So my buddy Brian and I were headed up to Dover AFB in Delaware yesterday to visit my little brother one last time before he ships out to Baghdad:(

We're on rt.50 heading east about 3 miles away from the Bay Bridge for you local guys. Up ahead I see this younger kid and his girl in a red E46 M3 that obviously had aftermarket rims with big fat tires, looked lowered. He had an e46fanatics.com sticker on the right rear window towards the bottom. I thought for SURE this guy would be game for a little fun.....no such luck. I roll up next to him and downshift, let him hear the exhaust, he looks over real quick and that was the last time he would look at us, lol:evil2. I tried baiting him by lurching forward a few times and the dude absolutely REFUSED to make eye contact with us. He then proceeded to go about 40-45mph on the 55 or 65mph hwy and wouldn't get next to me again. Oh well.....I didn't want to be a dick so I just threw it into 6th and cruised ahead.

I'd say a kill by default?????:D

or smarter then you

Wait, clarification... which car were you in?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but maybe he's like me and can't afford a ticket? Plenty of people try/want to race me and I don't simply because of the potential expense of A) the person not knowing how to drive and hitting me, and B) getting a ticket or having my car impounded (or both). Either way, if you were in the bimmer it's too bad that he didn't at least acknowledge you; I even give props to the 50 y.o. women driving the other direction in e46 325's :D (why are there SO MANY?!?!?).

Too bad they weren't fair game regardless, I read e46 m3 and wanted some craziness to unfold :)

edit (for addition): My girlfriend has been in accidents in the past and gets freaked out if I even accelerate "too quickly" (no 325i jokes, please), so maybe that had something to do with it?

That's an unnecessary comment on the Kill Section. Especially since the OP doesn't post stories about weaving in traffic to race a civic.

Some just absolutely refuse to race on the street, or his girl refuses, or he has tickets on his record, or its not his car, etc. etc.

At least he could have given a thumbs up and shake his head "no".

I had to do the same thing the FIRST night I had my Charger. A couple of dudes in Terminator Cobra wanted to go but my girl said no AND the car wasn't broken in yet. I had to shake my head and wave. Oh well.

E46 M3 > pontiac :stickoutt

E46 M3 > pontiac
Not this one, haha

Good lord, some of you people are just absolutley ridiculous. The excuses just keep piling up. "Maybe he was smarter than you":rolleyes Or maybe the obvious.....he was scared at the possibility of getting beat in front of his girl......nah, COULDN'T be THAT could it? There was plenty of room for a quick run, and traffic was very light. I am not a child who swerves in and out of traffic recklessly trying to one up others. I saw an opportunity and chose to have a little fun. I GUARANTEE if someone posted up that they tried to race a GTO in their E46 M3 and the same thing happened, some of you would be singing an extremely different tune.

As someone else said...if he just didn't feel like racing for whatever reason, he could have just given me a friendly wave and told me no. I would have happily been on my way. The guy refused to make eye contact with me and slowed down so he wouldn't have to be next to me. lol

P.S. I know there were a couple positive posts in there so far, so this obviously isn't directed at you folks.:D

DSWADS34-I was in the GTO

or smarter then you

Oh, and BTW....correct grammar and spelling would suggest you use the word "than."

"Smarter THANyou" would be the right way to insult me.:rolleyes

You must be a street racer huh?:D

DSWADS34-I was in the GTO


YOU WERE IN THE CAR IN YOUR SIG~!!! OMG NO WAYYYYYYYYY.

That sucks though. You would DESTROY an E46.

I'm still trying to figure out this low voltage code I'm throwing, then I'm going //M hunting.

Nice OP. I guess just FYI, but the kill section has gotten to be REALLY childish and argumentative over the last few months, so much so that I don't really post in here any more. So don't sweat people, keep it straight and be safe and you're good in most enthusiast's books (including my own) :buttrock

Nice OP. I guess just FYI, but the kill section has gotten to be REALLY childish and argumentative over the last few months, so much so that I don't really post in here any more. So don't sweat people, keep it straight and be safe and you're good in most enthusiast's books (including my own) :buttrock

I appreciate that. I've had lots of cars from many different manufacturers and consider myself to be a true car enthusiast. It's a pity that some of the childish folks around here can't see past the bmw badge....because there are other great cars out there besides BMW. And just because I was in a Pontiac doesn't mean he couldn't throw a fellow car guy a wave.

50 is a speed trap..especially near the bridge in anne arundel or queen annes.

Nice OP. I guess just FYI, but the kill section has gotten to be REALLY childish and argumentative over the last few months, so much so that I don't really post in here any more. So don't sweat people, keep it straight and be safe and you're good in most enthusiast's books (including my own) :buttrock

+1 kids suck. Nice kill. I do that in my chevelle all the time.

P.S. my chevelle will wollop your GTO also. but not in the corners or braking! :)
Have fun and stay safe!

I appreciate that. I've had lots of cars from many different manufacturers and consider myself to be a true car enthusiast. It's a pity that some of the childish folks around here can't see past the bmw badge....because there are other great cars out there besides BMW. And just because I was in a Pontiac doesn't mean he couldn't throw a fellow car guy a wave.

+1

he could have at least acknowledged you and shown some respect to the guy he wouldn't run.

P.S. my chevelle will wollop your GTO also.

:confused And I'm sure there are GTOs that would wallop your chevelle....your point? There is always someone faster, I don't claim for one second to be one of the quickest. My car isn't that fast, but I'd race your Chevelle in a heartbeat even knowing I'd lose.:D

:confused And I'm sure there are GTOs that would wallop your chevelle....your point? There is always someone faster, I don't claim for one second to be one of the quickest. My car isn't that fast, but I'd race your Chevelle in a heartbeat even knowing I'd lose.:D

Exactly how i feel. I would of raced you knowing the outcome. It sure would be fun.
I just cant believe delaware is in the kill section. :eyecrazy Other than me. :shifty

And I wish there was car enthusiast other than honda guys around here. When summer comes around we need a BF.com gtg in ocean city. :buttrock

O and dont worry. Air Force deployments are cake.

FWIW, an E46 M3 and 6.0L GTO are pretty even stock for stock, aren't they? Both run very low 13s.

Nice "kill," Brian. That is your name, isn't it? I tend to forget names. And the fact that you were with a friend named Brian confuses me even more. :D

We should have some fun sometime. M3 vs. GTO. :devillook

FWIW, an E46 M3 and 6.0L GTO are pretty even stock for stock, aren't they? Both run very low 13s.

Nice "kill," Brian. That is your name, isn't it? I tend to forget names. And the fact that you were with a friend named Brian confuses me even more. :D

We should have some fun sometime. M3 vs. GTO. :devillook

haha thanks man, yeah it's Brian. Two Brian's in the car this particular time.;) I'm always down, just let me know. I don't do much in the winter, car won't hook for crap on this cold pavement:( but whatever.

haha thanks man, yeah it's Brian. Two Brian's in the car this particular time.;) I'm always down, just let me know. I don't do much in the winter, car won't hook for crap on this cold pavement:( but whatever.

Definitely. I just have an extreme and overwhelming sense of paranoia when I do anything in this area. Stupid Fairfax County cops have permanently instilled fear in me. I really can't afford to lose my license or anything, lol.

