For all the guys who have successfully completed an LS1:

How has the maintenance been? Do you find it to be more expensive to maintain then a run of the mill M-car?

I have never owned a M-Car with a BMW motor in it, but maintenance is very minimal with a LS motor. Of course with any engine swap of this type things are bound to happen, but in terms of day to day maintenance there is not much to do.

I have never owned a M-Car with a BMW motor in it, but maintenance is very minimal with a LS motor. Of course with any engine swap of this type things are bound to happen, but in terms of day to day maintenance there is not much to do.

How much did you end up spending to complete the swap?

How much did you end up spending to complete the swap?

I don't know, but it wasn't inexpensive. I mean I just spent $800 to replace all of the weather stripping and $200 to fix the sunroof.

Not to be a d*ck, but with any aggressive project (swap or not), if you have to ask....

Not to be a d*ck, but with any aggressive project (swap or not), if you have to ask....


Thank you for not answering the question. The Z3 is hot though.:D

LS1 maintenance is very minimal. Not like a BMW at all. I have owned 6 camaro's 4 of which were LS1's... engines were NEVER a problem. Regular oil changes.. (I used German Castrol 0w-30, which seems to be the best for the LS1 engine.. check out LS1tech for this information). Engine sensors RARELY go bad.. Its a very easy and cheap engine to maintain. Everything on the engine is accessable, and you can find most parts locally.

hope this helps

Thank you for not answering the question. The Z3 is hot though.:D

Thanks ;)

Basically, just like the swap itself...the motor isn't the expensive part, it's all the supporting areas that add up. Oh, and the fact that my ride now gets 12mpg can be a bit pricey :)

you have an LS1 that gets 12mpg ?????? what the hell is wrong with your car? Is your tuning off?

12MPG???? I will assume that JoeZ's Z3 has never been in 5th or 6th gear.

you have an LS1 that gets 12mpg ?????? what the hell is wrong with your car? Is your tuning off?
sounds like he went with a "aggressive" cam. if you get a cam with 12LSA or lower, your MPG goes bye bye.. but in turn your heartbeat rises with each pulse :D

Joe, what dyno numbers are you putting down? sounds like you should be close to the 400rwhp range

Thanks ;)

Basically, just like the swap itself...the motor isn't the expensive part, it's all the supporting areas that add up. Oh, and the fact that my ride now gets 12mpg can be a bit pricey :)

The only problem is that the gas pedal is to the floor the whole time, and I'm really not sure that is considered a problem!:buttrock

sounds like he went with a "aggressive" cam. if you get a cam with 12LSA or lower, your MPG goes bye bye.. but in turn your heartbeat rises with each pulse :D

That's not true in every case. My old roommate had an '04 CTS-V that he did heads, cam, Fast 90, and the TSP V2 Torquer cam on a 111 LSA. His gas milage went from about 24 MPG hwy to 23. The city mileage was too hard to tell a difference b/c his foot was always in it. The whole LSA discussion is a whole different thread all to itself. Everyone has a different opinion on LSA's.

I'm running a mild cam (218/227, 112LSA), along with a few other minor mods. I am tuned, but like M3 Muscle said.....my right foot can be quite heavy.

Best MPG I've seen is about 17mpg, in mixed driving, light on the throttle and shifting like an old man.

Not up to 400rwhp, better heads and more aggressive cam would get me there....however I've never felt the need for more power. After tuning I hit 357rwhp and 372rwtq on a Dyno Dynamics. Nothing to write home about in the LS1 world, but what I really like is that the torque is there...everywhere. 370+ lb-ft of torque available at the wheels from 2400rpms and it's flat from there on up :)

370+ lb-ft of torque available at the wheels from 2400rpms and it's flat from there on up :)

:drool:

I'm running a mild cam (218/227, 112LSA), along with a few other minor mods. I am tuned, but like M3 Muscle said.....my right foot can be quite heavy.

Best MPG I've seen is about 17mpg, in mixed driving, light on the throttle and shifting like an old man.

