no way.


Max,

I wish you the best of luck, but I can't recommend a stock BMW bottom end. I popped 3 of them - so there's $12k in bottom ends - and when I popped one of them, I exited the track at 155mph doing about $36k worth of other damage to my car.

I also can't say "just keep it under 7000 rpm and you will be fine," as I popped on at Miller Motorsports Park, during a warm-up lap going 5/10ths. This was after a 14 hour tow to get to the track and all the expenses associated.

I hate to be a bearer of bad juju, but add up all the expenses of a popped bottom end and a properly built one is cheap.

Jon,

Uggggh, that sucks. Holy crap, now what do I do? I can't swing $12K for a bottom end, not even close.

Hmmm, the world challenge cars ran stock internals...

I'm also planning on an 8K redline and VERY conservative tuning. Any idea why they blew?

Should I be considering a turbo M50? :D

Jon,

Uggggh, that sucks. Holy crap, now what do I do? I can't swing $12K for a bottom end, not even close.

Hmmm, the world challenge cars ran stock internals...

I'm also planning on an 8K redline and VERY conservative tuning. Any idea why they blew?

Should I be considering a turbo M50? :D

No S54's run in WC.

I really think the Jaffe build (stock M52 w/small turbo) might be the best bang for the buck, but it will cost about the same probably as a built bottom end.

The bearings are the main reason the BMW's blow. The stock bearings suck. They Motorsport bearings suck less and the evosport bearing solution works. Pitson speed is the killer of motors and that is directly related to RPM. So, RPM limiting is about all you can do - and hope that my one low rpm failure was just a fluke.

If you do run a stock bottom end, I would run no higher than 7250 or 7500. Time the cams so you get lots of bottom end torque and go from there. But really - if you think about it - if you blow another bottom end, there will go $8k. For a little more, you could have had something with a more proven track record.

I know it's alot of money - but there always seems like there is never enough money to do it right the first time, but always enough money to do it over again.

We have an engine here with about 20k track miles with our relatively cheap bearing solution in it. We will probably start marketing it soon, but there is no overwhelming reason to spend huge money - the sky is not falling.

We have an engine here with about 20k track miles with our relatively cheap bearing solution in it. We will probably start marketing it soon, but there is no overwhelming reason to spend huge money - the sky is not falling.

Does it use stock rods? I am glad to hear you have had long term success with this solution!!!

Does it use stock rods? I am glad to hear you have had long term success with this solution!!!

Yes - stock rods so the expense is pretty minimal. We do ARP rod bolts while we are there - only makes sense I think. There are others out there with these bearings, but this is the most used example.

There are also many E46 M3's with 100% stock engines running many track miles and many hard road miles (Canyon style i guess they call it). I think its a lot of things that add up to the motors popping. It seems even the moons alignment could cause it to pop prematurely. But for strictly a race car, it might be worth it to invest in the cheapest proven solution. And of course it will come down to tuning and how you drive it. Tuning is still the #1 cause in my book on engine's prematurely expiring (that are on stand alone).

If my relatively basic VERY low PSI turbo m50 doesn't work out, a built M42 turbo might be the next step :)

. Tuning is still the #1 cause in my book on engine's prematurely expiring (that are on stand alone).

:handclap


AAAAHHHHH someone gets it!

Max- Crappy luck, sorry to hear it. I'd pick up another stock S54, shift at 7500rpm to be extra careful, and do a bearing upgrade at the end of this season after your wallet heals. If money allows now, do the BW bearings for cheap.

Tuning is still the #1 cause in my book on engine's prematurely expiring (that are on stand alone).


Tuning is definately a contributing factor, but I also believe that the S54 has a deservedly bad reputation. With BMW doign 3 seperate recalls on the motors and giving them a 100k mile warranty to appease the owners.

Also, driving style is a huge factor. Forced downshifts are also a big contributor to poor longevity.

Tuning is definately a contributing factor, but I also believe that the S54 has a deservedly bad reputation. With BMW doign 3 seperate recalls on the motors and giving them a 100k mile warranty to appease the owners.

Also, driving style is a huge factor. Forced downshifts are also a big contributor to poor longevity.

