Today I decided to do a quick data log to see if i need to retune ECU, upgrade injectors and fuel pump. Now this is on my 2004 530i E60 STS Rear Mounted turbo system with Methanol/Water injection.
As you know everything we read tells us these things are a must. Now mind you, My first turbo tune was just a base line to see where I am as and what I need to make adjustment on.

So I decided since i have not yet installed my 65lbs injectors nor upgraded the fuel pump that i have sitting around that I would only do the first pull with 5psi. AFR where dipping into the 9s, So I added more boost 10psi and 9-10 AFR readings and than I turn it up to 15psi. Same damn thing.
Here is the kicker, I am running 17degrees of timing at WOT and 10degrees of timing part throttle. The other thing is I am running 110 octane race gas and 50/50 water/methanol with nitro booster. No matter whether the I am using Methanol or not it wants to run lean.
I was running 2 heat range colder and decided to change the plugs back to 1 heat range colder. Same thing.
Now I now I am making some power because I was thrown back into my seat as boost builds. As soon as AFR dips into the low 10s and 9s car kind of falls on its face.

Obviously I need fine tuning but how the hell is the 24 lb injectors flowing enough fuel to run this rich with 15psi of boost.
Can you turbo guru's please explain what's happening here.

I have sent the files off to my tuner for review and He knows more about tuning than the average guy but I am still puzzled how he is making so much fuel flow from those 24lb injectors has lost me. When he told me that my ECU was tuned for 14lbs of boost using my 24lb injectors I thought he had lost his mind or something but now that I am running the car with that tune I am a believer.
Usually when I spray too much methanol injector I immediately get a check engine code that pops up or some kind of engine malfunction code(limp mode) But that's not happening. Check everything. Leak down test, spark plugs look great, all systems have a check for good.

Since I am running so rich I know I am not making the power that car should be making and hopefully I have this sorted out asap. I will keep you posted of what happens.

You put down 513rwhp on a stock m54b30?

Sorry for not reading your build thread, but you have removed the catalytic converters, right?

So what were the numbers??

You didn't dyno bro, so you have no rwhp numbers to throw down. And 9's and 10's are way too rich, I'm not sure if I'd want to drive like that.

Theres no way 24lbs injectors lead you to 9 or 10afr @ 500+ whp. Your wideband is probably off and you're probably very lean.

What kind of ECU/tuning are you running?

Ok now that i have all your attention, Let me explain.
No i am not putting down 500rwhp but I don't know what I am putting down.
What i want a response to was how am I running rich on 15psi of boost with 24lb injectors and being thrown back into my seats once the boost hits full psi. that's the confusing part for me.
What bhp i am running I have no idea but it can not be too much running rich as hell because i am definatly not making power running rich.

Stock DME tuned with base turbo map.
Fine tuning is in progress as we speak

Try turning off the meth, and calibrate your sensor before you do that. Maybe replace your sensor too.

I have done all those things. I was running with and without and still running rich.
The ECU was tuned for 14psi.
I used the wideband for driving around but we had laptop hooked up and we did a hand held innovated AFR log just to make sure.
Before I forget to explain the tune was done blind sided which means just based on what was done to the car and not fine tuned. We hope to sort this out but even if I get the tune right(which we will) How the heck is the 24lb injectors holding up like this. Not to even mention the fuel pump. I did some I pulled up three cars fuel pump. The M3, 330, and E60 530i. For some reason my pump is not the same or slightly different and from my understand it supplies fuel using a different method I don't know how to explain but it justifies why it's hold up fine.
Please feel free to brain storm this. Lets not forget this is unchartered territory for me and most of us since no one has every done anything to the E60 530i such as this

What kind fo ECU?

513RWHP? No dyno? I'm confused.

Sorry, but 24lb injectors, 1 injector per cylinder, on a 6 cylinder engine, will run out of flow (assuming "normal" fuel pressure) before you hit 300rwhp.

I have seen it, I have done it.

If you are pressurizing your intake manifold to 15psi, and you are still running richer than 10:1 anywhere near the upper end of your rev range, then you arent flowing dukey for air through your engine, regardless of what your manifold pressure is.

Have you monitored injector duty cycle, are you looking at HFM readings to look at airflow?

513RWHP? No dyno? I'm confused.
pretty sure it was used to get people to look at his thread and help him

let the former enlisted guy figure it out for you

If you are pressurizing your intake manifold to 15psi, and you are still running richer than 10:1 anywhere near the upper end of your rev range, then you arent flowing dukey for air through your engine, regardless of what your manifold pressure is.

Quite True.

MS45.1 and Yes no dyno. I had to say something to get people to read the thread since they are not following my theard anymore.
I am just confused why I can run that amount of boost and the 24lb injectors are supplying more than enough fuel. I spent money on 65lb injectors and a race fuel pump thinking I would need to upgrade but based on what's happing even when they do a tune I don't believe the 24lbs should run me rich with this amount of boost

pretty sure it was used to get people to look at his thread and help him

let the former enlisted guy figure it out for you
I am a former enlisted guy. :confused

MS45.1 and Yes no dyno. I had to say something to get people to read the thread since they are not following my theard anymore.
I am just confused why I can run that amount of boost and the 24lb injectors are supplying more than enough fuel. I spent money on 65lb injectors and a race fuel pump thinking I would need to upgrade but based on what's happing even when they do a tune I don't believe the 24lbs should run me rich with this amount of boost
Boost is a measurement of pressure. If you have that much pressure on 24 lb injectors you probably have a significant restriction.

Sorry, but 24lb injectors, 1 injector per cylinder, on a 6 cylinder engine, will run out of flow (assuming "normal" fuel pressure) before you hit 300rwhp.

I have seen it, I have done it.

If you are pressurizing your intake manifold to 15psi, and you are still running richer than 10:1 anywhere near the upper end of your rev range, then you arent flowing dukey for air through your engine, regardless of what your manifold pressure is.

Have you monitored injector duty cycle, are you looking at HFM readings to look at airflow?

Now this is the answer I was looking for.
There must be some kind of leak somewhere or something else is going on. Now since i am running MAF it would seem that it is getting a strange reading and increasing the fuel. Just spoke with the tuner that is working on the log files trying to figure this all out and he says i am running pefect right as boost start to come on and once boost hits it leans out and the ecu is pulling timing but not fuel but after that the the tune is doing fine. he says it's an easy fix. But like you guys I just don't see how the hell the 24lb injectors are not leaning out badly on 15psi of boost. This crap will be sorted one way or the other

I am a former enlisted guy. :confusedSan Diego and Fort Hood...Hmm...Navy Seal training some Army SF's? Where did that come from anyway?

San Diego and Fort Hood...Hmm...Navy Seal training some Army SF's? Where did that come from anyway?
You give me too much credit. :devillook

I'm from San Diego, I was stationed at Fort Hood. Now I'm in Georgia, and will be headed to SD in the summer. :)

I am a former soldier ex Army last duty station was Ft hood. been all over the world and back. Somalia, bosnia, Irag, Panama so we can talk about this stuff too.

One thing I don't understand..

How can your Plastic manifold can take that much boost without breaking!!??

Can you check you manifold (pressure test) to see if you have any boost leaks, I seen this before and It would explain why you can Max out your injectors, and not having your boost all in your cylinders..

Just food for thought

Columbus/Phenix City? Don't touch anything at the clubs.

One thing I don't understand..

How can your Plastic manifold can take that much boost without breaking!!??

Can you check you manifold (pressure test) to see if you have any boost leaks, I seen this before and It would explain why you can Max out your injectors, and not having your boost all in your cylinders..

Just food for thought

Doing a manifold pressure test tomorrow.
As in why the plastic manifold handling so much boot. I can not answer that but what ever bmw made the intake manifold out of it's holding up some how.

Army vs. Navy football game this weekend. :D

well, one of the issues that HPF had with their M3 was the manifold. They actually created a solid piece to cope with the boost..

