Joining a series of rule changes aimed at leveling the F1 playing field and due to be enacted for the first time next season, is a new group of rather shocking cost cutting measures announced today.

The FIA announced, after a meeting of the World Motor Sport Council in Monaco, measures that will limit teams to the use of only one wind tunnel with limited times per day and week. Teams will be allowed only 15 tunnel runs per eight-hour day for five days of the week, and limitations have been placed on the wind speed allowed, as well as the scale of the model.


The FIA has also banned straight-line aerodynamic testing, and limited full-scale track runs to venues approved by the governing body.

Perhaps most shocking among the new restrictions, is the news that only engines that have been homologated and delivered to the FIA by March 31, 2008, will be eligible for competition during the 2008-2017 seasons.

It seems that the powers that be in F1 are serious about putting driver skill and competitive racing back at the forefront of the series, as the new rules would seem to take the biggest swipe at the richest teams on the grid.

IMO they are going about it the wrong way. If you want to cust costs on aero, then change the aero rules, rather than tell them they can't drive for new innovative ideas. I also hate the engine freeze.

If Formula 1 isn't going to drive new innovation, they why does it exist? Formula 1 was not created to be a spec series to compare drivers at face value. It was a "run what you brung" development series.

Them old farts are ruining the sport

Rule structures do not limit costs at all, they just limit what that money is spent on which means you end up innovating the negligible details rather than anything useful. This appears to be the first cost-cutting measure by any series I have seen that might be even reasonably effective at cutting costs. If you consider the rule changes by other series' (not naming any) that led to teams spending more money on stupid things (developing ways to manufacture tighter than inspection tolerance to take advantage of the tolerance) then this looks like a good plan.

Although I do agree that F1 should not have these sorts of restrictions...

Sounds dramatic, but doesn't really matter much: CFD has replaced wind tunnel testing to a large degree.

BusinessF1 predicts that in a few years no wind tunnel will be used anymore.

Sounds dramatic, but doesn't really matter much: CFD has replaced wind tunnel testing to a large degree.

BusinessF1 predicts that in a few years no wind tunnel will be used anymore.

yep, i think this is just a catalyst for a greater move towards cfd, weather they planned it to be or not.

yep, i think this is just a catalyst for a greater move towards cfd, weather they planned it to be or not.

yes, at this point, wind tunnel is to capture emperical data and verify CFD converges. Small changes do not need wind tunnel testing (though many times are tested anyway because people are scared), only large departures from pervious designs.

That's how we do it at here at work.

So what does this mean for companies like Ferrari who have their own wind tunning normally running 365 days per year? Does this mean they can't use their own wind tunnel anymore?

So what does this mean for companies like Ferrari who have their own wind tunning normally running 365 days per year? Does this mean they can't use their own wind tunnel anymore?

Without reading the rule I don't know. Can they test 2009's car all they want? How about 2006's?

I'd also say that the ONLY limit to a race budget is your sponsors wallet.

Sounds dramatic, but doesn't really matter much: CFD has replaced wind tunnel testing to a large degree.

BusinessF1 predicts that in a few years no wind tunnel will be used anymore.


NO WAY. Computers can't do that. You need a real car with a real Alonso.

/dipshit

yep, i think this is just a catalyst for a greater move towards cfd, weather they planned it to be or not.

The article on Speeds site said they are going to also have to limit the size of CFD design teams to an agreed upon number, and maybe limit computer capability.

In other news F1 is changing their slogan from "pinacle of motorsport" to "the new Champ Car".

More crap from the FIA :rolleyes

Honestly, they have the rules so tight, it's almost a spec series.

The engines are all within a few HP and specs. If you look at the cars, the only differences are Aero, and even those are going away apparently. Reliability at 19k RPM is apparently irrelevant. How "road relevant" is forcing manufacturers to have the engine CG above a certain location? Where in the car industry is bore, stroke, v-angle, etc. all fixed? Last I heard those were all variables car companies are allowed to play with, and do.

