Here is my current dilemma...which new saw? The Jet bandsaw is ~$1000 and the Milwaukee dry cut saw (cold cut) is ~$450. I would think the bandsaw would be cheaper as far a replacement blades go. I don't know. Any opinions?

in my experience at the local community college the only machine that ever gave me a straight cut was the band saw.

The chop saws always flex and give you a crooked cut. The better the chop saw the less you angle is going to be.....I had a tough time with this when making some sweet stainless furniture for my apartment....

So like usual it's a money thing.

in my experience at the local community college the only machine that ever gave me a straight cut was the band saw.

The chop saws always flex and give you a crooked cut. The better the chop saw the less you angle is going to be.....I had a tough time with this when making some sweet stainless furniture for my apartment....

So like usual it's a money thing.

I'm not talking about your everyday friction chop saw (I already have one of those POS). I am talking about a cold cut saw. It uses a carbide blade like below. It is not one of the bad ass cold cut saws that are fluid cooled and turn very slow as those are $1500 plus. I have heard the dry cut saws cut straight, but have never used one in person.

What kind of cutting disc are you using in the Dewalt?

How fast are you trying to cut?

I have cut 1/4" thick tubing with my Dewalt 14" and its very close to be perfectly flat.

If you try to push to much, the blade will deflect. If you are not in a rush, let the abrasive do its job and cut, and you push down to feed it into the material but not force it to cut.

What kind of cutting disc are you using in the Dewalt?

How fast are you trying to cut?

I have cut 1/4" thick tubing with my Dewalt 14" and its very close to be perfectly flat.

If you try to push to much, the blade will deflect. If you are not in a rush, let the abrasive do its job and cut, and you push down to feed it into the material but not force it to cut.

I use Dewalt discs. I have tried pushing hard, medium, and almost not at all. The best cut I can get is about 5* crooked still not to mention all the melted steel 'slag' you have to grind off when you barely push.

I've had excellent luck with my Milwaukee porta-band. I can cut within 5deg by hand with a perfectly clean cut. You can get the base for it too. You are welcome to test-drive it to see if it does what you need.

http://www.toolup.com/Saws/Band-Saws/CategorySearchxaxNodexbx17297.html

I've had excellent luck with my Milwaukee porta-band. I can cut within 5deg by hand with a perfectly clean cut. You can get the base for it too. You are welcome to test-drive it to see if it does what you need.

http://www.toolup.com/Saws/Band-Saws/CategorySearchxaxNodexbx17297.html

I think I am going to Steve's Wholesale tomorrow morning and see if they can match the price (or come close) to internet prices for the Jet 7"x12" bandsaw. I am tired of using a 4-1/2" angle grinder with cut off disc to cut most everything. After years of using all friction saws that metal/dust smell just about kills me. I really think the vertical feature of the bandsaw will be nice too.

I really appreciate the offer for the test-drive. I might take you up on that sometime in the future.

Well I convinced myself that a slightly crooked cut never hurt anything. I figure that most of the cuts will get notched anyway. Plus if I bought a bandsaw I would be an extra grand behind in getting this car done.

Today I worked on making new roll cage mounts. After seeing a couple cars at the OKC BWM tech session a couple weeks ago and talking with some knowledgeable people (thanks Bob), I could see my mounts were not going to spread the load around. I made mounts that have a larger area to be welded in. Also, instead on me dropping the cage through holes in the floor when I need to weld the top of the cage I can just slide these out and drop the cage to the floor. Since the top mounting plate is larger I added an internal brace to help with deflection. It took forever to get these to match up with all the different contours in the floor and also to keep them level.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1072.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1069.jpg

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http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1067.jpg

That notcher does great work, those tubes fit together great! Keep up the great work, and thanks for all of the insight, etc. It will be of a great help when I get further along with my build.

Now if only all joints in the cage were that easy lol Now notch 6 tubes into one node...fun.

This tool makes it a lot easier though, i would highly recommend it...saves lots of time, and makes for some very accurate notch templating: http://www.pipemastertools.com/

http://www.pipemastertools.com/images/promo_text3.jpg

Now if only all joints in the cage were that easy lol Now notch 6 tubes into one node...fun.

This tool makes it a lot easier though, i would highly recommend it...saves lots of time, and makes for some very accurate notch templating: http://www.pipemastertools.com/

http://www.pipemastertools.com/images/promo_text3.jpg

You must read Hot Rod Magazine? :D

Doug

Now if only all joints in the cage were that easy lol Now notch 6 tubes into one node...fun.

This tool makes it a lot easier though, i would highly recommend it...saves lots of time, and makes for some very accurate notch templating: http://www.pipemastertools.com/

http://www.pipemastertools.com/images/promo_text3.jpg

Just ordered one from TrickTools.com.

Nice...hopefully yours comes quicker than mine did. I guess they are a hot item, b/c they were out of stock for like 6 weeks when I got mine (they being the manufacturer). I'm hoping getting to finally use it within 1-2 weeks :)

Here is my current dilemma...which new saw? The Jet bandsaw is ~$1000 and the Milwaukee dry cut saw (cold cut) is ~$450. I would think the bandsaw would be cheaper as far a replacement blades go. I don't know. Any opinions?
There are bandsaws out there a lot cheaper, and probably plenty good for cutting 1.75" tubing. Check (gasp!) Harbor Freight. I know, I know... its cheap junk, but I've used a $180 band saw form them for over 10 years, mostly for cutting tubing. Its not perfect, hardly, but I don't use it a lot and its more than paid for itself. I am finally upgrading to a bigger, better bandsaw this month, however.

A fabricator I know recently bought a cold saw for doing tubing cuts, as they make cleaner, faster cuts than a chop saw (ack!) or a band saw. Its a a dry saw and its eating $200 blades like candy! He's fed up with it because of the limited life the blades are getting, but the cuts are beyond beautiful. The step up from a ~$500 dry cut cold saw to a wet cut cold saw is quite dramatic ($1500-2000+). :( He just got a wet cut horizontal band saw for ~$1000 and its doing a good job, just slower.

Forget the pipemaster crap. I bought those ten years ago when I first started building cages (have built 50+). Still like brand new and unused. If you are joining a 1.5 tube to a 1.75 tube they work but if it is like size tube the fingers of the tube just slide by on the sides. BTW get the band saw. Ihad been using a chop saw for years and finally bought a small band saw. Chopper now sits in the corner un-loved

A wet band saw can also be left, operating by itself on its own weight, cutting thick billets. Bt isn't it a bit overkill for tubing?

good cage info here www .rx7club.com race car tech thread

Forget the pipemaster crap. I bought those ten years ago when I first started building cages (have built 50+). Still like brand new and unused. If you are joining a 1.5 tube to a 1.75 tube they work but if it is like size tube the fingers of the tube just slide by on the sides. BTW get the band saw. Ihad been using a chop saw for years and finally bought a small band saw. Chopper now sits in the corner un-loved

Interesting. Did you adjust the center support ring?

The one I have is for 1.5" and it will sit against a tube no problem. Maybe they changed them since you used it 10 years ago?

If you are notching the tubes anyways, is it really that big of a deal you have a perfectly straight cut?

Band saw will definitely come in handy, plus if it has the automatic drop mechanism, (with the little hydraulic cylinder) you can just let it sit and cut the tube, no stress from you at all.

Do you have any examples of the 50+ cages you have made?

I wish I could put up a link but the site seems to think I'm not worthy :( Most were SCCA and a few off road trucks.

I think the trick with the Pipermaster is to make sure you have the ring as close as possible to the pipe...the shorter the steel wire the stiffer it will be. It really is a great tool, you just have to compensate for the angle of the holesaw cut.

A couple FSAE teams are doing 5axis laser cut tubing...apparently, assuming their cad is done properly (most cases it is), i've heard it works very well.

I finally got off my butt around noon or so and started working on the cage. I started my marking the outline of the cage mounts. I removed the mount and prepped that area for welding w/ the MBX tool. I figured this is probably the last good time to do this before I have a cage in the way. The mounts got tack welded in place after the mount was nice and level. The approximate location of the bottom of the hoop was marked so I could start my calculations. Also, I am using a paint pen for all marks on the pipe and highly recommend it. It marks on grease and everything else.

Next came the tricky part (mostly because I have never done this before), bending the main hoop. I spent about a hour doing the calculations (its been a while since I had to use trig functions), but in the end it all paid off as everything is perfect. I started with a longer piece of tubing than I needed and marked the centerline. Due to space limitations I started from the center and bent outward. My steady rest is crude (not sure if this is the way BMW Motorsports division does their cages or not), but worked perfectly as all my bends are in the same plane. I checked periodically through the bend to make sure the tubing was still level.