I bet I've seen your car before, I just didn't know it. You've probably seen one of mine, too. I've had 5 BMWs in the past year and a half. :stickoutt That's kinda sad, actually... :rofl

I'll hit you up one of these days.

Definitely. I just have an extreme and overwhelming sense of paranoia when I do anything in this area. Stupid Fairfax County cops have permanently instilled fear in me. I really can't afford to lose my license or anything, lol.

I bet I've seen your car before, I just didn't know it. You've probably seen one of mine, too. I've had 5 BMWs in the past year and a half. :stickoutt That's kinda sad, actually... :rofl

I'll hit you up one of these days.

I feel the exact same way regarding the popo, it's much different now than it used to be.

Sounds good.:redspot We'll make some track days when the weather starts getting warmer.

That's usually what happens when I bait people to race. D: That or they swerve because the sound from my exhaust scares the Profanity removed out of them.

I learned this when I let my dad drive the 'stang and he floored it next to me. Scared the Removed out of me. Made me learn and also made me proud. :D

Good psyche out!

Do not use profanity on this forum.

sweet kill...syke

To the OP, haha nice intimidation. I could understand him not racing, cause 50 is a speed trap, I never ever cut loose on it, but he could of at least been polite n shook his head no.

that kiddo doesn't deserve to drive an E46 M3 :shifty . And no, the're not the same - a 6L GTO will take an M3 from a roll :devillook

Up ahead I see this younger kid and his girl in a red E46 M3

that means he was on a leash!!!!
lol

but that would have been a fun run.

that means he was on a leash!!!!
lol

but that would have been a fun run.

lol, I dunno if he was on a leash or not....I wasn't doggin' the kid. I would have happily given him a friendly wave. Oh well....guess you can't get them all huh? I hardly EVER street race, I probably get into something quick 2-3 times a year if even that.

yeah that does suck, out of all the days you don't wanna race and then when it finally comes no one wants to race you.

YOU WERE IN THE CAR IN YOUR SIG~!!! OMG NO WAYYYYYYYYY.

That sucks though. You would DESTROY an E46.

I'm still trying to figure out this low voltage code I'm throwing, then I'm going //M hunting.

Head down I-20 East and PM me. I will save you the issue of hunting:shifty

Head down I-20 East and PM me. I will save you the issue of hunting:shifty


You gonna bring the SRT?

If I head to my sister's in ATL, I might PM ya. :redspot

50 is a speed trap..especially near the bridge in anne arundel or queen annes.

That's just retarded to even attempt to race on that road. :confused

Not to mention, why even try and pick on something like that? You both know the outcome.

Not to mention, why even try and pick on something like that? You both know the outcome.

If you're talking about the E46 M3 vs. GTO, I don't know why so many people have the misconception that the GTO is so much faster than the E46 M3. According to drag times and trap speeds, they are very similar (6.0) :dunno Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd really like to know how I'd fare. :devillook

If you're talking about the E46 M3 vs. GTO, I don't know why so many people have the misconception that the GTO is so much faster than the E46 M3. According to drag times and trap speeds, they are very similar (6.0) :dunno Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd really like to know how I'd fare. :devillook

I'm a bit faster than stock though, and my car trapped 109 bone stock with 1,400 miles on it. Maybe people were going by the dyno numbers in my sig?:devillook They may be similar in 1/4 mile but the GTO consistantly traps higher doesn't it? From a highway roll I'd put my money on a well driven 6spd GTO every time, especially after 100mph. The LSx motors just pull and pull and pull.

I'm not sure how you'd fare, I don't know enough about what mods do for the E46 M3 to comment. So I'll just leave that one up to the people who know. ;) I wouldn't mind finding out though.:D

That's just retarded to even attempt to race on that road. :confused

Not to mention, why even try and pick on something like that? You both know the outcome.

Man, I guess I'm glad I didn't now. I don't get up that way much. Road looked long and flat with not much traffic, no cops in sight. Guess it's the one you don't see that will get you huh? I wasn't expecting to whip the guy bad, I consider an E46 M3 to be more than worthy of a friendly run.

Head down I-20 East and PM me. I will save you the issue of hunting:shifty

hah, I'd love to if you were closer. I'm not scared. And FYI, I wasn't hunting....just trying to get a quick run in with a fellow car enthusiast.

I'm a bit faster than stock though, and my car trapped 109 bone stock with 1,400 miles on it. Maybe people were going by the dyno numbers in my sig?:devillook They may be similar in 1/4 mile but the GTO consistantly traps higher doesn't it? From a highway roll I'd put my money on a well driven 6spd GTO every time, especially after 100mph. The LSx motors just pull and pull and pull.

Yeah, no stock E46 M3 has ever trapped 109. 107 seems to be fairly common, though. I wonder what would happen to that 2 MPH difference at 110+. Would probably just get worse for the M3. :( :D

I'm not sure how you'd fare, I don't know enough about what mods do for the E46 M3 to comment. So I'll just leave that one up to the people who know. ;) I wouldn't mind finding out though.:D

:thumbup: Soon. :devillook

I want a GTO.
So sexy.
Nice car :)

Perhaps he was waiting for the road to get twisty, where he would clearly dominate you. Or maybe he wanted you to slow down and stop to have an interior competition, where you could debate the merits of each others interiors and options, in which case I'm sure the ownage would be reversed.

In fact, the OP was the one intimidated by not partaking in such activities! Buahaha! :lol ;)

Sorry, just recovering from a day in which I test drove an S5 and a 335i. The salesmen gave me earfuls and were quick to insult the piss out of my car and domestics in general. The test drives were sweet as hell though.

Perhaps he was waiting for the road to get twisty, where he would clearly dominate you. Or maybe he wanted you to slow down and stop to have an interior competition, where you could debate the merits of each others interiors and options, in which case I'm sure the ownage would be reversed.

In fact, the OP was the one intimidated by not partaking in such activities! Buahaha! :lol ;)

Sorry, just recovering from a day in which I test drove an S5 and a 335i. The salesmen gave me earfuls and were quick to insult the piss out of my car and domestics in general. The test drives were sweet as hell though.
:rofl

Its got to be my favorite defense when someone posts a kill thread against any other car, they get told that the other car is definitely faster, and they just beat the driver, good kill but don't be cocky, and they respond that at least their car is nicer. You posted in a kill forum, indicates you measure your dick based on how fast your car is. Just admit defeat because someone will always beat you.

Always cool win by WO





:rolleyes

If you're talking about the E46 M3 vs. GTO, I don't know why so many people have the misconception that the GTO is so much faster than the E46 M3. According to drag times and trap speeds, they are very similar (6.0) :dunno Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'd really like to know how I'd fare. :devillook


Most LS1s are faster than E46 M3s.

I want a GTO.
So sexy.
Nice car :)

Thanks mate! I like the front end on your 540. M5 front clip swap? looks good.:buttrock

Perhaps he was waiting for the road to get twisty, where he would clearly dominate you. Or maybe he wanted you to slow down and stop to have an interior competition, where you could debate the merits of each others interiors and options, in which case I'm sure the ownage would be reversed.

