I can't wait to drive the car tomorrow.

My baseline HP before the install this afternoon showed 273.5 HP on the dyno jet. Thats with MK-Motorsport muffler and S.S. X-Pipe. I think my car should have a little over 275 cause my spark plugs could be bad at 31k miles with my driving.

Evosport showed me a Dyno reading for an E39 M5 that had 310 HP with the old OEM plugs and it made over 330 HP after the tune up and new plugs.

Keep posted I'll post the results tomorrow
:alright

Good to hear that your car is getting modded up :buttrock
I have 2 questions:

1. What is the race pipe? Dont you already have the x-pipe?
2. Are you also installing catalyst? In the post you just mentioned the headers. Just wondering if there is a way around the CEL.

Yes I have the x-pipe which replaces the rear resonator.

Now I'm installing the Supersprint headers and race pipe which eliminates the cats.

This is the new race pipe which has the post cat placement for the O2 Sensors.

Its really cool they are positioned at an angle as far as possible from the primary flow to where they get less exhaust flow than the first O2 sensors, which means they get a smaller voltage reading resulting in no check engine light and no ECU problems.

Sweet! No check engine lights and no ecu problems? I will have to do this same mod.

Its really cool they are positioned at an angle as far as possible from the primary flow to where they get less exhaust flow than the first O2 sensors, which means they get a smaller voltage reading resulting in no check engine light and no ECU problems.

I'm confused here. Does the exhaust system come with any catalysts at all? If it doesnt, then it will set a check engine light.

The Supersprint headers come without cats.

There is a pre cat O2 sensor mounting point welded on the headers.

After that the US Spec M3 has its first resonator on the left and a straight pipe on the right of the front pipe section. Here the Euro M3 has its Cats. Supersprint sell either metallic racing cats (100cpi) or a race pipe which has no cats.

The Race pipe has the post cat O2 sensor point welded in at an angle of about 25 degrees from the pipe. This allows less flow from the headers to hit the O2 sensor resistor. So this records a lower voltage reading than the upstream O2 sensor which keeps the check engine light from coming on, simulating the flow as if it was effectively decreased if there was a restricting cat.


Here's a link of US Header/cat vs Euro comparison

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55313

Heres the Euro headers and Euro cats

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82408

Supersprint Headers

http://bmpdesign.com/exhaust/bmw/product/022787/501L.gif

Supersprint Cats

Supersprint Race Pipe
I can't find pictures of these, but you can check out more info on bmpdesign or evosport

http://www.evosport.com/product/exhaust/exhaust_bmw.html#supersprint_header


Supersprint X-pipe

http://bmpdesign.com/exhaust/bmw/product/022787/513L.gif

So there is no need to get the AA O2 Simulators?

I dont think the current O2 sims out there work on the DME S52 engine management system. Someone else on this forum can give you more info. on it since I got it from him.

No one who knows me could accuse me of always being legal (I am moral however), but I don't like to run without cats.
It is a Federal offense, of course, but to me, the challenge is in beating the BMW engineers at their own game.
If I get more hp, but don't pass smog, then what have I done that is imaginative?

here are two reasons why I have legal (but not stock, there is a loophole) Cats on my e46M3:

1) The big one, car makes the same or perhaps MORE hp with cats. (Dyno proven, aftermarket software)
2) Another big one: I know a person, firsthand who wrecked his truck. Truck had no cats. Insurance investigator looked at it at the wrecking yard, and upon discovering it had no cats, did not pay the claim based on the fact that the truck was not legal to drive on a public road. This poor guy had to make payments for 3 more years with nothing to show for it.
PS. I have no intent to argue about the dyno claim, I am not at liberty to say who or when, but it is a trusted source that is good enough for ME to base my decision on.
Jay

Let us know the noise level without cats.

Originally posted by Hellabad
1) The big one, car makes the same or perhaps MORE hp with cats. (Dyno proven, aftermarket software)

I've seen dyno runs on cars showing that it comes to a point where less backpressure causes a loss of mid and high end torque, with minor, and at times loss of high end HP.

Low restriction cats, yes, but removing them all together, with a low restriction muffler may cause a detrimental effect on HP.

Guess when you run her on the dyno we'll know for sure. :dunno

mpilot....can you do me a favor...if you can...

could you please take some pics of how they wire the 02 sensors....are they splicing the wires...or are they installing a new harness....thx.

I'm planning to add some free flowing metallic cats in a couple of month. MK-Motorsport is releasing their race cats soon. It'll be nice to compare dyno runs with race pipe vs cats.

Who's doing the install anyway?...

EvoSport are doing everything upto the dyno:D

The new harness would be too costly so they spliced the O2 sensor wires. I'll take as many pictures as I can from underneath the car as well as in the engine bay before the heat shield is installed.

I will also post dyno results as well as video and sound clips.

excellent thanks....

I am working backwards. :)

Last part I replaced was the SS midpipe. I would recommend it. Good bang for the buck.

Originally posted by MPILOT
EvoSport are doing everything upto the dyno:D

The new harness would be too costly so they spliced the O2 sensor wires. I'll take as many pictures as I can from underneath the car as well as in the engine bay before the heat shield is installed.

I will also post dyno results as well as video and sound clips.

When will you post all this info? I'm VERY interested to see your results!!!

I'm very impressed by your dedication to get this stuff working. I know it isn't very cheap to do the mods you're doing. Evosport is a good place to chose for the work that's for sure.

Are you going to be at BimmerFest this year? I will be with the SPP guys but would love to chat with you more and also hear your car and compare results.

I have a Supersprint resonator by-pass pipe and have been working on a custom muffler of my own testing different flow rates and chamber designs. Seems like every aftermarket muffer has some good and bad points.

Please keep me updated on your testing! :)

late,
rick

I'd like to hear results as well

I have driven Euro E46 M3s, they pull harder than the US cars with their wider torque curve from down low. Everyone complains about the US headers and those big restricting cats that are stuck to the primaries of the stock header all the way upstream.

BUT there is nothing like the Supersprint headers and race pipe setup, the M3 is now an angry monster that easily gets pissed off!!!

First of all I have to say the sound is crazzzy!!!

Make sure to keep in 3rd or 4th with easy revs when passing cops.

I will post my dyno results on Monday as I'm waiting for another dyno run on Monday afternoon after installing the irridium spark plugs. My baseline dyno run showed good power till about 7,200 RPM where the power curve starts to level and slightly drop with alot of noise in the power curve. There was 2 misfires past 7,200 RPM on the dyno. I think BMWs advice on adding 1 liter of oil every 1,500 miles isn't a good idea cause that new oil that mixes with the older oil foul your plugs early.

Well the results with the old plugs, 32k hard driven miles, showed 289 wheel HP and about 24.4 HP and 18 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 7,600 RPM. I'm hoping for around 300 HP at the wheel with the irridium plugs, almost 360 HP at the crank.

The runs were performed on 4th gear, 3rd gear runs would be too unstable on the dyno with more loss of traction. I would love to know my 3rd gear power curve as I also installed EvoSport pulleys, power steering/alternator/water pump, which show most gains in the 1st 3 gears and about 3 HP at the wheel on 4th upwards.

There is no loss at any RPM, power gains are great over 5,000 RPM. The sound again is like nothing, nothing, nothing else.

Here is my dyno run that can be used for comparison, hope it helps. 309 at the rear wheels, 375 crank. Items installed: Euro Headers, no cat (O2 sensors attached to stock US pipe before Connector pipe, no errors run this way, interesting about the 'angle'), SS connector pipe, EH muffler, Schrick Cams (which add about 8-10hp). Dyno runs were done on 93 gas, stock plugs with about 12000 miles on both engine and plugs.

http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/images/sgdyno4.jpg

FWIW...
The run I posted was done in 5th gear, which is the 1 to 1 ratio. The 1:1 ratio is the normal gear that runs are pulled on, the results from pulls in gears other than the 1:1 can be misleading and should be corrected / adjusted for in the dyno software, if not the results will be a bit off (the dyno software needs to be told that you are running a 1:1.23 gear ratio). Since you started in 4th gear you should finish your testing in 4th gear and then find a dyno that can handle the M3's top speed, handle the 1:1 ratio.

How did you fix the CEL sgalaba? No 02 simulators just a different placement?

"I've seen dyno runs on cars showing that it comes to a point where less backpressure causes a loss of mid and high end torque, with minor, and at times loss of high end HP."

If any car makes more hp with more backpressure, that means the cam timing is wrong. E46M3 is vanos, constantly variable cam timing. I'm really starting to think that even less backpressure is absolutely the only improvement to M3 exhaust.
That is why I have an exhaust that is 100% straight through, twin 60mm minimum, all the way out. It really seems to work.

http://www.ground-control.com/e46_m3_muffler.htm

Originally posted by Hellabad
If any car makes more hp with more backpressure, that means the cam timing is wrong. E46M3 is vanos, constantly variable cam timing. I'm really starting to think that even less backpressure is absolutely the only improvement to M3 exhaust.
That is why I have an exhaust that is 100% straight through, twin 60mm minimum, all the way out. It really seems to work.

http://www.ground-control.com/e46_m3_muffler.htm

I agree with you 200%. I've said this time and time again on Roadfly, but the guys there say I don't know what I'm talking about and that "Less Backpressure = Less Torque".