The hoop then got cut the the right height and tacked to the mounts. The original location for the mounts got moved forward slightly to help the rearward angle of the main hoop. I feel the hardest part of the bending is over, but I am nowhere near the end.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1076.jpg

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The hardest part for me always seems to be the A pillar tube. A car lilke yours (tallish greenhouse) will call for two almost equal bends with a 7-10 deg twist. What I usally end up doing is making an educated guess on my first attempt. Then I use that piece (cut up) to make a template. With the template you can unbend a few degrees here and there to get it just right. Mark the template at the tangents and measure your twist then start bending from the foot. Are you doing the cage in 1.5 or 1.75?

looks good. you going to connect the main hoop to the chassis' B pillar?

Looking good! You really need to try out my porta-band - you will never want to touch your chop saw again! :D

The hardest part for me always seems to be the A pillar tube. A car lilke yours (tallish greenhouse) will call for two almost equal bends with a 7-10 deg twist. What I usally end up doing is making an educated guess on my first attempt. Then I use that piece (cut up) to make a template. With the template you can unbend a few degrees here and there to get it just right. Mark the template at the tangents and measure your twist then start bending from the foot. Are you doing the cage in 1.5 or 1.75?

1.75" .095" 1020-1026 DOM tubing.

I just finished the diagonal and rear down bars. I got a little ahead of myself and tacked the diagonal in place before doing the down bars. It made it just a little harder to get back there to weld the mounts in place. I made the mounts out of the same .125" plate steel and mig welded them in place. The down bars are only tacked in place right now. I plan on fully tig welding the down bars to the main hoop and keeping the rear lower part tacked to the mount, so I can slide the cage down off the mounts and weld the top of the main hoop.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1093.jpg

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looks good. you going to connect the main hoop to the chassis' B pillar?

Yep. It will be one of the last things I do.


Looking good! You really need to try out my porta-band - you will never want to touch your chop saw again! :D

Maybe that's all the more reason not to borrow it.:D

One last thing. Don't finish weld anything untill every tube is fitted. No matter how tempting it is, try to resist. Otherwise it's looking good.

One last thing. Don't finish weld anything untill every tube is fitted. No matter how tempting it is, try to resist. Otherwise it's looking good.

Glad you told me that. It makes sense, but what is your reasoning?

Also, when you are going to weld, go all over the place, one end to the other, spread the heat around, try not to localize the distortion. A group of tubes full welded in one corner of the car and then going and fully welding the other corner of the car will want to warp/twist the chassis.

Looks really go so far, I like how you are planning everything out. I'm starting on my reinforcement plates later this week hopefully. I was a little ansy with seam welding, I did not clean it as well as I should, I'm going to very thoroughly clean the plate reinforcements for the cage though. Some of the welds near the very thick seamsealer areas got contaminated and are fugly, but other than being ugly, they are in places where its overkill (in the corners in the car where it has many reinforcements).

I need to get my MIG welding skills up, I almost still prefer tig over it, but MIG is so much faster/easier, especially in weird positions.

How are you tying into the subframe mounts? You plan to hit the trailing arm "buckets" too?

Whats your final A pillar design?

I'm finalizing all that stuff now. I'm copying the motorsport rear subframe tie in, and tying in the front subframe mounts together, and then to the horizontal bar node on the bpillar, which then goes down to the trailing arm...kind of like this, but not to the roof. It'll create a little triangle/pryamid on each side (i'm not tying the front subframe to rear subframe):

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/galcage2.jpg

Rear of MS I am copying (1" tubing with 2" standoffs on shock tower, also 2" on RTAB):

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/DSC_2146.jpg

How are you tying into the subframe mounts? You plan to hit the trailing arm "buckets" too?

Whats your final A pillar design?


I am starting about re-thinking my subframe tie-in design. One of my goals is to try and be minimalistic, but it's hard. So that is still up in the air. I am going to finish all the required stuff first and then sleep on it.

As far as the trailing arm buckets...I got thinking about it this weekend and I probably need to do it. I have long term goals for this car outside of the racing I mentioned. It will take MASSIVE amounts of hp (750+ rwhp...thus the diff swap), so it would be best to tie those in.

As far as A pillar design...isn't that fairly common? Maybe I am missing something. It will be 1 piece running from the main hoop down the A pillar and tied into the mount (yet to be made). I will tie the A pillar into the cage with a gusset. Is that what you were asking?

I'm also taking a minimalist approach, but it depends on what your goal is for the minimalist aspect of the project. Some extra thin wall tubing won't hurt if its placed in the right area.

I would suggest thinking through as much as possible before getting more cage done back there... a little thought can prevent headaches later.

A pillar - I was referring to what additional bracing/gusseting you were doing, if any. After that FEA post recently, and some applied basic physics/engineerings principles, it seems you can get a significantly stronger structure from a very basic design. I'm going to try out a large gusset, from base of apillar to roof, using sheet metal and large radius curved tubing. Since I can't have molds made to press the halves like motorsport does, I think I can get a similar structure using a tube and some sheet metal.

Not having the roof on the e46 is a big plus...but the rear shock tower node and tubing by the firewall will be tricky to access.

Thought process is, that you are going to have to dissasemble some of the cage to weld other parts like the top of the windshield and A pillar to main hoop. If you finish weld the bars behind the seat first then you have very little flexability for making the room you will need to get the job done. Take the time to think through the progression of each weld so as not to "paint yourself into a corner". This is why some guys end up cutting holes in the roof of the car or the door jam to finnish their cage.

This is why some guys end up cutting holes in the roof of the car or the door jam to finnish their cage.

It is true that foreseing the two or three next steps is essential to the project. But isn't cutting holes in the floor pan the only way to weld the front-to-hoop joints on 360 degres? That or removing the roof skin?

After tack welding the hole cage, we started welding the A pilar-door section as much as we could (except to the hoop), then removed it, welded the inside and ended up with 360 welding everywhere. Did both sides. Then welded to the hoop and lowerd the assembly thru the holes to finish up the 360 degree welding. Raised the A pillar-door section and hoop and did the rear section.

Lee

It is true that foreseing the two or three next steps is essential to the project. But isn't cutting holes in the floor pan the only way to weld the front-to-hoop joints on 360 degres? That or removing the roof skin?

Lee

M3 Muscle is using plinth blocks. Same principle as cutting holes in the floor. Construct the cage on the blocks (tacked in), then remove the blocks and lower the cage to get all the difficult areas welded. Raise the cage and weld the blocks in and Bob's your uncle.

Similar to this Mustang we just finished up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/iflytii/roll%20cage/bharrison/DSC00694.jpg

After that FEA post recently, and some applied basic physics/engineerings principles, it seems you can get a significantly stronger structure from a very basic design.

What FEA post? I must have missed that. I just did a search and I couldn't find a thread with any actual FEA analysis on that.

What FEA post? I must have missed that. I just did a search and I couldn't find a thread with any actual FEA analysis on that.

Ian's thread (osborni) with the gazzillion iterations he did. It was titled 'cage study' or something along those lines.

-Carlos.

Raise the cage and weld the blocks in and Bob's your uncle.

You're right. I don't know if maybe we misread or misinterpreted the FIA rule book, but our reasons for going with holes (which is not as practical as blocks) was that our perception was that blocks were not accepted. According to the rullebook, they fear of boxes caving in.

BTW We are curently welding the final gussets and should also finish sanding the engine bay, cockpit and trunk in two weeks. And then up to the paint booth for two coats of white epoxy. We are working on weekends, so it takes longer than expected.

I'm finalizing all that stuff now. I'm copying the motorsport rear subframe tie in, and tying in the front subframe mounts together, and then to the horizontal bar node on the bpillar, which then goes down to the trailing arm...kind of like this, but not to the roof. It'll create a little triangle/pryamid on each side (i'm not tying the front subframe to rear subframe):



So, from the b-pillar/hoop horizontal bar (harness bar), you are tying in your front subframe and trailing arm mounts, and from the the top of the hoop you are tying in the rear subframe mount?

The motorsport Apillar design is stamped sheetmetal, I always thought that was just a gusset.... interesting.

Looking great Muscle, 750rwhp, that'll be something else. Will that be for autoX of w2w?

Looking great Muscle, 750rwhp, that'll be something else. Will that be for autoX of w2w?

No. The addition of lots of hp will be a couple years down the road. For at least 2 years or so I plan to auto-x and tracking this car. After that I think it would be fun to run this in the Texas Mile. There needs to be a BMW holding some of the records in the Unlimited Street class.

So, from the b-pillar/hoop horizontal bar (harness bar), you are tying in your front subframe and trailing arm mounts, and from the the top of the hoop you are tying in the rear subframe mount?

The motorsport Apillar design is stamped sheetmetal, I always thought that was just a gusset.... interesting.


Yea, I'm going to get the standoff/supports done and then i'll wire it up and post a picture. All those extra tubes are going to be thin (1.5x.065 maybe) so its not much weigh, and because of how they are loaded, should be sufficient.