In fact, the OP was the one intimidated by not partaking in such activities! Buahaha! :lol ;)

Sorry, just recovering from a day in which I test drove an S5 and a 335i. The salesmen gave me earfuls and were quick to insult the piss out of my car and domestics in general. The test drives were sweet as hell though.

lol, ever been inside a GTO? I'd match my interior up with his ANY day of the week. This ain't a regular GM car remeber.;) I'm still thinking of trading it in for an '08 C6....only thing holding me back right now is the fact that it's going to be a big step down interior wise from the GTO.

Most LS1s are faster than E46 M3s.


As they should be. Or they better be, seeing as they have close to double the engine. In fact when looked at from displacement to power ratio, the LS1 is a severely underpowered, detuned, pointless waste of displacement. Unless ofcourse it's tuned to it's perfection. Then the LS1 is one of the finest powerplants on the planet. But in it's stock form, it's pretty dismal.


Most manufacturers can get 300HP out of a 3.5 liter six. And 100HP per liter is a good standard. With the LS1's displacement i would expect much much more stock power. Even the 400HP mark for a LS1 is a good achievement, but still dismal considering the displacement.

As they should be. Or they better be, seeing as they have close to double the engine. In fact when looked at from displacement to power ratio, the LS1 is a severely underpowered, detuned, pointless waste of displacement. Unless ofcourse it's tuned to it's perfection. Then the LS1 is one of the finest powerplants on the planet. But in it's stock form, it's pretty dismal.


Most manufacturers can get 300HP out of a 3.5 liter six. And 100HP per liter is a good standard. With the LS1's displacement i would expect much much more stock power. Even the 400HP mark for a LS1 is a good achievement, but still dismal considering the displacement.What about a fuel consumption/hp, or lb/hp (just the engine) of volume that the ACTUAL engine displaces (not internal displacement) per hp.

Also, look at torque/liter, its pretty constant across most engines. The key to hp/liter is just to make the engine rev higher and flow more top end. Thats all relatively easy to do, its intake manifold, exhaust manifold, and pipe tuning. Most mech-engineers can handle it. Just happens that the LS1 (2,3,6,7,9 etc.) all are compromises between manufacturing cost, efficiency, performance, and drivability.

I strongly disagree with the notion that the LSx engines are anything but great.

Maybe i miss represented myself. I think the LS1 is a good beast of a powerplant. But not necessarily in it's stock form.

Maybe i miss represented myself. I think the LS1 is a good beast of a powerplant. But not necessarily in it's stock form.

It's a beast in stock form.a stock pushrod engine that can run 200k miles dropping 300+ rwhp (manual).

I fail to see anything unimpressive about that.

It doesn't rev as high as an //M straight six, but it displaces less space and gets better milage.



It's certainly a drivable engine.

I can go out right now, and get 26 MPG. And then toast a few mustangs.


it doesn't have a GTO interior, but I don't really care. It's a great car.



And with head/cam ($2k) it will drop 400-450 to the ground, and rev to 7.5k if you ask nicely.

It's a very good engine but GM for a long time seemed to push them out with real shitty setups from the factory. Making low power etc etc etc.....

IMO, the new generation of these engines is where they should have been all along. 300hp IMO is a minnimum requirement for this powerplant. It should be closer to 400HP.

It's a very good engine but GM for a long time seemed to push them out with real shitty setups from the factory. Making low power etc etc etc.....

IMO, the new generation of these engines is where they should have been all along. 300hp IMO is a minnimum requirement for this powerplant. It should be closer to 400HP.

Crappy setups how?

They were ALL 13 second or less cars.

Crappy setups how?

They were ALL 13 second or less cars.
I'm giving up, arguing the engine is poorly setup factory given the performance levels of the cars it was in, the fuel economy those cars get, and the drivability that the engine provides, if people can't accept it as a great design and engineering accomplishment (it has less raw material than the V6 in my car) they are being closed minded.

Hey OP,

I personally think he would have raced you if his girl wasn't in the car. I know my girl hated when I took my e36 over 50mph. My best friend; his wife wouldn't let him take their Accord over 40 and when he got into an accident, he's not even allowed to rev the the new Altima.

I agree about him giving you a wave would have suffice though.

I wouldn't classify it as a kill. I killed an M5 driver in my 328 (his was an 06 mine is a 98) but the reason I say mine is by intimidation was because he initiated the race and we gave it a go until we hit about 70-75 and then he wouldn't go any further. I think he thought I'd back down.

Either way, the guy could have been classy about it. Or another perspective would be if the guy thought you were a stick up kid or something looking to hassel him.

Just MHO

Hey OP,

I personally think he would have raced you if his girl wasn't in the car. I know my girl hated when I took my e36 over 50mph. My best friend; his wife wouldn't let him take their Accord over 40 and when he got into an accident, he's not even allowed to rev the the new Altima.

I agree about him giving you a wave would have suffice though.

I wouldn't classify it as a kill. I killed an M5 driver in my 328 (his was an 06 mine is a 98) but the reason I say mine is by intimidation was because he initiated the race and we gave it a go until we hit about 70-75 and then he wouldn't go any further. I think he thought I'd back down.

Either way, the guy could have been classy about it. Or another perspective would be if the guy thought you were a stick up kid or something looking to hassel him.

Just MHO

hah, that's all well and good but if the girl was the reason I doubt seriously that he would have REFUSED to even look over at me, then purposely slow down to well below the speed limit so he wouldn't have to be next to me anymore. I didn't see his girl say one thing to him.

Oh, and he was MUCH younger than I am.;)

hah, that's all well and good but if the girl was the reason I doubt seriously that he would have REFUSED to even look over at me, then purposely slow down to well below the speed limit so he wouldn't have to be next to me anymore. I didn't see his girl say one thing to him.

Oh, and he was MUCH younger than I am.;)

My fiance loves to go to the track with me. I think this dude just pussed out. Probably trying to impress the date with Dad's M3.

My fiance loves to go to the track with me. I think this dude just pussed out. Probably trying to impress the date with Dad's M3.

To be honest, I've only dated one other girl that loved to drive, and I'm not talking the cruising, "look at what daddy got me" but the insane traffic dodging, highway killing, replacing brake pads every 4 months dame. Yeah she was Michelle Rodriguez in The Fast And The Furious type of chick.

Every other girl I've dated just doesn't like it.

It doesn't rev as high as an //M straight six, but it displaces less space and gets better milage.

What do you mean, it displaces less space? 5.7L vs. 3.2L? Or are you talking about the size of the engine, which would logically still be larger than an S52/S54? :confused

As far as better mileage, I highly doubt that. I can get in the upper bounds of the 20s on the highway and very high teens/low 20s with in stop-and-go/city traffic.

To be honest, I've only dated one other girl that loved to drive, and I'm not talking the cruising, "look at what daddy got me" but the insane traffic dodging, highway killing, replacing brake pads every 4 months dame. Yeah she was Michelle Rodriguez in The Fast And The Furious type of chick.

Every other girl I've dated just doesn't like it.

I know. It's nice to find one that can tolerate car stuff. Her family used to run a paint shop, and she's painted a model T before.