Hehe, yea I did not want to explicitly say it, but some drivers just drive them "too hard," or in a manner they are not setup for. Same pretty much goes for all motors. You can only push it as far as it was built to handle.

Small mistakes seem to add up quickly with the S54 (And euro s50 i guess too). This is another reason I decided to go turbo m50. M50 is still more readily available and cheaper to build for my needs. Its not bullet proof, but with my rev limiter at hard at 7000...its not that high, and with such little boost, i feel safer running it than even the most basic of S54's. But thats just me :)

Hehe, yea I did not want to explicitly say it, but some drivers just drive them "too hard," or in a manner they are not setup for. Same pretty much goes for all motors. You can only push it as far as it was built to handle.

Yes, yes. I am working hard at being easier on equipment!! :)

FYI - Max and Steve, I run a 2.8 liter Turbo M52 and have a hard 7100 rpm limit on the current motor. It makes 550whp at 10 psi boost. I ran it at Willow Springs on Friday last week in 85 degree weather and couldn't get the water or oil temp over 190. Now, I am not saying this is a cheap motor - but it might be an alternative at some point.

Also, driving style is a huge factor. Forced downshifts are also a big contributor to poor longevity.

Can we please seperate out overrevs from the discussion?

I know multiple folks who have 1000's of track miles on even bone stock S54's that have managed not to pop their motors. Did the original S54's have some bearing problems? Sure. Has BMW taken care of it? It appears so. Is it smart to spend a little money to add some additional strength to the bottom end? Absolutely. Is the motor a bad motor? NO. It's a better motor than the S50B32's that have been all of the rage until recently and it's certainly a much better motor than the US S50/S52.

No S54's run in WC.

He said "ran" in World Challenge, as in past tense. :stickoutt PTG most definitely ran the S54 in World Challenge, bumped up to 3.4 liters IIRC.

Can we please seperate out overrevs from the discussion?

I know multiple folks who have 1000's of track miles on even bone stock S54's that have managed not to pop their motors. Did the original S54's have some bearing problems? Sure. Has BMW taken care of it? It appears so. Is it smart to spend a little money to add some additional strength to the bottom end? Absolutely. Is the motor a bad motor? NO. It's a better motor than the S50B32's that have been all of the rage until recently and it's certainly a much better motor than the US S50/S52.

Wow Bryan - your long absence from the track has given you time to become pensive and wise. Nice work!

He said "ran" in World Challenge, as in past tense. :stickoutt PTG most definitely ran the S54 in World Challenge, bumped up to 3.4 liters IIRC.

Yes, you are correct. And the 3.4 liter S54's are in no way comparable to a stock motor. In fact they were rebuilt after each race. The rod angle these motors have simply causes extreme wear on the side of the piston requiring youto replace them very often. Not really a viable alternative for a club racer.

Stickley runs his 3.4L in club racing without rebuilding more than once a season.

Can we please seperate out overrevs from the discussion?

I know multiple folks who have 1000's of track miles on even bone stock S54's that have managed not to pop their motors. Did the original S54's have some bearing problems? Sure. Has BMW taken care of it? It appears so. Is it smart to spend a little money to add some additional strength to the bottom end? Absolutely. Is the motor a bad motor? NO. It's a better motor than the S50B32's that have been all of the rage until recently and it's certainly a much better motor than the US S50/S52.

Well, in all three of my motor failures with stock bottom ends, a mechanical over-rev did not play a factor. Believe me when I say the data proves that. So -I stand by my statement - and I have the money spent to prove it - I wouldn't race a stock bottom end S54 without rpm limiting it and/or changing out the BMW supplied bearings and having the bearings setup by someone who knows what they are doing.

Stickley runs his 3.4L in club racing without rebuilding more than once a season.

I don't believe that. And I have information to the contrary. But I am done arguing.

Maybe we have a difference in opinion what a "season" is. To me a season is 10 to 12 race weekends. I guess if you are only racing 3 to 4 times a year you may be able to get away with it for a "season".

But I am done arguing.


:stickoutt Arguing versus discussing is just a matter of perspective I guess. Just because I don't always see it your way Jon doesn't mean I am arguing.