Teams that just 1-2 years ago dropped 50 mil on tunnels must be furious.

Quite frankly there is NO way to cut costs in F1. No matter what, manufacturers will spend $500M to win, because the PR will always be worth 500M. Whether its getting 1 second out of Aero or 0.01 out of Aero, the money WILL be spent. There is no limit on how many computers you buy, the speed of your CPU's, or the amount of people you can hire. The only way to is to cut the cost of F1 is to cut the size of the marketing base that watches it. To be honest that looks like the route they are taking, albeit indirectly.

If they limit to size of CFD teams, then teams will just buy subsidiaries. Honda used to contract its CFD to AdvantageCFD in the uk, then they bought the company and blended it with the rest of the team. I could see them breaking that back up again if they tried to limit computing power. CFD for lower drag, brake cooling, and engines is the newest thing to hit automotive in the last 10 years, and yet the FIA thinks it's not road relevant? BMW regularly brings it's F1 aeros into Munich to transfer the technology. There is huge collaboration with CFD between McLaren racing and McLaren automotive. Ugh. What a goddamn joke.

F1 without technology is just any other open wheel series in the world. Take GP2, let the drivers pass puberty, and you'll have F1 under the new regs.

Sounds dramatic, but doesn't really matter much: CFD has replaced wind tunnel testing to a large degree.

BusinessF1 predicts that in a few years no wind tunnel will be used anymore.

yep, i think this is just a catalyst for a greater move towards cfd, weather they planned it to be or not.

The article on Speeds site said they are going to also have to limit the size of CFD design teams to an agreed upon number, and maybe limit computer capability.



Indeed.


Teams to use no more than one wind tunnel.
• Test fluid to be air at atmospheric pressure.
• Maximum test section wind speed 50m/sec.
• Maximum model scale 60%.
• No more than one model to be tested during a run.
• Maximum usage to be equivalent to 15 runs per 8 hour day on 5 days per week for team F1 purposes. Tunnel may be contracted out at other times.
• Aerodynamic testing may only take place in wind tunnels if at reduced scale or at FIA approved test tracks if full scale. Full size testing to be subject to the F1 testing agreement.
• Full scale specific aerodynamic testing is to be reduced to 5 days/year.
• Restrictions will be imposed to stop shift of resource from wind tunnel testing to CFD.
• The number of people involved in CFD development will be limited to a number to be agreed.
• CFD computer systems will be characterised in order to set hardware performance limits but growth will be allowed year-on-year to allow for hardware / software development.

Other restrictions will be placed on Rig Testing, Design and Manufacturing, Suspension and Brakes, Hydraulic Systems, Bodywork, Weight Distribution, Circuit Testing and the number of personnel at races.

Further details of these restrictions will be given to the teams at a meeting on 11 January 2008 and detailed regulations based on these principles will be put forward at the spring meeting of the WMSC.

The Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS), to be introduced in 2009, will continue to be an entirely open technology. As such, the use of any type of KERS storage/transmission technology will be permitted.

Ugh - so lame. 50 m/sec and 60% scale is going to make any wind tunnel testing kind of "eh" at best anyway since you're going to be extrapolating on so many variables, and extrapolating pretty far at that. Not even sure if I'd trust that data to confirm CFD data since you're only going to see a small portion of the curve.

Hell, they allow more technological development in NASCAR than in these rules - who would have thought?!?!

F1 is going to be the next NASCAR or ChampCar soon.

NO WAY. Computers can't do that. You need a real car with a real Alonso.

/dipshit

Wind tunnels by far are now used for validation, not development.

NO WAY. Computers can't do that. You need a real car with a real Alonso.

/dipshit

aaww, you got a crush on me sweetheart??......:eyebrows:eyebrows:eyebrows

Wind tunnels by far are now used for validation, not development.