What do you mean, it displaces less space? 5.7L vs. 3.2L? Or are you talking about the size of the engine, which would logically still be larger than an S52/S54? :confused

As far as better mileage, I highly doubt that. I can get in the upper bounds of the 20s on the highway and very high teens/low 20s with in stop-and-go/city traffic.


I mean that the physical size of an LS1 is smaller than an S52/54. You read that all over the swap forums =).

I averaged 21 MPG over 1500 miles of city driving.
That included several trips to 150 and a few passes at the strip.

I can get 28 out of the car, and it's not running completely right. :cool

What do you mean, it displaces less space? 5.7L vs. 3.2L? Or are you talking about the size of the engine, which would logically still be larger than an S52/S54? :confused

As far as better mileage, I highly doubt that. I can get in the upper bounds of the 20s on the highway and very high teens/low 20s with in stop-and-go/city traffic.
EPA rates the LS1 cars with better fuel economy.

S54 = 326 lbs.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2946559&postcount=3


LS1/2/etc. (all about the same specs from an LS2 = 400-430 (depending what dressings/car)

LS2 makes 400 hp. Figure 430 lbs thats .93 hp/lb

The Godly S54 is 333/326 1.02, hp/lb.

Not exactly a huge difference, and considering how easy it is to turn that 400 hp into 450-500 hp without adding any weight, I would say the LS2 (LSx) motor wins.

LS3 is now at 450, LS6 was at 405 years ago, the LS7 just dominated, and now the LS9 with the TS perched up top.

That block was an amazing creation for Chevy.

EPA rates the LS1 cars with better fuel economy.

S54 = 326 lbs.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2946559&postcount=3


LS1/2/etc. (all about the same specs from an LS2 = 400-430 (depending what dressings/car)

LS2 makes 400 hp. Figure 430 lbs thats .93 hp/lb

The Godly S54 is 333/326 1.02, hp/lb.

Not exactly a huge difference, and considering how easy it is to turn that 400 hp into 450-500 hp without adding any weight, I would say the LS2 (LSx) motor wins.

LS3 is now at 450, LS6 was at 405 years ago, the LS7 just dominated, and now the LS9 with the TS perched up top.

That block was an amazing creation for Chevy.


.



Ten years old now:

http://www.idavette.net/hib/ls1c.html

I mean that the physical size of an LS1 is smaller than an S52/54. You read that all over the swap forums =).

Interesting, I should have known that. :shifty

I averaged 21 MPG over 1500 miles of city driving.
That included several trips to 150 and a few passes at the strip.

I can get 28 out of the car, and it's not running completely right. :cool

Hmm, I find that hard to believe. Not saying you're lying, but at what speeds would you be getting 28? At exactly 55-60? Would you be consciously trying to minimize fuel consumption, to the point of being OCD? It seems to me that the V8 would use more gas in maintaining its additional cylinders combusting adequately to maintain an idle, constant speed, or acceleration. :dunno

EPA rates the LS1 cars with better fuel economy.

S54 = 326 lbs.
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2946559&postcount=3


LS1/2/etc. (all about the same specs from an LS2 = 400-430 (depending what dressings/car)

LS2 makes 400 hp. Figure 430 lbs thats .93 hp/lb

The Godly S54 is 333/326 1.02, hp/lb.

Not exactly a huge difference, and considering how easy it is to turn that 400 hp into 450-500 hp without adding any weight, I would say the LS2 (LSx) motor wins.

LS3 is now at 450, LS6 was at 405 years ago, the LS7 just dominated, and now the LS9 with the TS perched up top.

That block was an amazing creation for Chevy.

And I never said otherwise; there is no need to preach to the choir, when I am a "believer" in the LSx series of motors. I really like them and I'd like to own a Z06 someday. Mocking the S54, though, is uncalled for. It is a great engine, and just as I acknowledged the same about the LSx, you have to admit to yourself that the S54 is a great engine as well.

Interesting, I should have known that. :shifty



Hmm, I find that hard to believe. Not saying you're lying, but at what speeds would you be getting 28? At exactly 55-60? Would you be consciously trying to minimize fuel consumption, to the point of being OCD? It seems to me that the V8 would use more gas in maintaining its additional cylinders combusting adequately to maintain an idle, constant speed, or acceleration. :dunno

I was cruising a bit over 85. :D

I also stomped an 05 GT up to about 115 from a 70 mph roll.

And you also have to remember, rotational mass is friction. Single, well lubricated cam with 16 valves > 2/4 cam with 32 valves.

You also have to realize that even with a 3.73 rear end, 90 MPH is hoppin along at 2200 RPM vs the stock ~2050 RPM.

It seems to me that the V8 would use more gas in maintaining its additional cylinders combusting adequately to maintain an idle, constant speed, or acceleration. :dunno





You've got to think about the volumetric efficiency of the engine for a given rev range at cruising speed. A 100hp/L 8000rpm I6 with HP peak at redline may well chug more gas at a low-rpm cruise speed than a big diaplcement V8 behemoth, even despite very sophisticated systems like Double Vanos on the I6. That's one reason the new S85 V10s yield single digit mpg in the city. They're operating so far from their peak volumetric efficiency when accelerating under load at 2 or 3k rpm that you might as well just be pissing gas into the air.

I was cruising a bit over 85. :D

I also stomped an 05 GT up to about 115 from a 70 mph roll.

And you also have to remember, rotational mass is friction. Single, well lubricated cam with 16 valves > 2/4 cam with 32 valves.

You also have to realize that even with a 3.73 rear end, 90 MPH is hoppin along at 2200 RPM vs the stock ~2050 RPM.

Does this smaller amount of friction really outweigh (by the way, you are suggesting that, quite paradoxically, the old pushrod technology is actually more efficient than the new DOHC design) the otherwise more efficient engine with almost half the displacement, two less cylinders, and a newer design?

You've got to think about the volumetric efficiency of the engine for a given rev range at cruising speed. A 100hp/L 8000rpm I6 with HP peak at redline may well chug more gas at a low-rpm cruise speed than a big diaplcement V8 behemoth, even despite very sophisticated systems like Double Vanos on the I6. That's one reason the new S85 V10s yield single digit mpg in the city. They're operating so far from their peak volumetric efficiency when accelerating under load at 2 or 3k rpm that you might as well just be pissing gas into the air.

This doesn't make sense. Why would the smaller engine consume more gas at identical revs than the larger one?

Does this smaller amount of friction really outweigh (by the way, you are suggesting that, quite paradoxically, the old pushrod technology is actually more efficient than the new DOHC design) the otherwise more efficient engine with almost half the displacement, two less cylinders, and a newer design?



This doesn't make sense. Why would the smaller engine consume more gas at identical revs than the larger one?
It isn't identical revs for one. At 85 you are turning over 2200 RPM's your overdrive is nothing near what the LS1 can pull because you don't have LS1 torque.

Smaller engine can flow more (see head design). You have a better flowing engine, meaning that although it only has 3.2 liters of displacement it can flow the equivalent of say 4.0 liters of displacement. Combined with 60 degrees intake advance and 45 exhaust advance, the cam timing isn't exactly set up for fuel economy. Further hindering the S54 from being an economy motor is that stiffer valve springs, etc. while making the engine rev out more and capable of more peak hp as a result, also add more friction and loss of torque in the bottom end.