The following chart displays the maximum obtainable CRANKSHAFT horsepower vs. injector flow rate at 100% duty cycle, assuming a BSFC of .55 lbs./hp/hr. For Wankel and 2 stroke engines, multiply max hp in table by 0.9 to compensate for the higher BSFC of these engines. Injectors should be sized for 75-85% maximum duty cycle on engines used in constant high power applications such as race cars, aircraft and boats.

http://www.slowdowntogofast.com/host/upload/graph.jpg

Columbus/Phenix City? Don't touch anything at the clubs.
Although I've been there, I'm Northeast of Atlanta in Athens. I was Navy, then Army, and now am Navy again. :stickoutt

One thing I don't understand..

How can your Plastic manifold can take that much boost without breaking!!??

Can you check you manifold (pressure test) to see if you have any boost leaks, I seen this before and It would explain why you can Max out your injectors, and not having your boost all in your cylinders..

Just food for thought

:shifty
S50/52 and M50/52 manifolds are plastic

Sorry, but 24lb injectors, 1 injector per cylinder, on a 6 cylinder engine, will run out of flow (assuming "normal" fuel pressure) before you hit 300rwhp.

I have seen it, I have done it.

If you are pressurizing your intake manifold to 15psi, and you are still running richer than 10:1 anywhere near the upper end of your rev range, then you arent flowing dukey for air through your engine, regardless of what your manifold pressure is.

Have you monitored injector duty cycle, are you looking at HFM readings to look at airflow?

Perhaps all the negative things that people were saying about STS turbos is really true--they don't make as much power.

The following chart displays the maximum obtainable CRANKSHAFT horsepower vs. injector flow rate at 100% duty cycle, assuming a BSFC of .55 lbs./hp/hr. For Wankel and 2 stroke engines, multiply max hp in table by 0.9 to compensate for the higher BSFC of these engines. Injectors should be sized for 75-85% maximum duty cycle on engines used in constant high power applications such as race cars, aircraft and boats.

http://www.slowdowntogofast.com/host/upload/graph.jpg

I am aware of what the 24lb injectors are suppose to handle that's why I am puzzled about what's happening.
But i also say every car is different.
Now when i get the fine tuning on the car I will have to see what's happening. My only solution is the ECU is pulling timing as boost hits because you can feel the power once it hits. I just expected something like I would be running on the edge of the duty cycle of the injectors and needed to upgrade the injectors and the fuel pump.
I am sure once the Tuner sorts out his end I will see something different.

Perhaps all the negative things that people were saying about STS turbos is really true--they don't make as much power.

No sir, It's making power but the tuning is not right. Once thats sorted the power will stay contant. Read my last post and it might explain better why

Perhaps all the negative things that people were saying about STS turbos is really true--they don't make as much power.

That is not it at all, there are plenty of high hp sts cars out there.

Just who is tuning this thing, and how? IIRC, it is pretty common knowledge that the only people who are capable of tuning the bmw/siemens obd-II dme is conforti, AA, and nickG... who is this other mystery man?

How is this guy remotely tuning the car with any accuracy ? Are you doing full data logging? (if so, please post the logs... maybe we can help better if we see what the logs look like) If not, what measurements is this guy working with? I.E. how does he even know when the boost is coming in?

None of us want to see your motor blow up so the more info we have the better. Good luck buddy!

From where are you drawing your boost measurement?

~Fmr enlisted Jar-head

No sir, It's making power but the tuning is not right. Once thats sorted the power will stay contant. Read my last post and it might explain better why

It takes fuel to make power, it just doesn't add up. I was getting fuel cut at ~4k rpm on 18#s.

are you sure you have the right injectors?

That is not it at all, there are plenty of high hp sts cars out there.

Just who is tuning this thing, and how? IIRC, it is pretty common knowledge that the only people who are capable of tuning the bmw/siemens obd-II dme is conforti, AA, and nickG... who is this other mystery man?

How is this guy remotely tuning the car with any accuracy ? Are you doing full data logging? (if so, please post the logs... maybe we can help better if we see what the logs look like) If not, what measurements is this guy working with? I.E. how does he even know when the boost is coming in?

None of us want to see your motor blow up so the more info we have the better. Good luck buddy!
This is why it's not perfect. none of the guys mention above will tune my car and have other projects going on and it is not a 5 series. My tuner is out of the Astria(Germany) He knows his shit but it's difficult for him to do a tune blind eyed. If he was able to be on sight I am sure he would sort this out on the first tune.
The data log that i sent him today is the first data log he has ever seen from my car besides when i did the nitrous tune.
It's a difficult task to tune a car when you can not see what's happening and a idiot guy such as myself is doing the best to explain what i think is happening.

are you sure you have the right injectors?
I still have the stock injectors in the car which are 24lb injectors. The only thing I can think of is I got maybe 30lb injectors but that is hardly unlikely.

jesus I sure hope you dont pop that motor...

jesus I sure hope you dont pop that motor...
Me too
But believe it or not every car that gets a custom tune will see stuff like this. once the car is tuned it makes life just that much better. I know that car is going to make some serious power

Post up your data logs. And personally I wouldn't drive the car like that.

Post up your data logs. And personally I wouldn't drive the car like that.
Agreed, theres no way to know/confirm what your AFR's are! That boost level with such a small injector doesn't seem correct. I wouldn't run more then a bar with 42lbs. injectors let alone 24lbs. injectors!

See attached file. I tried to save it as a txt file so it would load up

You should see all three pulls

Agreed, theres no way to know/confirm what your AFR's are! That boost level with such a small injector doesn't seem correct. I wouldn't run more then a bar with 42lbs. injectors let alone 24lbs. injectors!He is using some sort of wideband to log with... I think.



A BLANK TEXT FILE? How useful do you think that will be? Just post up the .log or whatever. What type of wideband are you using?

Was jesus himself driving the car on the dyno? Did chuck norris tune your ecu?

^^ Lawlz, Chuck Norris jokes :p

He is using some sort of wideband to log with... I think.



A BLANK TEXT FILE? How useful do you think that will be? Just post up the .log or whatever. What type of wideband are you using?

The file is too large because i had to upload it as a text file which apparently did not work. I will try something else give me a minute.

Try my Gmail address.

My prediction says that your ecu is automatically pulling mass timing out while you're in boost to compensate for the knock which is occurring. This then causes low efficiency and low mass airflow through the turbo/engine, causing an artificially lower afr. It's a fact that when you increase timing, the afr will raise a fair amount. I have seen and done it on "the" dyno.

Reader's digest: Put some bigger injectors in and get it tuned up right to see the real fruits of your labor. It may feel fast now, but it will be a totally different beast with proper timing. :)

Ben

My prediction says that your ecu is automatically pulling mass timing out while you're in boost to compensate for the knock which is occurring. This then causes low efficiency and low mass airflow through the turbo/engine, causing an artificially lower afr. It's a fact that when you increase timing, the afr will raise a fair amount. I have seen and done it on "the" dyno.

Reader's digest: Put some bigger injectors in and get it tuned up right to see the real fruits of your labor. It may feel fast now, but it will be a totally different beast with proper timing. :)

Ben

Ben,
Thanks and this is what the tuner said when he got the file. So two of your agree on this.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7965/ritosafrix6.gif

is this the dyno used to come up with 513rwhp? :stickoutt

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=41

is this the dyno used to come up with 513rwhp? :stickoutt

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=41
How did you know that was the one I used. Was it a lucky guess?
Man you must be pretty smart.

I thought the e60 would have had a more significant limp mode. You go way lean then the ecu tries to compensate in a big way. Can this ecu override the throttle input? Maybe its closing the tb opening. Where is your boost sensor? Manifold or charge pipe?

Take away the 110 octane and the meth injection. Those two will make 24 lb worth of fuel seem like a lot more.

24 lb injectors at 3 bar pressure -- and I don't know the pressure on an E60 -- are worth somewhere in the range of 50 hp each plus or minus around 10% and depending upon the AFR. Times 6 is about 300 crank hp, again plus or minus. Also, if you are seeing 14 psi at low to mid range with good AFR that is different from seeing 14 psi at max rpm with good AFR, since the engine will use more fuel with more rpm. Injector duty cycle is usually not RPM dependent -- on many ECU you can get high duty cycle at low rpm but if you are doing that and then not pulling boost to reduce power you will lean out at high rpm.