Just to interject/break up the fight...:cool

I am a total granny when it comes to babying my car. Especially because this was a new engine (and pretty much a new car for that matter). I believe it had to do with the rebuild, as the engine had a nasty low-rpm vibration (I thought it was the hard-mounted exhaust that was causing it, but I was wrong). I used new rods, pistons, rings, VAC rod and main bearings, etc...

$8K is a ton of money to me. If I have to set the rev limiter at 7500, so be it. But I agree with Bryan, there are a ton of E46 M3s running full-bore at DE's, usually 2 hours of track time a day. You don't see them pop very often.

:stickoutt Arguing versus discussing is just a matter of perspective I guess. Just because I don't always see it your way Jon doesn't mean I am arguing.

Bad choice of words on my part. I should have said, my experience does not support the same conclusion as you or Bryan have - apparently Bryan thinks a stock S54 is fine. And you think a stock S54 with your bearings is fine.

I have no experience with your bearings, so I can't make a conclusion. I do have experience with stock S54s in a non-over-rev failure situation (3 times) and conclude that a stock bottom end is not up to racing. I think it is fine on the street - just not in a racing environment.

No harm - no foul James!

apparently Bryan thinks a stock S54 is fine.

:confused I do?

Fair enough...then again, I'm not aware of any bone stock 3+ liter 6-cylinder motors that will stand up to 8200+ RPM in a race environment.

Is it smart to spend a little money to add some additional strength to the bottom end? Absolutely.

:confused I do?

Now I am totally confused - and I don't have time to go back and reread the post to figure out my confusion.

Apologies to all.

Yes, you are correct. And the 3.4 liter S54's are in no way comparable to a stock motor. In fact they were rebuilt after each race. The rod angle these motors have simply causes extreme wear on the side of the piston requiring youto replace them very often. Not really a viable alternative for a club racer.

On the BMWCCA Tour of PTG in 2004 or 2005, Tom Milner told the entire group that they only rebuilt 1 of the S54's they were running over the season. Maybe he was just talking up the motor for BMW, but I don't see a reason for him to do that...

but I don't see a reason for him to do that...

Rule 1 of racing - make the sponsor happy!!!!

Rule 1 of racing - make the sponsor happy!!!!
I meant as in a reason to lie to us all. He could have said that they were race motors and needed the rebuild, etc.

On the BMWCCA Tour of PTG in 2004 or 2005, Tom Milner told the entire group that they only rebuilt 1 of the S54's they were running over the season. Maybe he was just talking up the motor for BMW, but I don't see a reason for him to do that...

That was for the World Challenge cars I believe.

I meant as in a reason to lie to us all. He could have said that they were race motors and needed the rebuild, etc.

See rule 1... Racers don't lie and cheat, they stretch the truth and push the limits. The back end of a race team isn't always what is presented to the public.

I don't think Chuck is a once a year kinda guy. He'll admit to that I'm pretty sure. But I KNOW he can build them a little gentler and only lose a little power. We'll all know pretty soon cuz there is like 6 CM cars coming with them.:(

having the bearings setup by someone who knows what they are doing.


Another VERY important factor….

I don't think Chuck is a once a year kinda guy. He'll admit to that I'm pretty sure. But I KNOW he can build them a little gentler and only lose a little power. We'll all know pretty soon cuz there is like 6 CM cars coming with them.:(

Yup, hi guys...

Steve E.

Another VERY important factor….


I am not reading the whole thread and can't take the time right now (sorry) but something I have seen before is using a coated bearing and then having tolerance issues due to coating thickness. What bearing were you using?

James,

I had the VAC Motorsports rod and main bearings. Yes, they're coated.

Are the Motorsports bearings coated, or are they made of a different material?

No idea on the VAC - we never used them, but worth measuring up - should always be done when installing.

MS - not coated and yes, they are a different type of bearing.

A word of warning about bearings:

I ordered a set of coated STOCK (OEM) BMW bearings for an M54 build from a well known vendor.

I recieved a set of coated bearings that looked different from the stock ones that I removed. Most notable was a single piece thrust bearing, where the stock (OEM) one is a multipiece unit.