I might try to get a tube down to the base of the Bpillar to the rtab tie in as well, it was done on an early GTR and I like how it fits.

Thats my last project for tonight, I need to cut out space for the rtab supports.

The motorsport gusset is two peices, tiny weld bead down the center. Its not only curved, but its out of plane, so its a very tricky piece. Hopefully the technique I'm using will provided similar strength (could possibly be stronger), and will be easier to fabricate.

I finally said screw it and decided to tie in my RTAB buckets. I only got one done tonight, but it turned out pretty good. It was tricky to get to all the tight spots that need welded, but I somehow found a way.

I wish I would have decided to do this before I had some of the cage in the way.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1109.jpg

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nice addition, as impossible as it may seem, can you take more pictures of that RTAB area prepped before welding in the next plate, or explain your moves.
thanks

great work, keep it up

:)

nice addition, as impossible as it may seem, can you take more pictures of that RTAB area prepped before welding in the next plate, or explain your moves.

There are also some documentation pictures here from the RRT build that I shared with M3 Muscle earlier today:
http://www.rrtsuspension.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=307

nice addition, as impossible as it may seem, can you take more pictures of that RTAB area prepped before welding in the next plate, or explain your moves.
thanks

great work, keep it up

:)

Not a problem. I figured most people were getting tired of the play-by-play. I kinda skipped a lot of steps because of that. I guess I still have people that care.:D

damn nice job.

Nice, I just cut those holes today, but mine are a bit different looking, as its the e46 m3 chassis...its very tight, and its got a lot more structure around it than the e36.

You're right. I don't know if maybe we misread or misinterpreted the FIA rule book, but our reasons for going with holes (which is not as practical as blocks) was that our perception was that blocks were not accepted. According to the rullebook, they fear of boxes caving in.

I don't like plinths either and would not use them. In my mind you're creating a punch at the weld areas. All the stress put throught the plinth is entirely taken by any weld area that exists rather than spread over the plate and mating surface material - stress is force/area last I checked so why minimize the area. Course one argument is that how much strength is the additional floor material providing? Depends on the area but I'd rather have that than only weld area.

IIRC, in the CCA rulebook what was changed regarding cages is that designs which are different from those outlined must provide documentation from the constructor that the design changes are as safe as what is required. The cage constructor must sign off on the design essentially. And then the Nat Tech steward still has the option to disallow it if not safe.

Oh, and if using plinths there must be a bottom plate anyway so it is a completely closed box vs an open box.

Now M3Muscle is not racing this car in CCA so it doesn't matter to him from a rules standpoint.

Cheers.

Oh, and if using plinths there must be a bottom plate anyway so it is a completely closed box vs an open box.

Now M3Muscle is not racing this car in CCA so it doesn't matter to him from a rules standpoint.

Cheers.

So most rules require plinth blocks to have a bottom plate? What about SCCA and NASA? If so it is not too late to add them, but it will be a small PITA.

Dunno about SCCA or NASA, my guess is they wouldn't care/check either way. IIRC the jist of it is that the rules always discuss mounting PLATES, a plinth is not a plate. But like I said, not sure if SCCA/NASA would care either way. And it would be highly regional at least with NASA. If you plan on racing the car in any of these venues it might be worth a bit of extra effort to do the bottom plate but depends on your plans. Obviously putting it in later is not very feasible. ; )

Cheers.

Dunno about SCCA or NASA, my guess is they wouldn't care/check either way. IIRC the jist of it is that the rules always discuss mounting PLATES, a plinth is not a plate. But like I said, not sure if SCCA/NASA would care either way. And it would be highly regional at least with NASA. If you plan on racing the car in any of these venues it might be worth a bit of extra effort to do the bottom plate but depends on your plans. Obviously putting it in later is not very feasible. ; )

Cheers.

Well, I think I know a way to do it easily when i have the plinth blocks out for cage welding. I'll have to shorten the Plinth blocks to compensate for the plates.

The rules books are enough to make your head spin! Can you call an inspector or the association to get better clarification rather than weld up the entire cage only to have it not approved?

Doug

Great job on this one, keep those pictures comming!

just finnished reading all of this and must say you are a fortunate man...My wife
trips out if I use a sharpie in the garage ,or leave the weed eater in there,"That smell
is giving me a head ache"...

Can't imagine the chin music I'd get if I was welding and using chemicals in the garage.

keep up the good work, im gonna copy alot of this when I get ready to do my car

just finnished reading all of this and must say you are a fortunate man...My wife
trips out if I use a sharpie in the garage ,or leave the weed eater in there,"That smell
is giving me a head ache"...

Can't imagine the chin music I'd get if I was welding and using chemicals in the garage.

keep up the good work, im gonna copy alot of this when I get ready to do my car

wtf, does she live and or sleep in the garage? Tell her to get bent :)

she doesn't bend very well;p

just finnished reading all of this and must say you are a fortunate man...My wife
trips out if I use a sharpie in the garage ,or leave the weed eater in there,"That smell
is giving me a head ache"...

Can't imagine the chin music I'd get if I was welding and using chemicals in the garage.

keep up the good work, im gonna copy alot of this when I get ready to do my car

That is partly how I am able to do most of this...I'm 26 and single.

Hope to have more done this weekend.

Tonight I cut some of the side area out for more weight loss. I didn't mess with the internal support as it looked structural the more I thought about it.

I also got the other side of the RTAB bucket tie in mount done. I tried to take lots of pictures as this isn't documented very well anywhere that I could find. It was not exactly the same as the drivers side because the car isn't built symmetrical, but it was a very similar process.

I first started by looking at the RTAB bucket from the underside. It comes from the factory with a hole in it. Since the interior doesn't have any feature that gives off its location you need a reference point. I took a drill and from the hole in the RTAB bucket drilled a hole through the interior. Using that hole for reference I marked where I was going to cut away (I actually cut a little farther forward than the lines I drew). Next I took poster board and made templates for the RTAB bucket mount cover. I traced them onto steel and cut them out. They got tacked together and then fitted on the car. Once it was like I wanted it I tig welded the front and back pieces to the top.

Next, the tubing got welded into place. You can't weld it directly on top of the RTAB bucket or it would be to close to the side to weld tubing. I left 1" of space b/t the tubing and the side. I also made sure that the tubing was completely level. You can see from the pictures that the weld only goes 2/3 of the way around the pipe. I made 4 passes around what did get welded to make a larger radius fillet weld for added support/strength.

I then took all my measurements and cut the hole in the top of the cover. I then tack welded the edges that were in place. There was a large area that had a huge gap b/t the mount and the interior surface of the car. I took a torch and heated the edge that had the gap and formed it to the interior contour. After it was were I wanted it I finished welding everything in place.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1123.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1124.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1125.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1126.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1129.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1130.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1131.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1134.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1137.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1141.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1142.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1143.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1145.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1146.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1148.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1151.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1152.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1153.jpg

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but do you have the heat turned up high enough when you're welding? The welds look a little cold.

Doug

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but do you have the heat turned up high enough when you're welding? The welds look a little cold.

Doug

They are plenty hot...trust me. It is a different welding process when welding 1/8" plate to .045" sheet metal. I have the welder setup to weld .065" metal and have to 'pulse' the weld to make sure it doesn't get too hot. On the restart of the pulse I pull the gun back a little and hit the end of the last weld to get a bigger weld puddle going. I bet what you are thinking is a cold weld might be when I get too much overlap on my pulsed welds. I had 2 burn throughs when welding the perimeter of the mount...that doesn't come from a cold weld.

Nice.

Where are you placing the tubes to/from those reinforcements?

I finished my cage design last night, removed a couple tubes, one of which was an extra support that was going to the RTAB bucket tie in.

I also changed my rear subframe tie in. I'm going to do what the GTR chassis has (note there are no tubes used for the tie in, they are welded directly to the subframe support structure inside):

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/trunkcage.jpg

Nice.

Where are you placing the tubes to/from those reinforcements?

I'm going forward to the main hoop at a ~20˚ or less. It will not tie into a node on the main hoop. I am looking at other smaller thinner walled tubing to see if it will be worth it to tie into the rear bulkhead support.

So its terminating at the middle of a tube without any nodes or anything?

I would suggest going to the node, and you can also tie it to the subframe mount with a thin wall tube.

So its terminating at the middle of a tube without any nodes or anything?

I would suggest going to the node, and you can also tie it to the subframe mount with a thin wall tube.

No, it not terminating to the middle of a tube. I am using plinth blocks. It will only be a couple (maybe 4") above the main hoop mount. I'm using 1.75" .095" tubing...it resists bending very well.;) Also, the lower door bar will be very close to that, so it might actually be a node.

Building a car is one compromise after another. I feel that it is more beneficial to get the tie-in bar close to parallel to translate the main loads that the RTABs see...acceleration and braking. As we all know if you increase the angle of the tie-in bar you are adding an vertical component to the RTAB bucket. I don't want to do that.