Not up to 400rwhp, better heads and more aggressive cam would get me there....however I've never felt the need for more power. After tuning I hit 357rwhp and 372rwtq on a Dyno Dynamics. Nothing to write home about in the LS1 world, but what I really like is that the torque is there...everywhere. 370+ lb-ft of torque available at the wheels from 2400rpms and it's flat from there on up :)thats a really nice torque cam.

well as far as gas consumption goes, my experience is only with this cam. A 236/242 on a 109LSA with stock heads just mildly ported, eats gas like crazy.. In the past, I often saw 300 miles to a tank driving both city/high, now im lucky to reach 190-200, but sure is fun though.

I think I can hear your idle from Chicago :)

I bet it is fun though.

thats a really nice torque cam.

well as far as gas consumption goes, my experience is only with this cam. A 237/242 on a 109LSA with stock heads just mildly ported, eats gas like crazy.. In the past, I often saw 300 miles to a tank driving both city/high, now im lucky to reach 190-200, but sure is fun though.

Thats an enormous cam. Its not the LSA thats killing your MPG its that humongous cam. Ive got a 224/224 (.581) on a 112 LSA. I get excellent gas mileage. The 6 spd really helps though. Around town if I stay out of it I can manage almost 275-290 a tank all city driving. Highway is in the mid 20's MPG. Im sure your car just screams in the upper RPM's and the idle must be sick. Where are you shifting at?

I have the rev limiter set at 6500rpm, I for some reason did not get around to placing ARP rod bolts in the motor, so therefore could not exceed to 6800..

just an fyi for other guys who might be reading this and possibly thinking of LSx motor swaps, the 01-02 LS1 motors have better factory rod bolts which you can set the rev limit up to 6800 without harming the motor (just another small advantage over 98-00 LS1's).

Honestly with my cam it doesnt need to be strung out to 6800 or even 6500! most of the time i shift early at 6200. The cam numbers I chose is a high strung out cam BUT with the exception of it being placed on a 109LSA puts the top HP curve moved more closely to the mid range and also picking up the most torque possible throughout the powerband. My goal was to get the most torque while still hitting my magic 400rwp goal.

Is that an off the shelf cam? If so, which one? With that LSA Im leaning more towards a custom ground cam. I havent seen many on a 109. I still think rod bolts are important for LS1's in the higher hp applications no matter the year. Just cheap insurance in my mind. But if I were to do a LS1 swap Id just go ahead and get a forged motor with all the trimmings. They are surprisingly cheap these days depending on who you go through. If you want a budget minded reliable 346 or 408 it can be had for under 5k. Hell with 5k you can get a stock cubed long block. Or if you have the money to burn you can go with HKE or LME built motor and have a serious motor on your hands that will take whatever you can throw at it within reason. Thats my next step. In the next 2 years I plan to have a 400+ci, large single turbo. I have a few set ups floating around in my head but havent decided yet.

I've done many custom grinds that will yeild 400+ rwhp on a stock headed LS1/LS6 and even the 6.0 truck engines.

As far as the MPG figure, if you can drive it like a sane person (which is very hard) these engines are very efficient.

Here is a old combo I did for a shop truck about 4 years ago:
6.0 LQ9 from a Escalade, T56 trans, 12 bolt rear end.
Only mods to the engine were, custom grind cam approx 23X/23X at .61X/.61X on a 112+2, springs, and a set of mid-length headers (NOT even long tubes). Tuning. I think it might have had an UD pulley can't remember. It was still using the stock truck intake!

Made 452 rwhp and 419 ft pounds.

This was in a '68 Chevy C10 Pickup.
Still got 21 MPG on the highway (even with the aerodynamics of a brick).

I generally go about 90-100 miles between fillups ;)

Just shy of 8,000 on the supercharged one and during testing the blue four door had over 35,000 put on it, driving up and down the east coast.

just an fyi for other guys who might be reading this and possibly thinking of LSx motor swaps, the 01-02 LS1 motors have better factory rod bolts which you can set the rev limit up to 6800 without harming the motor (just another small advantage over 98-00 LS1's).



Well that's nice to hear. I've got an 02 and I've been afraid to pass 6,000 RPM much. I haven't hit the rev limter yet.

Oh as far as gas milage my car gets 18 MPG on the same to from work cirucit (country/highway) my BMW got 20ish. So not much less but the car is a LOT faster.