Did STS sell this as a "low boost" kit that came with no tuning because the factory ECU and fuel injection hardware always has enough overhead to support low boost? And now, since a little was fun, you have to try alot? And you still don't have any tuning . . . . other than octane booster and meth injection?

Did STS sell this as a "low boost" kit that came with no tuning because the factory ECU and fuel injection hardware always has enough overhead to support low boost? And now, since a little was fun, you have to try alot? And you still don't have any tuning . . . . other than octane booster and meth injection?

That's not the case at all.

Before this kit was ever installed on his car he was having it tuned to suit his N/A and nitrous mods. He got boxed into a corner because of his injector choice, where the "remote tuning" method relies on AFR feedback from driving the car to do each DME reflash. The problem is that with the 65s, the car won't run at all, thus he can't provide any feedback for the tuner to work with.

I will admit that he's being very adventurous running the 24s the way he has, and the DME appears to have done it's job and saved the engine. However most of the advice given above has been discussed with him a looong time ago. Rito just likes to do his own thing...it's part of being a pioneer but it can cost...

is this the dyno used to come up with 513rwhp? :stickoutt

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=41

That's awesome!:lol

Thanks for the laughs.

He might do his own thing, but there is no way to do the right thing with 24# at 14psi. BMW factory tuners FTnotL.

What is your HP goal, and how much boost do you plan to run to achieve that goal?

I will repeat, and as others have said, if your Tuner is condoning you trying to run 15psi on the stock injectors, even just to try to get things roughed in, find a new tuner...

That's not the case at all.

Before this kit was ever installed on his car he was having it tuned to suit his N/A and nitrous mods. He got boxed into a corner because of his injector choice, where the "remote tuning" method relies on AFR feedback from driving the car to do each DME reflash. The problem is that with the 65s, the car won't run at all, thus he can't provide any feedback for the tuner to work with.

I will admit that he's being very adventurous running the 24s the way he has, and the DME appears to have done it's job and saved the engine. However most of the advice given above has been discussed with him a looong time ago. Rito just likes to do his own thing...it's part of being a pioneer but it can cost...

A guy with an E60 and an aftermarket turbo kit is "boxed into a corner" because of his injector choice? I doubt that a $300 set of injectors are dictating all the decisions here and if they are, someone needs to hire a consultant or a psychiatrist. I do appreciate the pioneering aspect, though.

If for whatever reason this remote tuner is the only tuner who will be chosen to work on the car and he can tune only within the adaption range of the ECU, why are you trying 125% larger injectors? Why not try a successive series of slightly larger injectors?

Many of us would like to see the results of a well set up and well tuned STS turbo system on a BMW.

I thought the e60 would have had a more significant limp mode. You go way lean then the ecu tries to compensate in a big way. Can this ecu override the throttle input? Maybe its closing the tb opening. Where is your boost sensor? Manifold or charge pipe?

Desnt the E60 have throttle by wire? The ecu could be closing the throttle causing reduced air flow that is supportable by the 24# inj. The boost is then just building up pre TB and not really flowing in. The 10 Afr is ecu defense mechanism....

We kinda need to know where he's getting his boost signal from. Pre TB or post TB?

We kinda need to know where he's getting his boost signal from. Pre TB or post TB?

Desnt the E60 have throttle by wire? The ecu could be closing the throttle causing reduced air flow that is supportable by the 24# inj. The boost is then just building up pre TB and not really flowing in. The 10 Afr is ecu defense mechanism....

Those were my points. Maybe I'm too subtle.
I was not sure whether the e60 had throttle by wire. If so, the ecu is probably shutting down the airflow causing the boost spike. You should have a wategate set below 5 psi until you get tuning. Does the car feel like it hits a brick wall just as boost is starting to build?

Luckily in this case the car is smarter than the owner and the tuner.

The following chart displays the maximum obtainable CRANKSHAFT horsepower vs. injector flow rate at 100% duty cycle, assuming a BSFC of .55 lbs./hp/hr. For Wankel and 2 stroke engines, multiply max hp in table by 0.9 to compensate for the higher BSFC of these engines. Injectors should be sized for 75-85% maximum duty cycle on engines used in constant high power applications such as race cars, aircraft and boats.

http://www.slowdowntogofast.com/host/upload/graph.jpg

that chart can't be right, there are cammed s52's making more hp at the wheels than that on 24# injectors, shit i put down 240whp on a mustang dyno with 24# injectors and no cams which at a 17% drivetrain loss is 280.8bhp

Everyone could be right so no arguement from me.

The ECU might be smarter than me and my tuner but it has nothing to do with anything.
I posted this to see what kind of response I would get to take out the guess work for me.
I must have some intellect because you guys came running.

It's funning if i would have said please help me with this tunning issue most of you would have said contact Nick G or JC or AA all who would not want anything to do with my car.
Then you would be insulting me telling me to read the threads or as you are doing now attacking the owner. If any of you can tune a E60 DME you have my blessing to try at it because I have not found anyone one that has been successful in doing so without going standalone. I give my Tuner High Props for even trying. What most of you are not hearing is the is for a project that I am doing and it not final product. I knew the tuning was going to be a challenge when I started and I think most of you did to. This is why most don't post any results until the final product is done. It's all part of the tuning process and I am not even close.

Just think about this message for a minute before you start being crucial Please.
Rito

I think that is a very fair and frank response and I appreciate it and wish you luck with the project. Again, many of us would like to see a well done STS turbo on a BMW. I have noticed that tuners seem to be going to interceptors, as opposed to stand alones on the newer cars. An interceptor would be a lot easier and more likely inspectable than a standalone.

The same tuners who put down piggybacks on all other cars. When they crack the code on the newer models, piggybacks will be all wrong again.

The same tuners who put down piggybacks on all other cars. When they crack the code on the newer models, piggybacks will be all wrong again.

:lol

How right you are.

that chart can't be right, there are cammed s52's making more hp at the wheels than that on 24# injectors, shit i put down 240whp on a mustang dyno with 24# injectors and no cams which at a 17% drivetrain loss is 280.8bhp


That chart also does not account for fuel pressure (S52's run more pressure than what 24# injectors are rated for, causing them to flow more than 24# of fuel each) and also are taking into account a BSFC of .55, it is possible that a cammed NA engine in its efficient RPM range may have a lower BSFC. You also have to take into the account that most NA engines will be running in the mid/low 13:1 AF range when making peak HP and a turbo engine will be running around 12.0+/-.

I wouldn't say the chart is wrong, at that rated flow, with that BSFC that's how much power you have fuel for. The chart is just rather narrow in scope and does not take into account for all the possible variables.

I think that is a very fair and frank response and I appreciate it and wish you luck with the project. Again, many of us would like to see a well done STS turbo on a BMW. I have noticed that tuners seem to be going to interceptors, as opposed to stand alones on the newer cars. An interceptor would be a lot easier and more likely inspectable than a standalone.

Yes sire, I have a big task and I will make every effort to get the STS a good representation. I am a believer of the system.

Please explain the interceptors to me because I am lost.
I definately don't want a standalone but if push comes to shove i will.
I think the tuner is doing a great job I have and I don't want to be bad mouthing him because I lack the understanding of why he does things the way he does.
I am not really making it easy for them either. I need to get data to him

Interceptor = piggyback. Stock ECU stays and does its thing except that bigger injectors are compensated for by reducing duty cycle, and timing and fuel signals (usually HFM output) are altered by you +/- when there is boost. There are quite a few available and I don't know what might work on the E60. Apexi, GReddy, HKS, Haltech, SMT, Morristech or TSI, etc.

Everyone could be right so no arguement from me.

The ECU might be smarter than me and my tuner but it has nothing to do with anything.
I posted this to see what kind of response I would get to take out the guess work for me.
I must have some intellect because you guys came running.