You are getting stuck on DOHC engines as being breakthroughs in the world of mechanical engineering. They really aren't. The pro to a DOHC engine like the S54 is that it is able to have continuously variable timing on every component of the engine (fuel, ignition, cam timing etc.) where a pushrod engine has completely fixed cam timing and cannot vary the exhaust lobes from the intake lobes to change the overlap.

This is why an LS2 has a noticably lumpy idle, and why the S54 doesn't the S54 can pull the cams back to idle better, and advance them to run out better up top. However, the S54 loses a lot in friction because of this, makes it more civilized feeling, but far from more powerful or efficient as most would think.

A cammed motor (crazy cams at least) will barely idle and will rail through the upper revs because it has cam timing similar to an S54 above the VANOS step.

Don't consider the S54 more efficient. There is no arguement that I can make calling it more effiicient, more sophisticated, complicated, expensive, yes. Efficiency isn't its strong point. Hell - its an iron block so that it could be made shorter in length, strong arguement for its use over the N54 in the Z4m....

I respect the S54, I am just tired of reading what a great engine it is. Personally I like an S38b38 much more, we just never got them stateside.

Does this smaller amount of friction really outweigh (by the way, you are suggesting that, quite paradoxically, the old pushrod technology is actually more efficient than the new DOHC design) the otherwise more efficient engine with almost half the displacement, two less cylinders, and a newer design?


Yeah, I am suggesting it. The simplicity in the LS1 design is amazing. I will say it is more efficient than the bulky heavier I6 with many more moving parts.

The LS1 can breeze by pulling 2-3k RPMs, the I6 has to use a little more force to cruise through because it does lack the displacement.

I dont know too much about all of this, but from my experience driving the cars, the bmws can rev much higher and feel so much smoother, but HAVE TO BE in the upper RPM to make power. (Even my 4.4L v8 has to be in the upper rpm compared to an LSx engine)

And as for fuel economy, a c6 z06 gets better fuel mileage than my 540i with much more displacement and a LOT more horsepower.

The LSx engines vs. the 6s don't rev as high and don't run quite as smooth, but who cares? That's not the point of them.

I dont know too much about all of this, but from my experience driving the cars, the bmws can rev much higher and feel so much smoother, but HAVE TO BE in the upper RPM to make power. (Even my 4.4L v8 has to be in the upper rpm compared to an LSx engine)

And as for fuel economy, a c6 z06 gets better fuel mileage than my 540i with much more displacement and a LOT more horsepower.

The LSx engines vs. the 6s don't rev as high and don't run quite as smooth, but who cares? That's not the point of them.

Driven any of the new LSx equiped cars lately? They are INCREDIBLY smooth!:eek: My GTO amazes me every day, and before anyone asks YES I have driven plenty of german cars.

In fact, I actually was contemplating trading the GTO in on a new Z4 M coupe. I was over at bmw of fairfax a few weeks ago test driving one and was not impressed at all. The motor was extremely peaky, made NO power under 5,000 rpm. Also, it was extremely loud and rattly sounding...to the point where I couldn't even stand to listen to it.:( My GTO is a MUCH smoother, quieter, more comfortable, more refined ride. Also, it was sad that the fit and finish and interior parts used on that $59,000 car were sub par when compared to my GTO.

With the mods listed in my sig i make in the 460 RWHP range, and when i cruise 75-80 MPH i still pull between 27-30 MPG.

My car isnt a daily driver, so when i do drive it, i drive it hard, and i still average 19 MPG.

As for the S motors vs the LSx motors debate, it all boils down to one thing for me (and yes, ive owned/modded/built plenty of Bimmers) , the s50 in stock form is one hell of a motor imo, but they are pretty much peaked out from the factory, without spending thousands on forced induction your not gonna make much more power out of them.

The LSx motor, will still making great power from the factory is nowhere near its potential in stock form, and for very little money can make some serious power, and still make awesome gas mileage.

In the end my opinion

Any newer BMW car (Body/interior only) > Most Gm's

LSx Engine > Any BMW Motor

For those doubting the fbodies and GTOs in the twisties, check out the results of the runoffs for '06 vs. the competition (E46 M3) on page 13:
http://www.scca.org/documents/runoffs_archives/06-run-raceresults.pdf

Check out the results on the same track with the slower turns opened up and made faster for '07:
http://www.scca.org/popup/raceresult.aspx?event=5643&file=204

I believe NASA puts them all in the same class, too.

The GTO interior, while better than standard GM, doesn't even approach the E46 M3.

I would like to clarify for this thread that when i was referring to the LS1 not the LT1. They both essentially the same engine. Seeing a 5.7 Liter V8 push out 275 HP like they did in the 90's was pitiful. Now the game is on the new LT Ls's whatever, are putting out the power that's expected imo.

I would like to clarify for this thread that when i was referring to the LS1 not the LT1. They both essentially the same engine. Seeing a 5.7 Liter V8 push out 275 HP like they did in the 90's was pitiful. Now the game is on the new LT Ls's whatever, are putting out the power that's expected imo.

LT1 and LS1 are not essentially the same engine, they share couple common parts internally (rods), but they are COMPLETELY different, The LT1 is not even in the same league as the LS1

LT1 and LS1 are not essentially the same engine, they share couple common parts internally (rods), but they are COMPLETELY different, The LT1 is not even in the same league as the LS1

Hell I thought the only carryover where the main bearings. :cool

Hell I thought the only carryover where the main bearings. :coolIts pushrod so its essentially the same :devillook

I hate you GM guys. <3

I hate you GM guys. <3


You just want 4 more cylinders.

Driven any of the new LSx equiped cars lately? They are INCREDIBLY smooth!:eek: My GTO amazes me every day, and before anyone asks YES I have driven plenty of german cars.

In fact, I actually was contemplating trading the GTO in on a new Z4 M coupe. I was over at bmw of fairfax a few weeks ago test driving one and was not impressed at all. The motor was extremely peaky, made NO power under 5,000 rpm. Also, it was extremely loud and rattly sounding...to the point where I couldn't even stand to listen to it.:( My GTO is a MUCH smoother, quieter, more comfortable, more refined ride. Also, it was sad that the fit and finish and interior parts used on that $59,000 car were sub par when compared to my GTO.

The last two cars I have driven had the LS2. One was a LS2 GTO (06) and one was a 2006 chevy SSR (Fathers truck. I hate it. lol) IMO, my 540 engine feels quite a bit smoother than both of them (lets not forget torqueless), and I do remember it running smoother than my I6 bimmer (I haven't driven my 528i in a while since it needs a headgasket and it's too rainy now to do the work :() Although, I am glad that we are on the same page about having the rev the I6s up to get any power. Once VANOS kicks in, they aren't so smooth anymore. lol

You just want 4 more cylinders.

;) You mean 2 more..

Wow, serious dick measurements going on.

Sorry, Potiacs suck. Your car is fast, I'll give you that, but in terms of luxury, enjoyment, and vag factor, I'll still go with an BMW M car.

I can't get an e46 m3 owner to wave to me in an e36 m3 and you want them to wave at pontiacs. :lol . He either knew he was going to get killed,girlie won't let him race (happens to me a lot) or like said has speeding tickets .etc
not every enthusiast races on the street , actually more don't than do .:shifty

lol @ ohnoes.