That's total bull$hit, and I even posted dynograph's to prove it. Of course, the people who say "Less Backpressure = Less Torque" don't have any dynographs, they just quote their imaginary dyno runs, or the runs they "saw" someone else do.

IMO, it sounds like they are simply saying what they heard from someone else and making up BS info to backthemselves up.

Originally posted by MPILOT
I will post my dyno results on Monday as I'm waiting for another dyno run on Monday afternoon after installing the irridium spark plugs. My baseline dyno run showed good power till about 7,200 RPM where the power curve starts to level and slightly drop with alot of noise in the power curve. There was 2 misfires past 7,200 RPM on the dyno. I think BMWs advice on adding 1 liter of oil every 1,500 miles isn't a good idea cause that new oil that mixes with the older oil foul your plugs early.


On the Integra Type-R, Iridium spark plugs lost about 5whp on the dyno. I'm not saying it'll be the same way on the M3, but if you change the plugs and don't see any increase in performance, the Iridium's might not work on the M3 either.

I suggest bringing along a set of STOCK M3 platinum plugs to try in case you don't see gains from the Iridium plugs. Also, it will allow you to make a side by side comparison with the Iridium plugs vs. the stock plugs. If the Iridium plugs make more power than NEW stock M3 plugs, it would be a nice, easy and cheap mod!

On a side note, an Integra Type-R owner blew his engine when the electrode on an Iridium plug broke off and fell into the cylinder. The worst part is that everyone jumped on his back after his engine blew and said "Didn't you know? Iridium plugs lose hp on the Type-R". =(

i gotta jump in here quick.

If you run an exhaust that is too large for the power level you will loose tq down low.

i gained 18rwhp on a cai 99 cobra with just an offroad H pipe. With the blower the power gains really jump.

cats, baah, who needs um

If you tune your cam timing with cam gears, you shouldn't lose power anywhere in the powerband.

On the other hand, getting rid of all backpressure with STOCK cam timing will lead to a loss of low-end power.

so there are no problems with the SS pipe and the CEL? It would be interesting to note the difference in output throughout the power band b/w the race pipes and euro cats.

If you think that you won't end up with a CEL when running without cats and no electronic method of fooling the DME (witch im not sure is available for the MS S54 engine management system), Let me assure you you will end up with a CEL and a fault set for "poor catalization" or "O2 sensor ageing after cat", regardless of any angle that you install the after cat O2 sensors they will detect the the un catalized exhaust flow and set a fault, Garanteed.

Originally posted by Beavis
If you think that you won't end up with a CEL when running without cats and no electronic method of fooling the DME (witch im not sure is available for the MS S54 engine management system), Let me assure you you will end up with a CEL and a fault set for "poor catalization" or "O2 sensor ageing after cat", regardless of any angle that you install the after cat O2 sensors they will detect the the un catalized exhaust flow and set a fault, Garanteed.

I believe we shall soon see:az:

There is software out for this.

FWIW, we have dyno'd with and with out Euro cats and we found no improvement when running without Euro cats. It sure is funny, that euro cat flows so well!

So far I've put around 400 miles and there is no check engine light. I hope it stays that way, I was told if there was any problem it would appear within the first 100 miles.

My dyno results show 20 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 17 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.
There was 10 HP gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 24.4 HP gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.

These results were obtained when comparing the MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe VS MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe/Supersprint race pipe/Supersprint Headers/EvoSport UDP.

The maximum recorded was 289.4 HP and 235 lb-ft at the wheel compared to 270.6 and 231 lb-ft at the wheel with the MK-motorsport muffler and Supersprint x-pipe and old spark pugs.

These results were all obtained on 4th gear, I will get some more runs tomorrow on 4th as well as 5th for comparison.

I will post these results as well as the new results that I will get tomorrow with the new irridium plugs.

Good numbers, I am getting dyno'd on tuesday. I hope to see 280 rwhp stock ATLEAST or I will be dissapointed.

Originally posted by MPILOT
So far I've put around 400 miles and there is no check engine light. I hope it stays that way, I was told if there was any problem it would appear within the first 100 miles.

My dyno results show 20 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 17 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.
There was 10 HP gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 24.4 HP gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.

These results were obtained when comparing the MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe VS MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe/Supersprint race pipe/Supersprint Headers/EvoSport UDP.

The maximum recorded was 289.4 HP and 235 lb-ft at the wheel compared to 270.6 and 231 lb-ft at the wheel with the MK-motorsport muffler and Supersprint x-pipe and old spark pugs.

These results were all obtained on 4th gear, I will get some more runs tomorrow on 4th as well as 5th for comparison.

I will post these results as well as the new results that I will get tomorrow with the new irridium plugs.

I was wondering, what's the model for the stock plugs?

Also, I noticed you're choosing to ignore my advice about changing out the old spark plugs to new stock plugs to see if there's any difference. And then putting the Iridium spark plugs in and seeing how much power they yield over the new stock plugs. You may be suprised to see the Iridium spark plugs lose power. Also, it's unfair to compare used stock plugs to new Iridiums. Spark plugs are easy to change, so all this could be done between dyno runs during the cool down period.

I just installed the new spark plugs at EvoSport.


This is what we decided to do after some talk with Vadim, the top technician at EvoSport.

Today NGK Platinum Spark Plugs were installed. The car will be driven for around 500 miles and then on Friday we will run back to back dynos Vs the Denso Irridium spark plugs. The ECU would need a couple of 100 miles to adjust to the new spark level and the denso plugs arrive Thursday, so Friday is just the perfect time to run the results.

The guys at Evosport are very skilled and its just so amazing how technical they are. I have dealt with so many tuners around, but I get assurance and peace of mind when Evosport are working on my M3.

Simon and Brad's experience and knowledge power EvoSport, with the genius Vadim as the technical brain providing a dominate force in the tuning world. Vadim is constantly thinking and testing, I have never seen him relaxed or idle. Look out for EvoSport creations that will be released in the near future.

I'll be posting my duno runs with full comparison on Friday.

Keep Posted!!!

Originally posted by MPILOT
I just installed the new spark plugs at EvoSport.


This is what we decided to do after some talk with Vadim, the top technician at EvoSport.

Today NGK Platinum Spark Plugs were installed. The car will be driven for around 500 miles and then on Friday we will run back to back dynos Vs the Denso Irridium spark plugs. The ECU would need a couple of 100 miles to adjust to the new spark level and the denso plugs arrive Thursday, so Friday is just the perfect time to run the results.

The guys at Evosport are very skilled and its just so amazing how technical they are. I have dealt with so many tuners around, but I get assurance and peace of mind when Evosport are working on my M3.

Simon and Brad's experience and knowledge power EvoSport, with the genius Vadim as the technical brain providing a dominate force in the tuning world. Vadim is constantly thinking and testing, I have never seen him relaxed or idle. Look out for EvoSport creations that will be released in the near future.

I'll be posting my duno runs with full comparison on Friday.

Keep Posted!!!

I can't wait to see your info, I'm glad to see you're putting in new NGK plugs first so you can see the comparison between them and the Denso Iridium's. I also have a lot of experience tuning cars (but not BMW's). I had a Turbocharged Integra Type-R with 278HP at the wheels from a 1.8L 4-cyl. The car only weighed 2700 lbs so you can imagine how fast it was! =) I did ALL the tuning myself. Cam Timing, Air Fuel etc. was all done by myself on the dyno.

The car was cool and all, but it's no M3. The M3 is pimp, whereas the Type-R was "cool" to all the punk ass kids in my area.

I just thought I'd mention that since you probably think I'm some punk ass fool that doesn't know the first thing about tuning a car.

Keep us posted,
KJ

P.S. I really appreciate all the info you're posting. Too much guys talk smack and don't post ANY dyno info...all they do is regurgitate info they heard from a "tuner".

Nice results Sgalaba. By the way are you using 272 cams from schrick. I'm thinking of cams, did you find a good software to go with it?

Are you running O2 simulators, or is the resonator enough to reduce the voltage reading?

Thanks KJM3 for your advice on the iridium plugs, I will post results on Friday as soon as I get them.

I took my car to get dyno'd today and the operator didnt know how to get rpm readings.
All i got was HP readings and Air/Fuel mixture.

Anyone know how its done?

I'm pretty sure that you have to have a wire connected to the number one spark plug wire and then you have to tell the dyno at what increment in degrees the motor fires per rev. 360 degrees divided by number of cylinders, that way it knows if it is a 4, 6, 8 etc. for proper RPM reading. I'm pretty sure about this but I could be wrong.

How do you get to the number 1 spark plug?

---Off Topic---
Hey, how is your exhaust doing? Got any pics? I am planning on getting the same exhaust and wanted to see how it looks - I also have a PY m3
----

if you get the chance..post a sound clip! Would love to hear it as I'm thinking about doing the same. BTW:clap: :buttrock

Originally posted by JaWeb
How do you get to the number 1 spark plug?
----


You have to take the cover off the top of the engine where the M logo is. From there you will see the wires.


