Hi all, just got my '97 M3 on the road after new tires since I purchased it last week. Considerably more fun to drive than my E46 328Ci ever was with mods. I've run it a bit to find out what it's got, and here is how it went. I have the Dinan suspension, Dinan CAI, and Stage II software, otherwise stock.

Black Late model C5 Vette was roasting down fast lane on interstate as I was merging under hard acceleration. I caught up to him at around 80mph then he saw me. I could tell he floored it since there was significant puffs of black smoke once he downshifted. I stayed with him, neither of us pulled up to 140mph. He had some nice exhaust and what appeared to be some HRE wheels (speculating on the wheels as they looked like the set I've seen on a similar car in town).

Lined up against my buddies VR6 with many mods including a new 6-speed tranny out of a GLI, a Quaife diff, big bore throttle body, intake, exhaust, short shifter and 75 shot of NX. His start was a little slow, but I was still 3-4 carlengths ahead after the first 1/8 and through to 120mph. Also, I missed 3rd gear. Getting my TME's this week, X-brace and short shifter. Too used to the SSK in my 328 I guess.

Did 3rd gear roll-ons with a modified VR6 with intake, exhaust, etc. and pulled 2-3 carlengths by the time we hit 130mph.

For the whiners, this was late at night on desolate roads.

I expected more the the VR6 with nitrous, but it just doesn't have it. I've been with him on the Dyno too, and it's putting down 238 hp at the wheels, and 245 Tq. I'll be dynoing the M3 next weekend, as other M3 owners have stated that my motor feels very, very strong.

There is a school of thought on this board that roll-on races are BS, but I feel that it is a more solid representation of the cars power. A standing drag style start exploits the traction and driver advantages of specific cars/drivers. I use roll-on races to more accurately guage the actual power differences between cars, usually from 40-50 mph in 3rd gear. This is the gear used on Dyno's for peak power readings IIRC. This way, I can determine which car is faster, and not just which car has better tires/traction/driver, etc.

Josh

See you MN guys at the track!:devillook

Nice runs. And I respect your opinion on roll on runs, I just don't agree with it- and that's ok, too.

There are so many factors, like gearing, that will always favor one car over another, especially totally different cars, let alone almost identical ones.

If you really want a true measurement of power and such, go to the Drag Strip, and get a look at your timeslip. The ET will address your ability to launch and traction, etc. The trap speeds will be an accurate measure of your car's power and such.

Originally posted by joshE46
Hi all, just got my '97 M3 on the road after new tires since I purchased it last week. Considerably more fun to drive than my E46 328Ci ever was with mods. I've run it a bit to find out what it's got, and here is how it went. I have the Dinan suspension, Dinan CAI, and Stage II software, otherwise stock.

Black Late model C5 Vette was roasting down fast lane on interstate as I was merging under hard acceleration. I caught up to him at around 80mph then he saw me. I could tell he floored it since there was significant puffs of black smoke once he downshifted. I stayed with him, neither of us pulled up to 140mph. He had some nice exhaust and what appeared to be some HRE wheels (speculating on the wheels as they looked like the set I've seen on a similar car in town).

Lined up against my buddies VR6 with many mods including a new 6-speed tranny out of a GLI, a Quaife diff, big bore throttle body, intake, exhaust, short shifter and 75 shot of NX. His start was a little slow, but I was still 3-4 carlengths ahead after the first 1/8 and through to 120mph. Also, I missed 3rd gear. Getting my TME's this week, X-brace and short shifter. Too used to the SSK in my 328 I guess.

Did 3rd gear roll-ons with a modified VR6 with intake, exhaust, etc. and pulled 2-3 carlengths by the time we hit 130mph.

For the whiners, this was late at night on desolate roads.

I expected more the the VR6 with nitrous, but it just doesn't have it. I've been with him on the Dyno too, and it's putting down 238 hp at the wheels, and 245 Tq. I'll be dynoing the M3 next weekend, as other M3 owners have stated that my motor feels very, very strong.

There is a school of thought on this board that roll-on races are BS, but I feel that it is a more solid representation of the cars power. A standing drag style start exploits the traction and driver advantages of specific cars/drivers. I use roll-on races to more accurately guage the actual power differences between cars, usually from 40-50 mph in 3rd gear. This is the gear used on Dyno's for peak power readings IIRC. This way, I can determine which car is faster, and not just which car has better tires/traction/driver, etc.