Upon assembly, the crank was really "tight". I enquired about the thickness of the coating applied, and was told it shouldn't be an issue, as it is only a few microns thick. The clearance measured on the main caps was 15 thousandths or less.

I ended up having to have the crank journals machined/polished to achieve a clearance of between 25-30 thousandths.

I thought that by ordering OEM bearings, I would avoid the hassle of clearancing.

In retrospect, it appears that I was supplied with a non-OEM bearing package which did not fall withing OEM tolerances. (I'm pretty sure BMW doesn't clearance every crank on the assembly line.) I'm very happy that the clearance issue was caught by the mechanic helping me with the engine rebuild.

After this experience, I would recommend that all crank/bearing clearances are checked and meet the required tolerance, even BMW Motorsport bearings.

UPDATE:

This just keeps getting better. So upon inspection, all of the rods are fine, all of the rod bearings are fine. It looks like the circlip holding the wrist pin fell off, and piston #6 simply shattered.

What's a circlip, a $.50 part? :mad

BTW, these were BRAND NEW piston/rod/ring assemblies.

When the piston shattered, it destroyed the head, so I'm in for a complete, new engine. All because of that little circlip. Someone's out to get me. Grrrrr.....

:(
I'm sorry man, that sucks.

UPDATE:

This just keeps getting better. So upon inspection, all of the rods are fine, all of the rod bearings are fine. It looks like the circlip holding the wrist pin fell off, and piston #6 simply shattered.

What's a circlip, a $.50 part? :mad

BTW, these were BRAND NEW piston/rod/ring assemblies.

When the piston shattered, it destroyed the head, so I'm in for a complete, new engine. All because of that little circlip. Someone's out to get me. Grrrrr.....

Was this something preventable? or just a circlip that broke/failed?? I dunno how they are setup, but a circlip shouldnt just fall off right???

DOH!!!!!

Maxxfish - that really sucks. So sorry. I can give you lots of info on bearings, engine life, etc. Way too busy now to go into it on the forum (just got back from vacation and bimmerfest this weekend), but I did send you a PM.

I will tell you that Holder is basically right. A RACE S54 (different then a track school or DE S54) will most likely not last very long. Lots of variables of course. I have seen stock motors go 10,000+ miles in HP cars and 1 go as little as 200 miles in a HP car. The problem is the variance from BMW. Do you want to take that chance? Holder did once and it cost him about 40K in repairs to his car after a crash when the motor blew at 150mph.

So the question is - what is cheaper? Spending a little more up front to get something strong or risking it and maybe having to write off your car if the motor goes and you crash.

There is also a lot of misinformation out there about these motors. In fact one prominent east coast builder of BMW race motors (including some well known WC cars) called this week to ask about our "bearing solution" for these motors. I would suggest anyone building one speak not only to the shops - but to their customers with S54 builds.

Thanks
brad

WOW Brad is that your idea of being discrete?

Since we are beating around the bush here, let me beat the bush and see what comes out. There is a particular CM car that has an AEM and “built” engine from a certain west coast tuner. I have spoken to the car owner on multiple occasions in person, phone, email etc, as he is unhappy with the performance of his package… Something about a stock motor using a factory ECU pulling him everywhere.

WOW Brad is that your idea of being discrete?

Since we are beating around the bush here, let me beat the bush and see what comes out. There is a particular CM car that has an AEM and “built” engine from a certain west coast tuner. I have spoken to the car owner on multiple occasions in person, phone, email etc, as he is unhappy with the performance of his package… Something about a stock motor using a factory ECU pulling him everywhere.

LOL - drama. Sounds like high school.

I would say that I never had an issue with power with my Evosport S54. Locked vanos and everything. Amazing linear power everywhere. I'm not sure if perhaps my choice of using a 4.45 gearset and a 6 speed makes any difference between my setup and the Watt's setup? My motor was as powerful as Tom MIlle rand Scott Smith who both went to the East Coast and were very competitive out there. Go figure.

WOW Brad is that your idea of being discrete?

Since we are beating around the bush here, let me beat the bush and see what comes out. There is a particular CM car that has an AEM and “built” engine from a certain west coast tuner. I have spoken to the car owner on multiple occasions in person, phone, email etc, as he is unhappy with the performance of his package… Something about a stock motor using a factory ECU pulling him everywhere.
First of all Randy, since you have a history of aggression, anger and attitude - I will not reply more then once.