Back to the whole gas mileage thing...my buddy with the CTS-V just averaged 27.3 mpg (according to the onboard CPU) on his last highway tank of gas. His cam was the 232/234 .595/.595 111+1.5 off the top of my head. He tunes it himself with EFI live. I think that has a lot to do with it.

Is that an off the shelf cam? If so, which one? With that LSA Im leaning more towards a custom ground cam. I havent seen many on a 109. I still think rod bolts are important for LS1's in the higher hp applications no matter the year. Just cheap insurance in my mind. But if I were to do a LS1 swap Id just go ahead and get a forged motor with all the trimmings. Nope, the cam is a custom grind.

Yes, i agree the rod bolts are important and good insurance, if i were to consider another LSx, i will be replacing the stocks with better rod bolts.

Anybody have own video or LS1 swap?

anyone swapping a 98-00 LS1 engine that came from a Y or F body... CHANGE THE ROD BOLTS!!! Katech Engineering sells a complete set for $199... http://www.katechengines.com/street_performance/engine_parts_detail.php?id=5

if you dont want to change rod bolts... then NEVER take it above 6000 rpms... it will hold to about 6.5k rpms.. but if you do it enough they will let go..

also.. for the guy who says that chaning a cam will kill your fuel mileage... i was getting 28mpg all stock.. after the cam swap.. i got 24mpg... mostly do to my new found heavy foot...

12mpg is terrible... even in city driving with a big cam. For those of you thinking about a cam swap.. choose wisely.. there are TONS of companies out there making cams for LSx engines now. Choose one that suits your power band and where the car will spend most of its RPM time in. Choosing a big "donkey dick" cam will not benifit you if the power band comes on at lets say 3k to 7k... most people dont even have an intake that will breathe correctly at 7k.. let alone need to be that high..

a great street cam.. with many years of proven performance, and power.. is Thunder Racings (www.thunderracing.com (http://www.thunderracing.com)) TR224 ... you can get it on 224/224 .563/.563 114LSA or 112LSA

power band for the 114LSA is 1500rpms-6500rpms and for the 112LSA 1700-6600rpms.. you need to use some comp cams 918 springs to handle the aggressive lobes of the cam.. http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog/?action=vshop&vid=3&pcid=109 1st product on this page.. Part# 63-26918-16

people have been putting down 390-410rwhp with JUST this cam and tuning... you cant go wrong it it.

i should be starting mine this spring, hopefully after my new shop is built. Ill be taking plenty of pics and such and hopefully will be doing more swaps in the future, customer orders, ect ect...

also.. for the guy who says that chaning a cam will kill your fuel mileage... i was getting 28mpg all stock.. after the cam swap.. i got 24mpg... mostly do to my new found heavy foot...



Not sure if you're referring to me or not, however I don't believe I ever stated that going with an aftermarket cam will kill your mileage. I just stated what mileage I'm currently experiencing in my car.

I didn't go into detail regarding my driving style, but my car generally stays put and will only come out on the nicest days during the times when I'll see very little traffic. I go out and have fun, foot to the floor as soon as temps are up :)

I'm rarely cruising on the highway, and rarely use 5th or 6th gear. Oh, and on the track I average about 4-6mpg ;)

i think he's talking to me when i said that 112LSA or lower makes your MPG go bye bye. Well i did not say that it would equate to 12 mpg, but I did say it drops considerably from when i used to get 26-30MPG mix driving to now 17-21 MPG mix driving... I do only drive mine on nice weather days, and i like to stretch its legs. heheh, just cant resist it, its funnn!

224 cams are nice, and they will make good power but for me (at the time) i was wanting a little more of a cam to reach my goal of 400rwhp and those 224 cams will not reach that with mild 241 heads 346ci motor. Mine is similiar to specs of a MS3 cam which is plenty big. Now been there done that.. i want driveability back and not so much surging below the 1700RPM range.. so a 224 cam would be quite nice for a next project.