Josh

See you MN guys at the track!:devillook

Um... if the C5 was on it, it's obvious he didn't downshift, since bone stock the car traps 105-107, your car with your mods if your lucky will trap 102, so your gonna get walked. If he downshifted

Next what year is your friends vr6 with nitrous? cause #1 they didn't make big bore throttle bodies for any thing other then obd1. Also the new 6speed doesn't bolt up to an older vr6, with out some nice modding custom type shit.
Also how are u gonna say you pulled harder on a vr6 with a 75shot then a vr6 with intake and exhaust etc???
Same thing a vr6 with 230whp like you said is gonna trap 105-107mph and once again walk you. Probably wasn't spraying to make you feel better.
Cause my car allmotor put down 180whp and i was trapping 99.5 and woulda gave you a run for your money.

I've seen stock C5's trap at 109-110 mph, Tim... so you make a good point...

97 Dinan M3 should be trapping at least in the 105-108 range. So, that would be an equal battle. Hence, why I think a C5 car could take an e46 m3...stronger legs....I don't believe the e46 m3 is trapping at those speeds.

P.S. -- I'm assuming Dinan's normal kit, around 300 rwhp.

James he said "I have the Dinan suspension, Dinan CAI, and Stage II software, otherwise stock"

60 hp from those mods???

Ahh, sorry..... I didn't read his post carefully enough :D ... I skimmed over it, and in my defense, the TOPIC of this post states this:

97 Dinan M3

I don't know many people stating they have a Dinan M3 if it is not supercharged. That's like a person saying they have an AA M3 with AA's exhaust and s/w.

So, I concur with everyone then -- I would think his 97 DINAN M3 could trap no higher than 102 or 103, and that's stretching it. The CAI and s/w should MAYBE get him in the neighborhood of 220-225 rwhp. That's being pretty optimistic as well....actually, very optimistic.

Then again, who knows ... Karl and my mechanic have told me I have an extremely, extremely strong engine. I should not be putting down the numbers I have at my current settings. I mean, I had to pay a good chunk of money to put Karl's mind at ease that my readings were not a fluke....

I think similarly with you Dave, you have a REALLY strong engine.

So, maybe this guy has a really, really strong engine and other people have a REALLY poor engine... :dunno

P.S. -- 4th gear is better for dyno runs ... not the third gear pulls

Besides, being 3-4 CL's ahead of a person --- that's HUGE!!!!!

Originally posted by VWSport.Com
Um... if the C5 was on it, it's obvious he didn't downshift, since bone stock the car traps 105-107, your car with your mods if your lucky will trap 102, so your gonna get walked. If he downshifted

Next what year is your friends vr6 with nitrous? cause #1 they didn't make big bore throttle bodies for any thing other then obd1. Also the new 6speed doesn't bolt up to an older vr6, with out some nice modding custom type shit.
Also how are u gonna say you pulled harder on a vr6 with a 75shot then a vr6 with intake and exhaust etc???
Same thing a vr6 with 230whp like you said is gonna trap 105-107mph and once again walk you. Probably wasn't spraying to make you feel better.
Cause my car allmotor put down 180whp and i was trapping 99.5 and woulda gave you a run for your money.

I'm assuming the C5 downshifted due to an extreme amount of black smoke puffs once he canned it, and the significantly higher exhaust note as he was directly in front of me. Maybe it was an automatic. I downshifted also to 3rd. Either that, or that car can really put it to the ground at 80mph in top gear, which I doubt. I owned a modified C4, and it didn't do that on a roll, neither has any of the C5's I've driven. Someone once said the E36 M3 was around the quickest car accelerating in top gear. Regardless, I was never in 5th anyway.

As for the Jetta, it's a '00 VR6 with the ABD throttle body and intake, and a '02 GLI 6-speed with Quaife, using an Audi clutch. If you don't think it'll fit, you need to bone up on your VW 'expertise' there fella. Also, I know he was spraying because he's one of my best friends and we talked about it afterwards. He and I are looking forward to a race at the dragstrip to do this under more controlled conditions, etc. Honestly, the non nitrous VR6 seemed to hang on just about the same, but it was in a Golf, versus the NOS car as a Jetta. Maybe there is some weight differences there. It was hard to tell, they were both behind me!!