Originally posted by JaWeb
---Off Topic---
Hey, how is your exhaust doing? Got any pics? I am planning on getting the same exhaust and wanted to see how it looks - I also have a PY m3
----

No pics yet. I will work on the car this weekend and then I should have some pics. The exhaust is on but not properly, the mid pipe is off so I have to put that on first and align everything. Don't worry, I have to share pics with the peeps!

Originally posted by sgalaba
Here is my dyno run that can be used for comparison, hope it helps. 309 at the rear wheels, 375 crank. Items installed: Euro Headers, no cat (O2 sensors attached to stock US pipe before Connector pipe, no errors run this way, interesting about the 'angle'), SS connector pipe, EH muffler, Schrick Cams (which add about 8-10hp). Dyno runs were done on 93 gas, stock plugs with about 12000 miles on both engine and plugs.


Hey,

So I'm trying to understand...

You added:
Euro Headers, SS Connector Pipe, EH Muffler, Shrick Cams

Did you dyno before you added anything to see if you were at 333 at the crank to start with?

Does the connector pipe add anything? I'm guessing from the Muffler you got maybe 7-8 hp... 8-10 from the cams... So 25ish from the headers and connector?

I forget -- do you have a UDP installed too for another 5-7ish?

Thanks

Originally posted by MPILOT
So far I've put around 400 miles and there is no check engine light. I hope it stays that way, I was told if there was any problem it would appear within the first 100 miles.

My dyno results show 20 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 17 lb-ft gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.
There was 10 HP gain at the wheel at 3,000 RPM and no loss through out with 24.4 HP gain at the wheel at 7,570 RPM.

These results were obtained when comparing the MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe VS MK-motorsport muffler/Supersprint x-pipe/Supersprint race pipe/Supersprint Headers/EvoSport UDP.

The maximum recorded was 289.4 HP and 235 lb-ft at the wheel compared to 270.6 and 231 lb-ft at the wheel with the MK-motorsport muffler and Supersprint x-pipe and old spark pugs.

These results were all obtained on 4th gear, I will get some more runs tomorrow on 4th as well as 5th for comparison.

I will post these results as well as the new results that I will get tomorrow with the new irridium plugs.

Hey MPilot. Thanks for the info. Love it.. Some questions:

#1 When you originally dynoed, and only had MK-Motorsport muffler and S.S. X-Pipe installed, were you at 270.6 or at 273.5 at the wheels?

#2 Do you think at stock (pre muffler/pipe) you were at 265 hp at the wheels?

#3 does the x-pipe give any gains? (I'm thinking 1-2?)

#4 I have a 03 SMG. If I installed the Euro headers or SS headers and race pipe, don't I need euro cats?

Thanks... Just learning the basics of how this stuff works...

So Evosport is installing an aftermarket exhaust system without cats on a car they know will be used on a public road? I thought there was a small ($25K?) fine for that and breaking Federal law, especially in the People's Republic of Cali... plus can't they lose the license or something? Unless, of course, your stock system was damaged and needed to be replaced and Evosport wants to install a test system...

Thursday we were at the track .. here's a lap around wet track at GingerMan Raceway. Also gives a good idea what car car now sounds like.

Note: Link below is 10MB and needs QuickTime Player to view.

Also for fun watch the Green Key Fob!

Wet Lap Around GingerMan Raceway (http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/movies/GMTestCDROM.mov)

Nice Scott...very Nice...

Originally posted by M3Fella
#4 I have a 03 SMG. If I installed the Euro headers or SS headers and race pipe, don't I need euro cats?


You can spend the extra 3K for Euro Cats or you can get the SS X-Pipe which positions the O2 sensors 15 degrees (or 25?) away from the main exhaust flow. That way, you dont get a CEL.

So spend $1,100 on Euro Headers + $900 on X-Pipe for 20HP
or
$1,100 Euro Headers + 3k for Euro Cats for 10 HP

Easy choice for me :evil2

Originally posted by sgalaba
Thursday we were at the track .. here's a lap around wet track at GingerMan Raceway. Also gives a good idea what car car now sounds like.

Note: Link below is 10MB and needs QuickTime Player to view.

Also for fun watch the Green Key Fob!

Wet Lap Around GingerMan Raceway (http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/movies/GMTestCDROM.mov)

Awesome Vid! The car sounds great! :buttrock
A few questions:
You took your stereo out?
Why did you change your steering wheel?
And what is that package on your passenger floor? Looks like bubble wrap..

The car has been turned into a race car, so the items you see that I have replaced are for better function and weight savings, like aluminum diamond plate floor panels, same for the steering wheel, it's lighter so it responds quicker.

Scott - where around Chicago is "Gingerman" located? I've never heard of that track.

GingerMan Raceway (http://www.gingermanraceway.com/)

i have Euro Headers & Cats for sale guys!! so if want them. send me a PM! ...this way u can have a much bette flow than what u have now and a 10hp gain!

beleive me , it is worth it!

MPilot: What's the latest word? Inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks!
KJ

Duuuuuude you're killing us! What's up?

the car shoots CELs off every once in a while now...so much for running straight pipe :az:

Jet,

You heard this from MPilot?

heard from someone else with the race pipes

Jet,

What was his setup?

Actually, it was Brad at evosport who told me this. He doesn't have a solution for this just yet.

There is software out for this. Have Brad give JimC a call.

So what had happen? Did some one set us up the bomb?

(not exact all your base, adapted for the purposes of this post

What up Mpilot? Issues?http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/overhere/comedy/toholdfiles/basepics/base_cats1.jpg

I feel mpilot doesn't wish to discuss this matter with us. The CEL comes on every 300 miles so it has to be reset at those intervals.

I'm still waiting for the Denso irridium spark plugs to come in, they were ordered 3 weeks ago.

As soon as they come in EvoSport will put my car on the dyno to run back to back test vs the stock new spark plugs (NGK Platinum).

For now my car put out 289.4 whp at 7,600 RPM and a gain of 25.5 WHP or 31 HP at the flywheel at 7,900 RPM with the old NGK platinum. So you can say that if my cars performs well with the new plugs I can expect about 30 HP extra at the flywheel at 7,900 RPM for a total of 363 HP.

As for the CEL, thats true every 300 miles my SES is being reset, however there is no loss of power only matter is too much flow and colder temperature at the downstream O2 sensor which is causing the CEL lights to activate. EvoSport are in the final stages of completing their high flow metallic cats rated at 100 cpi same flow as SS, hamann, MK, Kelleners and Nowack. These cats will go on very soon and should provide some more back pressure down low and no loss in the higher revs. Currently there was no loss throughout the power curves.

Keep posted as the dyno sheets are soon to be released.

Speaking of software, I talked to a representative for Eurobahn at Bimmerfest. He told me with the Powerchip, he could guarantee me a gain of 40 horsepower and if I had an exhaust and a cold air intake a gain of 40+. Bear in mind this is at the flywheel, but still that's 20+ at the wheels.

He guaranteed it, so I'm searching and asking questions to pick up more information, but still, the possibility is there......

Chris

I've seen the powerchip gains, and the maximum was 9 whp with the 91 AKI and about 13 WHP with 93 AKI. If they meant 20 WHP from just the chip, please post that info, dyno results and spec.

I'm working on geting the 100 cpi cats, Airbox, and chip in the next trip to EvoSport.

If I can reach 310 WHP before the cam upgrade Iwould be set, we'll see...

You getting evosports airbox setup? I thought you were going with a euro tuner setup.

Yes I'm still waiting for Delage Sport CF airbox and ECU which claim over 30 HP gain at the flywheel with 94 AKI (98 RON), we'll see what it makes with the 91 AKI (95 RON).

EvoSport are doing the install and the dyno.

MPilot,

Do you have pictures of the airbox setup? I have never heard of that brand nor what it looks like. Thanks!

Here you go John


http://www.bimmer.ru/frames/1news.htm

It looks like the CSL CF piece only it retains the AFM so it's emission legal and works with an ECU upgrade rather than an alpha N with stand alone engine management.

I think it would be possible to delete the AFM from that box and run a tec3 SEM alpha N kit and gain another 20 HP on top of the 30 HP claimed with the restricitng AFM.

How much?
http://h2racing.free.fr/IMAGES/delage%20sport%201.jpg
http://www.germancarfans.com/photos/3020702.001/1052big.jpg

It is about in the $2000 for intake and software.

wow, i now see where BMW got its inspiration for the CF airbox...

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/engine-tech/airbox_symposium/dtm-airbox-1.jpg
:wave:

Well, well, well...check what Turner is going to have for sale.
:clap:
Scroll to the bottom:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/project_e46m3.shtml
:eek:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/intake/intake_e46m3_plenum_lg.jpg :eek:

:alright

:boink

:love1

Originally posted by mpowerme
Well, well, well...check what Turner is going to have for sale.
:clap:
Scroll to the bottom:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/project_e46m3.shtml
:eek:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/image/intake/intake_e46m3_plenum_lg.jpg :eek:

:alright

:boink

:love1

As inspector gadget would say,

WOWSERS!:eek: :eek:

:jump3:

This has been out for a while in Germany, but with no ECU software.