I am not even sure where you are coming from or your motivation, but oh well, maybe you skipped your meds today?

There was nothing discreet about my post. I posted some information that is helpful to anyone. I also offered Maxx an s54 core in a PM that I can let go at a very low price. Hardly any conspiracy or BS as you would assume. I guess it proves that nothing good goes unpunished.

Well Randy, I have spoken to Andy and James on multiple occasions and have heard a very different story. However, I have heard that they have had some mechanical and tunning issues with the car. Nothing related to the AEM or the strength of the motor. Maybe they are unhappy with the tuner not the builder. If Andy or James (who installed the motor and looks after the car) were not happy, why would they not say anything to me or our engineers on any of the many conversations that we have had? Even more, why would RRT continue to send motors to us if they were not happy? Puzzling questions, aren't they? Don't overwork your brain - the answer is pretty easy for most to see.

I am also sure that you know that the Watts ordered a MILD motor with ZERO head work, stock cams, no porting, etc. Just a stock S54 with a beefed up bottom end. You knew that right? Because your post comes across like you know everything about the situation, so I am just assuming that you really do know what you are talking about.

Last time I checked, RRT posted the dyno numbers and they were exactly on the high side number of what they should expect (which is ~360whp).

Thanks for your post, it was truly helpful to someone I am sure (although I cannot for the life of me figure out who?)

thanks
Brad

:eatpop:

Hell, this is my thread and even I'm enjoying this banter!

Actually, I originally ran the stock ECU setup AND I've run standalone, so I'm one of the few that can comment on both. Then again, my car only ran for 30 minutes with the stock DME until it crapped out, then it only ran 30 minutes with the Autronic until the engine blew, so I dont have much real world experience with either! :cool

Lets just all agree that there are a million ways to achieve the same goal. We all want cheap, reliable, and powerful cars. It ain't gonna happen. I tried to be cheap and reliable with the stock ECU, it ended up being neither (I'm not going to get into it). Then I tried to be powerful and reliable with the Autronic, and I wasn't able to get that far (no fault of the Autronic).

My next step? Dropping in a stock S54 with 16K miles with the Autronic and just driving it. It may blow up after an hour, or it may last all season. But right now I'm focused on "cheap." Reliable and powerful can come later.

Good luck Maxx.

I think you would do yourself a world of good to replace the bearings with the right spec. It is only a day of labor. Should not be more then $1000-1500 to do it right.

Regardless, I hope you get a break and it lasts a good long time!!!!!

thanks
brad

Randy is referring to Steve Bassen's 200+lb lighter E30 M3 with stock S54 and upgraded software on original Siemens engine computer. Steve significantly pulled Andy ONLY out of Oak Tree, the slowest turn on the track leading to the long back straight, where Steve's lower weight and better midrange from working VANOS allowed him to pull 4-6 car lengths on Andy. He did the same on our E46/Euro S50B32 combo as well (we're 100lbs lighter than Andy), but was unable to pull coming out of any of the other higher speed turns where both Andy's car and ours were in a suitable torque band.

I guarantee that 90% of the engine issue was related to old spark plugs that were replaced with a lower cost, but available in a hurry, Denso Iridium plug. I did not check Andy's plugs in time nor did I order new NGK racing plugs before the race weekend, so that is my fault. Brad's advice after I told him that was to ALWAYS have a spare set. The S54 with high compression seems to be a very hard engine to fire compared to many others. The AEM tuning has been a bit of a challenge due to our unfamiliarity with the system and the changing weather conditions. If we were to put on a baro sensor and continue tweaking the compensations, I'm sure it would be a lot better. The intake air temp sensor crapped out, but we did get a new one on there before Saturday's race. I also tried pulling some timing from those problem areas where the engine was exhibiting an audible (from the trackside) stumble - midrange RPMs right after an upshift. We were all a bit busy trying to get me into my first Club Race (shared with Eric Wong), trying to work around the engine stumble issue, and our own E46 CMod car going after finally finding the source of a bad fuel leak (tank sender seal). I'm also not a professional engine tuner, only applying what Gary at evosport, our own engine tuner down the street, and books teach me.