Does this smaller amount of friction really outweigh (by the way, you are suggesting that, quite paradoxically, the old pushrod technology is actually more efficient than the new DOHC design) the otherwise more efficient engine with almost half the displacement, two less cylinders, and a newer design?

This doesn't make sense. Why would the smaller engine consume more gas at identical revs than the larger one?

Weird, isn't it? :)

No offense, but I think it's ironic that this very same story could seem so different from the prospective of the other car. Think about the other driver posting a thread...

"I was cruising along with my girl in the M the other day, and this ***hat in a GTO pulls up next to me, revving up, lunging forward and trying to bait me to race. I don't need any more tickets, and i'd rather not get killed street racing, so I just ignored him, as not to antagonize anything, in hopes he would go away. Finally, he gave up and sped off..."

And the comments that would follow:

"Yeah, people always feel like they have to prove themselves when they see the ///M"

"What a jack***, why even waste the gas? You'd kill him in the twisties"

"Way to go man...you got home safely, and parked your BMW. He drove home in a Pontiac"

It could go down in that very same way around here.

Now, i'm not dogging the GTO, I think they're great cars. Hell...I ran with one in my bone stock E36 just to hear the exhaust note...knowing full well i'd get my *** handed to me. But let's be realistic, just because the guy didn't want to race and may not know street racing etiquette (those 2 observations may very well be intertwined) doesn't mean you intimidated him.

Nice car. But be safe, and don't give them a bad name by acting like a jerk when people don't want to run with you. I mean that in the nicest way possible.

-Nick

Kill by intimidation? How do you know it wasn't a Stage 3 M3 that would have walked all over your ass?

Buy it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, you drove off in your super-fast 100000hp Pontiac, while he took the girl home in his BMW M3 and got laid.

Kill by intimidation? How do you know it wasn't a Stage 3 M3 that would have walked all over your ass?

Buy it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, you drove off in your super-fast 100000hp Pontiac, while he took the girl home in his BMW M3 and got laid.

If it takes you a car to get laid, that's just too bad for you.

The GTO has a nice interior than the E46. The fact that it's faster and looks better are added bonuses.

And the odds of him being walked by it are slim to none.

It's the driver's attitude that was the problem. Just a wave or some sign of recognition would have been appropriate. Incommunicative drivers suck. They're also the ones who usually run into you.

The GTO has a nice interior than the E46. The fact that it's faster and looks better are added bonuses.

Um, no. The GTO has a nice interior, but not a nicer interior than the E46. Have you actually been in either car, or are you just a Pontiac fanboy?

If it takes you a car to get laid, that's just too bad for you.

The GTO has a nice interior than the E46. The fact that it's faster and looks better are added bonuses.

And the odds of him being walked by it are slim to none.

It's the driver's attitude that was the problem. Just a wave or some sign of recognition would have been appropriate. Incommunicative drivers suck. They're also the ones who usually run into you.

This is hilarious...this entire thread is simply hilarious but I have to take a pot shot at this comment. Why on earth does anyone owe another driver any sort of recognition while behind the wheel of a car? OH! Wait hon,..this gentleman is trying to race me....HEY, what's up dude! 2 thumbs up yea! The driver might just be saying,.."honey,...look at this hilljack trying to ruin our evening." An identity crisis Holden once was is better looking than an e46? Seriously? Wellllll, where is this Monarofab car today? I'm not even bashing the car,..I'm bashing the narrow minded comment. Lord son,...it's a plain Jane go fast car and I love it for that fact but it's certainly not an e46 and that is not even debatable. I'm an old school muscle head junkie myself but if we want to talk about GTO,..let's talk about a 389 six pack running on Uniroyal tiger paws. Ease up on the hot sauce and take it for what it is... a last gen Euro VS a retired US muscle flexer that didn't race. Right?

Wow, i wasn't aware that Pontiac is such high a class car. My bad!

Oh...the odds of him being walked are slim to none? Are you kidding me?

Hey speedfreak...whats your ET and trap speed? high 12's @ 110+ ? stock they run an unimpressive mid 13's. low 13's at best.

If it takes you a car to get laid, that's just too bad for you.

The GTO has a nice interior than the E46. The fact that it's faster and looks better are added bonuses.

And the odds of him being walked by it are slim to none.

It's the driver's attitude that was the problem. Just a wave or some sign of recognition would have been appropriate. Incommunicative drivers suck. They're also the ones who usually run into you.

Wow, i wasn't aware that Pontiac is such high a class car. My bad!

Oh...the odds of him being walked are slim to none? Are you kidding me?

Hey speedfreak...whats your ET and trap speed? high 12's @ 110+ ? stock they run an unimpressive mid 13's. low 13's at best.

Can you just shut up already.

Add another 335 fanboy to the list. You're like a GTI 1.8t owner. "I have a turbo, I'm the fastest thing on four wheels."

People are trying to have a normal conversation in here and you, as in other threads, come in and start putting down cars, etc.



The 6.0 GTO is a great car that would walk an M3 from a roll stock for stock. Big deal, get over it.

Can you just shut up already.

Add another 335 fanboy to the list. You're like a GTI 1.8t owner. "I have a turbo, I'm the fastest thing on four wheels."

People are trying to have a normal conversation in here and you, as in other threads, come in and start putting down cars, etc.



The 6.0 GTO is a great car that would walk an M3 from a roll stock for stock. Big deal, get over it.

so true

Whats up, troll?

Last time I checked this IS A BMW FORUM FOR BMW FANS. you don't even own one, so don't get so worked up about it.

take it easy, man...relax...take a deep breath...you're going to give yourself a heart attack. (not that it would be a bad thing in your situation...)

Can you just shut up already.

Add another 335 fanboy to the list. You're like a GTI 1.8t owner. "I have a turbo, I'm the fastest thing on four wheels."

People are trying to have a normal conversation in here and you, as in other threads, come in and start putting down cars, etc.



The 6.0 GTO is a great car that would walk an M3 from a roll stock for stock. Big deal, get over it.

Last time I checked this IS A BMW FORUM FOR BMW FANS.

so? :confused

Orxan, are you a self-hating BMW owner? IIRC, you did state that you wanted some other car over your 540i. Maybe you should just go and get it. You seem to put down BMWs even when it isn't warranted... it's rather ridiculous. You're actually siding with gti1689, who has demonstrated his dislike of BMWs before. A GTO, while faster than the E46 M3, will not "walk" it in the conventional sense of the word. According to all the times I've seen, it will be very, very close until high speeds, when the GTO will show its LS1 V8 power and take the M3.

Orxan, are you a self-hating BMW owner? IIRC, you did state that you wanted some other car over your 540i. Maybe you should just go and get it. You seem to put down BMWs even when it isn't warranted... it's rather ridiculous. You're actually siding with gti1689, who has demonstrated his dislike of BMWs before. A GTO, while faster than the E46 M3, will not "walk" it in the conventional sense of the word. According to all the times I've seen, it will be very, very close until high speeds, when the GTO will show its LS1 V8 power and take the M3.

Please stop magazine racing lol.