Another compromise...not having tubing running every which way possible to cover every single load that could be imagined in order to save weight.

Under what circumstances are you assuming forces are being applied? You said accelerating/braking, but is that assuming no lateral loads?

I would rather use triangulating smaller tubes, than one large single load point tube.

Use 1" tubing, lots of it ;)

So since I added the RTABs reinforcements to the cage I firgured I needed to actually put the design that is in my head on paper so to say. I mocked up the rear half of my cage with electrical tape. It's a little hard to see, so I took lots of pictures. After I got done I stepped back and sighed...so much for my minimalistic design. I did find out that someone makes 1.625" .035" DOM tubing, so if I can get my hands on it I will use it for a lot of this.

The RTAB bar will connect at the bottom of the main hoop. The bar from the front subframe will also connect to that. On the other side of there will be the lower door bar.

I also installed the dash to see where the cage will run.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1154.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1155.jpg

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http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1163.jpg

Interesting...I was just thinking about going to the bulkhead instead of the rear shock towers, but could not decide if it was worth it...you're making the decision a lot easier.

So, 035 ehy...I was looking at using 1.5x095, but you think 1.625x.035 is enough for those support tubes? I was looking at some of the number 1.5x065 would give enough, but not sure if it has "enough" for the overkill factor...although, now that I think about it, for such short tubes, it would be sufficient.

You're helping me a lot, keep going :) I do see some trapezoids in your rear cage though, those are the areas I would change in my design. The other thing I would change is having the tubes all meet at one node on the base of the main hoop. Even if some tubes have to be raised up 3-4" to clear, I would prefer them to all meet together. Although, I guess you could offset them and just put some sheet metal or tube gussets in to create a large node.

I just went outside, DEFINITELY going to bulkhead, and i'm also going to mount the cage to that small area on the side of the seat, the little step up. Man, this is going to be 10x easier, and should be stronger as well.

I also can do two tubes from the main hoop down and up to the rtab mount.

Instead of keeping the front subframe reinforcement on each side, I'm kind of liking the benefits of having the load support from the other corner when you come across, like here (also tie back to shocktower)

(pardon the late night photoshopping)

They are plenty hot...trust me. It is a different welding process when welding 1/8" plate to .045" sheet metal.

Considering you're welding thick to thin those looked pretty damned good to me. You're way ahead of the game welding wise on about 90% of the cages I've inspected. A large number of cage builders can't weld nearly as well as you can.

Carlos.

Interesting...I was just thinking about going to the bulkhead instead of the rear shock towers, but could not decide if it was worth it...you're making the decision a lot easier.

So, 035 ehy...I was looking at using 1.5x095, but you think 1.625x.035 is enough for those support tubes? I was looking at some of the number 1.5x065 would give enough, but not sure if it has "enough" for the overkill factor...although, now that I think about it, for such short tubes, it would be sufficient.


On tubing selection, I'd make sure that those alternate sizes you guys are discussing are allowed. In M3Muscle's case I know he's going to autox the car so nobody will likely inspect his cage but you never know when he goes road racing. Steve's 1.5 x .095 example is specifically allowed so no problems there.

You never know who'll decide to drill your cage for an inspection and then find a size that isn't specifically allowed in a rule book. At least for NASA/BMW CR the additional reinforcement wording does include meeting material specifications in it. Just a head's up.

Carlos.

Anything thats above and beyond the requirements should not matter. Its essentially "more than nothing" so it really should meet the rules no problem. All required tubes will be 1.5x.120.

At least for NASA/BMW CR the additional reinforcement wording does include meeting material specifications in it.
Are you saying that non required tubes must meet specifications?
"Minimum tubing size for the required tubes of the roll cage is:"(Pg. 67)

Yea, anything thats not required is just that, not required, thus you are free. You can argue "if it doesn't say you can, you can't," but the definition of required pretty much explains the answer.

Yea, anything thats not required is just that, not required, thus you are free.
I know that, I wasn't sure if Carlos was saying vice versa or not(it was worded kind of confusingly).

Yea, I was talking to him, sorry, forgot to press quote.

That is partly how I am able to do most of this...I'm 26 and single.

26 and married with my first kid on the way and I still get to blow money on LS1 BMWs and destroy my garage with projects. It's all in picking your woman. Mine sold her street bike when we decided it was time to have kids :D

On the subject of tube bending: Sprung for this years ago. Simply awesome. http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/

26 and married with my first kid on the way and I still get to blow money on LS1 BMWs and destroy my garage with projects. It's all in picking your woman. Mine sold her street bike when we decided it was time to have kids :D

On the subject of tube bending: Sprung for this years ago. Simply awesome. http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/

Does she have a sister that likes in OKC that rides bikes?:D

On tubing selection, I'd make sure that those alternate sizes you guys are discussing are allowed. In M3Muscle's case I know he's going to autox the car so nobody will likely inspect his cage but you never know when he goes road racing. Steve's 1.5 x .095 example is specifically allowed so no problems there.

You never know who'll decide to drill your cage for an inspection and then find a size that isn't specifically allowed in a rule book. At least for NASA/BMW CR the additional reinforcement wording does include meeting material specifications in it. Just a head's up.

Carlos.

My understand is that the tubing size is for all REQUIRED tubes. After that there is no requirement for tubing size. It is all extra and shouldn't matter. Also, you are right about no one caring. It will be a bastardized BMW with LS1...that alone kicks me out of most all very racing that follows rules to a 'T'.

Yea, anything thats not required is just that, not required, thus you are free. You can argue "if it doesn't say you can, you can't," but the definition of required pretty much explains the answer.

Right that's basically my argument. If they meant free with non-required tubing then they would say free. Go ahead and use muffler tubing we don't care, it's free! :stickoutt Not quite but you know what I mean? You're not going to do anything stupid but the next person might.

I'd get a clarification if I was going to go ahead and build a cage with tube sizes not specified.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Here is a picture clairifying which members are what tubing type.

Red - 1.75" .095" DOM
Yellow - 1.75" .065" DOM
Green - 1.625 .035" DOM (if I can find some)

I an thinkin about relocating a couple members. I'm not doing anything until I sleep on it for a couple nights.

It seems pretty cut and dried to me - as long as you use DOM tubing of the proper material, install/weld and bend them well, you can use different sizes for non-required bars.

-Mike


15. Additional Reinforcement
A.
Any number of additional reinforcing bars/braces are permitted within the structure of the cage provided that they meet all the installation, weld quality and material/bend specifications. Installation of additional reinforcing bars/braces does not allow for removal of any required bar/brace/hoop and does not allow for alterations in these.
16. Roll Cage Tubing Specifications
A.
Material. Seamless, or DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020 or 1025) or equivalent, or chromolly steel tubing (SAE 4130) shall be used for all roll cage structures.
B.
Size. For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, WITHOUT fuel and driver. Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the required tubes of the roll cage is:..........

It seems pretty cut and dried to me - as long as you use DOM tubing of the proper material, install/weld and bend them well, you can use different sizes for non-required bars.

-Mike

You can source some pretty small dia DOM tubing that is carbon steel with thin wall thicknesses. For example .250" dia DOM with .02 wall thickness. Meets your interpretation.

All I'm saying is find out before proceeding. The last thing you want to do is to have to cut part of the cage out when you're done because you made assumpions that were totally off.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Sweet build. Have been reading through the pages since yesterday. Good luck to you and I get the feeling this will become my guide/bible when I get started.

Right that's basically my argument. If they meant free with non-required tubing then they would say free. Go ahead and use muffler tubing we don't care, it's free! :stickoutt Not quite but you know what I mean? You're not going to do anything stupid but the next person might.

I'd get a clarification if I was going to go ahead and build a cage with tube sizes not specified.

Cheers,
Carlos.

Not that I agree with the requirement, but I'd agree with Carlos. Better to be safe than sorry and ask for permission instead of forgiveness. For the record, I think it makes perfect sense to allow different sizes on non-required tubes and if I wrote this section of the rules I'd be more clear!

However:
I once built a 6' length of deck railing on a section of deck that didn't require a railing (height from ground was low enough). I built the railing at a height *just* below one of the windows on the house which as it turned out was 1.5" below min railing height.
The building inspector said it was not compliant with code. I said "WTF? No railing is even needed!" and he said "Yeah, but you built one and therefore it must be to code."
I guess I didn't offer him enough donuts. Grumble.....grumble......grumble.

Cheers,
Chet

Can someone make a clarification submission please?

Well I am trying to follow the rules and regulations, but NONE of the classes that I plan on racing even require a cage (except maybe COMMA). I'm not too worried, althought I agree it would be nice to get a clairification on these rules.