It goes for 2,200 Euro in Germany

http://www.e46shop.de/

The only thing is TMS probably would need to make his own software so it would take a while to get it ready.

that will optimize performance on all M3s. Each car is unique and should be tuned accordingly. At least that is my philosophy. If I were going to install an airbox, I'd have a motec or at the very least have the stock ecu re-programmed in house. I'm not a big fan of plug and play fuel and timing optimization because of the many underlying variances among individual setups. I don't doubt it would work, I just don't think it would work terribly well.

I don't want to rain of the box that TWS has, but if you have not read the write up I did sometime ago on the Hamman airbox here is the link.

The reason I bring this up is when I look at the TWS and the Hamman airbox, I can not help myself but see common design shapes here.

BMW spent a lot of time developing the air intake and airbox on the E46 M3 to address the best balance of air flow and air pressures across the rpm range.

An airbox like this are really only good for a very short rpm range say 6000-8000 and you must have upgraded everthing to take advantage of this: CAMS, Headers, Exhaust and the most important item is the diff gearing needs to be changed to either a 4.27 or 4.44, which currently there are none available, to keep the rpms up when you shift so you don't fall out of the rpm range. Even the 3.91 will not help here.

Hamman Airbox Review (http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/hhairbox.htm)

Originally posted by sgalaba
I don't want to rain of the box that TWS has, but if you have not read the write up I did sometime ago on the Hamman airbox here is the link.

The reason I bring this up is when I look at the TWS and the Hamman airbox, I can not help myself but see common design shapes here.

BMW spent a lot of time developing the air intake and airbox on the E46 M3 to address the best balance of air flow and air pressures across the rpm range.

An airbox like this are really only good for a very short rpm range say 6000-8000 and you must have upgraded everthing to take advantage of this: CAMS, Headers, Exhaust and the most important item is the diff gearing needs to be changed to either a 4.27 or 4.44, which currently there are none available, to keep the rpms up when you shift so you don't fall out of the rpm range. Even the 3.91 will not help here.

Hamman Airbox Review (http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/hhairbox.htm)

I agree with you. The plan is certainly that this airbox will not work alone. But gearing is an interesting point!

M pilot. I would love to hear some sound clips or videos of you car. It must sound so awsome.:)
www.socalm3.com

Another video, from last weekend at Putnam Park. Euro headers/cats, connector pipe, EH muffler, cams

Putnam Park -hot lap (http://www.sgmotorsports.com/m3e46/movies/PutnamCDROM.mov)

your car is freaking sweet...
How do you like the cams? Did you get them from turnermotorsports.. I heard that cams are not worth doing unless you tune the software...

MPilot, any update. Evo have their new cats yet? What about CEL?

EvoSport are still working on the cats development.

I hope to get those Denso irridiums by Friday so I can do the final dyno run and post all of them for comparison.
I ordered them over 5 weeks ago and still on backorder.

Anyone know a local Denso dealer who would have those plugs?:dunno

Originally posted by MPILOT
EvoSport are still working on the cats development.

I hope to get those Denso irridiums by Friday so I can do the final dyno run and post all of them for comparison.
I ordered them over 5 weeks ago and still on backorder.

Anyone know a local Denso dealer who would have those plugs?:dunno

NGK also makes Iridium plugs. As far as Spark Plugs go, my favorite brand would be NGK, they make quality plugs that have never let me down. Perhaps you can find the proper size for the M3 from NGK's website, there are a lot of NGK dealers around, so finding them should be no problem.

I'll look for some NGKs today



open this link on realplayer :buttrock

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.mpa (http://)

Originally posted by MPILOT
I'll look for some NGKs today





http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.MPG (http://)

No offense my man, but your shop sux at getting spark plugs. I ordered mine and got them in a week, using ground shipping from cali to new york. Try here they're in cali and can have them to you in a few days, also you can have my old irridium since I'm trying out something new!!!!

Click HERE (https://key.2coolweb.com/monarchproductsinc/)

Hey Ferris thanks alot. I found some irridiums in stock at Monarch and I'll pick them up tomorrow. What spark plugs are you geting now?
Are you still going for some juice?

Denso's are alright, but I'd stick with NGK. Ferris, funny you mention monarch, they used to be by my house and I started going there 7 years ago. It was an undercover spot that my friend told me about and I used to buy honda plugs by the boxes for half the price of anywhere else. Small world, I guess they moved, I'll have to check it out next time I'm down that way as I don't recall seeing it for awhile now.

Question: What kind of plug does the stock M3 use? Is it a Bosch Platinum?

Originally posted by MPILOT
Hey Ferris thanks alot. I found some irridiums in stock at Monarch and I'll pick them up tomorrow. What spark plugs are you geting now?
Are you still going for some juice?

I'm going to try a plain old Copper NGK plug but one step colder then stock. This is part of my juice plan, that ironically is on hold for now, until I can find a new job current job is sucking soo I rather stockpile as much cash as possible.

In the works however is Juice, Bilstien/H&R and gearing...

I want to know more about your cams when you get chance what are the specs and what is your opinion...

Chris

Originally posted by KJM3
Question: What kind of plug does the stock M3 use? Is it a Bosch Platinum?

NGK Two electrode plats, I have the P/n at home if you need it

Originally posted by Jet
Denso's are alright, but I'd stick with NGK. Ferris, funny you mention monarch, they used to be by my house and I started going there 7 years ago. It was an undercover spot that my friend told me about and I used to buy honda plugs by the boxes for half the price of anywhere else. Small world, I guess they moved, I'll have to check it out next time I'm down that way as I don't recall seeing it for awhile now.

I need to move to SoCAL, minus crappy gas you guys seem to have all the cool sheit. F new york

Originally posted by Ferris
NGK Two electrode plats, I have the P/n at home if you need it

If you could provide me the part number, or plug model number, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

Originally posted by KJM3
If you could provide me the part number, or plug model number, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

Cuz I'm sooo nice today :
NGK DCPR8EKP

Originally posted by Ferris
Cuz I'm sooo nice today :
NGK DCPR8EKP

Thanks man! :)

BTW, after doing some research on the net, I saw your post on the Audiworld forums! hehehe

MPilot: Post those Dyno runs as soon as you can. I'm DYING to know if the Denso Iridium's produce more power than the stock NGK's! =)

I also found this link with some interesting info. From what I got from it, the Denso Iridium's lost 27HP on the guys car. Sounds totally impossible, but you guys can read for yourself.

http://www.stangnet.com/tech/lee50guru/dense_tech.html

They do make power!!!

The power curve has been cleaned up a bit. From 6,900 RPM begins the main HP gains. With a range of 5 - 7.5 WHP gain.

The maximum gain over stock at 7,900 RPM is 29 WHP which translates to around 36 HP gain at the flywheel. Thats MK-Motorsport muffler, Supersprint connecting pipe, mid-pipe and Headers, EvoSport UDP, Denso Irridium spark plugs.

Car is due for inspection II in 2k miles. I will run some more dyno runs after that.


Stock: 270.81 HP 230.67 lb-ft SAE
Full Exh./UDP: 287.52 HP 239.68 lb-ft SAE
Full Exh./UDP/Denso: 290.69 HP 240.48 lb-ft SAE

Note the second run was today with new stock NGK platinum that had been installed for the last 3000 miles. The final run is with the new Denso irridium which was installed on the dyno and ran 10 minutes after the second run.

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.002 (http://)

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.019 (http://)

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.021 (http://)

Originally posted by KJM3
I also found this link with some interesting info. From what I got from it, the Denso Iridium's lost 27HP on the guys car. Sounds totally impossible, but you guys can read for yourself.

http://www.stangnet.com/tech/lee50guru/dense_tech.html

Hmm.. I thought he said that it gained 2HP over the NGK's. But his report is confusing. He mentioned a G-tech reading the HP gain??
Isnt a G-tech for .25 mi estimates?

Originally posted by JaWeb
Hmm.. I thought he said that it gained 2HP over the NGK's. But his report is confusing. He mentioned a G-tech reading the HP gain??
Isnt a G-tech for .25 mi estimates?

The GTech Pro Comp can't be relied on for accuracy imho. They are fun to use tho :)

Originally posted by MPILOT
They do make power!!!

The power curve has been cleaned up a bit. From 6,900 RPM begins the main HP gains. With a range of 5 - 7.5 WHP gain.

The maximum gain over stock at 7,900 RPM is 29 WHP which translates to around 36 HP gain at the flywheel. Thats MK-Motorsport muffler, Supersprint connecting pipe, mid-pipe and Headers, EvoSport UDP, Denso Irridium spark plugs.

Car is due for inspection II in 2k miles. I will run some more dyno runs after that.


Stock: 270.81 HP 230.67 lb-ft SAE
Full Exh./UDP: 287.52 HP 239.68 lb-ft SAE
Full Exh./UDP/Denso: 290.69 HP 240.48 lb-ft SAE

Note the second run was today with new stock NGK platinum that had been installed for the last 3000 miles. The final run is with the new Denso irridium which was installed on the dyno and ran 10 minutes after the second run.

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.002 (http://)

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.019 (http://)

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/DYNORUN.021 (http://)

GREAT INFO MPilot, looks like the Denso's made 3.17 whp over the new NGK's which is definitely significant.