Overall I'm very confident and extremely pleased with the evosport build. I tell everyone that will listen that it's simply an S54 with compression and headers, and the bottom end has been custom-worked by evosport to reduce friction (that black-art of engine building) and handle 9000+ RPMs. The last oil analysis came back two weeks ago with flying colors - no significant wear on anything. (As an aside, I can't say the same about our S50Euro with parts not sourced by evosport and block work done at another shop.) Without dry sump, without cams, without further cam timing changes and tweaking (I set cam timing once and have never touched it since I put the top end on the motor), running very conservative AFRs to keep combustion and exhaust temps down, and with only an 8k RPM rev limit and power peak at 7800, it puts down an honest 324 RWHP on a Dyno Dynamics load-brake dyno. This is similar to 360-375RWHP on a Dynojet 248c. Crankcase vacuum via dry sump will push power levels and max revs easily, so count on 350+RWHP with further development. Where is that further development? Well, budgets constrain certain things, and my labor, dry sumps, and dyno time cost a lot of money. Higher revs and leaner AFRs mean more power but reduced durability. Andy's not interested in an engine that needs a teardown every season. Lean AFRs seem to be where everyone wants to get more power, but the cost of an S54 exhaust valve is astronomical.

Not to take away from James Clay's performance in the E30 M3/S54, but he did go out in Friday's sprint race on Bassen's $1800 sticker Dunlops to get the 2:00.126 laptime. It was still the fastest all weekend by the BMWs, so congratulations. He's a helluva driver, and Steve's car is very well set up by the BW crew. I think Barry's and Andy's fastest race laps were a full second slower. Andy's 1:59.9xx lap was at a Redline Time Attack in September '07 on used Pirelli slicks, but he was still thoroughly trounced by a Mitsu Evo-8 on sticker Hoosiers at 1:57.xxx.

And just to set the record straight, Max Fischer's shop that did the S54 build (mostly stock parts) is going to make it all right. That's service! I haven't taken the head off his engine, but from the holes in the block and missing intake valves it seems either the piston came apart (cracked internally?), a wristpin circlip was left out, or the engine dropped a valve and proceeded to thoroughly blenderize the whole #6 piston and combustion chamber. It is maybe a 50/50 chance that it was something the engine builder did/didn't do or simply unforeseeable mechanical failure.

The Muskopf has spoken :)

The Muskopf should go pull an engine out of a car for me.:D

The Muskopf should go pull an engine out of a car for me.:D

The Musker (that is the official name) will be installing an engine for me soon. :devillook

Too bad he wont be around for Mid Ohio! We need Team Asia back!

difference between my setup and the Watt's setup


You see how you knew exactly who I was talking about from my intentional pathetic attempt to beat around the bush?


First of all Randy, since you have a history of aggression, anger and attitude - I will not reply more then once.

I am not even sure where you are coming from or your motivation, but oh well, maybe you skipped your meds today?

There was nothing discreet about my post. I posted some information that is helpful to anyone. I also offered Maxx an s54 core in a PM that I can let go at a very low price. Hardly any conspiracy or BS as you would assume. I guess it proves that nothing good goes unpunished.

Well Randy, I have spoken to Andy and James on multiple occasions and have heard a very different story. However, I have heard that they have had some mechanical and tunning issues with the car. Nothing related to the AEM or the strength of the motor. Maybe they are unhappy with the tuner not the builder. If Andy or James (who installed the motor and looks after the car) were not happy, why would they not say anything to me or our engineers on any of the many conversations that we have had? Even more, why would RRT continue to send motors to us if they were not happy? Puzzling questions, aren't they? Don't overwork your brain - the answer is pretty easy for most to see.

I am also sure that you know that the Watts ordered a MILD motor with ZERO head work, stock cams, no porting, etc. Just a stock S54 with a beefed up bottom end. You knew that right? Because your post comes across like you know everything about the situation, so I am just assuming that you really do know what you are talking about.

Last time I checked, RRT posted the dyno numbers and they were exactly on the high side number of what they should expect (which is ~360whp).