Tunnels are still used instead of CFD for the development of certain parts of the car.

aaww, you got a crush on me sweetheart??......:eyebrows:eyebrows:eyebrows

Don't let him drive when he takes you to dinner.


/Dorifto King

Don't let him drive when he takes you to dinner.


/Dorifto King


:shifty

Tunnels are still used instead of CFD for the development of certain parts of the car.

what parts/interactions are they looking for in the tunnel?

what parts/interactions are they looking for in the tunnel?

Vortex flow in the undertray is better captured by tunnels. CFD often misses the stall point on barge boards as well, unless you're doing turbulence beyond the 2 eqn. models. Apparently that's all going away now :rolleyes

I understand F1's want to make it more competitive and interesting, but that just takes away from the sport. I'd rather watch a bunch of 80's and early 90's grand prix's than anything recent

Apparently tire warmers are going to be banned too? WTF? Why? They are cheap, and no one team benefits from them. They are a safety essential, IMO.

God the FIA are idiots.

Apparently tire warmers are going to be banned too? WTF? Why? They are cheap, and no one team benefits from them. They are a safety essential, IMO.

God the FIA are idiots.

:confused:confused:confused
are you being funny??.........

don't you work for an F1 team?....didn't you know about the tire warmers months ago like the rest of us?.....it's been talked about since the TC ban came to light.......hmmmm.......




which team do you work for Mr.M?.....don't really care what you do, you could be team principal for all we know.........just wondering what team......:shifty

maybe this will HELP honda :)

:confused:confused:confused
are you being funny??.........

don't you work for an F1 team?....didn't you know about the tire warmers months ago like the rest of us?.....it's been talked about since the TC ban came to light.......hmmmm.......

which team do you work for Mr.M?.....don't really care what you do, you could be team principal for all we know.........just wondering what team......:shifty

I was under the impression that the tire warmer rule was just a thought and not official until the recent WSMC meeting where the aero rules surfaced.

I was under the impression that the tire warmer rule was just a thought and not official until the recent WSMC meeting where the aero rules surfaced.

Indeed, the tire warmer rule is just a proposal at the moment as are slicks for 2009.

That is why the teams tested the slicks with and without blankets.

As with many FIA regs they are written like they are definite only then to be put to a vote.

You know as frustrating as this all sounds it might not be so bad. If they regulate to make the cars more equal then we will see more driver face offs and damn-it if we havent all said that is something we would like to see! The teams with the DEEP POCKETS will still find ways to spend on unregulated things like always, there will be new ways to find advantages and the FIA is forcing them to find what that might be. I dont so much care about this hell I am excited for no TC and SLICKs would be great!

I think that making all the cars on the grid equal is a terrible idea.........how is technology supposed to advance if everyone has the same thing?....turning F1 into a Spec series is a very stupid idea!!
I'm afraid that we're witnessing the death of F1:(, and I just got over the death of WRC:(:(:(

More FIA Rules FTL!!!! :(

More FIA Rules FTL!!!! :(

+1

You know as frustrating as this all sounds it might not be so bad. If they regulate to make the cars more equal then we will see more driver face offs and damn-it if we havent all said that is something we would like to see! The teams with the DEEP POCKETS will still find ways to spend on unregulated things like always, there will be new ways to find advantages and the FIA is forcing them to find what that might be. I dont so much care about this hell I am excited for no TC and SLICKs would be great!

Just limiting the amount of time spent in wind tunnel won't allow drivers to be able to get close to each other and increase passing. A change in the aero rules and boundary conditions are needed for that. As long as aero is a primary focus and the car leaves a big wake, you won't see that much for close racing. If/when they change the rules for aero, dont think the teams won't look at what wakes the car leaves behind and try to get an advantage there too. If they can keep someone off their butt, they have a better chance of keeping them behind.

As long as aero is a primary focus and the car leaves a big wake, you won't see that much for close racing.

