This is from a local forum. This "shop" is building a "customer" a cage. Its a real "I am a shop" type shit. Anyway, this kid is going to be drifting this car competitively. The "shop" built this cage...

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2852-1/DSC01009.JPG

Hardly any penetration on any of the welds - contamination throughout... horrible oxidization and contamination on the floor pans...

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2880-1/DSC01001.JPG

http://www.theoryinpracticeengineering.com/gallery/d/2884-1/DSC01003.JPG

I have seen enough cage work to know that this is unsafe and would more than likely not pass any inspection.

Owner says there are no door bars, and that x-bracing is not extending outward at all...

Ya get what ya pay for...


And ignorance equates to profit to most companies/people...

Yep. Builder says the contamination is rust and will come off with a wire wheel. Yes, it will, but the weld is contaminated none the less lol. Its still deeper than the wire wheel will reach!

Yep. Builder says the contamination is rust and will come off with a wire wheel. Yes, it will, but the weld is contaminated none the less lol. Its still deeper than the wire wheel will reach!


So the ass didnt clean it off before he welded..


:confused

Didn't clean it and or didn't use enough/correct shield gas.

Volk could probably tell us more. I've welded stainless and mild and it never turned orange... and that bead around everything has like maybe 1/5 penetration as it does width...

Owner says there are no door bars, and that x-bracing is not extending outward at all...

Why would you want that bracing to extend outward?

Those welds are not pretty, but I've seen worse pass tech.

Oh god that thing is scary.

Definitely not a perfect cage-up, but I'd definitely feel safer with that than no cage at all.

Why would you want that bracing to extend outward?

Those welds are not pretty, but I've seen worse pass tech.

When you have no door bars and you are in a side impact collision you want a crumple zone. Read up on it. Often referred to as "NASCAR" bars.

My friend had a cage like that in his Z06 and he shattered his pelvis being in a side impact collision with all proper safety gear.

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/february05/nasa/

Its criticized but a TON of people feel that the nascar bars allow crumple versus a rigid hit and tweaking those bars right into you

When you have no door bars and you are in a side impact collision you want a crumple zone. Read up on it. Often referred to as "NASCAR" bars.

My friend had a cage like that in his Z06 and he shattered his pelvis being in a side impact collision with all proper safety gear.


Ouch...thats a hard one to heal....long time....

Ouch...thats a hard one to heal....long time....

Yeah - thing is, it was all up to then-standard - all motor Z06 all safety equipment... everything.

the door and the frame up to the point of the X is the crumple zone.

nascar bars are heavy and definately not the best design. A good X is always better. If you want absorbtion, use an X and energy absorbing material between the door skin and the X.

the door and the frame up to the point of the X is the crumple zone.

nascar bars are heavy and definately not the best design. A good X is always better. If you want absorbtion, use an X and energy absorbing material between the door skin and the X.

I am sure there is always a better alternative but on a street/track car with a weld in cage (stupid) you should give yourself room or you will be kissing tubes.

When you have no door bars and you are in a side impact collision you want a crumple zone. Read up on it. Often referred to as "NASCAR" bars.

My friend had a cage like that in his Z06 and he shattered his pelvis being in a side impact collision with all proper safety gear.

http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/february05/nasa/

Its criticized but a TON of people feel that the nascar bars allow crumple versus a rigid hit and tweaking those bars right into you

"read up on nascar bars" indeed. You should heed your advise.

you said to read up on nascar bars and provided a link... amusingly enough, the link says:
For side impact protection, we used an x-brace design on each side. We believe an x-brace is safer than "NASCAR bars" because the x-brace's bars will not bend in the event of a side impact without "stretching" the metal. The distance "NASCAR bars" are bent outward away from the driver is also the distance they can be bent towards the driver before the force of the impact starts to stretch the tubing. This makes impact intrusion a lot more likely,

LOL ^^^^

owned.

LOL ^^^^

owned.

Did you not see my comment under the link, people?

Its a debatable topic which I am a believer in especially in a car that will see street time. Go in the hospital for 4 months with your pelvis looking like a jigsaw puzzle and then tell me about x bracing

The guys running x bracing typically have factory door bars.....