As for the cage it has bothered me all day. I am trying to make the strongest possiable that is the lightest (of yeah...something about safety too). I just went back and re-read SCCA and NASA rules and I thinking the diagonal in the back was required. It is not, so I am changing it to .065" tubing. Also, Steve had me thinking about triangulation. I went back and moved a bar to fix that. I have thought about every node and possible ways of delfection due to forces it would see, and I think I have the final revision (or very close to it) for the rear half. I know it doesn't seem minimalistic, but with the light tuing weight I can use more. It's starting to look like 'teh jaffster cage'!

Colors are as follows:

Red - 1.75" .095" DOM (~1.7 lbs/ft)
Yellow - 1.75" .065 DOM (~1.2 lbs/ft)
Green - 1.625" .035 DOM (~.6 lbs/ft)

Thats basically what I came up with too last night. Only changes are the upper yellow tubes will be "red" on mine, the front subframe posts will also go to the shock tower, and the rear subframe posts will be tied together with an "X" to the shock towers. I'm also thinking of putting in a bar straight across the top of the trans tunnel...since i'm going to have a node there, a brace across would help a lot. Also, an "X" in the main hoop (vertically) can be added, with the other diagonal being thin wall. You could also go a little crazy and go from the mid-bpillar, to the bulkhead with an "X." We're only talking about tubing with a weight of 1lb/ft, so an extra 20' of tubing is only 20lbs (plus welds), thats worth it...especially for a car with a v8 or turbo :) The cage is the one place an extra 50lbs over the entire car would be worth it. Can always reduce weight in other places...

I opted to use the thinner walled tubing on the back diagonal because of all the extra bracing from that node on the bulkhead that will distribute the load elsewhere. If I didn't have those extra members I would run a thicker wall tubing.

I'm thinking of safety wise...rollover, those can take a lot of compression force, and for the slight extra weight, .120 can help a lot more than 065...better safe than sorry.

Can someone make a clarification submission please?

The rules committee went through this in detail last year. I had a fairly long email exchange with Jack Money about it when a draft rules version had the non-required bars being required thicknesses. Non-required bars do not have to be the "required" sizes.

The rules committee went through this in detail last year. I had a fairly long email exchange with Jack Money about it when a draft rules version had the non-required bars being required thicknesses. Non-required bars do not have to be the "required" sizes.

Any way to get Jack to chime in and confirm?

AH, found it, 2007:
07-0038 Mod class cage tubes Mar 28, 2007
Request: For a Mod class cage, can reinforcing tubes (such as tubes running to subframe mounting points) be made from 1" tubing or must they be made from the size diameter tubing as the rest of the cage? The rules seem a bit unclear/contradictory on this.

Appendix A.16.A reads: "Any number of additional reinforcing bars/braces are permitted within the structure of the cage provided that they meet all the installation, weld quality, tube diameter/material/bend specifications as required."

Appendix A.17.C reads: "Only required roll cage tubes must meet these requirements. Tubes which obviously do not serve as a required tube may be of different specification."

Clarification: The "diameter/material/bend specifications as required" phrase in A.17.C refers to mandatory/required parts of the roll cage ("as required"). Other (non-required) tubes may be different size. In other words, the minimal parts required to make a full legal roll cage must meet the required diameter/material/bend specifications. Other tubes are free, subject to the general safety requirements. We will clarify this wording in the 2008 rules.

Apparently it already has been clarified, but thats the official asnwer....so 1.5x065 is good to go :)

I'm thinking of safety wise...rollover, those can take a lot of compression force, and for the slight extra weight, .120 can help a lot more than 065...better safe than sorry.

I called my local steel place and they can get the 1.625" .035" no problem. I looked online at a DOM tubing chart and there a lot of sizes between .120 and .065. There is .095, .083, .072, etc. I'm sure you know that but maybe others don't. With the non-required beam stuff starting to be clairified maybe it might be more common now.

The rules committee went through this in detail last year. I had a fairly long email exchange with Jack Money about it when a draft rules version had the non-required bars being required thicknesses. Non-required bars do not have to be the "required" sizes.

Your cage doesn't look like you used any smallish tubing. What did you end up using?

Carlos.

AH, found it, 2007:
07-0038 Mod class cage tubes Mar 28, 2007
Request: For a Mod class cage, can reinforcing tubes (such as tubes running to subframe mounting points) be made from 1" tubing or must they be made from the size diameter tubing as the rest of the cage? The rules seem a bit unclear/contradictory on this.

Appendix A.16.A reads: "Any number of additional reinforcing bars/braces are permitted within the structure of the cage provided that they meet all the installation, weld quality, tube diameter/material/bend specifications as required."

Appendix A.17.C reads: "Only required roll cage tubes must meet these requirements. Tubes which obviously do not serve as a required tube may be of different specification."

Clarification: The "diameter/material/bend specifications as required" phrase in A.17.C refers to mandatory/required parts of the roll cage ("as required"). Other (non-required) tubes may be different size. In other words, the minimal parts required to make a full legal roll cage must meet the required diameter/material/bend specifications. Other tubes are free, subject to the general safety requirements. We will clarify this wording in the 2008 rules.

Apparently it already has been clarified, but thats the official asnwer....so 1.5x065 is good to go :)

However it didn't make it into the 2008 rules, so technically that expired. My diagram made it in though. :-)

They did clarify as you said with the other tubes being free so like I said you can purchase 1/4" DOM tubing so your non-required tubes can look like a pencil if you want. Not a good clarification IMO. They should've written in a minimum material requirement or something along those lines.

Carlos.

so it sounds like the extra tubes don't have to be DOM either if I'm reading that right..

I'd probably still prefer DOM/Seamless tubing though.

Well I got a call back from my steel supplier. They said that they thought they could get the 1.625" tubing, but their supplier could not get it. Looks like I am going to have to do some searching for this stuff.

I have exhausted my all my options to source the tubing. I started looking for 1.5" .035" as well. None came up. I did find 1.5" .049" DOM tubing. I ran all the calculations on it (weight, buckling, 2nd moment of inertia, tensile), and it looks pretty good. I'm going to order that and hopefully get this cage going!

Can you use 4130? There is 1.5 x .035 available.

I've almost got my rear shock tower supports done, I just need to fit in the 1.5" top tube, and then start tying it into the front subframe posts once I get my tubing order in.

But you beat me to the main hoop bending...I won't be doing that until next week (hopefully). I have to make a template for it, and then have it bent up (prob will be 2 weeks...)

I could use 4130, but I am not a professional welder. It is a little more picky to weld that mild steel, so I would prefer just to stick to what I know.

Do you have a TIG welder?

Do you have a TIG welder?

Yep. It's a Miller Syncrowave 250 w/ a Coolmate 3. I'm tig welding the cage.

(Coolmate 3 is torn apart in pic)
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN0807.jpg

Nice. Is this your shop purely for hobby, or do you do any work out of the shop for contract jobs?

I am getting spoiled with how easy MIG is though. Check my thread for the last post i made, pics of the rear shelf. Its 030, and it was 10x quicker and the welds actually came out nicer than the tig b/c of paint on the other side of the panel (that you cant remove). So I'm confident, for my setup anyways, I will actually get better welds with the mig then if I tigged the cage. I am going to probably tig the sheet metal gussets...but we'll see how I do with the MIG. I really like this pulse technique, it makes really nice clean, strong welds.

First I don't have a shop...it is my garage. I owned my own small fabrication business while I was in college. I wanted to learn to welding aluminum, so I bought an old Lincoln tig 300/300. I did a lot of aluminum welding and some other light fabrication. The whole goal was to start doing one-off turbo setups on cars. I got a real job after I graduated and didn't want to move the tig welder (w/ cooler it weighted almost 1100 lbs), so I sold it and bought a newer Miller when I ran accross a good deal. Whole point to that is that I'm working on getting a business going again. This time around I will take what I have learned w/ my E36 and the poorly-designed products that I have bought and redesign them. I'm in the process of pricing/looking for a good cnc plasma cutter. It might take a while to get up and going.

Cool.

CNCzone has some good stuff on DIY CNC plasma cutting systems.

Nice welder

Well you are doing very good work in your garage. The one we have is double but on the lenght, so it's kind if tight. I was I have one like yours double on the width. But... got to deal with it.

I did not go thru the whole thread but I was wondering if you got and answer on the plints?

Someone made a good point about the plints having to be on top of a plate otherwise under a roll over they can cut straight thru the sheet metal on the horizontal plane and rip off the sheet metal on the vertical plane

Here is my design in where the gray plates are welded to the sheet metal these plates help as a solid ground to build your plint so you can get the overhead of the cage as close as you can to the actual chassis of the car.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/rafaelnos/Plint.jpg

Thats one of the reasons I decided to go to the base of the back seat. Tons of material, plus on the E46 m3 there is a subframe brace tie in directly below it.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/cagebaseplates.JPG

I did not go thru the whole thread but I was wondering if you got and answer on the plints?