It's funning if i would have said please help me with this tunning issue most of you would have said contact Nick G or JC or AA all who would not want anything to do with my car.
Then you would be insulting me telling me to read the threads or as you are doing now attacking the owner. If any of you can tune a E60 DME you have my blessing to try at it because I have not found anyone one that has been successful in doing so without going standalone. I give my Tuner High Props for even trying. What most of you are not hearing is the is for a project that I am doing and it not final product. I knew the tuning was going to be a challenge when I started and I think most of you did to. This is why most don't post any results until the final product is done. It's all part of the tuning process and I am not even close.

Just think about this message for a minute before you start being crucial Please.
Rito
Rito, part of the reason why we can't help you is because we are not there to diagnose the build with you, same goes for your tuner. Many members on the board would have never tackled this build to begin with! Now this may mean you have a large set or are incredibly stupid! I like to think that your a man who enjoys taking on a challenge, especially because you stated so many times your novice level knowledge in this area! Taking on a build for me, and I think I can say this for the rest of the members, means SOFTWARE/TUNING first, then everything else. Before starting, I made sure that A/A, Nick G. etc. had tuning before I even started to consider F/I. You on the other hand did it backwards, no one has software for the E60! Hell, I don't even think anyone has even cracked into the E60 DME. Point is, you can't get mad at some of these responses your receiving, part of me congratulates your success thus far and the other part just looks at you :confused! I hope you figure everything out, good luck!

Great work on Not going to they dyno yet?:shifty

With as much money invested so far. Why dont you fly your tunner to you, and put him up in a hotel and feed him.. And Let him actually tune it..
seems logical to me?

Am I wrong?

Also Can we *everyone* quit calling this an STS turbo kit.. The only thing STS did is put the turbos in the back of F-bodies and Vettes.. This is a STS style system.. Lets call it Remote Mount turbo system? :D

Also Can we *everyone* quit calling this an STS turbo kit.. The only thing STS did is put the turbos in the back of F-bodies and Vettes.. This is a STS style system.. Lets call it Remote Mount turbo system? :D
Agreed, STS doesn't even make a system for a BMW IIRC, let alone an E60 5 series! I hope for his sake he gets this situated, what does a long block go for in this vehicle these days?

Rito, have you checked with AA about a tune? I know they have tuned a few of the e60 M5's.... some have nitrous, some have kellenners cams, some just NA but AA seems to have some knowledge on tuning this DME.

Stick in there, your car will be sick once it is all straightened out!!!

Great work on Not going to they dyno yet?:shifty

With as much money invested so far. Why dont you fly your tunner to you, and put him up in a hotel and feed him.. And Let him actually tune it..
seems logical to me?

Am I wrong?

Also Can we *everyone* quit calling this an STS turbo kit.. The only thing STS did is put the turbos in the back of F-bodies and Vettes.. This is a STS style system.. Lets call it Remote Mount turbo system? :D

I believe it is an STS universal fit kit, branded, kitted, and sold by STS...

Rito, part of the reason why we can't help you is because we are not there to diagnose the build with you, same goes for your tuner. Many members on the board would have never tackled this build to begin with! Now this may mean you have a large set or are incredibly stupid! I like to think that your a man who enjoys taking on a challenge, especially because you stated so many times your novice level knowledge in this area! Taking on a build for me, and I think I can say this for the rest of the members, means SOFTWARE/TUNING first, then everything else. Before starting, I made sure that A/A, Nick G. etc. had tuning before I even started to consider F/I. You on the other hand did it backwards, no one has software for the E60! Hell, I don't even think anyone has even cracked into the E60 DME. Point is, you can't get mad at some of these responses your receiving, part of me congratulates your success thus far and the other part just looks at you :confused! I hope you figure everything out, good luck!

First let me say I am not mad at any of you. I am not surprise of some of the comments and particular yours. You are trying to be nice about things but somehow manage to be insulting in some nice way. I just over look the comments because I realize that chating online can be difficult to say things straight but mean well.
Just for your imformation Tuning is sorted out. I am not going to say this again for those of you that don't read every line "THIS IS A PROJECT FROM START TO FINISH" This kit is not a bolt on kit and since it has never been done before, does not make me stupid either. I did not get to where I am in life because I make decisions based on what everyone else does. I don't see any point in anyone getting upset because I choose this project over the simple ones that most are doing. I just don't do what everyone else does and that's not an insult. For example, when Nick G started tuning he had no idea of his success but was determine to get it right. I would say this for all the tuners. Someone had to do it first and it was not a walk in the park. By me sharing the negative and the positive I thought it was a good thing just incase someone trying something for the first time they would remeber my experience and it just might help them with theirs. Another thing I have had several tunes on my current ECU for other things and it's not my first tune so to say I started this project without tuning in mind is an incorrect statement. Now when I have successed with my Project please give me my props and remember what I tried to say to you that you just did not get. Maybe you will, maybe you want but remember you are not talking to a newbie as you are trying so hard to state.

Rito

Rito, have you checked with AA about a tune? I know they have tuned a few of the e60 M5's.... some have nitrous, some have kellenners cams, some just NA but AA seems to have some knowledge on tuning this DME.

Stick in there, your car will be sick once it is all straightened out!!!

Hey,
Thanks I have spoken with Karl several times and they are following the project I am sure of it.

Just a big NOTE; My tuner knows what he is doing and I have cracked the stock ecu over several months if not a year ago. The problem with the tune is my Tuner has not had the proper data logging from me which I am starting to get to him. Once my tune is done it will be just like all the other Maps. We will have a base map and then a fine tune map which i will end up with shortly. As I stated before my tuner knows his stuff and I would say he is the best in the business but he is just not local. If anyone is making him look bad its ME. I did not mean for this to turn into who the heck is tuning his car. I was mainly trying to see what everyones experience was with 24lb injectors and 15psi which I knew it was not possible or maybe I don't.

Another thing is, I will not give up on this project and no mater what the cost is I will make this thing work using what I started with. It's just going to take more time. This is the very same reason why it takes AA, ESS, ICS, VF and many others so many months to release a kit because with all the test and tuning with lots of R&D. I will get it done.

I believe it is an STS universal fit kit, branded, kitted, and sold by STS...

You are correct this is a univeral kit from STS Rear Mounted Turbo which only included the main components. I had to build all the pipe work (needs some changes), and supply my own tuning. I guess the guy is saying since it only came with key components that you can take any turbo with the same components just making everything longer and it will work the same. Many have tried and successed with this.

First let me say I am not mad at any of you. I am not surprise of some of the comments and particular yours. You are trying to be nice about things but somehow manage to be insulting in some nice way. I just over look the comments because I realize that chating online can be difficult to say things straight but mean well.
Just for your imformation Tuning is sorted out. I am not going to say this again for those of you that don't read every line "THIS IS A PROJECT FROM START TO FINISH" This kit is not a bolt on kit and since it has never been done before, does not make me stupid either. I did not get to where I am in life because I make decisions based on what everyone else does. I don't see any point in anyone getting upset because I choose this project over the simple ones that most are doing. I just don't do what everyone else does and that's not an insult. For example, when Nick G started tuning he had no idea of his success but was determine to get it right. I would say this for all the tuners. Someone had to do it first and it was not a walk in the park. By me sharing the negative and the positive I thought it was a good thing just incase someone trying something for the first time they would remeber my experience and it just might help them with theirs. Another thing I have had several tunes on my current ECU for other things and it's not my first tune so to say I started this project without tuning in mind is an incorrect statement. Now when I have successed with my Project please give me my props and remember what I tried to say to you that you just did not get. Maybe you will, maybe you want but remember you are not talking to a newbie as you are trying so hard to state.

Rito
Rito, never once in my statement did I refer to you as a "newbie"! That title was presented by you and only you in your latest response. Your novice title was also presented to the forum by you, for those who haven't read your build thread, they may view this in person! You speak of a tuner that no one knows or heard/hears about, so calling him "The best in the business" will automatically generate questions such as, "Who is he and where is he from?" I do not doubt your ability to make this project work, for a person who states: "Just for your information Tuning is sorted out. I am not going to say this again for those of you that don't read every line...", it is you my friend that doesn't read every line! I stated that I thought of you as an individual who goes out and takes a challenge, which you have completed. I can give you your "Props" right now for the build you have taken on, I can appreciate it. However you get this build to operate correctly is your business, whether you post it or not, once again your business. I wish you and your tuner the best!