Orxan, are you a self-hating BMW owner? IIRC, you did state that you wanted some other car over your 540i. Maybe you should just go and get it. You seem to put down BMWs even when it isn't warranted... it's rather ridiculous. You're actually siding with gti1689, who has demonstrated his dislike of BMWs before. A GTO, while faster than the E46 M3, will not "walk" it in the conventional sense of the word. According to all the times I've seen, it will be very, very close until high speeds, when the GTO will show its LS1 V8 power and take the M3.

How did I put down the BMW??? :confused I did not say I wanted other car over mine, otherwise I would've gotten that one, wouldnt I? I said when I was looking for a car, 02-03 Maximas were on my list as well as few other vehicles in that price range. I love Bimmers (with the capital "B" that is) and they are GREAT CARS. As a matter of fact I'll pick a versatility, quality, power, practicality, fun and so much more that an E46 M3 or an E90 335i, or an E39 M5 provides over anything that moves on the road today (maybe aside from an Evo). But unfortunately I'm not a fanboy :rolleyes

P.S. Honestly, I dont read every single thread in here, so I don't know who has done what before. But I agree with gti1689 about his comment, what can I say? =)

Please stop magazine racing lol.

What do you propose instead? You don't have to magazine race to know this. Look on dragtimes.com or compare timeslips from M3forum/E46fanatics and the LS1gto.com (they aren't just LS1's)/other Pontiac forums. I know it's convenient to selectively tell someone not to bench race, but it's like telling someone not to speed. Everyone does it. It's the easiest way to judge how plausible something is, and to debunk common myths.

Whats up, troll?

Last time I checked this IS A BMW FORUM FOR BMW FANS. you don't even own one, so don't get so worked up about it.

take it easy, man...relax...take a deep breath...you're going to give yourself a heart attack. (not that it would be a bad thing in your situation...)

Blah blah blah I didn't actually read the post I commented on, so I chose to make dumb retorts that weren't even close to being funny blah blah blah

It's interesting, every fanboy has almost the same retort (you don't own a bmw, troll, etc).

Orxan, are you a self-hating BMW owner? IIRC, you did state that you wanted some other car over your 540i. Maybe you should just go and get it. You seem to put down BMWs even when it isn't warranted... it's rather ridiculous. You're actually siding with gti1689, who has demonstrated his dislike of BMWs before. A GTO, while faster than the E46 M3, will not "walk" it in the conventional sense of the word. According to all the times I've seen, it will be very, very close until high speeds, when the GTO will show its LS1 V8 power and take the M3.
It's okay if he seems to actually look at things without bias. Should every BMW owner be a rabid defender of the marque in every argument?

It seems that the ohnoes Gestapo doesn't allow anyone to voice an opinion that goes against BMW. If so, their BMW loyalty/ownership will be questioned or they will be labeled a troll.


What happened to the idea of being a car enthusiast and not just a BMW fanboy?

You're actually siding with gti1689, who has demonstrated his dislike of BMWs before.
Just because I don't gobble up the BMW > everything else BS doesn't mean I don't like them. I've owned BMW's; I just don't have any delusions about what they are and are not.

It's the easiest way to judge how plausible something is, and to debunk common myths.
The GTO being faster than the M3 is not a common myth, it's a reality. From a roll, the GTO will be faster. From a stop it might be a little closer until the GTO overcomes its weight and the LS2 top end comes into play.

Wow, i wasn't aware that Pontiac is such high a class car. My bad!

Oh...the odds of him being walked are slim to none? Are you kidding me?

Hey speedfreak...whats your ET and trap speed? high 12's @ 110+ ? stock they run an unimpressive mid 13's. low 13's at best.

lol, you guys are killing me. I feel like I'm reading about a squable between 4th graders. I don't think I'll be coming back to this thread. All the arguing and bickering is too much for me.:eyecrazy

As far as you FusionX.....I haven't run the car lately, but bone stock I ran 13.@109 don't focus on the ET's, look at the trap speed. The GTO's are handicapped by wheel hop issues, and unless taken care of with some suspension mods, the times will suffer. They're just a bit of a bare to launch.

So to answer your question....I'd say I'm good for a bit more than 110mph traps. Oh, and the dyno numbers aren't current either.:evil2

I'm just surprised that there are people out there who actually think the GTO's interior is better than the E46 M3s...

Yeah, it was the best GM interior when it came out and is damn nice, but the E46 M3 is better in terms of... well... everything.

I agree. GTO's interior is by far the best interior from pontiac i've ever seen, but still not as good as an E46 M3.

Well, aside from all this pointless and idiotic bickering, I just wanted to say that I drive on 50 all the time, and although it is probably a bad spot for racing, I would've raced you knowing that I'd get my butt whooped (in either a E46 325i Sport or a E34 535i, lol).

Um, no. The GTO has a nice interior, but not a nicer interior than the E46. Have you actually been in either car, or are you just a Pontiac fanboy?


I have driven a few of both cars. (Read: 2 GTOs and 10 or so E46 M3s)The GTO interior was MUCH nicer to me than any 3 series interior except some of the new 335s. I rather like the E92 interior.

I have driven a few of both cars. (Read: 2 GTOs and 10 or so E46 M3s)The GTO interior was MUCH nicer to me than any 3 series interior except some of the new 335s. I rather like the E92 interior.

I guess your standards are a little bit abnormal then...

This:

http://www.erikporter.com/temp/GTO/IMG_0913.jpg

is nicer than this?

http://www.vacmotorsports.com/jpg/Tony%20Ioele%202002%20M3%20344.jpg

(Ignore racing seat harnesses)

You're crazy. :confused

I prefer BMW interiors. Domestic car ergonomics don't seem to feel right for me.

I guess your standards are a little bit abnormal then...

This:

http://www.erikporter.com/temp/GTO/IMG_0913.jpg

is nicer than this?

http://www.vacmotorsports.com/jpg/Tony%20Ioele%202002%20M3%20344.jpg

(Ignore racing seat harnesses)

You're crazy. :confused


Yeah, I think the GTO interior looks a lot better.

Minus the shifter. It needs more side to side motion.

So my buddy Brian and I were headed up to Dover AFB in Delaware yesterday to visit my little brother one last time before he ships out to Baghdad:(

We're on rt.50 heading east about 3 miles away from the Bay Bridge for you local guys. Up ahead I see this younger kid and his girl in a red E46 M3 that obviously had aftermarket rims with big fat tires, looked lowered. He had an e46fanatics.com sticker on the right rear window towards the bottom. I thought for SURE this guy would be game for a little fun.....no such luck. I roll up next to him and downshift, let him hear the exhaust, he looks over real quick and that was the last time he would look at us, lol:evil2. I tried baiting him by lurching forward a few times and the dude absolutely REFUSED to make eye contact with us. He then proceeded to go about 40-45mph on the 55 or 65mph hwy and wouldn't get next to me again. Oh well.....I didn't want to be a dick so I just threw it into 6th and cruised ahead.

I'd say a kill by default?????:D

So you didn't want to be a dick but you tried to race a car that has like 100whp less than you ?

I guess your standards are a little bit abnormal then...

You're crazy. :confused

x100. But it does LOOK nice, though.