Someone made a good point about the plints having to be on top of a plate otherwise under a roll over they can cut straight thru the sheet metal on the horizontal plane and rip off the sheet metal on the vertical plane

Here is my design in where the gray plates are welded to the sheet metal these plates help as a solid ground to build your plint so you can get the overhead of the cage as close as you can to the actual chassis of the car.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/rafaelnos/Plint.jpg

They only think you have to watch is you total area of the mount. SCCA requires no more than 100 in^2 per mount. That design might be close if not over. You might look at the actual #'s.

collin, you amaze me man. i dont understand half the jibberish you said (that's probably why i remember you studying like there was no tomorrow in school), but you better believe im coming with rusty to knock on your door for a ride when this thing is done.

p.s. let me borrow the zx10 :)

collin, you amaze me man. i dont understand half the jibberish you said (that's probably why i remember you studying like there was no tomorrow in school), but you better believe im coming with rusty to knock on your door for a ride when this thing is done.

p.s. let me borrow the zx10 :)

You'll get a ride...I'll have to 'campaign' this thing from city to city when I get it done.

P.S. Will it be in one piece when I get it back?:help

I finally got time to work on the car again. Last night I got the front plinth blocks made and the right side front hoop mocked up. I made it out of 2 pieces welded together so I could use it as a guide to build the actual piece. It is a fairly complicated piece that has 2 bends in different planes.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1164.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1165.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1166.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1167.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1168.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1169.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1170.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1171.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1172.jpg

Looking good man!

Doug

A lot of sanctioning bodies require the A-pillar down tube to be a single piece from the roll hoop to the floor plate.

So the A-pillar you show in the images is for trial fitment? Not a bad idea, I ended up doing the A-pillar on my car 2 times anyway...

You have to read the posts before you reply :) he said he made it out of two peices as a template...I did the same thing, its a tricky part to bend just right in one try without previously doing it with dimensions to reference.

M3muscle, are you still planning to go to the bulkhead with that tube from the subframe mount, why not right to the shock tower? I did the "X" between the subframe posts last night, and am going to do the rest today. I had to have a local shop bend the main hoop and apillars (no bender here) so i won't have that until monday.

You have to read the posts before you reply :) he said he made it out of two peices as a template...I did the same thing, its a tricky part to bend just right in one try without previously doing it with dimensions to reference.

M3muscle, are you still planning to go to the bulkhead with that tube from the subframe mount, why not right to the shock tower? I did the "X" between the subframe posts last night, and am going to do the rest today. I had to have a local shop bend the main hoop and apillars (no bender here) so i won't have that until monday.

As of right now I am still planning on doing that. I look forward to seeing pictures of your design when you are done.

I wanted to add more side support to the shock tower, so this was a great solution. I showed a mockup, basically we're doing the exact same thing (minus slightly different rear shock support). I think it really is one of the best alternatives there is. There are many ways to tie these points together, but this design gets almost every pickup point in 3+ directions, and uses short lengths of tubing (including going to common nodes). I think the other difference is I'm going from left side to right post for the front pickup. I wanted to create a node in the center so I can get the subframe load path in basically 4 directions, all perpendicular to each other. This 1.5x.065 tubing is easy to work with and is very light. This entire structure will be less then 25lbs, and should add a great deal of torsional rigidity to the rear end.

I'm just hoping this guy bends the main hoop and apillars close so i don't have to do any "tweaking" to get them to fit perfect...

M3 Muscle.... if you are looking for M3 body parts at some point I found a good supplier recently that has M3 parts (that Certifit didn't):

http://www.carpartswholesale.com/

B010315
B010317P
B010320
B010324P
B760110P - rear bumper cover, $346

Those are the various hits I got for "m3 bumper" in their search for E36 parts, with prices ranging from $225 to $312 for the replacement front cover assembly and $346 for the rear bumper cover. Not cheapo eBay fiberglass knockoffs, real replacement OEM style bumper covers. Some of those front bumper cover part numbers included everything - all 3 pieces of trim and the grill insert, which complete the look a lot better than without (the eBay junk tends to have these molded into a one piece bumper cover, which never looks right when painted). They also have replacement plastic bumper alignment brackets, and all the M3 trim and the grill inserts sold separately. This place just has a lot more "M3" parts in their catalog than Certifit.

Beware - if you order online they will tag you with big shipping and handling fees, but if you call them directly they will knock down those prices fairly easily. I just bought a front fender ($44) and headlight surround ($12) for our E30 yesterday and they knocked off $30 in shipping/handling fluff vs the online order. We'll see how they fit but I don't expect them to be as perfect as OEM pieces, of course (but hey, "its a race car"). The rear E36 M3 bumper was a bit pricey at $400 delivered, but I think we're gonna go ahead and do that on our car before we repaint it.

We are running a 285 tire and 18x10 wheel on the front of our E36 and it was touching the rear fender portion of the M3 bumper when I first mounted it up. I used some 3" diameter washers and spaced the whole bumper cover assembly forward 1/4" and now the tires clear at full lock. Its not noticeable and didn't require trimming of the bumper cover. :)

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/262963503_QUt4x-M-1.jpg

We now have new steel E46 sedan front fenders/flares, repro M3 side mirrors, and M3 front bumper on our E36 XP car and the looks are at least "getting better". The steel flares took a lot of work but didn't cost much ($29/each fender from Certifit), but we have lots of fiberglass work to do to make them look pretty, of course. The flares are clearing our 285 front, 305 rear Hoosiers well enough in competition use. I know you had talked about maybe getting 18x10s at some point.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/261135345_swg3c-S-1.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/261133655_yQxxe-S-1.jpg

Sorry to go on a tangent, I know you're not ready for this stuff yet, just thought I'd send along the links for you to bookmark (since you had asked about this stuff when you bought the car). Keep up the good work - cage is looking good! :buttrock

BTW, great thread, great pictures. :D

Thanks for putting the time into sharing with the rest of us what you are doing.

So I'll be the first to say that I am learning all this as I go. I have small problems here and there, and sometimes train recks. I'm not afraid to share them to help others. :help

I built the front roll hoops and kept them as close to the a-pillar as possible. I test fitted the seat and put a helmet on. Problem...my helmet was touching the cage. I went over everything and finally came to the realization that my main hoop was too small. I ripped everything out and started from scratch. I built my new main hoop 2" wider and an 1"+ taller. It is a tight fit as there is only about 1/16" on the sides, but it is going to give me more head room. I will also have more room between the seat and the door bars. The old main hoop made that very tight. I also got the rear down bars made for the new hoop.

The real kick in the balls is that my friend that came in town to help me with the front hoop could fit in the car with the old hoop and had plenty of clearance between the helmet and the cage. I'm not that tall (6'0"), but these cars are that damn small! This weekend I took one step forward, 2 steps backward, and them one step forward again. Kinda sucks!

Pics of NEW main hoop!

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1177.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1178.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1179.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1180.jpg

M3 Muscle.... if you are looking for M3 body parts at some point I found a good supplier recently that has M3 parts (that Certifit didn't):

http://www.carpartswholesale.com/

B010315
B010317P
B010320
B010324P
B760110P - rear bumper cover, $346

Those are the various hits I got for "m3 bumper" in their search for E36 parts, with prices ranging from $225 to $312 for the replacement front cover assembly and $346 for the rear bumper cover. Not cheapo eBay fiberglass knockoffs, real replacement OEM style bumper covers. Some of those front bumper cover part numbers included everything - all 3 pieces of trim and the grill insert, which complete the look a lot better than without (the eBay junk tends to have these molded into a one piece bumper cover, which never looks right when painted). They also have replacement plastic bumper alignment brackets, and all the M3 trim and the grill inserts sold separately. This place just has a lot more "M3" parts in their catalog than Certifit.

Beware - if you order online they will tag you with big shipping and handling fees, but if you call them directly they will knock down those prices fairly easily. I just bought a front fender ($44) and headlight surround ($12) for our E30 yesterday and they knocked off $30 in shipping/handling fluff vs the online order. We'll see how they fit but I don't expect them to be as perfect as OEM pieces, of course (but hey, "its a race car"). The rear E36 M3 bumper was a bit pricey at $400 delivered, but I think we're gonna go ahead and do that on our car before we repaint it.

We are running a 285 tire and 18x10 wheel on the front of our E36 and it was touching the rear fender portion of the M3 bumper when I first mounted it up. I used some 3" diameter washers and spaced the whole bumper cover assembly forward 1/4" and now the tires clear at full lock. Its not noticeable and didn't require trimming of the bumper cover. :)

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/262963503_QUt4x-M-1.jpg

We now have new steel E46 sedan front fenders/flares, repro M3 side mirrors, and M3 front bumper on our E36 XP car and the looks are at least "getting better". The steel flares took a lot of work but didn't cost much ($29/each fender from Certifit), but we have lots of fiberglass work to do to make them look pretty, of course. The flares are clearing our 285 front, 305 rear Hoosiers well enough in competition use. I know you had talked about maybe getting 18x10s at some point.