Ok,
You win, I think you and I both now understand it's a challenge and that it's a lot of work.
Now I will be more than happy to point out my tuner and a few of you have contacted me directly and i have given this informaiton out without any hesitation. Once he has done his thing I will dispose of this openly in the forum with the results of the final project. Agreed!
I just did not want to expose this in the forum until we have final product done, because i know many of the newer BMW owners are looking for tuners for N/A things or bolt on projects.

So why do we have a thread about 15psi on 24# injectors? "Tuning is sorted out" and OP personally "cracked the stock ecu over several months if not a year ago". I say close thread and start a new one explaining these revelations in great detail. Way to go!

So why do we have a thread about 15psi on 24# injectors? "Tuning is sorted out" and OP personally "cracked the stock ecu over several months if not a year ago". I say close thread and start a new one explaining these revelations in great detail. Way to go!

Well, I think it was an asumption that tuning was being taken care of and this is my fault because the way I explain things. I was mostly pointing out that I don't see how the injectors would make me overly rich no matter how much boost I turn on. I was just using the spring in the waste gate and when i was running rich i add more boost. Since i got the same results I figured turn up the boost. Later it was explain that I need more fuel at part throttle because the ecu was trying to riching when it would see a lean spike and also pull timing. This stuff is all tuning things that I did not understand that is a valueable part of the process, however I knew futher adjustments would have to be made since the first tune was a blind tune.

Where is your boost sensor mounted? Manifold or charge pipe? This is important to understanding how the car is reacting.

Manifold

So 15psi in the manifold. Please describe how the car feels. Let's say WOT starting at 1500rpm and running to redline. Does it accelerate smoothly and in correlation with boost? Does it have a major fall off? Hesitations? Act like it's missing spark?

Nervermind: you posted it here http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11333948&postcount=242

So 15psi in the manifold. Please describe how the car feels. Let's say WOT starting at 1500rpm and running to redline. Does it accelerate smoothly and in correlation with boost? Does it have a major fall off? Hesitations? Act like it's missing spark?

As i start to make boost it comes on strong and instant but since i have remove the highway gears i don't start seeing boost until 2nd(late in rpms) but instantly in 3rd gear not when i shift to 4th gear it pulls even harder right up until 4500rpms and thats when it start hesitating or having a major fall off.

Ok,
Anyone with the DISA and went turbo. What did you do with the disa valve. did you remove it and block it off or did you just unplug it. Because everything that seems to go wrong is right at the point the disa switches to wot.

You are correct this is a univeral kit from STS Rear Mounted Turbo which only included the main components. I had to build all the pipe work (needs some changes), and supply my own tuning. I guess the guy is saying since it only came with key components that you can take any turbo with the same components just making everything longer and it will work the same. Many have tried and successed with this.

So STS sold you a turbo, intercooler, BOV, Wastegate. and said Hey here is what you need to turbo your car, with OUR kit, sorry but your going to have to make all of your own piping, and figure out the tuning,

What a great kit..

I still say this is STS style. You may have bought this stuff from them, but in No way, Shape, or Form is this a STS Kit...

Also I have run 15 Psi on 24# injectors, I crushed the FPR in a vise and my Fuel pressue was like 90psi, They worked fine :eek: *just did it on a honda to really see how far they could go lol* :alright

So STS sold you a turbo, intercooler, BOV, Wastegate. and said Hey here is what you need to turbo your car, with OUR kit, sorry but your going to have to make all of your own piping, and figure out the tuning,

What a great kit..

I still say this is STS style. You may have bought this stuff from them, but in No way, Shape, or Form is this a STS Kit...

Also I have run 15 Psi on 24# injectors, I crushed the FPR in a vise and my Fuel pressue was like 90psi, They worked fine :eek: *just did it on a honda to really see how far they could go lol* :alright

Well I am doing this kit on their behalf. They will be offering a kit for BMWs once I am done. There is one guy (on the north east coast) who is going to start the build but for 3 series cars. I think his first project is on a M3. I sent him all the photos of the pipe work and what i have so far. It want be my crappy custom work and it will be a bolt on. We have also got the tuning lined up too. It's just too bad I had to be the first one to tried and tested.
I wasn't suppose to reveal this yet until they knew for sure so don't hold my word on this.
I am sure is contingent on my results.

Well I am doing this kit on their behalf. They will be offering a kit for BMWs once I am done. There is one guy (on the north east coast) who is going to start the build but for 3 series cars. I think his first project is on a M3. I sent him all the photos of the pipe work and what i have so far. It want be my crappy custom work and it will be a bolt on. We have also got the tuning lined up too. It's just too bad I had to be the first one to tried and tested.
I wasn't suppose to reveal this yet until they knew for sure so don't hold my word on this.
I am sure is contingent on my results.

Interesting :cool

Another thing is, I will not give up on this project and no mater what the cost is I will make this thing work using what I started with. It's just going to take more time. This is the very same reason why it takes AA, ESS, ICS, VF and many others so many months to release a kit because with all the test and tuning with lots of R&D. I will get it done.

I like your attitude! Its a pity not as many people are willing to go through the headaches of designing a system for a new platform.

Ok,
Anyone with the DISA and went turbo. What did you do with the disa valve. did you remove it and block it off or did you just unplug it. Because everything that seems to go wrong is right at the point the disa switches to wot.

Rito,

All the previous turbo M54s have been pre MS45 DMEs. You have a new DME that does things a bit different than my car for example with MS43. I remember a while back there was some experimentation done by Technik Engineering regarding a power dip @ the DISA switching point. I think they traced it back to timing in the software...

I believe you are the only one in posession of a DISA block off plate so far.

Rito,

All the previous turbo M54s have been pre MS45 DMEs. You have a new DME that does things a bit different than my car for example with MS43. I remember a while back there was some experimentation done by Technik Engineering regarding a power dip @ the DISA switching point. I think they traced it back to timing in the software...

I believe you are the only one in posession of a DISA block off plate so far.

Hey Adam,
I saw your last post and i meant to thank you in a email. You have always been very helpful and understanding my thinking better than most. I really appreciate everything you contribute to my education of BMW motors.


Yes sir, that is my big challenge. I ended up putting the disa back in thinking it would help but you know every well how the disa work because we have discussed this many times. Now that i have the car working more proeffiently I am thinking of removing the disa and add the plate. What I believe is happening is when the disa is closed it is only pressurizing one cylinder at a time 1 & 4 and once it thru that cycle its open full and there has to be an immediate pressure drop compared to the original pressure and the ecu is responding to that. I am headed out the door to see if i came get some datat logging done now. I did to a quick test run last night and there was a huge difference but i can to tell what else is going on by just looking at the wide band. Also I took out the 2 heat range colder plugs and put the 1 heat range plugs back in so hopefully it helps lean it out and give a good response throughout the rpm band.

Talk to you later and I will come back with some updates.

Rito

I like your attitude! Its a pity not as many people are willing to go through the headaches of designing a system for a new platform.

Thanks I live for this.

Just unplug the DISA valve and go for a drive. You'll get a code but no CEL. I agree that the DISA is probably a piece of this puzzle. Alternatively, you could just adjust the DISA control in the ms45 that you've cracked, right?

Just unplug the DISA valve and go for a drive. You'll get a code but no CEL. I agree that the DISA is probably a piece of this puzzle. Alternatively, you could just adjust the DISA control in the ms45 that you've cracked, right?

Thanks I have had the disa unpluged before and it never alerts a code unlike the older models. Also i have unplugged the thing last night and have driven around town today to see how things work. It's almost running optimun. Just richen it up low end with some more timeing and i can make power down low.(this is not exactly what my tuner will be doing but we will see.