Thanks for your post, it was truly helpful to someone I am sure (although I cannot for the life of me figure out who?)

thanks
Brad


Brad,

Interesting personal attack – filed and ignored. I am more concerned in why you would write a post that takes a well known engine builder and parts manufacturer and makes people question their knowledge. It is certainly not my job to regulate your type of marketing but sometimes it is so offensive it is hard not to.

You see how you knew exactly who I was talking about from my intentional pathetic attempt to beat around the bush?


Pretty easy - I am not super stupid or anything. High profile east coast racer with an S54 and AEM, pretty easy to guess who you were referring to.

No one is calling you stupid Jon. In fact no where did I resort to name calling.

Now, lets use that same logic that you used to determine I was referring to the Watts car here from Brads previous post:



In fact one prominent east coast builder of BMW race motors (including some well known WC cars) called this week to ask about our "bearing solution" for these motors.

What engine builder do you and others that read this post THINK Brad is referring to?

No one is calling you stupid Jon. In fact no where did I resort to name calling.

Now, lets use that same logic that you used to determine I was referring to the Watts car here from Brads previous post:





What engine builder do you and others that read this post THINK Brad is referring to?

I don't know who Brad is referring to. I would guess maybe Chuck, or VAC or Bimmerworld or Sunbelt or ....

But I respect Brad's decision not to use their name based on confidentiality.

No one is calling you stupid Jon. In fact no where did I resort to name calling.

Now, lets use that same logic that you used to determine I was referring to the Watts car here from Brads previous post:





What engine builder do you and others that read this post THINK Brad is referring to?

i'm thinking sunbelt. don't they build most of the wc bmw motors. though i believe those are 2.5lt not s54's


Allen E.

I don't know who Brad is referring to. I would guess maybe Chuck, or VAC or Bimmerworld or Sunbelt or ....
only one of those is a "prominent east coast builder of BMW race motors (including some well known WC cars)"

But I respect Brad's decision not to use their name based on confidentiality.
he didn't need to use their name...maybe that was Randy's point?

It was not Sunbelt - and Randy knows that as I told him in a PM. Yet he wants to continue to attempt to derail Maxx's thread.

And Randy, you DID start the personal insults with your post.

Maybe many don't realize, but over the last 3-5 years there have been more then one east coast engine builders involved in World Challenge. Many are never made public as the race teams get a bit protective of that information.

As for Sunbelt, they have been building their S54's for a long time. 2-3 years ago, we did share some information back and forth on S54's - but since then there has been little communication. I personally have not had any negative experiences with them (save for them losing a $800 flywheel of mine when they merged with Kinetic) - but that has nothing to do with build quality.

Thanks and sorry for any confusion (well at least I am sorry to any rational people that I might have confused). :D

What am I missing here? evosport is a board sponsor. Which means money from them helps keep this forum going. Part of that is the ability to publicise and sell your products. If he had a prominent engine builder contact him about their S54 bearing solution, what is so offensive about him making that known here? Especially since he did not name names (maybe I'm out of it, but I'm apparently not as sure as Randy who he's talking about). While my motivations may be suspect considering who sponsors me, I honestly would be asking the question regardless of who the vendor was.

Randy, your post was a flat-out attack, plain and simple. And apparently, off the mark at that.

What am I missing here? evosport is a board sponsor. Which means money from them helps keep this forum going. Part of that is the ability to publicise and sell your products.

lets not go pulling a uuc and banning randy now.


circle the evosport wagons!! :ak

I'm also failing to understand why builder A going to builder B to inquire about any potential improvement would necessarily undermine builder A's customer confidence. If anything I would think builder A's customers would be happy that he is attempting to glean as much knowledge as possible about potential improvements to their engine's power and durability.

I don't really want any engine builder that says they know it all and don't need to pursue advancements building my engines.

lets not go pulling a uuc and banning randy now.


circle the evosport wagons!! :ak

Nah, I'd never support that.

When the piston shattered, it destroyed the head, so I'm in for a complete, new engine. All because of that little circlip. Someone's out to get me. Grrrrr.....