I'm having a problem viewing the files (also the link is broken), do I need a special program to view them? I'm dying to see the dyno runs!

Thanks for all the helpful info!

- KJ

Are you still having any CEL issues?

What would you say the noise level is like in cabin?

MPilot,

I like what you've been doing, we are going to have to start trading some info.

I'm at 293.8rwhp with my current mods. I have cams, eisenmann sections 1 & 2 and SA software coming in a week. I am actually going to install all for the dyno run because I will have to tune the software anyway. I'll let you know how this works out.

P.S. I have a fan clutch deleate mod made. After I complete testing I will have it for sale... once I prove a power gain that is.

Joel

Originally posted by KJM3
Thanks man! :)

BTW, after doing some research on the net, I saw your post on the Audiworld forums! hehehe

MPilot: Post those Dyno runs as soon as you can. I'm DYING to know if the Denso Iridium's produce more power than the stock NGK's! =)

I also found this link with some interesting info. From what I got from it, the Denso Iridium's lost 27HP on the guys car. Sounds totally impossible, but you guys can read for yourself.

http://www.stangnet.com/tech/lee50guru/dense_tech.html

yeah I missed my audi so much work and blood I poured into that car... Anyway no sweat about the plugs.

MP: Nice work glad you got the plugs and all is rocking along nicely. Since you're catching up to me power wise it looks like I have more work to do :D

Can you install headers and leave the factory cats on? Or will that make it pointless to have headers? Also does it make it overwhelmingly loud to have the race pipe on there? I would love to put headers on my car but dont want it to be so loud I cant hear myself think.

and what about a Hiflow cat?

Originally posted by mbanks21
Can you install headers and leave the factory cats on? Or will that make it pointless to have headers? Also does it make it overwhelmingly loud to have the race pipe on there? I would love to put headers on my car but dont want it to be so loud I cant hear myself think.

On the US car the answer is no because BMW built the CATs into the header on US models:mad:

So you would have to do high flow cats or go to the euro setup.:boink

Thanks guys for your patience and support. Its been alot of fun.

I have put over 3,500 miles so far with this setup. The interesting thing is my dyno right after the install showed 289.4 WHP and 234 lb-ft, after 3,500 miles of runing with CEL lights that activate every 20-400 miles (depending on many variables) the car is still pulling storng and actually gained about 5lb-ft at the wheel to 239.68 lb-ft, it seems like it lost 1.88 WHP, but really this is caused by the initial run to deactiviate DSC which carries some more heat into the next test runs.

What we learnt is:

The CEL lights do promote a slightly richer A/F raito and no loss of HP, atleast nothing significant.

The car runs extreemly strong with an extra 20 MPH registered at the end of certain straightaways.

Raced an F360 spyder from 0-45 MPH and took off by 1/2 a cars length.

Raced an F355 berlinetta from 0-75 MPH and took off by one car length.

Warning: keep it under 3,000 miles any where infested with cops.

I have been testing O2 simulators for the last 900 miles. I'll report on that as soon as its completed. Evosports cats are also in the plans once completed.


To see a video clip download this link on realplayer

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.mpa

:b_blue:

Ferris, Sgalaba, mpowerme and Tec548 looking forward for more ///M mods.:biglaughb

Ferris and Sgalaba did you guys position the EGT under the pre-cat O2 sensor?

Hey Guys: MPilot asked me to post a video of his headers and race pipe. Here it is, enjoy!

Video of MPilot's Headers and Racepipe (http://members.roadfly.com/kj-typer/deadlink)

Nevermind, I just noticed he posted it above already!

Sounds great in that tunnel! Good luck with everything, I hope it all comes to be perfect sooner or later.
Peace.

thanks KJM3. I'll post some more videos, maybe this weekend from Thunderhill.

Very nice...

The CEL lights do promote a slightly richer A/F raito and no loss of HP, atleast nothing significant.

Isnt a richer a/f ratio a good thing??

What is "EGT"?

A richer a/f ratio is a good thing for F/I engines. For an engine like the S54, we need the optimum A/F ratio at around 13:1.

I was at high 12s when stock, I need to find out exactly where I am right now and tune it in the software when airbox gets here.

We'll see in the next couple of weeks.

Exhaust Gas Temperature sensor. Originally its located right under the pre-cat O2 sensor on the left bank.

EGT as well as post O2 sensor values all contribute to CEL.

Originally posted by MPILOT
Ferris and Sgalaba did you guys position the EGT under the pre-cat O2 sensor?

MY EGT sensor is located on the piping before the cat, it's a stock bung on the Euro cats. I'm not sure where you are speaking about by under, but I'd posistion it slightly across and in front or further down stream from the O2. Reason being you don't want it effecting the EGT reading, due to radiation.

I was just looking at the factory seting and they had it positioned by the pre-cat O2 sensor. EvoSport installed my EGT past the pre O2 downstream right before the post O2 sensor. I'm guessing that far down the temp are considerably colder and it needs to be repositioned closer upstream.

I'll do that and check on the CEL.

Originally posted by MPILOT
Thanks guys for your patience and support. Its been alot of fun.

I have put over 3,500 miles so far with this setup. The interesting thing is my dyno right after the install showed 289.4 WHP and 234 lb-ft, after 3,500 miles of runing with CEL lights that activate every 20-400 miles (depending on many variables) the car is still pulling storng and actually gained about 5lb-ft at the wheel to 239.68 lb-ft, it seems like it lost 1.88 WHP, but really this is caused by the initial run to deactiviate DSC which carries some more heat into the next test runs.

What we learnt is:

The CEL lights do promote a slightly richer A/F raito and no loss of HP, atleast nothing significant.

The car runs extreemly strong with an extra 20 MPH registered at the end of certain straightaways.

Raced an F360 spyder from 0-45 MPH and took off by 1/2 a cars length.

Raced an F355 berlinetta from 0-75 MPH and took off by one car length.

Warning: keep it under 3,000 miles any where infested with cops.

I have been testing O2 simulators for the last 900 miles. I'll report on that as soon as its completed. Evosports cats are also in the plans once completed.


To see a video clip download this link on realplayer

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.mpa

:b_blue:

Ferris, Sgalaba, mpowerme and Tec548 looking forward for more ///M mods.:biglaughb
:evil2

Damn that sounds good! How is it with windows up?

I am looking forward to a similar setup!

:la:

Twisted posted a cool video of the 911TT take down...

911TT takedown (http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/forum.php?postid=3162558&page=2) :biglaughb

MPilot: Any luck on getting those Dyno Graph's up yet?

Thanks!

Originally posted by KJM3
MPilot: Any luck on getting those Dyno Graph's up yet?

Thanks!

Nevermind, I downloaded the viewer off Dynojet's website.

The graphs are cool! =)

For everyone's convenience, here are the aforementioned dyno runs.

http://members.roadfly.com/kj-typer/Bone Stock vs Latest Run.jpg

http://members.roadfly.com/kj-typer/Stock NGK vs Denso Iridium.jpg

how much r they??

Originally posted by MPILOT http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.mpa

Or just right-click "save as" to your desktop, change ".mpa" to ".mpg", and play it back in Quicktime. This works perfectly if you're having problems with RealPlayer.

OK now that this looks sooo good:clap: the real question Mpilot:

Group buy:devillook

See what Evosport can do, let's call it a stage I package or something and discount it up!:redspot

I need more power!!:conc:

Denso Irridiums go for $12 each.

I will work out the pricing of a StageI as a group buy. I need to know how many interested.

Originally posted by MPILOT
Thanks guys for your patience and support. Its been alot of fun.

To see a video clip download this link on realplayer

http://members.roadfly.com/mpilot/MPILOT-Headers.mpa

:b_blue:

Ferris, Sgalaba, mpowerme and Tec548 looking forward for more ///M mods.:biglaughb

Dude, are you late for you plane???;)

Sounds awesome.

The best location for the EGT Sensor on a US car that is having it's headers replace is to position the sensor in the same location as in the US Header. If it's not position in the header it will set a code that the EGT sensor is not getting hot in time for the software code.

What's really funny here is I have Euro headers and Euro Cats on the car and it still does it, but doest NOT set a 'Check Engne/Service Engine Soon' light, just sets a code. My software tuner at this time has not spent the time to find the code location to adjust the time value. He installs the EGT in the Header. He just needs to compare Euor code to US.

I will have the EGT repositioned right after the header collector, hopefully that will stop the 79 code. We'll see, I'll report on next time the car hits the dyno with the airbox...

:clap: Which "airbox" would that be?:devillook

Please say Delage!:evil2

I am in the process of testing several airboxes including Delage and GruppeM. We'll see what results show.

I'm getting several requests for the StageI (full racing exhaust)on bimmerforums on my PM. Please email me directly for the Group buy MPILOT@roadfly.com

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=959914#post959914

Ignition solutions just released their high performance coils for the S54. On the 330i there was a 5 WHP gain throughout the revs. Should be testing that soon on the Dyno when the ECU gets reprogrammed.

Keep posted.... I'm waiting for my ECU to arrive with the new software. Hoping for over 185 MPH!!!