The max AFR i am getting now is 10.8-11.2 at WOT without methanol so leaning it out will help on the top end. I want to be 12.0-12.5 so when i add methanol I am between 11.5-12.0.
Getting it done.

Is there something about the fuel pressure regulator on the e60 that is different than on the e36/46 models? I would install a fuel pressure gauge and see what's going on.

Well I according to the TIS they all are eletric fuel pumps but the E46, E60/61 and the E87 are all regulated fuel pumps.
Here is the break down.
E46-Side Channel pump(2-Stage fuel Pump)
E60/61- Roller Cell pump
E87- G-Rotor pump
The E46, E60/61 regulated based on the demand of the driver. If the driver wants more fuel by applying the pedal/throttle the EKP (hold different fuel Maps) will send a voltage specifying what map the car needs. It also says its on demand type fuel system which operates off of 3.5 bar which is 51.85psi. The E36 says it operates at 3.5 bar but only has a current consumption of 5.5 and the other pumps has a 8.5 current consmption if that means anything.
Thats from the TIS but that's all the information i have.

Rito

Hey Adam,
I saw your last post and i meant to thank you in a email. You have always been very helpful and understanding my thinking better than most. I really appreciate everything you contribute to my education of BMW motors.

No problem Rito!

Keep at it, you are getting close.

No problem Rito!

Keep at it, you are getting close.

Adam,
YOu are going to laugh at this. I disconnected the Disa and the thing pulls much stronger for longer periods in the rpms. I am still waiting on a better tune to be finished so I expect to see even better results.
The other problem I have is there is not many places to open up the car because of the po po. I am scared to take it up the interstate just incase something goes wrong but perhaps this weekend.
Did you see my videos yet. My daughter did the recording so they are not as nice.

I can post here
http://media.putfile.com/2004-BMW-530i-E60-with-STS-Rear-Mounted-Turbo

I can remove the video once you check it out.
Sorry for putting it in your thread.
Rito

nearly one month later.... AND?

nearly one month later.... AND?

Voila! EGT looks a little high....

nearly one month later.... AND?

Well, Still sorting out things. What I believe I have figured out might just solve my issue. From my understanding the stock MAF can only read so much pressure coming into the charge pipes so i need either to make the Porche MAF sensor work or figure out a way to emulate the voltage from the stock MAF so the DME thinks the readings the MAF sensor is seeing is far less than what is actually happening. I also ordered a Split Sec device that would allow me to regulate the reading better, just too lazy to wire it up.

Just to explain things further, Based on the data logging i was doing, as boost starts to come on the car would run extemely lean briefly and just run extremely rich. My thinking is the car would go into a prevented mode protecting the motor and pull timing causing the car to run rich. Sent the ECU off one more time for adjustments and car still runs extremely rich but later in the rpms. Since this is my third adjustment I kind of got tired of sending the ecu back and forth so I am going to control my own AFR using a after market piggyback device and run the current timing that is maped on the ECU.

I still drive the car daily since the DME is much smarter than I am it want let me blow the motor as it currently setup. Also i found a few major leaks in the charge pipes that helped lean it out a bit but up top it's still running too rich. The new device (fuel controller) should sort this out.

Rito

Rito,

Your tuner should know the limits of your MAF, if you change your MAF the tuning will need to be changed accordingly in your ECU. AA use MAF clamps to rescale the voltage of your normally maxed out MAF. There are a lot of people that can explain this better then I. Also if you use a MAF scaler the tuning will need to be adjusted accordingly.

-Santiago

Good to see your still trucking along here.

Rito,

Your tuner should know the limits of your MAF, if you change your MAF the tuning will need to be changed accordingly in your ECU. AA use MAF clamps to rescale the voltage of your normally maxed out MAF. There are a lot of people that can explain this better then I. Also if you use a MAF scaler the tuning will need to be adjusted accordingly.

-Santiago

Good to see your still trucking along here.

Hey Santiago,
How is it going? Did you setup the nitrous system yet. :)
BTW Yes i have spoken with AA, HPF and a few others. They did not tell me this directly but after a few conversations this would always come up which lead me to believe this is where my problem lies. I have the PSC1 001 from Split Second. Just have to install the thing and start from there. My first step is just to get a good AFR and from there i can make the necessary adjustments much more easily. I figured it was the stock MAF sensor causing the headache with the tune but no one i spoke with came out and just told me this was a must.
I should have figured this out a long time ago since most of the setups are using the porche HFM and a reflash/chip for fine tuning.

I will let you know how it goes.
Rito

Why don't you just bite the bullet and convert to a full standalone. You will have a fully running car in no time if you go to a tuner. If you ever make a change it will be easy to have someone retune it.

Hey Santiago,
How is it going? Did you setup the nitrous system yet. :)
BTW Yes i have spoken with AA, HPF and a few others. They did not tell me this directly but after a few conversations this would always come up which lead me to believe this is where my problem lies. I have the PSC1 001 from Split Second. Just have to install the thing and start from there. My first step is just to get a good AFR and from there i can make the necessary adjustments much more easily. I figured it was the stock MAF sensor causing the headache with the tune but no one i spoke with came out and just told me this was a must.
I should have figured this out a long time ago since most of the setups are using the porche HFM and a reflash/chip for fine tuning.

I will let you know how it goes.
Rito

Why don't you just bite the bullet and convert to a full standalone. You will have a fully running car in no time if you go to a tuner. If you ever make a change it will be easy to have someone retune it.

This would have been a no brainer if my car was say 1999 or older.
What i am seeing happening is the Stock DME has been the way to go on the newer model cars. Don't get me wrong, going standalone is still in the air for me, but i want to use it as a last resort.
The other issue is I don't want to be the one to install the standalone, If there was a plug an play harness available or someone would create one for me I would not have a problem doing this.
Let me know some options avialable but seems ever company i contact doen't have anything that would work for my package.

Rito

Honestly man-- you need a new tuner. Thats all it comes down to.

Honestly man-- you need a new tuner. Thats all it comes down to.
Yes Sir,
At this point I can not disagree.

Any leads :)

What is the difference how old the car is. Toss the old DME out the window and wire up the new one.
Do you have dual vanos? I'd with something like Autronic or AEM. Both are speed-density systems which don't require the expensive MAFs.
You should have no problem finding a certified tuner in your area that can wire it up. DME tune is the best way to go but only if you can a descent tune. I really don't understand remote tuning strategy. To get the most out of the system you need to do a dyno tune.

This would have been a no brainer if my car was say 1999 or older.
What i am seeing happening is the Stock DME has been the way to go on the newer model cars. Don't get me wrong, going standalone is still in the air for me, but i want to use it as a last resort.
The other issue is I don't want to be the one to install the standalone, If there was a plug an play harness available or someone would create one for me I would not have a problem doing this.
Let me know some options avialable but seems ever company i contact doen't have anything that would work for my package.

Rito

What is the difference how old the car is. Toss the old DME out the window and wire up the new one.
Do you have dual vanos? I'd with something like Autronic or AEM. Both are speed-density systems which don't require the expensive MAFs.
You should have no problem finding a certified tuner in your area that can wire it up. DME tune is the best way to go but only if you can a descent tune. I really don't understand remote tuning strategy. To get the most out of the system you need to do a dyno tune.

Where i live there is only one tuner shop that would do tuning but they have no idea about BMWs. I beg them all the time but they mostly deal with EVO and things like that. There is a shop about three hours away that i considered.

I plan on taking care of this within the next weeks one way or the other.
Rito

Idk if NickG has been mentioned?

He's doing e46 stuff which I imagine is close to e60 stuff.

Idk if NickG has been mentioned?

He's doing e46 stuff which I imagine is close to e60 stuff.

Nick and i have spoken on the phone and via pm. He refused to help me and stated he has his hands full with the 3 series car. I would have even flew him out to me for a tune. Oh well.

double vanos is too complicated for an AEM to handle properly. Only aftermarket ECU's I've seen handle DVanos properly are Motec and bosch motorsports.

double vanos is too complicated for an AEM to handle properly. Only aftermarket ECU's I've seen handle DVanos properly are Motec and bosch motorsports.