I'm just getting caught up with your thread... Wow! That sucks. So sorry to hear it and I hope things are back up and running ASAP.

Update (and back on track, although I don't mind the digression). I picked up my car and engine from RRT today. Wow, the engine REALLY hand-grenaded! There were holes top and bottom, left and right, it was pretty insane. Pics to follow. James and the RRT crew were as helpful as ever, getting me all loaded up, and giving me good advice and support.

My "junkyard" S54 showed up today, too. 16,000 miles, $2700.00. Sounds too good to be true, but it looked great, and even included the cats! I think if I sell the cats, accessories, and my shrick cams, I may break even, which would be fantastic.

Update (and back on track, although I don't mind the digression). I picked up my car and engine from RRT today. Wow, the engine REALLY hand-grenaded! There were holes top and bottom, left and right, it was pretty insane. Pics to follow. James and the RRT crew were as helpful as ever, getting me all loaded up, and giving me good advice and support.

My "junkyard" S54 showed up today, too. 16,000 miles, $2700.00. Sounds too good to be true, but it looked great, and even included the cats! I think if I sell the cats, accessories, and my shrick cams, I may break even, which would be fantastic.

That's great news, but dude get your own thread. You're :offtopic j/k :rofl:

That's a steal of a price for the new motor. Where did you find it?

Sweeeeeet find man, congrats!

You can sell the cats to recyclers and probably make more money than selling to BMW aftermarket. Big scams running right now that steal peoples cats in chop shops.

You can sell the cats to recyclers and probably make more money than selling to BMW aftermarket. Big scams running right now that steal peoples cats in chop shops.
I have the OEM cats/manifolds off of my car, how would I go about finding such a recycler?

Congrats, that IS a smokin' deal on an S54!

I have the OEM cats/manifolds off of my car, how would I go about finding such a recycler?

Google?

Here's what's left of piston #6!
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/photo-1.jpg

Google?
Metal recycling, Platinum recycling, paper recycling... what am I looking for?

Metal recycling, Platinum recycling, paper recycling... what am I looking for?

catalytic converter recycling

no sh*t, that's a smoking deal. you sure it has pistons inside?

good luck. you going to stick with standalone? what are you going to do different now than you did with the first engine?

what a deal on an s54! Now I have to waste work time searching online for a similar deal...

FYI, I have one I can let go for about 4000-4500 depending. Not quite as good, but still a fairly good deal IMHO.

Back in action! The new used engine looks fantastic, we truly believe it only had 16K miles. Cams are locked, it's all put back together, and it goes into the car tomorrow.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/photo-2.jpg

Back in action! The new used engine looks fantastic, we truly believe it only had 16K miles. Cams are locked, it's all put back together, and it goes into the car tomorrow.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o6/maxxfish/photo-2.jpg
Great news! Can't wait to see some video ... hope it holds together.

-tammer

Can I ask why you did the vanos block off? I don't like vanos myself, but I was wondering what the reasoning in this case is. Thanks man looks good.

cool, you'll be back in no time!

Can I ask why you did the vanos block off? I don't like vanos myself, but I was wondering what the reasoning in this case is. Thanks man looks good.

Simpler to tune with a stand alone. That said, it has huge advantages, which is why we're presently looking at getting it up and running on our car and RRT's S50B32. Maxx...don't ditch the parts, because once we have it figured out, you might want to bring the car back to RRT and Funktion for a retune.

B.Watts - it doesn't have HUGE advantages if the non vanos is cam timed and tuned right.

I am willing to bet ANYONE some serious money on this. BTDT, and the results are not as different as people are telling you.

It is simple really, get someone to post a vanos enabled dyno graph and we can compare to a non-vanos graph - that will tell the tale.

Any takers?

Further then that, vanos is 13lbs on the high and front side of the motor and is a known failure point for the oiling system.

Thanks
brad

I am willing to bet ANYONE some serious money on this. BTDT, and the results are not as different as people are telling you.

It is simple really, get someone to post a vanos enabled dyno graph and we can compare to a non-vanos graph - that will tell the tale.

Any takers?

What if photographic evidence existed. No dyno Queen BS, save the magic dynos for the forced induction forum.

Dual Vanos Rocks.