Guys, please stick with what you know, turbos :)

Steve J--

Enlighten all of us! We'd like to hear what you have to say.

Thanks,

Search, its been discussed to death, its too late for me to type something thats been posted about for years.

Simple answer though, check out every factory FIA/Pro cage, let me know when you see a "nascar looking door bar."

The people that have done the development answer it for you. Unless you are actually in a nascar, trying to emulate a design for a different application is a waste.

Nascar is finally catching up with technology thats been around for almost two decades in motorsports with the COT side Impact protection. Which, I might add, is being implemented on my racecar thanks to DOW (who supplies the material to Nascar).

I don't know enough about roll cages. I know that NASA acknowledges "Nascar" style door side protection. The real issue is the horrible quality of the welds on that cage.

Check the Nasa rules, and you'll notice all the "nascar" paragraphs have been crossed out since they finally realized they are in fact an inferior design.

Pg. 61 http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

There is no engineering course on roll cages, its just basic structural engineering, and knowing about design and implementation. There are many fabrication shops that have sufficient welders where you can assume the welding is not to be worried about.

Unfortunately, and it really is sad, I've seen way worse welds pass inspection, and its despicable. No way in hell bird shit welds should be allowed on track, let alone actually be part of a service someone pays for and accepts!

Unfortunately for every good fabrication shop there are 100 small chop shops who think they are master welders and fabricators.

Inteereeesting... I found this article but it obviously wasn't new because "*This gutting of the door is only permitted on driver’s door and, if undertaken, the roll
cage must incorporate at least two (2) NASCAR style door bars...." was not crossed out.

The sad thing about the cage in the above car is that its on a car that will be driven on the street - so the kid is relying on the car to serve protection at all times. I wouldn't want to be the one to get hit in that thing by a car at like 20 mph - all those tubes busting out and smacking you in the face - OUCH.

While nothing to write home about Ive seen MUCH worse. A bunch of the welds do look on the cold side and the metal wasnt cleaned prior to welding all of which in the end does effect strength. Ive seen another place that TIG welded a cage in and there were a few joints that werent welded all the way around........it has passed tech like that. :confused

Look around at a test and tune night at your local strip and take a look at some of the backyard cages :eek:

There are much worse and for a drift car, though its not GREAT. Looks to provide ample protection from what a drifter would encounter.

Its not a great cage by any means........but Jon, there is MUCHHHH worse. There are people that make cages out of black iron pipe with $100 bottle jack conduit benders and arc welders.........though its not perfect, there are worse.

BTW there are too many Jons. I was refering to UM in the above Jon reference.

Just to clarify. :)

Someone buy my engine

-feels mildly ashamed for plug of forsale parts-

:D

Someone buy my engine

-feels mildly ashamed for plug of forsale parts-

:D

I'll take it for free!

I'll take it for free!

Stick with being a junior designer.........we have enough comedians in the world. :stickoutt

There are much worse and for a drift car, though its not GREAT. Looks to provide ample protection from what a drifter would encounter.

Its not a great cage by any means........but Jon, there is MUCHHHH worse. There are people that make cages out of black iron pipe with $100 bottle jack conduit benders and arc welders.........though its not perfect, there are worse.


i agree..

I am sure there is much worse but that is still pretty disappointing!

I am sure there is much worse but that is still pretty disappointing!


also agree, as anal as i am about qualtiy i would be upset if i paid top dollar for this.

however if i had fabbed that myself i would be somewhat proud

also agree, as anal as i am about qualtiy i would be upset if i paid top dollar for this.

however if i had fabbed that myself i would be somewhat proud

Ha, same here :D

Guys, please stick with what you know, turbos :)
Good attitude

Well I'm glad we all know how a weld should look . But how many here really know what they are looking at ? I'm sure there are many who just jumped on the bandwagon ie; no penetration,looks bad,contamination,bad design. Man oh man, how many of you know that it looks like a MIG weld. Actually most of it has the indication of being ok (not perty but ok). Also it looks like mild steel. Not my choice but it had to pass some kind of inspection. Maybe some of you need to look at some SCCA racers before you pass judgement so quickly. Surely how would you feel if someone started to discet your project and didn't have all the facts. BTW those welds look far better than some of the crap I see at the local tracks that were professionally inspected. ///J.T.///

Didn't clean it and or didn't use enough/correct shield gas.