Yes this is the other problem with going standalone. Doesn't VAC sell motec product and who sells Bosch Motorsports stuff.

I believe the latest SM4 can do dual vanos as well.

I personally wouldn't do standalone on a car like that. I would find an appropriate chip tuner. Unfortunately I have no recommendations :(

Does AA do in house custom tunes?

I believe the latest SM4 can do dual vanos as well.

I personally wouldn't do standalone on a car like that. I would find an appropriate chip tuner. Unfortunately I have no recommendations :(

Does AA do in house custom tunes?

Yes they do but Karl and I spoke and he said they are trying to get back to business of doing kits and in the past doing the custom setup was time consuming and costly. From a business perspective it doesn't make since for them to continue down that road. I am sure at this point if I presented them with the right cash they would still jump all over it.
I just did not want to ship the car to them for months or weeks. Who knows what i have to end up doing before it's over.

Rito

You do know they make a 535i twin turbo form the factory now? Best of luck - a big challenge!

You do know they make a 535i twin turbo form the factory now? Best of luck - a big challenge!

What's the point?:confused They make 300bhp and i have been there and done that with the car already. This build is far more than the 535i will produce currently. I don't think the 335/535i cars have anything that can produce 450+rwhp to date but i am sure it's in the making but still not my final goals. The Direct Fuel Injector will limit there power levels for a while unless someone designs a higher flowing injector than the one they have installed.

High flow direct injection injectors are available. ECU's to control them as well.

I'm not positive, but I *think* the SM4 is still just "on/off" for cam control. It can do that on 2 cams, but you wouldn't want to do that with the adjustment range on the DVanos system.

High flow direct injection injectors are available. ECU's to control them as well.

I'm not positive, but I *think* the SM4 is still just "on/off" for cam control. It can do that on 2 cams, but you wouldn't want to do that with the adjustment range on the DVanos system.

Don't you guys offer tuning as well?
Who has tried the new high flow direct injectors already. So far and i could be wrong about this but the max power i seen on the new twin turbo setup is 385rwhp. Don't get me wrong, at this point even that would satify me because it lets me know the car is on it's way. I have sorted out just about everything for my setup that should allow me to max out the stock motor with the one big exception of the tuning. (upgraded clutch, head gasket, race diff, methanol/injection and a few other things that I haven't covered) I just can not wait for the nightmare to be over and i am kicking some butt on the streets. Also I am sort of building a M54 for a swap very soon to take the car to another level and this is the main reason why i was waiting on going standalone. I just have to send the money for the guy building the motor before he sells it to someone else. So i need to sort out this tuning issue fast.

Rito

High flow direct injection injectors are available. ECU's to control them as well.

I'm not positive, but I *think* the SM4 is still just "on/off" for cam control. It can do that on 2 cams, but you wouldn't want to do that with the adjustment range on the DVanos system.

Tuning a continuously variable DVanos system will be a headache. But at this point I don't think the OP has much of a choice. I really doubt his remote tuner does anything to the stock Cam table.

I still think the easiest/cleanest solution will be the tuning of the stock ECU with a properly sized MAF and injectors. I wish I could do something with that ECU, but I can't. I'm sure someone can though, and its just a question of finding the right person with both an interface and an understanding of what needs to happen. I think one of the potential issues here is/was any middle man.

The other good solution would be a suitable bosch or motec box. This would be rewiring the engine, would lose emissions compliance, and a relatively expensive choice. it would offer complete control over... everything.

I can tune any ECU I have a viable interface to. this includes the motec, the bosch motorsports box, most of the OBD-I bosch ECU's, etc... but not the stock ECU in this 530.

Ritoab went with a European tuner known for producing ecu upgrade tunes but not custom tunes. As far as I could gather, no BFc member has used the company for any BMW FI work. The middle man was used to provide info and flash the software. I would demand back every dime I paid. I hope Ritoab chooses to name the company and roast them in this thread with a detail explanation of his experience (how many reflashes? what info they wanted? results after reflash? etc...)

I still think the easiest/cleanest solution will be the tuning of the stock ECU with a properly sized MAF and injectors. I wish I could do something with that ECU, but I can't. I'm sure someone can though, and its just a question of finding the right person with both an interface and an understanding of what needs to happen. I think one of the potential issues here is/was any middle man.

The other good solution would be a suitable bosch or motec box. This would be rewiring the engine, would lose emissions compliance, and a relatively expensive choice. it would offer complete control over... everything.

I can tune any ECU I have a viable interface to. this includes the motec, the bosch motorsports box, most of the OBD-I bosch ECU's, etc... but not the stock ECU in this 530.

My Stock ECU is the MS45.1 OBDII as the 330 uses so I don't see why they are making it suck a difficult task. it can't be any more difficult than a 330 or M3 car.
I don't know but i would go with one of those boxes if someone wired it up for me or made it a plug and play. The other thing would be cost.

Ritoab went with a European tuner known for producing ecu upgrade tunes but not custom tunes. As far as I could gather, no BFc member has used the company for any BMW FI work. The middle man was used to provide info and flash the software. I would demand back every dime I paid. I hope Ritoab chooses to name the company and roast them in this thread with a detail explanation of his experience (how many reflashes? what info they wanted? results after reflash? etc...)
Well that about sums it up? No need to beat a dead horse in the ground any father.
Either way i will resolve this issue. should have had Nick G on my chirstmas list and he might would have helped.

Ritoab went with a European tuner known for producing ecu upgrade tunes but not custom tunes. As far as I could gather, no BFc member has used the company for any BMW FI work. The middle man was used to provide info and flash the software. I would demand back every dime I paid. I hope Ritoab chooses to name the company and roast them in this thread with a detail explanation of his experience (how many reflashes? what info they wanted? results after reflash? etc...)

I would want to see more details before any flaming is done. There are lots of possible issues here. I doubt any real tuner would be suggesting to use the stock MAF and injectors on a turbocharged application at reosable boost levels. There may be something being lost in the communications.

I believe these guys work with the MSV70 --

http://www.carpowerimprovement.com/index-en.php
http://www.ziptuning.nl/en/customchip/Bmw-523i-E60-177pk.html
http://www.upsolute.com/

I don't know of their track record though, just found all of them doing a quick search. May want to contact them about help.

EDIT: Hmm yep it seems it is MS45.. I just glanced quick on EVC's website.

My Stock ECU is the MS45.1 OBDII as the 330 uses so I don't see why they are making it suck a difficult task. it can't be any more difficult than a 330 or M3 car.
I don't know but i would go with one of those boxes if someone wired it up for me or made it a plug and play. The other thing would be cost.

I could wire one up and tune it. PNP would not be an option I would consider. Cost is usually the biggest issue for most.

I believe these guys work with the MSV70 --

http://www.carpowerimprovement.com/index-en.php
http://www.ziptuning.nl/en/customchip/Bmw-523i-E60-177pk.html
http://www.upsolute.com/

I don't know of their track record though, just found all of them doing a quick search. May want to contact them about help.

EDIT: MS45.1 you say? Hmm let me look into this...
Upsolute is whom i am using currently. The guy basic takes my information of the things i have done and pulls the file and sends it to the guy out of Germany. He makes the adjustments then he sends the file back to the middle man to load it up. As the last post said. They have a good reputation but the difficult part is me getting proper data to them so i really can not blame them. If i had a good dyno run to show exact issues and where adjustments need to be made I am sure he could sort this out. He never told me to use the stock MAF but I know i had to use something and it had to be in the last location as the other setup. Having said this the setup was fabbed basically from stratch with no particular directions and very little help. I am sure if STS had the ability to tune the car they would have sorted this out by now and if i could get a good clean data log to the tuner he would have sorted this out. Personally I don't think there is a problem perse with the tune but the MAF throwing everything off because it can not read past 5volts. If i sort this out I might have a different results.

I could wire one up and tune it. PNP would not be an option I would consider. Cost is usually the biggest issue for most.
I understand so could you pm me a magic cost if i was to go forward with doing a hard wire and having you tune the thing.