Originally posted by MPILOT
Ignition solutions just released their high performance coils for the S54. On the 330i there was a 5 WHP gain throughout the revs. Should be testing that soon on the Dyno when the ECU gets reprogrammed.

Keep posted.... I'm waiting for my ECU to arrive with the new software. Hoping for over 185 MPH!!!

Which software is this:dunno

Good job!:evil2

I am testing a new software on 91 AKI. I'll post results next week.

I'm gonna run the car on the dyno with 91 VS 100 AKI.

Currently the AFR was between 14 and 13 till 6,000 RPM, then 13 to 12 till 7,500 RPM and by 8,000 RPM the AFR dropped down to 11.

So the software should help keep the AFR between 12 and 13. The car is running rich right now to protect itself with the SES light on.

SES light on ... what area/type of codes are you picking up?

Originally posted by MPILOT
The car is running rich right now to protect itself with the SES light on.

I thought the SES light promoted slightly richer AFR?

Originally posted by JaWeb
I thought the SES light promoted slightly richer AFR?

That's what he said.

12:1 AFR on a NA car is too rich. 13.3:1 or so should be good.

I'm getting code 79 EGT and 178 and 179 for both post O2 sensors.
The EGT is being repositioned and the simulators are going through final testing, hopefully the codes will dissappear then.

The 91 AKI is a big contributing factor to the low 11:1 AFR at 8,000 RPM, I believe that the knock sensors are busy protecting the engine at the highest revs.
Once the SES light go away the car will have about 12.0 AFR at 8,000 RPM and show another ~5WHP gain. Then the software should correct the AFR to about 13:1. I believe the peak HP is generated right before the point where the AFR starts dropping to the low 12s, in my case that was at 7,500 RPM.

Sgalaba what AFR are you running between 6,000 RPM and 8,000 RPM?

I will perform tests on the Dyno with 91 AKI equivalent to 95 RON Euro spec. Then a blend of 2 ratios of 91 to 1 ratio of 100 AKI to have an end result of 94 AKI which is equivalent to 98 RON. Then the final test will be the 100 AKI. Hopefully this will help us find out the HP/AKI benefit.
Furthermore this will allow us to see whether knocking in the final 500 RPM of the range is causing a drop in AFR, and whether this can be alleviated by introducing higher octane fuel.



How about 112 AKI Unleaded for the non-cat tests...

This is all very interesting. Can't wait to hear the results. Can you get 94 at the pump where you are? That is what I always use, figure better for the motor.

what AFR are you running between 6,000 RPM and 8,000 RPM?

Depends on what the goal is:

For max DYNO HP numbers keep it in the very very low 13's and from going into the 12's.

Thanks sgalaba I'll keep it around 13.

Originally posted by MPILOT
Thanks sgalaba I'll keep it around 13.



I am newbie here but just wanted to say your car looks amazing. I would love to see some more pics.

Originally posted by M3 2 NV
This is all very interesting. Can't wait to hear the results. Can you get 94 at the pump where you are? That is what I always use, figure better for the motor.

I always use Sunoco Ultra 94 in Toronto as well, but I personally think that Sunoco 94 has less potential energy than Esso 92 (therefore yielding less HP). Sunoco uses Ethanol to raise it's octane which isn't really good for "power". Someone said they dyno'ed Sunoco 94 vs. Esso 92 (on a chipped 3 series) and got more power with Esso 92.

Bummer, since I live close to 2 Sunoco's and always use Ultra 94.

I wish I had access to anything over 91 AKI at pump prices. The only thing around over 91 is 100 AKI, which goes for $4.99 on the track or $5.49 at certain 76 gas stations.

When Nowack did their testing on their N400 M3, they found out that it made 404 HP (DIN) with Shell Optimax 99 (RON), equivalent to a Shell 95 (AKI) which sadly doesn't exist in North America. Nowack's N400 made 385 HP (DIN) with regular pump 95 (RON) equivalent to our 91 AKI.

The N400 showed a benefit of 4.75 HP/RON, I wonder what a relatively stock S54's benefit would be...

What are you (MPilot, Sgalaba) using to tune the software???

For now I'm dealing with a software tuner for changing my ECU program for 91 AKI.

However, I will be playing with a SEM down the line.

badmonkey how much did sias charge for installing and tuning your TEC3?

Did they cancel your AFM?

Mpilot

Is your tuner using a commercially available editor, reverse engineered the ECU, other?

Vic gave me a good deal on the Tec3 being a repeat customer and my car being the test mule for his plug-n-play. He comped me a couple of tuning sessions, I still have one more with the cams. Generally an hour or so of dyno time, and an hour of Vic's time are enough to tune to hardware changes.

He has his own software that is being tested now. The commercially available editor doesn't allow for any vanos alterations. We'll see the results in the next few days.

What cams are you using?

so total is 3-4 hrs between install and tuning of Tec3?

Sorry, for clarification the Tec3 is on my E36 M3, DSR cams. Initial install is about an 1.5 hours, tuning an hour or so on the dyno.

Just watching the development of the S54 while contemplating the upgrade :)

So the plug and play Tec3 allows for a quick 1 hr tuning on the dyno?

Thats pretty good, I'm looking forward for this after the cams. Just want to get the most out of the siemens ECU before going to the SEM.

So did you gain about 20 WHP from the Tec3 on your E36, was it the 3.2 OBDII? Did that come with fuel injectors/control kit?

badmonkey, Do you still have your AFM?

Correct, HFM is deleted, now speed density. Don't have the graphs handy, but average gains were in the 20hp range over standard intake/chip upgrades. Car is OBDI, but doesn't matter if starting from OBDI or OBDII since ecu is replaced entirely.

The biggest hurdle with the S54 will be the DBW throttle. Don't know of any SEM that can handle that chore.

Judging by your progress, adding cams and some more tuning is going to be difficult to improve on! Can't wait to see the results.

I dont think the TEC3 can control the Double VANOS system as well.

I'd love to delete the AFM, GOOD JOB!

I will look in to it in depth after the cams. Might have to look at the more expensive Motec. I know a company in Europe who builds M race engines and use Motec when they delete the AFM.

They were able to control the double vanos on the Euro 3.2L OBDII M3 and took the output of the S50B32 up from 321 HP to 400 HP with full exhaust, cams, airbox and Motec.

1/4 mile times?

I don't have any numbers yet.

But I'm hoping for around 12-12.5 sec 1/4 mile and 4 sec. 0-60 with the 400+HP kit that I'm working on with the 3.91...

Any news on O2 sims or software?

I wanna do this:mad: but want it to work right with no light:95

Software is done and the kit will be installed and on the Dyno next week. I will release all my test results from pump gas up to 112 leaded gas.

How does 8,800 RPM sound like with 112 octane.

ENVY...

That car is going to be so...:devillook -ish

-Prince

Originally posted by MPILOT
I'd love to delete the AFM, GOOD JOB!

I will look in to it in depth after the cams. Might have to look at the more expensive Motec. I know a company in Europe who builds M race engines and use Motec when they delete the AFM.

They were able to control the double vanos on the Euro 3.2L OBDII M3 and took the output of the S50B32 up from 321 HP to 400 HP with full exhaust, cams, airbox and Motec.

Though you already mentioned them, the Motec M800 has already been tuned for the S52 and there is a shop in Belgium that says they have worked with Motec to devise a program for the S54. I personally thing this is the way to go (over the Tec3).

-Prince

Originally posted by MPILOT
Software is done and the kit will be installed and on the Dyno next week. I will release all my test results from pump gas up to 112 leaded gas.

How does 8,800 RPM sound like with 112 octane.


I dont know about that. While a 8800 rpm/redline sounds nice, I dont think its even safe. The PTG M3 GT cars make about 420hp at 8200rpm but has life averaging 40hrs.

The PTG team also has a lot more restrictions on car parts. They can't use TI rods, springs, retainers, etc. And the cams they use are probably crazy too. But when you don't limit yourself by things like the PTG series rules, you can make your engine more powerful, or more reliable.

-Prince

MPilot, which intake are you testing??

The motec m800 with double vanos option is the only way to go...anything else and you're wasting your time. A cheap ecu is more expensive in the long run.

MPilot,

Maybe I'm missing something here...

How does 291 whp (exhaust/UDP/plugs) from 271 whp (stock) equal a 29 whp gain?

I'm surprised that BMW left so much room for improvement with the E46 M3 exhaust. The SS full exhaust setup (headers/resonator/catback) for the E36 M3 3.2L euro exhaust shows hardly any gains over the stock exhaust system.

If anything, the SS euro header sacrifices low- to mid-range torque for a 3-5 HP (if that) gain at the very top of the RPM range.

Originally posted by Jet
The motec m800 with double vanos option is the only way to go...anything else and you're wasting your time. A cheap ecu is more expensive in the long run.

PTG uses Motec. Need really need more of a reason to run that over Tec3 or standard?

-Prince

Originally posted by Big Lun
MPilot,

Maybe I'm missing something here...

How does 291 whp (exhaust/UDP/plugs) from 271 whp (stock) equal a 29 whp gain?