I believe personally that you really need to tailor your cam to the use of the car. If its an all out drag car than you want a bigger cam so you can have all that power up top and spin it to 7k+. Of course you will need some supporting mods to spin it that high. I think the 224 is the best all around street cam. It makes more average power than those huge cams and has the TQ down low to get you moving. I make over 300 ft/lbs of TQ before 2500RPM with mine. There is a lot of area under the curve and has a very wide power band. Those big cams are too peaky. Yes you may make gobs of power with them but your dyno sheet looks like a mountain and just drops off a cliff at the end. The drive-ability of a huge cam can be overcome with a good tuner. Although it wont be completely tame its tolerable for most. If your looking for a good street performer with stock like behavior its 224 all the way. Its considered the best all around cam. Mine has some pretty aggressive lobes @ .581. I wanted the most I can get out of it. It also means I may be changing springs a little sooner than someone with a milder lobe. Just things to take into consideration. LSA is based on what you want out of it also. Do you want the power band to spin out a lil farther or do you want it to come on earlier? Do you want it to sound lopey and cackle like no other or do you want a little lope but sound more tamed and refined? Its all personal preference. No one can tell you such and such is the best cam. You have to decide. One thing to expect with any cam, is more noise. The more aggressive the cam the louder things tend to be. Just my .02 on cams. Take it with a grain of salt and make an educated decision.

i was using a GM ASA (the old road racing sanctioning body) cam 226/236 .525/.525 110 LSA... with milled down 241 heads (had 28 thousands taken off to get me 62.5cc combustion chambers) which bumped my compression to 10.7.1.. i put down 375rwhp with just tuning and long tube headers. The dyno i used was a DynaPack 5000 (which dont inflate #'s like Dyno Jets do) on a DynoJet i made 390rwhp... but i claim the 375 since that was more realistic..

the good thing about choosing a cam with not a lot of lift.. is the spring wear. I was able to use the 04+ LS6 springs.. orange striped.. good for .580 lift... (the 01 LS6 had yellow LS6 springs good to .550 lift)... and the 02-03 LS6 had the blue striped springs (still good to .550 but some claim .575)

if you choose a high lift cam... .580 and higher... you will be changing springs every 10k miles.. even IF you use the comp cams 918 springs. So do your homework on the cam.. make DAMN SURE you choose the right springs and retainers.. and make sure you know the ramp rates of the cam.. such as XR or XE ect..

my cam was fine in daily usage.. it didnt like to idle below 800rpms.. and it has a NASTY lope sound which always turned heads.. which was due to the 110 LSA... had i used some 243 ported heads.. im sure my #'s would have been in the 410rwhp range...

but let me tell you this... 375rwhp i was spinning the tires in 1st.. 2nd.. and could spin 3rd for 1 or 2 seconds... its more power than most people are used to or can control.. and it weighed 3400lbs WITHOUT DRIVER... you guys are putting them into 3150lbs cars.. some into cars much lighter than that...

375rwhp + 16%(drive train loss) puts it at 435hp at the crank...

Yep, people always forget about the downside of high lift cams. I kept mine at .580" for that very reason. And I have a baby cam - for my displacement :)

i went with a dart aluminum racing block instead of the ls series engine. the dart block can be stroked to 454 cubic inches...mine is 434 inches and with less than 10 to 1 compression makes almost 600 hp at the crank and almost same amount of torque. forged internals allow me to add nos if i choose. the engine with accessories weighed slightly over 400 pounds...do not get very good mileage but it does have an aec carb which really dumps in the fuel. it is not in a bmw but is in a lightweight porsche 911 weighing 2200 pounds. personally i recommend the ls, sbc engine for most any swap and you can build hp easily and cheaply for everyday driving. i do not even have to run premiun gas and still get on down the road...straight or twisty!

^^^ that sounds like a neat car.

^^^ that sounds like a nasty car.

fixed ;)

SplitFire and rao,

Keeping the lift to under .600 for spring life is very broad statement. We have run many .620-.660 lift cams with comp dual springs or patriot duals well into 50K miles and never once seen an issue. We have done even more low .61X lift cams on comp 918's and the only time I've seen an issue is when a customer failed to warm the engine up before beating on it.

I would like to stress the importance of assembled valve weight relative to lift and rpm to choose a spring. There is more to it than just X brand spring is good for .650 lift.

Lot of good info here. For all you LS Guru's, if you wanted to make 450rwhp and be streetable at the same time, what motor would you start with? LS1, LS6, or LS2? Not including LS3 or LS7 since they are relatively new and expensive.