Not true. Look at Champ car. The rules are meant to help following cars, not hurt them like the FIA's aero rules are structured.

Not true. Look at Champ car. The rules are meant to help following cars, not hurt them like the FIA's aero rules are structured.

Limiting wind tunnel time aims at making racing closer due to less rear wing development? I don't believe that.

Don't miss the second part of the sentence you quoted. Using aero/downforce isn't what does it, its the wake (as I'm sure you know). If they wanted to make it closer, remove the rear wing (this has been proposed).

Why does champ have push to pass? Because otherwise the racing wouldn't be as close and harder to overtake. This season in Champ, I watched multiple wrecks because people tried to follow too closely into a high speed turn. They lost front grip in the wake of the leading car.

I agree that the FIA seems to be trying to make F1 a spec series. That being said, you've really got to hand it to teams like McLaren and Ferrari. No matter how strict the rules get, they STILL find a way to go out and whip some a$$. The cream always rises.

I'm a bit torn. I really enjoy seeing teams get closer in performance, but I definitely believe that F1 is all about the highest technology and lowest restrictions.

No matter what, the engine freeze is a CRAZY long time! Things are progressing too fast to freeze something like that for 7 years.

Matt

No matter what, the engine freeze is a CRAZY long time! Things are progressing too fast to freeze something like that for 7 years.

Matt

That's a nod to the engine manufacturers. A little stability during a global econoic crisis will go a long way toward assuring factory participation in the series.

There was a time when every car on the grid was powered by Ford. Bernie doesn't want that to happen again.

New rules suck...this season was an amazing one without these new rules!

And the tyre warmer issue, how the hell would banning tyre warmers cut costs?? Every team allready has tons of them!! Plus drivers going out on cold tyres seems kind of dangerous to me!

I would think the manufacturers would be against a freeze. A big reason they spend the money to be in F1 is to help in development for their real-world cars. With a freeze, companies that are known for high levels of technology will look to other places for testing.

I think most people still believe that F1 is the highest level of motorsport. As we all know, you don't get into racing because it's cheap. Why are they trying to save money? If a team wants to "save money" come to the States and run IRL or Champ Car. Still very expensive, but much easier for the little guy to compete. Look at Paul Stoddard!

Don't miss the second part of the sentence you quoted. Using aero/downforce isn't what does it, its the wake (as I'm sure you know). If they wanted to make it closer, remove the rear wing (this has been proposed).

Most of the wake doesn't come from the rear wing . . . nor does it come from the tray ;)

Why does champ have push to pass? Because otherwise the racing wouldn't be as close and harder to overtake. This season in Champ, I watched multiple wrecks because people tried to follow too closely into a high speed turn. They lost front grip in the wake of the leading car.

It would have been worse in F1, where the wings are higher off the ground.

New rules suck...this season was an amazing one without these new rules!

And the tyre warmer issue, how the hell would banning tyre warmers cut costs?? Every team allready has tons of them!! Plus drivers going out on cold tyres seems kind of dangerous to me!

It's just a purely stupid idea from the FIA. It has no base in anything.

I would think the manufacturers would be against a freeze. A big reason they spend the money to be in F1 is to help in development for their real-world cars. With a freeze, companies that are known for high levels of technology will look to other places for testing.

I think most people still believe that F1 is the highest level of motorsport. As we all know, you don't get into racing because it's cheap. Why are they trying to save money? If a team wants to "save money" come to the States and run IRL or Champ Car. Still very expensive, but much easier for the little guy to compete. Look at Paul Stoddard!

+1. F1 teams that have the money will ALWAYS spend it. Advertising to that many people will always be worth that kind of money. The FIA is just pushing them to spend that money on waterpumps instead of creative engine technologies.

That's a nod to the engine manufacturers. A little stability during a global econoic crisis will go a long way toward assuring factory participation in the series.

Not that new manufacturers can run unless they get in before 3/31/08 :rolleyes