I'm surprised that BMW left so much room for improvement with the E46 M3 exhaust. The SS full exhaust setup (headers/resonator/catback) for the E36 M3 3.2L euro exhaust shows hardly any gains over the stock exhaust system.

If anything, the SS euro header sacrifices low- to mid-range torque for a 3-5 HP (if that) gain at the very top of the RPM range.

You have to realize what BMW did with the US E46 M3 model. To allow the cats to heat up quicker to pass Cali emissions the cats are built into the header. It's beyond very restrictive. This is very different from the E36 which did not have this set up. Others have reported similar gains.

8800 RPM? Good thing that S54 engines are so cheap now :) We only add 250 rpm to redline and thats with adding lots of extra fuel at the top end for safety. But I am sure they know what they are doing.

Jeff
Eurobahn
818-381-6335

Originally posted by Big Lun
MPilot,

Maybe I'm missing something here...

How does 291 whp (exhaust/UDP/plugs) from 271 whp (stock) equal a 29 whp gain?

I'm surprised that BMW left so much room for improvement with the E46 M3 exhaust. The SS full exhaust setup (headers/resonator/catback) for the E36 M3 3.2L euro exhaust shows hardly any gains over the stock exhaust system.

If anything, the SS euro header sacrifices low- to mid-range torque for a 3-5 HP (if that) gain at the very top of the RPM range.


:bash:

Hit the nail on the head with that one. It boggles my mind, too!

Originally posted by mpowerme
You have to realize what BMW did with the US E46 M3 model. To allow the cats to heat up quicker to pass Cali emissions the cats are built into the header. It's beyond very restrictive. This is very different from the E36 which did not have this set up. Others have reported similar gains.

YUP!
If positioning the cats further down the exhaust system frees up 10 more HP, then i believe removing them will free up 20 HP.

Originally posted by mpowerme
You have to realize what BMW did with the US E46 M3 model. To allow the cats to heat up quicker to pass Cali emissions the cats are built into the header. It's beyond very restrictive. This is very different from the E36 which did not have this set up. Others have reported similar gains.

Understood. But MPilot had a 'baseline' pull of 271 rwhp and then pulled 291 rwhp with the full SS/MK exhaust setup, plugs and UDP. That's a 20 rwhp gain, not 29 rwhp.

Did anyone think that it might have been a mis-typing...considering the 9 and the 0 are next to each other? Or perhaps it's not peak HP gains? MPILOT?

-Prince

I remember him saying he gained 24HP at low rpm.
People have to be specific when reporting power gains on dynos. Peak HP gain is very different than max HP gains.

Originally posted by JaWeb
I remember him saying he gained 24HP at low rpm.
People have to be specific when reporting power gains on dynos. Peak HP gain is very different than max HP gains.

Ja, I believe you are right...:alright

Sorry guys, I've been away for a while.

The difference between the max WHP values is 20 WHP at around 7,500 RPM while the maximum gain was 29 at 7,900 RPM.

Thats true I'm currently not tied down by regulations and restrictions so I can modify purely for performance, which is my current objective.

The 8,800 RPM will be alot of fun on the track but should only be used with minimum 100 AKI. Its not for your daily commute however.....8,800 RPM on 6th gives a theoretical top speed of 223MPH, however I think with the 400HP I'm expecting the max the revs will reach in 6th would be around 7,500 RPM, good for around 190 MPH .:) Then with the 3.91 the max theoretical top speed would be 205 MPH at 8,800 RPM.

The Motec is the way to go, we'll see after the cams...

Are you going with Schrick or Turner cams? *or custom*

-Prince

custom cams, its not your typical 272 or 282...

has anyone tested cams with more than 288 duration on the M3?

Wonder if the loss down low can be corrected with the software.

MPilot: How are you going to deal with the smog problem if you use Motec? I heard a lot of ups about Motec, but not for street use, unless you have two wiring harness and ECU running in your car. Most importantly, Motec doesn't support OBD-II. I don't really think it is worth to pay 9K-12K for the motec and gain of only 40-50hp. I guess if your car is purely racing, then it might worth the gain of every single hp.

There are several race teams in Europe that control the double vanos with the Motec. Its not for street purposes and is pushing more into full race preparation.
Not required immediately, but its on my list after I finish the cams and diff.

Originally posted by Bimmer96
MPilot: ...Most importantly, Motec doesn't support OBD-II...

:confused:

Motec is a REPLACEMENT for the onboard computers. So, the above statement doesn't make any sense. Personally, I think the cost is worth the versitility of being able to tune your car for power of efficency, etc...

-Prince

I don't think if the E46 without OBD-II can pass the smog check. this is the reason why i stated Motec doesn't support OBD-II. I am not sure whether MPilot is using his car for fully racing application or part-time racer. I know several people using Motec on their E36 Euro engine where they bump up to 400hp, but those car are for racing only.

Prince: I agree with you, read my last sentence of my previous reply.

:dunno

Bimmer96, what compression ratio are you running on your euro 3.2?

Hey Chris, I am staying 11.3. I was going to get 11.5-11.7, but too scare of the shitty gas here in the CA. Anyway, thanks for your suggestion about the Motec, I called them, but the whole project cost a lot for my car. Let me know how your's doing after the summer.

I just installed my new software and intake.

The car is very responsive, almost scary. Redline is at 8,800 RPM, and let me tell you that you have never heard the S54 like this before.

From 3,000 RPM you feel the intake start picking up and by 4000 the growl starts, then once you pass 5,500 RPM all hell brakes loose and you find yourself over 8,500 RPM looking for the next gear.

The headers and race pipe changed the car into a beast, now with the new intake and ECU its that beast on a catapult that never ends.

I will put 300 miles on the weekend and Dyno on Monday....stay tuned for results!!!

someone please kill this thread, it's been at the top for a very long time! ;0

MPILOT,

I don't know if it's on here or not, so I apologize if I am repeating a previously asked question.

Could you please put up a list of the current modifications your M3 has that produced an 8,800 RPM redline?

If your redline is 8,800, I can't even imagine what your HP and Torque outputs must be at this point.

Thanks!

Chris

I will release all the details soon

KA BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Careful bro.

ever?

Originally posted by Greg W / Oregon
ever?

Not even close! The thread about the guy in the Corvette C5 that started to call a Honda Civic rice and said his car was SHlT and would get smoked by his vette was the longest. The thing is the guy in the Civic was interested in C5's etc. and the guy in the Vette just started cutting up his SHlT for no reason.

They ACTUALLY hooked up and raced, and the Civic Spanked him TWICE! HAHAHAHAHA

Everyone from every message board on earth signed on and laughed the Vette guy right off the board

The thread got so out of hand, it was disabled by the moderators. Not closed, but DISABLED! HAHAHA

Glad to hear the installation went well MPILOT. Cant wait to hear about the gains on the dyno.
I feel that an intake is the solution to the S54s low torque numbers. :clap:

MPILOT: You need to slow down on the street! You know what I mean. Wait enough so we can atleast test the new mods.

What's your opinion on the GruppeM intake you have. Worth the money?

MCJ: It looks nice and it is well designed but I never got to test it on the dyno just by itself, so I don't know what the gains were. I will put the car on the dyno later this month to test every mod I have on my car.

Mine showed a 8.1rwhp gain.

Originally posted by tec548
Mine showed a 8.1rwhp gain.

Could you PLEASE post the dyno graph. I know you've mentioned that you got 8.1 rwhp before. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I'd like to see the graph (but you've never posted it).

You posted a SUPER SMALL one before, but no one could read it, which rendered it useless.

Thanks,
KJ

The resolution that it is in is too high to post on the forum. I have tried to scan at lower resolution and the barely ledgeable graph is what was the result. I will email it to you if you like.

I am having a DJ 248 installed at my shop this week, so I will have more dynos to post. This will include a dyno with my new fan delete and Superchip software... seperate runs...

Originally posted by tec548
The resolution that it is in is too high to post on the forum. I have tried to scan at lower resolution and the barely ledgeable graph is what was the result. I will email it to you if you like.

I am having a DJ 248 installed at my shop this week, so I will have more dynos to post. This will include a dyno with my new fan delete and Superchip software... seperate runs...

Check your Private Messages! I sent you a message with the e-mail to send it to.

Thanks,
KJ

Here are the graphs from tec548, they're a little hard to read, but it's better than nothing. Here's the rundown tec548 gave me in his e-mail:

"These show a 5.5rwhp gain from the highest to the highest (between runs). A 5.9 rwhp gain averaged. A 8.2 rwhp gain from the lowest to the highest.

There was a 10 degree temperature difference between the two dyno runs. Humidity and pressure were very close to the same on both days. Same fuel, same station, diffenent tanks obviously (93 Shell).

I will be able to do better testing once my dyno is in. I do plan on posting the results of
everything that I do.

The last dyno sheet is not very clear on the graph, but the numbers are ledgeable."

Thanks go to tec548 for the information.

- KJ

Eisenmann and Supersprint:
http://members.roadfly.com/kj-typer/e46 M3 pull_Eis_SS resized.jpg

GruppeM:
http://members.roadfly.com/kj-typer/e46 M3 gpm resized.jpg

Dyno? or dy no?