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/261135345_swg3c-S-1.jpg http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/261133655_yQxxe-S-1.jpg

Sorry to go on a tangent, I know you're not ready for this stuff yet, just thought I'd send along the links for you to bookmark (since you had asked about this stuff when you bought the car). Keep up the good work - cage is looking good! :buttrock

Thanks for the info Terry! I am not sure which direction I am going to go. I am split between the clean look of the E46 fender flare grafts with the D-force 18x10's, or the Pennon Composite widebody with some HUGE meats in the rear (18x12).

What do you think the largest rim/tire combo would fit under your new E46 flares in the rear? I really like the price of those!:buttrock

P.S. You tooted my cage horn too soon!

For your a-pillar/front hoop, you can raise it higher and bend it back to your main hoop to gain some headroom.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/iflytii/roll%20cage/examples/m3-musclesuggestion.jpg

For your a-pillar/front hoop, you can raise it higher and bend it back to your main hoop to gain some headroom.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/iflytii/roll%20cage/examples/m3-musclesuggestion.jpg

I considered that option. I am really picky with my work and I wouldn't be too happy with that, so I just started over. I think I will have a better cage when all said and done.

So I drug my butt of the couch and got the A-pillar bars done tonight. Again I followed the same process as last time, and made a template first out of a couple pieces. I then took the dimensions from it and bent the actual ones. This go-round they passed the helmet test! :buttrock

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1181.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1184.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1183.jpg

So I drug my butt of the couch and got the A-pillar bars done tonight. Again I followed the same process as last time, and made a template first out of a couple pieces. I then took the dimensions from it and bent the actual ones. This go-round they passed the helmet test! :buttrock



http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1184.jpg



Nice A's :eek:

Well I got a BUNCH done today. I'm too sick to be at work (don't want to get other people sick), but not sick enough to keep me from the car. I got the door bars done, the upper windshield bar (don't know the proper terminology), and the dash bar done today. The crazy thing about all this is that on Saturday I completely ripped out what I had build (except mounts) and started over. So in 4 days I have built all this. Someone lit a match under my butt!:redspot

The door bars are an 'X' like some rally cars use. I think they are stiffer than regular 'X' bars because in the center you still have 2 tubes. On the regular 'X' you only have one. When the front A-pillar bar and main hoop are deflected the door bars take the bending load, so I wanted them to be as rigid as possible. I moved the center of the 'X' down and forward for ease of entry/exit. I also added a slight bend outward to get more clearance between the seat on door bars. It is slight as I am trying to avoid major deflection in this area.

Nothing special about the upper windshield bar. I added some bends to get maximum clearance between me and the bar. The dash bar was fitted with the dash in place and it cleared with gages in place.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1188.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1189.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1190.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1192.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1193.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1194.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1195.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1196.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1197-1.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1198.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1201.jpg

Nice. How are you planning to weld in the spots that are on the chassis side of the tube? With it being so close, can you get 360* welds?

I'll have pics tomorrow, but I also made a lot of progress the past 2 days.

Once the Apillars and Hoop go in, everything seems to happen really fast. I've got the "X" on the down tubes, the "X" on the rear subframe posts, one rtab tie in, and then main hoop harness bar and "X". Then onto door bars, bars to front shock tower, gussets, apillars, center jack bars, and thats about it...I have to try to not rush though, its very tempting to just fly through everything, but i'm trying to make everything fit as best as possible, its tough on the E46 and the design we chose, some really tight spots to weld in.

I think it will be better if you dash bar has no bends, T-bone collitions are mad serious and more likely to happen than a rollover.

Windshield bar looks awesome... :D

I think it will be better if you dash bar has no bends, T-bone collitions are mad serious and more likely to happen than a rollover.

Windshield bar looks awesome... :D

Agree with the above ... you want as much deflection protection there as possible. Also, why does the roof bar look like its crushed a bit at the bends? Is that just the light?

Looks great otherwise!

Agree with the above ... you want as much deflection protection there as possible. Also, why does the roof bar look like its crushed a bit at the bends? Is that just the light?

Looks great otherwise!

I am running diagoals between the a-pillar bars and the dash bar and upper windshield bar. Because of that I am not worried about the bend.

As for the windshield bar, it must be the light that exaggerates it. With any mandrel bender one side of the bend gets streched and one side gets shrunk. It was bent on the same JD2 bender as all the rest.

The JD2 is not a Mandrel bender. Unless you "form" the bends, there will ALWAYS be some thinning/stretching of the material. Mandrel benders use a "mandrel" (clever name ahy lol) that goes inside the tube to hold the shape while its being bent.

This is why rules state Min bending radius of 3x tube diam, because thats about the limit on this size tubing before it starts to deform using these types of benders, whether it be pushing the die into the tube or the standard JD2 type bender, which pulls the tube around the die.

This is why rules state Min bending radius of 3x tube radii

It's actually 3x tube *diameter*.

Carlos.

Right, brain fart, sorry...was typing fast (at work lol). Thanks for the correction.

Wow, you've been busy! Sounds like you had the same flue that's kicked my ass for 3 weeks (finally getting over it) but at least you are using the sick time wisely. :D

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1190.jpg

I like the door "X" you did... not a cut-and-welded "X" but a outward bent "X". Been seeing this design on newer rally car cages, and those guys tend to hit things that don't move, like trees. With some big "taco" sheet metal gusset pieces, dimpled died and tied into the X, it should be plenty strong yet still give you good ingress and egress.

http://www.alltrax-nz.co.nz/gallery4.jpg
EVO 9 rally car

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/251582821_zD7DV-S.jpg
Porsche GT3 Cup S race car

Nice work, all parts look very tight between each other. The A Pillar is nicely done.

On mycar, we dit the dashbar straight and there is plenty of clearance for the wiring and stuff. The bar is actually more forward than the original dash support bar.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj86/bmw_e24/BMWPaint003.jpg

The JD2 is not a Mandrel bender. Unless you "form" the bends, there will ALWAYS be some thinning/stretching of the material. Mandrel benders use a "mandrel" (clever name ahy lol) that goes inside the tube to hold the shape while its being bent.

Shit! My bad!

I think this is one of the major reasons the MS cages don't have bent roll hoops, they all intersect at a node/joint.

Well I got bored and started tig welding some of my cage today. I practiced on some scrap pieces first for about 15 min with the normal foot pedal. Got the welds looking really good. Then I switched out to my new remote amperage controller that straps to the tig torch. What a pain in the ass!!! It totally screws with the way I hold the torch. Nothing feels natural with that thing. I practiced for another 30 min then took it to the cage. Most weld are fine because I can brace my hand against something, but when I don't have a rest for my hand shit hits the fan! I don't have a steady enough arm to do some of these welds 'freehanded'. 2 days ago I bought a Miller DVI-2 mig welder off the internet. Maybe it was a good idea because I might have to mig about 1/2 (and maybe all) of this cage.:(

Good weld

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1202.jpg

Good weld

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1207.jpg

Good weld

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1209.jpg

ABSOLUTE GARBAGE!!!!!

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1208.jpg

I'm the opposite of you for some reason...I can TIG better than MIG.

Btw, I've been using the hell out of my DVI2, fantastic welder, especially for the money! BIG plug for Cyberweld, they are a local place here in NJ, but they ship free, freight, residential, liftgate! I don't know how they can make money, but god damn its a deal and a half!

Did you check out your rear view with the "X" going to the bulkhead? I have 3/4 of mine in, and it obstructs it slightly...but then again, its a big rear view to start, so its not a big deal (compared to porsche/ferrari its big).

The guy who did my cage had a tip mounted trigger ... for about 5minutes. He hated it, and went back to the pedal. He came up with odd creative ways of putting the pedal in the right place (2x4s, plywood, etc) and wored it like that. Sometimes, he had me work the pedal for him :)

Off topic but might help here.

Have any of you used a paint spray that is helps with rust, and is ok to weld on top of it (it doesn’t need to be grinded).... ?

I think I saw this paint in that show 4X4....
I think I'll be really good to protect everything against rust if the project takes more than 3 weeks. No?

Off topic but might help here.

Have any of you used a paint spray that is helps with rust, and is ok to weld on top of it (it doesn’t need to be grinded).... ?

I think I saw this paint in that show 4X4....
I think I'll be really good to protect everything against rust if the project takes more than 3 weeks. No?

Yes, there is "weld thru" primers. They actually also serve a purpose for coating what becomes the inside of the weld from rusting inside out. I have not tried it, although I tried to order it and it was backordered from every place I tried to order it from...but that was a while ago.

I'm the opposite of you for some reason...I can TIG better than MIG.