Rito

I understand so could you pm me a magic cost if i was to go forward with doing a hard wire and having you tune the thing.

Rito

I am afraid you don't want to know this figure :)

just a few hundred bucks right:(

just a few hundred bucks right:(

Yeah around there...


in tax.

I am afraid you don't want to know this figure :)
You were right. the price is a jagger in the side. LOL

Yeah around there...


in tax.
hahahaha
You guys are so mean to outsiders LOL:)

Rito,

I've listed this before, but I thought others reading this thread could benifit from this as well.

Stand Alone ECUs that can control 6 cylinder double Vanos:

Autronic SM4
Motec M600
Motec M800
Motec M880
Pectel SQ6
Pectel SQ6M
Pectel T10S
DTAfast S60 Pro
DTAfast S80 Pro
DTAfast S100 Pro
All Bosch MS ECUs

Haltech has some impressive units, but I haven't been in contact with anyone using one on a dual vanos engine.

The Pectel SQ6 has been used as a piggyback to tune Porsche 997s, I don't see why the same couldn't be done with a 530.

There are 2 options for piggyback ECUs that I know will work with M54s:

-Powermod
-Moristech

Did your tuner talk to you about MAF's at all? Did he ask about boost levels? Which injectors? Intercooling? All of these should have been nailed down BEFORE you started tuning with your tuner. And I blame the tuner for not directing you. A problem with the MAF is a problem with the tune per se.

Rito,

I've listed this before, but I thought others reading this thread could benifit from this as well.

Stand Alone ECUs that can control 6 cylinder double Vanos:

Autronic SM4
Motec M600
Motec M800
Motec M880
Pectel SQ6
Pectel SQ6M
Pectel T10S
DTAfast S60 Pro
DTAfast S80 Pro
DTAfast S100 Pro
All Bosch MS ECUs

Haltech has some impressive units, but I haven't been in contact with anyone using one on a dual vanos engine.

The Pectel SQ6 has been used as a piggyback to tune Porsche 997s, I don't see why the same couldn't be done with a 530.

There are 2 options for piggyback ECUs that I know will work with M54s:

-Powermod
-Moristech
Hey Adam,
You have been missed! How is everything going with you? BTW, Yes sir we have covered this from the beginning, wish i would have considered them from the start. I don't mind going with piggybacks or standalone i just do not want to deal with the wiring harness myself and as for as reliable associates around here, it bites. Although there are plenty of BMW owners here no one tunes or really mods their car as i have. So no help. If i had a plug and play and all i had to do is tune the thing, that would work wonders for me.
Did your tuner talk to you about MAF's at all? Did he ask about boost levels? Which injectors? Intercooling? All of these should have been nailed down BEFORE you started tuning with your tuner. And I blame the tuner for not directing you. A problem with the MAF is a problem with the tune per se.
No my tuner did not discuss anything with me about the MAF because he does not even know much about what it is I am doing. I did my best to fill him in with all the details of my setup (which is not common for him to tune) All he does is past this information on to the German tuner who makes the adjustment. I must admit this is mostly my fault because i was not prepared for this and i have had little help for those that know how to setup a turbo for BMWs. Most don't want to be responsible for what happens.
Rito

I disagree Ritoab. It's a great project, but the tuner knew he could not tune it without the basic info you've been laying out here. He should not have taken the job without even knowing how your were metering air. Don't blame yourself when the expert is letting you down. In my field, it is called malpractice.

Thanks i appreciate that.

Did your tuner talk to you about MAF's at all? Did he ask about boost levels? Which injectors? Intercooling? All of these should have been nailed down BEFORE you started tuning with your tuner. And I blame the tuner for not directing you. A problem with the MAF is a problem with the tune per se.

M54B30 MAF flows 1046 Kg/hr, or 2301 Lbs/hr

Since we are talking about Mass Airflow, we can use the following to show the metering potential of the meter.

To make 1 hp with an AFR of 14.7:1, approximately 7.35 Lb/hr will be consumed. (Do not use this to calculate fuel requirements, it's just a rough illustration)

2301 / 7.35 = 313 Hp of metering potential at an AFR of 14.7:1

Keep in mind the above is just a rough guideline, the volumetric efficiency of an engine will alter the amount of air and fuel required to make 1 HP.

Sounds like you may need a new MAF Rito. The best way to check this is by logging the signal output by the MAF; it should track fairly close your HP dyno plot. If the signal plateaus before you reach peak power, you need a different MAF.

M54B30 MAF flows 1046 Kg/hr, or 2301 Lbs/hr

Since we are talking about Mass Airflow, we can use the following to show the metering potential of the meter.

To make 1 hp with an AFR of 14.7:1, approximately 7.35 Lb/hr will be consumed. (Do not use this to calculate fuel requirements, it's just a rough illustration)

2301 / 7.35 = 313 Hp of metering potential at an AFR of 14.7:1

Keep in mind the above is just a rough guideline, the volumetric efficiency of an engine will alter the amount of air and fuel required to make 1 HP.

Sounds like you may need a new MAF Rito. The best way to check this is by logging the signal output by the MAF; it should track fairly close your HP dyno plot. If the signal plateaus before you reach peak power, you need a different MAF.

How did i miss this post. I order a new sensor that's sitting at BMW and I am too lazy to pick the damn thing up. I will do this first thing in the morning.
Thanks again
Rito

A new MAF without a matching reprogramming of the MAF transfer funtion in the ECU is WORSE than nothing. Right now, you don't have a tuner who can do this.

Well, considering my tune might be fine because if the MAF is bad it will through off the tune. My ecu is not getting a in the car tune and it's possible the tuner is thinking the MAF is in good condition. I say this because according to Adams post above there is no way i should be maxing out the MAF on my car until something around 300+rwhp. it makes since to correct every stock part before my tuner can go any further and he might be doing a great job but i want know until i fix all the tweaks on the car. Just a thought. Who really knows i am just trying everything posible before i have to spend 10k on a tune like this. LOL

Rito

I misunderstood. I thought you were replacing the stock with a larger MAF. If your only replacing stock with stock, then the maf related portions of the software does not need to be altered.

Correct not changing the stock sensor. Now what you might be referring to is the pressure sensor that i ordered from the 335i. I was thinking of using it because i reads boost. The only problem with this sensor is that it only reads pressure and not pressure/Intake Air temps as the stock MAF does. In this case as you said i would have to reprogram the ECU to now only read off pressure which would probably be a nightmare. My only purpose for ordering the pressure sensor was for a standalone I might end up purchasing in the future once the Built motor is done because i plan to go full standalone.

The following chart displays the maximum obtainable CRANKSHAFT horsepower vs. injector flow rate at 100% duty cycle, assuming a BSFC of .55 lbs./hp/hr. For Wankel and 2 stroke engines, multiply max hp in table by 0.9 to compensate for the higher BSFC of these engines. Injectors should be sized for 75-85% maximum duty cycle on engines used in constant high power applications such as race cars, aircraft and boats.

http://www.slowdowntogofast.com/host/upload/graph.jpg

He's spraying meth (at least some of the time)


How are you and your tuner accounting for the lambda changes when you're spraying meth? Sounds like that might be influencing the AFRs you are getting

I would leave the methanol injection and other junk off until the car runs properly in its least complicated form.

He's spraying meth (at least some of the time)


How are you and your tuner accounting for the lambda changes when you're spraying meth? Sounds like that might be influencing the AFRs you are getting

I have not been spraying meth until i get everything sorted out. what i have done is filling up with 110 octane to help protect the motor until things are sorted out.
Also you do not tune your car perse for methanol/water. Here is how is works. Lets say i want to have a AFR with Meth to be no more than 11.0-11.5 I would tune the car to my desired AFR with out meth to say 12.0-12.5 and just turn on the methanol which would richen me up either .5-1 full point. Thats how methanol is tuned. If you are adding the methanol and trying to tune your AFR out to 11.5 or what ever it's been done wrong. Well that's the way i was taught years ago and it hasn't changed.

I would leave the methanol injection and other junk off until the car runs properly in its least complicated form.