Volk could probably tell us more. I've welded stainless and mild and it never turned orange... and that bead around everything has like maybe 1/5 penetration as it does width... How do you know how much penetration he has? Did you cut the tube at the weld and measure it? Orange is a lack of gas OR cheap gas 75/25 mix. yes it can be contamination. I just think talking penetration without analyzing properly is useless and damaging to the builder and a personal prefferance issue. ///J.T.///

How do you know how much penetration he has? Did you cut the tube at the weld and measure it? Orange is a lack of gas OR cheap gas 75/25 mix. yes it can be contamination. I just think talking penetration without analyzing properly is useless and damaging to the builder and a personal prefferance issue. ///J.T.///

I am going purely on the corner joint where the weld is about 1/4" wide and nearly that far off the metal. In his other pics the weld is very "splatter" looking like on the floor pan. He is definitely using wrong or shit gas. I've seen some similar welds on weldingweb and they test them with the old "hammer hit" and they break in a butt weld. Not saying that'd be the case - but I for sure would not attempt a roll cage because I know my welds are not nearly consistent enough. A cage can definitely be MIG'd but that looks plain sloppy joe.

I agree with JT. Those welds aren't pretty and perfect, but 3 low-res pics isn't enough data to say they are not done right.

Matt take a look in /DSC01001.JPG there are points where he welded the horizontal bard and stopped and started the bead without overlapping. It's fairly consistent throughout the project. It'd be funny to see them pressurized or smoke tested.

That's not what I see. If it was cleaner, I think it would probably look OK.

That's not what I see. If it was cleaner, I think it would probably look OK.

You can see where he started and stopped on a contaminated weld. Since of the bead is bright and the rest brown/contaminated, he welded in 2 periods here and didn't bother to clean the whole thing before or after. The small "start stop" stuff cannot be ideal.

I'd be more worried that the guy is planning to drive the car on the street with a full cage. No helmet/harness + roll cage = death.

My M coupe has a welded six point cage and I drive it on the stree without fear of death. Because the cage is padded and because my head and torso cannot touch the cage (my arms can). I run a four point harness on the street and swap in the five point at the track.

All this talk about rollcages on the street meaning instant death remind me of those who predict instant death if a person swaps in a non-airbag steering wheel. On my 1965 Impala SS it could run legally with only a tiny two point belt setup. That's legal ... so is it safer than a 1999 M Coupe with a rollcage?

Ok, so the "= death" was a bit of an exaggeration....

Its still a general consensus that a roll cage is not a great idea on a car thats going to see street miles beyond driving to and from track.

Ok, so the "= death" was a bit of an exaggeration....

Its still a general consensus that a roll cage is not a great idea on a car thats going to see street miles beyond driving to and from track.
Only in the track forum. Here it's common. ;)

Ok, so the "= death" was a bit of an exaggeration....

Its still a general consensus that a roll cage is not a great idea on a car thats going to see street miles beyond driving to and from track.

What should one do then if they wanted their street car safer on the street and track?

A rollbar and fixed back seats, with anti-submarine 4-point harnesses for the street, and 6-point harnesses for the track.

I was a SCCA NAtional Scutineer for years and issued numerous log books..I failed a few cages.. NASCAR bars also make having a reall window that goes up and down not possible...A slightly pushed out X brace will absorb a ton of energey. I have seen a few overkilled cars with both on the same side X and Nascar.

Welding a cage is a PITA. The SCCA mandate is a continuous weld around the bar junction. No specification about the quality of the welds...

Worst cage I failed...No joke...A guy and his buddy did it in their garage...The main hoop was cut and butt joined then welded with open ends... actual conversation...No floor plates of any kind!

Me.."so you did this cage"
him "yup, me and my buddy"
me "where did you get the specifications, and what tubing is it?"
him "we just had a small model and we copied it the best we could, i think its muffler pipe we just found it around the shop..."
me " Man I hate to tell you but its not legal and it all has to come out"
him " thats BS I did a good job, its just dam tubes..."
me " here's my extra GCR read it and then come back with the right cage.."