That's the thing...I learned to tig years ago, and just on this project taught myself to mig weld. When I am sitting down at a table and use the foot pedal I can tig just fine. It is the odd positions and angles that I have never had to weld before that makes my tig ability look like crap. I think for that reason (and time too) I am going mig the cage. I was only going to tig the cage to look like a baller. Oh well.

That's the thing...I learned to tig years ago, and just on this project taught myself to mig weld. When I am sitting down at a table and use the foot pedal I can tig just fine. It is the odd positions and angles that I have never had to weld before that makes my tig ability look like crap. I think for that reason (and time too) I am going mig the cage. I was only going to tig the cage to look like a baller. Oh well.

TIG the sheetmetal gussets in and you'll have baller status. :)

I don't know but proper MIG welds still look kick ass in my opinion. You don't see those posted often though.

Carlos.

Yep...I'd rather have good mig welds than iffy tig welds. I'm migging everything, and tigging any gussets i can.

I never tried the torch mounted control. I got this tip from an old school cage builder.

I used it alot.....

One trick is to take the foot pedal and place it in-between you legs like you would a "buttmaster". Then you simply squeeze your legs together to activate the arc and increase amps.....weird at first eventually you get good at it and it's almost like using your foot. This technique can be used in a variety of positions.

Other than that.....you have to get creative and wedge it against stuff and use your body parts to activate it.

As we all find out "out of position" welding is what separates the good welders from the master welders. Most people after some practice can lay a nice bead down while sitting down at a table on a flat piece of metal. When your body is all contorted around cage tubes and your welding upside down in a tight spot and your trying to coordinate your torch the filler rod and you amperage control (foot or otherwise) that's what separate the newbies from the grey hair master welders.

Thats why most just opt for the mig..... usually a good decision. I determined to learn.....

I don't have a picture of me doing it..... here's a pic of me doing a overhead tig weld on my cage......

http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=5223&nw=640&nh=480

You should wear arm protection...that sun burn is not just a sunburn in the long run.

How do you get to places behind tubes, where the tig wont reach though? Do you just extend your tungsten way out? Does it even produce a clean weld then? Some places I find the tig would not even be able to physically get, even with a shorty cap.

I'm happy migging my whole cage...I just need to not rush, its very tempting to rush through the whole thing lol

As we all find out "out of position" welding is what separates the good welders from the master welders.

If that is the determining factor then I don't mind being known as a good welder. I don't have to be a 'master' at my hobby. If you take anything too serious then it is not fun.

I went and picked up the rest of the tubing for my cage. The 3 sticks on the left are the 1.5" .049 tubing, and the 2 sticks on the right are the 1.75" .065 tubing. They are both light compared to the 1.75" .095, but the 1.5" .049 is REALLY light!:buttrock Hopefully I will be able to have more done by the middle of next week.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1211.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1212.jpg

How do you get to places behind tubes, where the tig wont reach though? Do you just extend your tungsten way out? Does it even produce a clean weld then? Some places I find the tig would not even be able to physically get, even with a shorty cap.


well using one of these helps alot.... It allows you to use alot of tungsten stickout...up to 2"!....and provide great shielding of the pool. It very very crucial when welding stainless steel or titanium. Any sort of "gas lense helps alot" but this monster one is pretty cool.

Granted it's size will eventually come into play but with 2" stickout you can reach alot of places. Besides cutting hole in the floor and dropping the cage or cutting the roof off this is the best I can think of.....



http://www.arc-zone.com/images/monsternozzle.jpg

you can get them here....
http://www.arc-zone.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=10_235_239

here is a cool article about Delta airline master tig welders using the nozzle to weld titanium engine parts
http://www.thefabricator.com/RepairFieldWelding/RepairFieldWelding_Article.cfm?ID=931

http://www.thefabricator.com/Articles/Photos/931/Lead.jpg

"Most aircraft repairs are in locations that require unconventional welding techniques. The shielding afforded by the larger nozzle allows welders to extend their tungsten out farther to get into those locations. If the weld is inside an exhaust duct or radial drive sleeve, the tungsten can stick out as far as 1 ¼ 2 in. and the operator will still have adequate shielding"

I bet that thing eats the Argon!!!

You guys wearing respirators while welding, right?

You are not welding 10hrs everyday, but you are still at risk. I wear a dual filter respitaotr under my helmet when welding anything more than a tack weld.

actually they recommend using less gas with any gas lense and the slow out of the torch is more laminar and more efficient and there fore you don't have to flow as much gas, so theoretically you use less then normal torch.....but wit this "moster" version.. yeah you do use more in the long run.....but it's worth it.

You should wear arm protection...that sun burn is not just a sunburn in the long run.


+1. Some of the pictures of you guys welding are kind of interesting. I've seen ones of people welding wearing nitrile gloves. Jeez. I protect the crap out of myself when I weld, and protect my eyes when grinding, cutting etc. I even wear ear protection as I probably have hearing loss already from all that bad 80s rock I used to listened to. :buttrock

Carlos.

You guys wearing respirators while welding, right?

You are not welding 10hrs everyday, but you are still at risk. I wear a dual filter respitaotr under my helmet when welding anything more than a tack weld.

I don't wear a respirator....unless I'm welding galvanized or some crazy dirty material. My workspace is well ventilated but I know i'm probably breathing in some nasty stuff. Then again I only weld once in a while......not everyday for hours on end. so I know im taking a risk.......

As far as arm protection I usually wear my dickies jacket when I tig and always grind with thick gloves and safety glasses on. I spent to much money on Lasik to fuck my eyes up!

If I'm mig welding then I have my leather welding jacket and apron I have as the spatter sparks are a bitch .....

If Im just tacking soem stuff here and there then I usually tig in my gloves and a t-shirt like in the picture...

We take our calculated risks I guess:(

http://bmw1602.lostbrazilian.com/v1/get_thumbs_on_fly.php?imgid=7148&nw=640&nh=480

I like the door "X" you did... not a cut-and-welded "X" but a outward bent "X". Been seeing this design on newer rally car cages, and those guys tend to hit things that don't move, like trees. With some big "taco" sheet metal gusset pieces, dimpled died and tied into the X, it should be plenty strong yet still give you good ingress and egress.

I was going to say something similar. I am pretty sure that without plating that "X" any decent blow will snap that weld. Not that your weld is bad, just that all the force will be concentrated on 2-3" x 1/4"+/- welds. Doesnt seem like enough to me.

I was going to say something similar. I am pretty sure that without plating that "X" any decent blow will snap that weld. Not that your weld is bad, just that all the force will be concentrated on 2-3" x 1/4"+/- welds. Doesnt seem like enough to me.

Understood. There is a lot of bracing to be done on the cage. I am no where near done.

I don't wear a respirator but I do put SPF 45 sun block on. Especially on my face. When you are just tacking things up and not wearing the helmet you get a lot of exposure and it really does help.

Idk, for the extra 2 seconds it takes to put a helmet and a respirator on, its so not work the 'calculated risk." All this stuff is pretty bad for you, and even fi you weld for 5 hours combined a week...thats 5 hours of exposure, thats a lot. I wear a respirator, gloves, jacket, and sometimes eye protection under my helmet. It only takes one small spark to get in your eye to fuck you up.

I weld in the nude, no respirator either

I weld in the nude, no respirator either

I make appointments so girls can come in and get a free tanning session :stickoutt

Just as long as there is not a brass pole in the corner of the shop.

I finally found some time to work on the car today. I dropped the cage down off the plinth block and welded the spots I could not get to. It was nice using the new welder I got this week. Made all the welding a breeze. I got the rear 'X' made and welded in. I used the 1.75" .065 wall for that. I also finished the bars that run from the center node on the main hoop that connect to the rear bulkhead/downbars. I also used 1.75" .065 for those.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1219.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1213.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1214.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1221.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1215.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1216.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1217.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1218.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1222.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1223.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1224.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1227.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1228.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1229.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1230.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1231.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1232.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l38/MoparMuscl/DSCN1233.jpg

Nice welds !

-Chris

Very nice welds.

Chris, how do they compare to yours, I heard you're a pretty good welder.

god, i can't wait until i have the time (and more importantly money) to take on a project like this.

i would really like to pick up an e30 or possibly another 240sx

What's up Mister J, Happy B-day!! I don't think I'm a very good welder but I try alot LOL.



Very nice welds.

Chris, how do they compare to yours, I heard you're a pretty good welder.

Haha, thanks ;) I assumed you were a master from the comment on my nasty mig welds lol I have to get get back in the groove...Muscle has a good steady hand though. (PM replied to btw) I prefer Tig welding, but MIg welding is so much easier lol I need to learn how to position the MIG gun though, I am still learning different techniques, especially welding materials of different thicknesses.

http://jaffster.com/E46M3/3-1-08/main/tigcaps2.jpg

I prefer Tig welding, but MIg welding is so much easier lol I need to learn how to position the MIG gun though, I am still learning different techniques, especially welding materials of different thicknesses.

I never touched a mig welder until I started this project. If