Even comparing features. Can't even get Nav, dual zone climate control (not positive on that one), no sunroof, less seat adjustability, a rubbery shifter, a rubbery turn signal stalk, extra small trunk, etc.

The BMW (and Audi) interiors are pretty much the world standard. Upgraded GM interiors are hardly ranked among them.

So you didn't want to be a dick but you tried to race a car that has like 100whp less than you ?

LOL, like I said....he obviously LOOKED to be modded, so I had NO idea what he had. For all I knew he could have had a supercharger. Do NOT try to give me some guilt trip for "picking" on a a modded E46 M3, because he was a MORE than worthy opponent.:rolleyes

Yeah, I think the GTO interior looks a lot better.

Minus the shifter. It needs more side to side motion.

Why is the GTO interior pink? Do they have that specialy made for gay people?

Yeah, I think the GTO interior looks a lot better.

Minus the shifter. It needs more side to side motion.

Please go back to LS1tech or whatever Pontiac forum you post on... you're obviously too clouded by your own obsession with Pontiacs to concede facts.

Yeah, I think the GTO interior looks a lot better.

Minus the shifter. It needs more side to side motion.


Sit in both and run your hand across the materials. The GTO, stereo area in particular, is... well, the best from GM but still a ways to go!

Sit in both and run your hand across the materials. The GTO, stereo area in particular, is... well, the best from GM but still a ways to go!

I love how these threads degrade into the old interior argument... I had a 540i/6 that had a nice interior, kept me real comfortable waiting for the tow truck the 3 times it left me stranded on the side of the roadway with electrical problems.

So basically it sounds like this - my Bimmer is slower, handles worse, and has lower dependability ratings, but at least my interior will keep me cozy while waiting for the tow back to a BMW dealership.

I love how these threads degrade into the old interior argument... I had a 540i/6 that had a nice interior, kept me real comfortable waiting for the tow truck the 3 times it left me stranded on the side of the roadway with electrical problems.

So basically it sounds like this - my Bimmer is slower, handles worse, and has lower dependability ratings, but at least my interior will keep me cozy while waiting for the tow back to a BMW dealership.

:rofl

I love how these threads degrade into the old interior argument... I had a 540i/6 that had a nice interior, kept me real comfortable waiting for the tow truck the 3 times it left me stranded on the side of the roadway with electrical problems.

So basically it sounds like this - my Bimmer is slower, handles worse, and has lower dependability ratings, but at least my interior will keep me cozy while waiting for the tow back to a BMW dealership.

Why are you here? If you don't like BMWs (it's not like American cars haven't had their share of problems; thinking otherwise is just pure ignorance :rofl), gtfo and go to LS1tech.

Why are you here? If you don't like BMWs (it's not like American cars haven't had their share of problems; thinking otherwise is just pure ignorance :rofl), gtfo and go to LS1tech.

Get bent out of shape? Did I piss in your Wheaties? I actually do like BMW's, I was just stating that the degradation of threads into interior design wars makes it seem like...

So basically it sounds like this - my Bimmer is slower, handles worse, and has lower dependability ratings, but at least my interior will keep me cozy while waiting for the tow back to a BMW dealership.

Reading comprehension from an 18 year old...

I love how these threads degrade into the old interior argument... I had a 540i/6 that had a nice interior, kept me real comfortable waiting for the tow truck the 3 times it left me stranded on the side of the roadway with electrical problems.

So basically it sounds like this - my Bimmer is slower, handles worse, and has lower dependability ratings, but at least my interior will keep me cozy while waiting for the tow back to a BMW dealership.

handles worse? lower dependability rating? 3.2L I6 slower than a 6.0L V8? What are u smokin? Pass it on

handles worse? lower dependability rating? 3.2L I6 slower than a 6.0L V8? What are u smokin? Pass it on

Jeez, maybe I should just give up on you guys? Re-read what I wrote, I said it makes it seem that way.

BTW the LS2 GTO car is faster than the S54 M3, all European manufacturers are being rated lower in dependability, etc. etc. But it isn't about that, it was about degrading a thread into an argument over interior!

BTW the LS2 in any car is faster than the S54

Incorrect.......

Two words..........Trailblazer SS

Edit: The Trailblazer isn't a car, but oh well.......

Jeez, maybe I should just give up on you guys? Re-read what I wrote, I said it makes it seem that way.

BTW the LS2 GTO car is faster than the S54 M3, all European manufacturers are being rated lower in dependability, etc. etc. But it isn't about that, it was about degrading a thread into an argument over interior!


Noone denies the fact that 6L GTO is faster than a 3.2L E46 M3, but u give BMW 5L in its M5/M6 or even 4L in its E92 M3 and they will rape GTO like there's no tommorow. Handlingwise, Im not so sure GTO will outhandle an E46 M3. As far as reliability goes, u cant generalize EUROPEANS. Remember ur supposedly reliable Vette and Camaro are a Chevrolet lineup, without even generalizing DOMESTICS I can say that all the way uptill 2004 GM models sucked qualitywise

P.S. I can see where ur coming from with the interior thing and I agree, its foolish to turn it into "whos got the better interior" crap

Yeah, I think the GTO interior looks a lot better.Minus the shifter.* It needs more side to side motion.The GTO is def. light years ahead of any othe GM of its generation but quality is key in this comparison. Having both in the family, our GTO can catch more attention with its blue gauges, bright leather etc. etc. but quality is everything and its still a rental car dressed up in semi-good looking material once your sitting in it. The seats, switch gear, buttons, and materials just reeks of Hertz...even though it is a huge step up. The M3 feels like you spent that extra $. Now if we were arguing rear comfort..hardly any coupe compares to a GTO.

Get bent out of shape? Did I piss in your Wheaties? I actually do like BMW's, I was just stating that the degradation of threads into interior design wars makes it seem like...



Reading comprehension from an 18 year old...

Your existence in this forum pisses me in my Wheaties... seriously, why are you here?

oh my god

Your existence in this forum pisses me in my Wheaties... seriously, why are you here?

So he is pissing YOU into a bowl of Wheaties? So are you saying you are piss? Or is he physically capable of pissing out a human into a massive bowl of Wheaties?

So he is pissing YOU into a bowl of Wheaties? So are you saying you are piss? Or is he physically capable of pissing out a human into a massive bowl of Wheaties?

:lol

I put an extraneous "me" in there for some reason.

The GTO is def. light years ahead of any othe GM of its generation but quality is key in this comparison. Having both in the family, our GTO can catch more attention with its blue gauges, bright leather etc. etc. but quality is everything and its still a rental car dressed up in semi-good looking material once your sitting in it. The seats, switch gear, buttons, and materials just reeks of Hertz...even though it is a huge step up. The M3 feels like you spent that extra $. Now if we were arguing rear comfort..hardly any coupe compares to a GTO.

Well said and it's called personal preference. I love the simplicity of a functional interior. I guess I'm sort of a minimalist when it comes to gadgets and things that I will never use or pay attention to. I always think of Bang and Olufsen audio. Sure, it looks stellar, positively stunning and kinda sexy but it sounds like shit so I'll stick with my old tube amps and Thiel speakers. The Wheaties comment made me laugh out loud. (PS, the next Holden 4 door is pretty interesting (G8),...still on the fence though.)