He then told me I didn't know shit and drove off back to his trailer fairly pissed... We never saw him the rest of the year...The other guy at the tech shed with me was slack jawed...

I have seen a few cages fail on high impact from poor welding...That passed anual tech....Scarry huh...

I got tired of being yelled at by racers so I stopped doing it...It was a thankless job...

Ok Urine Machine...

Here it is everybody, the car still has factory door bars...contrary to UrineMachine's really accurate post....maybe if he took the time to see the car in person before passing judgement he would have known this....or if he took the time to read the thread he jacked these pictures from.

I have seen the cage in person and I can tell you that cleaned up it looks just fine.

So please, UM, either shut the fuck up, or take the time out of your busy schedule of cross posting pictures of other people's work from one forum to another to drop in and see the cage.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this one...and embarassing yourself in the process.

I say you guys fight til death. Cam will fly up and video tape it!!!! :buttrock:buttrock:buttrock:buttrock

Ok Urine Machine...

Here it is everybody, the car still has factory door bars...contrary to UrineMachine's really accurate post....maybe if he took the time to see the car in person before passing judgement he would have known this....or if he took the time to read the thread he jacked these pictures from.

I have seen the cage in person and I can tell you that cleaned up it looks just fine.

So please, UM, either shut the fuck up, or take the time out of your busy schedule of cross posting pictures of other people's work from one forum to another to drop in and see the cage.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this one...and embarassing yourself in the process.


Even the builder said its less than optimal. Have fun!

Go post those pics to a professional named Zapster over on welding web... see how it's received!

Ok Urine Machine...

Here it is everybody, the car still has factory door bars...contrary to UrineMachine's really accurate post....maybe if he took the time to see the car in person before passing judgement he would have known this....or if he took the time to read the thread he jacked these pictures from.

I have seen the cage in person and I can tell you that cleaned up it looks just fine.

So please, UM, either shut the fuck up, or take the time out of your busy schedule of cross posting pictures of other people's work from one forum to another to drop in and see the cage.

You are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill with this one...and embarassing yourself in the process.

Hell of a first post I must say....

I wouldnt think twice about riding in that cage. looks way better than most I've seen. and those welds do not look bad. the orange you see at the end of the weld are where the contaminants were burned off of the surface and were transferred out of the weld joint. it is common for a mig weld. unless you are welding a completely sterile, untouched peice of steel, you will get this. also the penetration looks fine. if the weld didnt penetrate, it would look much taller and have a rounded surface rather than a concave. also, I dont get the deal of not running a cage on the street? if you're required to run it on the track for a crash, how the hell would it be worse at a lower speed impact on the street? i know of several daily driven cars with full cages.

oh btw I am a welder and fabricator, and specialize in suspension and frame modification

Even the builder said its less than optimal. Have fun!

Go post those pics to a professional named Zapster over on welding web... see how it's received!

Your turbo selection, turbo placement, manifold, engine management system, and god knows what else are also "less than optimal". Thats my professional opinion... so whats your point exactly?

Its a drift car. They don't go fast, they go loud and smokey. If they do hit something, its slowly. The cage is not great, but its adequate for the task. its better than nothing.

WOW grand slam by techno! Can't wait for the rebuttal... :eatpop:

Your turbo selection, turbo placement, manifold, engine management system, and god knows what else are also "less than optimal". Thats my professional opinion... so whats your point exactly?

Its a drift car. They don't go fast, they go loud and smokey. If they do hit something, its slowly. The cage is not great, but its adequate for the task. its better than nothing.

Editted because this is a stupid thread to comment on.

Techno, I love your professional opinion on "god knows what else". It's rare you hear a valued opinion on "god knows".

Fix your shitty mexican turbo thats on Sigmas car.

Miek and Jon. Please PLEASE take this to PM.

Boo Kenny, no fun. :(

Miek and Jon. Please PLEASE take this to PM.

It's cool Mike can talk about what he and God know with himself - they sit at the same dinner table I hear.

UM, thanks for the drama and disappointment.

UM

It's cool Mike can talk about what he and God know with himself - they sit at the same dinner table I hear.
Only on Tuesday nights... I'm busy the rest of the week.

Only on Tuesday nights... I'm busy the rest of the week.

Haha that's funny.