The car is running fine. I am waiting for the dyno as soon as I get back. Can't wait for the results with 91 vs 100 vs 110 AKI.

What does AKI stand for?

Thanks...

-Prince

American Knock Index which is calculated by (R + M) / 2

R: Research Octane Number
M: Motor Octane Number

The Euro method uses only the R value, thats why 95 RON (EURO) is equivalent to 91 AKI (US).

i thought it was anti-knock index :dunno

yes you're right its Anti-Knock index

Stock car with 2 mods...

Evosport RG8s (wheels)
Miesteshcaft Ti exhaust
and 97 octane gas.

MPilot were your baseline runs done with the RG-Rs? I would guess alot of dyno runs floating around are done on non-stock wheels. Wheels/tires that are about 5lbs lighter than stock will show a 5hp gain I would think.

You have done some good work and I look forward to seeing your 100 octane runs.
http://members.roadfly.com/chuckd/stock vs. 97oct_RG8_Exhaust.JPG

MPilot, did you get your chip from Hiop?

no I don't know of anyone running a Hiop on a US M3.

I have a new software that is completing testing on the streets, its from a race tuner.

Would be neat to see dynos with octane 92 or 93.

I heard that the computer needs to adapt to higher octane fuels. Is that true, or does the car perform better instantly?

The ECU need time to adapt. For example our software requires about 5 to 6 drive cycles of 4 or 5 miles each to completely adapt. It is not possible for the computer to know everything instantly. Too many variables.

Jeff
Eurobahn
818-381-6335

ChuckD you got some good numbers.

So we can assume about 5 WHP from the muffler and another 5 from the lighter wheels, so the final 8 WHP came from the 97 AKI. Thats over 1 WHP/AKI.

Did you run the car on the Dyno with both 91 and 97 after adaptation?

My stock 270.8 run was with the Hartge classics 19" heavy wheels and my 291 WHP run was with the RG-Rs, which are almost 28 lb lighter.
whats funny is my car was dyno'd right before the Header install with the RG-Rs and Mk muffler and showed 270.5 WHP, this was due to a very dirty filter. Right after cleaning the filter, the power with the MK muffler went up to 273.5 WHP. With the hartge wheels and Mk it was 273.3 WHP, so I'm not sure with the lighter RG-Rs and a S.S. X-pipe I gained 0.2 WHP at the peak, but about 7 or 8 WHP gain around 4,000 RPM.

There is no way to really know without testing the wheels and or the muffler induvidually. Generally you can feel the difference with lightweight wheels so it seems that there would be at least some drivetrain loss freed up by them. Don't know.

These two particular plots where taken a few months apart actually. I did do some more recent back to back testing with the car the way it currently is and a 6 octane increase shows a legitamate 8-10 RWHP across the power band with the stock ECU.

Going from 91 the car learns the gas is there it seems almost immediatly. By 1/4 tank you can feel it... The most recent run at almost 295 was taking only after half a tank and the car feels like it may have loosened up even more since then.

The plots I have show the wheels and exhaust contibuting exactly the same power increase as the gas from 3K up to about 7K. Then from 7K up to 8K the wheel/exhaust plots show more gain. Not sure why you did not notice the same. The difference very well could be the difference in 1 octane too. If you notice my 96 run is alot choppier than the 97 run. And the 97 run still gets alittle choppy up at the very top.

What someone needs to do is monitor the knock sensor while testing varoius octane levels so we know where the car is not seeing anymore gains. Temperature and other variables will play into this.. but it would be nice to know where the general sweet spot is.


Are your rotational diameters roughly the same between your baseline and most recent runs with the RG-Rs? Possibilty a difference there could throw off your numbers?

Stock = blue plot
Red = stock on 96 octane
Green = RG8s/Meistershaft/97 octane

http://members.roadfly.com/chuckd/stock vs. 96 vs. 97_RG8_Exhaust.JPG

yes there was a slight increase in my rotational diameter going up from 275/30/19 to 285/30/19, but thats only been increased by 6mm. The RG-R 19x10 weigh in at 22 lb, where the Hartge classics are 30.8 lb for the rear 19x9.5.
I know it makes sense to see an increase of power on the dyno. I was hoping to gain atleast 5-7 whp with the 18.6 lb of unsprung weight dropped of the rears.

Thanks for dyno charts, I will post 91 v 100 v 110 leaded next week. So you think 1/4-1/2 tank is enough for the ECU to adjust.

I hope the knocking will be eliminated at the 100 level. The 110 might show a higher gain ratio due to the leaded fuel.

Originally posted by MPILOT
So you think 1/4-1/2 tank is enough for the ECU to adjust.

Oh yeah... I ran a 285 on a Tuesday afternoon, disconnected the battery and then filled up with 97 right after the dyno session. The next day I burned about half a tank driving to work... then back to Evosport and pulled the 294.8 run.

I may have picked up some more power since... but most if not all of the gain with the gas was picked up within a 1/4 to 1/2 a tank... maybe sooner.

Not sure if disconnecting the battery is necessary but I did it before each day and then drove the same amount of miles to be sure each was effected by a similar amount adaption.

Looking forward to seeing how additive the gas is with your mods!

Originally posted by MPILOT
yes there was a slight increase in my rotational diameter going up from 275/30/19 to 285/30/19, but thats only been increased by 6mm.

Hmm. Wouldn't going from 275 to 285 increase rotational inertia of the wheels meaning a lower dyno run (i.e. more of the engine's power is used to accelerate the wheels, reducing the power available to accelerate the dyno)?

Originally posted by M3Fella
Hmm. Wouldn't going from 275 to 285 increase rotational inertia of the wheels meaning a lower dyno run (i.e. more of the engine's power is used to accelerate the wheels, reducing the power available to accelerate the dyno)?


If we are talking about a Dynojet inertia dyno then neither the diameter of the tires nor the rotational mass of any of the parts on the car should affect the rwhp number.

The reason for this is that a Dynojet measures the rotational energy put into the rolling drum per unit time at increments of RPM through the rev range. The rolling drum has no knowledge of your car's tire size or gearing. The drum only knows how fast it's being accelerated and the corresponding engine RPM at each increment through the rev range on a pull.

Bottom line - an inertia dyno measures horsepower, and then the dyno software backs out the torque curve via the RPM curve (remember the relationship between torque and HP).

Regarding rotational inertia of wheels, tires etc... If the drum is big enough and heavy enough then its rotational inertia will be hundreds of times greater than that of all the rotating parts on the car. Thus saving a bit of rotational inertia in the wheel/tires is completly "lost in the noise" relative to the rotational inertia of the drum. This is by design, and is also why the bigger Dynojet drums are more accurate than the smaller models.

I hope this makes sense. It's not tough to understand in retrospect, but I will admit that I wondered about all this for quite some time. Also, some folks who really should have known how this works were unable to explain it to me :az:

I plan to do a website writeup on this subject with some pictures and equations...

HTH,

Gustave

Thank you for the input.

You obviously know more than I on these subjects, I would like to think that most of my measued power was actual power output and not decreases in drivetrain loss. But I will admit that I am sceptical.

The reason I say this is because if you look back at my dyno plots there is a huge difference between between (red)a stock run on 96 octane and the (green) run which was on 97 octane, lighter wheels/tires, and a Meistershaft Ti exahust.

I admit there are alot of variables between the two runs to really gauge which varible is making the huge difference. But if it is not the wheels/tires... then it most likely is the exhaust. And if that is true. Then the car should be the Eisenhouse poster car.

You have me tempted to go and put stock wheels back on and redyno.. but I probably won't. (1) I don't have them, and (2) I would need to buy spacers just for the test.

You don't think the lighter wheels allow the engine to spool up faster and build up more momentum?


http://members.roadfly.com/chuckd/stock%20vs.%2096%20vs.%2097_RG8_Exhaust.JPG

Originally posted by ChuckD
Thank you for the input.

You obviously know more than I on these subjects, I would like to think that most of my measued power was actual power output and not decreases in drivetrain loss. But I will admit that I am sceptical.

The reason I say this is because if you look back at my dyno plots there is a huge difference between between (red)a stock run on 96 octane and the (green) run which was on 97 octane, lighter wheels/tires, and a Meistershaft Ti exahust.




Hi Chuck,

Firstly, I don't claim to be any type of expert on dyno'ing cars or anything. Sure, I've dyno'd my cars, but nearly as much as some other folks have. The only thing I really have done is to sit down to try and figure out how an inertia dyno produces rwhp and torque curves.

The first time I dyno'd a car on a Dynojet I asked whether the wheel diameter and gearing information had to be entered into the dyno software before the run. It seemed logical that it would since that would be the only way that dyno could correlate a force on the drum (causing it to accelerate) to a torque at the crankshaft. But I was told that the dyno software did not this info. as it "figured it out on its own" (or words to that effect). Well that was not a sufficient answer so I vowed to one day sit down with paper, pencil and physics text book to figure it out.

The first few times I tried to figure it out I failed. I always got stuck at the tire to drum interface. I could see how the dyno run could be used to determine the force on the drum surface, and that this force was provided by the tire contact patch. But how to get from there to the crankshaft with no knowledge of tire size or gearing?

Then I remembered that the dyno also measures