Silverstreak, you got a bad-ass car fella, and I appreciate your opinion as well on the roll on vs. drag thing. For me, sometimes a roll-on shows the cars true potential and all cars are not created equal, but if someone thinks it's faster, with whatever gearing it may have, I'll find out! I'm not much of a drag racer, so most of the races I've been in have been a result of opportunity, which is rarely at a set of street lights without traffic.

As for drag racing my car, I look forward to getting it on a track, but I have trouble with wheel-hop in the M3. Any suggestions on launching techniques? I usually launch with the car at 2200-2500 rpms to keep the wheel hop from getting out of control. It's a delicate dance between traction and getting into the powerband. Any suggestions?

Josh

As for the suggestion of the strong engine, I have a close BMW friend that has a '97 M3/4 that is almost fully race prepped. His car has the Dinan stage IV software, with euro HFM, big bore throttle body, fan elimination, interior removed with Sparco competition once piece seats, and his A/C system removed, along with SSR competition wheels. He said my car felt faster than his, and was very impressed with it's power. That's quite a statement from someone that competes regularly in his car, and does it on a track seriously. When I lauched my car with him in it, his baseball cap flew into the back seat, and all he said was HOLY SHIT this thing moves. Another friend with lots of goodies on a '95 M3 was also very impressed and stated that it felt very strong. That's all I have for now, mostly speculation, but it'll be on the dyno shortly.

Josh

PS, I was surprised at beating the NOS Jetta, I actually thought I would lose. Could be the driving, could be a lot of things. But, we lined up and there was no question the race was decisive.

Josh,

Check out the Launch Tips thread parked at the top of the Track Forum here, it's gotten to 2 pages now, but lots of good info in it about launching BMWs at the strip.

Trap speeds under a controlled environment with accurate measuring equipment will be more "scientific" in your quest for comparison knowledge.

I've blown launches (wheelspin galore) and actually ended up with my highest trap speeds ever that way. Also, friction/traction- as it pertains to your specific tires, will play a factor in your traps.

When my car was stock, I ran a 13.89 at 99.5 mph on OEM tires, and then just mounted up my drag radials, no other mods, and ripped off a 13.65 at 99.1 mph.

My best trap so far with all my mods is 115.6 mph, but I'm sure if I ran on my OEM tires (my ET's would likely take a hit and could even end up in the low low 12's) my traps would be over 116 mph, and maybe even get close to 117 mph...

Traps, measured at the track, are a much more accurate measure of power-to-weight ratio, than running from a roll against a guy with X car and Y mods, at some-such rpm in whatever gear and such-and-such mph, on whichever road, etc... ;) You see what I'm getting at, I'm sure... :D

I do, and appreciate the info. I'll get a chance to see what it's really made of at the Import Drags in WI in a few weeks. I just put new tires on yesterday, and the two VW races were last night on those tires, Khumho MX's. I had what was left of some MXX3's prior to that, but never launched it. I did once, sort of, and they seemed to be more linear and there was no hop. I've had a lot of cars but never had a wheel-hop problem so it's a whole new issue to deal with. I tried a dozen launches yesterday afternoon out in the country on a quiet stretch of road, and there was no good rpm to launch. Any higher than 3k and it felt like I was going to rip out the rear subframe or RTAB's and whatever else, it was violent. Not interested in continuing to do that! I'll check out that thread on launching techniques...

Josh

Yeah, independent rear suspension cars can wheel-hop, and if it's cold out there, that effects traction, too.

Don't ever just rev it up and drop the clutch, the bad vibes from too much wheel-hop can take it's toll over time.

You gotta regulate the power to the ground using the clutch. If you want a good launch, gotta hate your clutch. But think of it this way, the clutch was made to wear out (like brake pads)... better it takes the abuse than something more costly...

A 2000 Jetta is a mk4, ad like Tim said there is no larger throttle body. ABD sells an intake pipe that connects the throttle body to the MAf but that thing does nothing. Also the new 6 speed will fit but it doesn't use an Audi clutch, you also hav to swap in the 6 speed axle's as well as the flywheel. A friend and another local vortexer has the 6 speed on his supercharged 2000 GTI VR6. With that said tell your friend to check his bottle pressure cause it isn't filled, if he really sprayed and there was nitrous in the cylinder then he has severe motor problems cause a Jetta with a 75 shot is going to be a quick car.
Mike

Silverstreak, yeah, I gotta 'relearn' to modulate the clutch. I used to be able to launch my SVO really well that way, but have since not 'dragged' any of my manual cars, and had several automatic GM V8's (Formulas, Corvette, Z28 LT1). My Esprit couldn't be launched without facing a $6K clutch repair bill, so that pretty much ended my practice. I'll get it nailed down.