How would you modify it to get target HP? Any preventative maintenance need to be done before installing into the car?

Trying to absorb as much as possible since this is a swap I'd be interested in doing down the road.

TIA

Lot of good info here. For all you LS Guru's, if you wanted to make 450rwhp and be streetable at the same time, what motor would you start with? LS1, LS6, or LS2? Not including LS3 or LS7 since they are relatively new and expensive.

How would you modify it to get target HP? Any preventative maintenance need to be done before installing into the car?

Trying to absorb as much as possible since this is a swap I'd be interested in doing down the road.

TIA
To get to 450whp, you will need to upgrade your cams/head and possibly intake manifold, so no need to pay more for LS6 over LS1. It would be easier with LS2 though due to .3 more liters. I plan on getting right around 430-450whp with a 23x/23x cam and 5.3l Stage 2.5 heads from TSP and then a FAST LSX Intake Manifold.

Lot of good info here. For all you LS Guru's, if you wanted to make 450rwhp and be streetable at the same time, what motor would you start with? LS1, LS6, or LS2? Not including LS3 or LS7 since they are relatively new and expensive.

How would you modify it to get target HP? Any preventative maintenance need to be done before installing into the car?

Trying to absorb as much as possible since this is a swap I'd be interested in doing down the road.

TIA


If you start with an LS6 or LS2 which both use the same head, ported heads are not needed to reach that power level but it does make it easier. Headers with a well flowing exhaust, a good cam and matched springs, LS6 intake (LS2 is inferior to the LS6), a good tune, and the normal supporting little stuff will get you there.

Oil pump is not a common problem for the LS engines but easy to change before the engine is in the car. If you plan to spin it above 6400 often I would recommend a set of ARP rod bolts.

SplitFire and rao,

Keeping the lift to under .600 for spring life is very broad statement. We have run many .620-.660 lift cams with comp dual springs or patriot duals well into 50K miles and never once seen an issue. We have done even more low .61X lift cams on comp 918's and the only time I've seen an issue is when a customer failed to warm the engine up before beating on it.

I would like to stress the importance of assembled valve weight relative to lift and rpm to choose a spring. There is more to it than just X brand spring is good for .650 lift.



It is certainly not that simple.

Obviously lowering the weight of the valvetrain helps in this regard. however you still need good seat pressure and using the more aggressive ramp rate springs at those high lift amounts is just asking for trouble. Some people like to ask for trouble :)

Lot of good info here. For all you LS Guru's, if you wanted to make 450rwhp and be streetable at the same time, what motor would you start with? LS1, LS6, or LS2? Not including LS3 or LS7 since they are relatively new and expensive.

How would you modify it to get target HP? Any preventative maintenance need to be done before installing into the car?

Trying to absorb as much as possible since this is a swap I'd be interested in doing down the road.

TIA


450hp is easily attainable. First off. If your going to do it, do it right the first time. People charge way too much for a used stock LS1/2/3/6/7. You can get a fully built short block for as much as you would pay for an LS1 long block. Dont bother with the LS6. You will pay for the name and all the parts that make it a LS6 gets tossed out in the name of more power. If you want an easy 500hp Id go with either a 402 LS2 aluminum block, or a 408 iron block. Depends on if you have weight concerns, or your going FI. The aluminum will stand up to just about anything you can throw at it. Some of the FI guys prefer the iron for piece of mind. At those cubes, unless going FI, the LS6 intake is going to choke your motor. At that point you either go with an LS2/L76 intake or a fast 90. Weiand also has a new intake coming out thats suppose to be better than all of the above and cheaper than the fast 90. With those cubes you can achieve 500+hp with a mild streetable cam and a good set of heads. There are endless amounts of heads to chose from in the LSX world. Some of them will cost you also. Theres no way around it. It costs less to do it right the first time. Even if you do chose to go stock cubes you will still need to spend money on a good set of ported heads. Like I said, no way around it. Also the cam will have to be more aggresive and you may run into issues with its street manners in a stock cubed application. Im not sure if your talking about hp at the flywheel or at the wheels. All of the above is with it at the wheels in mind. You will need to upgrade the valve springs with something appropriate for the cam youve selected. Also Id recommend a quality oil pump, hardened pushrods, and double roller timing chain. If you go with stock cubes than 1 3/4" headers will do. If you go with the larger displacement then you will need to go with 1 7/8".