VWMike - I called him, and he casually refers to it as a big bore throttle body, but it's actually just a big bore pipe to the throttle body that is aluminum, versus the shitty plastic one it comes with. This is all from ABD. He confirmed that noone makes an actual big bore throttle body housing, etc. He got the axles and all the ancilliary bits with the transmission, however, ne needed a flywheel and clutch. I know he got an OEM clutch (which I thought was an audi part) but either way sent it out to Clutch Masters in CA to have it massaged since he intends to have Matrix add a turbo next winter. The flywheel wasn't cheap, and not many in the country yet as the car is so new, flywheels aren't exactly in demand. Can that thing even spray without appropriate pressure? I never considered that, I'll ask him if the thing is even filled. It should be, I know he filled it and hasn't used it much. In fact, it was just hooked up again on Sunday, as it was removed to redo the interior and install a roll cage. I know he's had some issues with an oxygen sensor, and if the fault code trips, he loses power, presumably the ECM holds back output. We had it reset last week at SCI in Minneapolis (who did the 6-speed install, UO pulleys, etc) and I should ask him if it's on. He didn't say anything about it, and if he felt something was wrong, he'd probably let me know, as he was probably a little upset. He initially stated that he felt the M3 would be quicker than the Jetta with Nitrous, then once he had it hooked up again, changed his mind, so we ran them to put the issue to rest. I'll ask him if anything seemed amiss with his ride, but he made no attempts to excuse the loss.

The VR6 Golf was owned by Dusty, frequents the Vortex, has a green car with Reiger lip, exhaust, wheels, intake, and I don't know what else. The Jetta is Malecs, the one with 20"s and is pretty notorious. Malec gave Dusty a hard time, and he concurred he didn't stand a chance, but went for it, he wasn't scared. :)

Peace,
Josh

for you whiners



:biglaughb

Originally posted by joshE46
I'm assuming the C5 downshifted due to an extreme amount of black smoke puffs once he canned it, and the significantly higher exhaust note as he was directly in front of me. Maybe it was an automatic. I downshifted also to 3rd. Either that, or that car can really put it to the ground at 80mph in top gear, which I doubt. I owned a modified C4, and it didn't do that on a roll, neither has any of the C5's I've driven. Someone once said the E36 M3 was around the quickest car accelerating in top gear. Regardless, I was never in 5th anyway.


Josh


Ehhh, far be it from me, but i assure you he wasnt racing full on. Ive raced at least 1/2 dozen E36 M3s, watched them race Vettes, watched them at the track, et. al. From a dead dig, they do well considering the 100+ hp deficite. From a roll, its not even fun. Instant pulling. From 60 to 130, roughly 4 lenghts on a stock vehicle. Ive said it a million times before, i love M cars, love to drive 'em, and one day when i get old i probably will drive one. But LS1's are like very much at home on the highway. Not saying it didnt happen, ive seen Z06s run 17 sec 1/4 mi. times, so i wouldnt be suprised if you tore him out of his frame, but just saying its not a very safe bet for an naturally aspirated E36 to take on an LS1. Again, very phat car....drive it like a stolen rental. Peace. :cool:

I hear you, and like I said, it's hard to say exactly what he was doing up there, but since we hit 140mph, I can assure you he wasn't lolligagging and was on it pretty damn hard. I've toyed with cars before and just barely kept ahead of them to tease them, and for all I know, he had some 700hp stroker blown Doug Rippie motor in it and was laughing at me the whole way.:dunno

I've personally had four TPI/LT1 GM's, so I'm well aware of how a 5.7L can get down the road. I've driven several LS1's, and think they are fine. Definitely a different beast than the L98's and LT1's I've had in the past. Looks like you have quite a ride there yourself, drive it like you stole it! :redspot

Josh

:bs: Gotta call you on those kills. Sorry.. you'd have gotten smoked by the Vette and by the modded VW on the hose.