I know this is more info than you asked for, or probably needed. I thought I would take it upon myself to help plan a solid foundation for you. It costs a lot of money and sometimes you have to take it slow and buy a little at a time. Things have gotten a lot cheaper and you can have a quality, monster of a motor for cheap. I hope this answered your questions and all the ones you didnt even ask.

Breaking Stuff:

Most of what you said is good info. Just wanted to add that after literally 100's of dyno runs on LSX combos - 1.75 inch primary long tubes makes the best average power. 1.875 primaries will sometimes trade off mid range torque for peak horsepower but is rarely worth it for engines at or under 427 cid and less than 7200 rpm.

Also, making 450 rwhp does not require a built engine and ported heads although it does make it easier to attain and can sustain more power if desired later. Like I mentioned before, if someone is only wanting 450rwhp a custom cam, exhaust, intake, and tuning will get you there. I do not disagree that often people want so much for a stock long block that building a forged engine becomes not much more money. It all depends on the long term goals.

Great suggestions. Thanks for the info guys.

Breaking Stuff, I understand what your trying to say about getting a built motor, but since this is all going to be dropped into a BMW, I need more then the engine. Motor, trans, wiring harness, computer, accessories, etc. It would seem that the most cost effective way to do it would be to get a complete setup from a totaled car. Otherwise, getting a built motor and every single piece to get it running right would take lots of time and money.

BTW, I had an 88 Formula 350 back in the day.

I see complete setups on ebay. What other places are people sourcing complete drivetrains from? What's considered good pricing?

Thanks again.

Great suggestions. Thanks for the info guys.

Breaking Stuff, I understand what your trying to say about getting a built motor, but since this is all going to be dropped into a BMW, I need more then the engine. Motor, trans, wiring harness, computer, accessories, etc. It would seem that the most cost effective way to do it would be to get a complete setup from a totaled car. Otherwise, getting a built motor and every single piece to get it running right would take lots of time and money.

BTW, I had an 88 Formula 350 back in the day.

I see complete setups on ebay. What other places are people sourcing complete drivetrains from? What's considered good pricing?

Thanks again.


I understand where your coming from. I would stay away from e-bay. Thats where a lot of the over pricing goes on. Id take a look at some of the LS1 forums, you can always find complete motors and trans in their classifieds section. Sometimes you can even get a complete built setup. Around this time of the year people are always selling of their stuff and trying new combos. You may be able to find a complete stock or built swap with everything you need. Make sure when you do find something you like, ask a lot of questions. Make sure your getting the wiring harness and computer. Those will be pricey if you have to get them separate. Pricing I cant really help you on. Never tried to buy a used stock motor or trans. Just take a look at several ads and try to gauge a fair price. People want and are paying big money for T-56's so if you find a good price on one jump on it. I may even be getting ready to get rid of my stuff in favor of some more cubes. If I make a final decision, Ill let you know. I have exactly what your looking for, all you would need to do is go with a more aggressive cam and you can reach your desired HP.


EDIT: I did some looking around for you. Ive found a complete pull out with everything it came with from the factory down to the smog equipment for $4500. Thats with the 6 spd. I found just the complete motor with evrything you need for about $1500-$2500. Ive also found complete built motors with harness and accessories from $2500 to $3500. No tranny with them. Some of the built ones were some quality motors built by well known builders. All were pretty low miles. The stock ones ranged from 40k-80k miles. All the built ones I found had less than 5k miles. Just food for thought. I would post links to the ads but dont want to get in trouble for posting links to another forum.

Breaking, thanks for the info.

I understand why you wouldn't want to post links, but give me a list of websites you are hitting. I'll just check out their classifieds myself.

Thanks again.

Let me brush up on rules before I go posting other forums and websites. I dont want to feel the wrath of the ban hammer.

Don't post if you don't want, but I don't think a PM will get you banned.

I would but I need one more post before I can PM. As soon as I can Ill be sure to let you know.