Question for some of you more experienced track junkies (this was my first season doing driving schools). Some background first:

I was at Lime Rock with the Patroon Chapter driving school yesterday and during my last session there was a debris flag shown so I dialed my speed back considerably (70mph down to 30/40mph) and eased off on any abrupt throttle/steering inputs and started scanning the track for debris/fluids/roadkill.

All of a sudden (going up the uphill), my back end got squirrelly and snapped around immediately, I didn't even have time to try to save it/drive out of it. Apparently another car in front had dumped coolant all over the track but we weren't able to see it at all (no signs of debris/fluids on the track at all).

The car spun into the dirt/grass and now I have a garden in my backseat, but the car/driver/instructor are all fine.

It's my first spin ever, my instructor says having a spin is inevitable, so good to get it out of my system and good that there was no damage/injuries and to move on and continue learning.

Question for you guys is, what can you do in a situation like that to either
1) Anticipate that there were fluids on the track?
2) Save the spin/car when encountering coolant?

What a way to end the driving school season..I have all winter to reflect on this..

When you see the debris flag, slow down and drive off line

Hey Billy, didnt know you got caught up in that. Glad you guys and the car were ok.

I dont drive off line until I see the debris. I just slow way down and start scanning like crazy. If the driver knew he was dumping fluid, he'd probably have gone off line and dragged the mess there too, which means you could hit debris while you're car is on the edge of the track (probably) and on the wrong side (probably) to go through the next corner correctly. I hit oil on corner entry to a turn when I was wwaaaayy off line (inside) and shot right off turn 9 at Watkins since I couldnt see the sheen from when he crossed over.

Sounds to me like you did everything right and just got caught up in a crappy situation. Spinning at LRP is no joke!

Not much more you can do if yet another car dumps it's coolant on the ground. You had already slowed down and were looking for the debris. Antifreeze is worse than oil and less visible. Like your instructor said, You do this long enough, and a spin will happen at some point. Consider yourself lucky that you were not at full speed. I had a fun experience going into hog pen at VIR when the car in front of me lost some part of the cooling system. Only warning I got was a bit of mist on the windshield before the traction went away..

There's no specific rules for always avoiding fluids. Driving off line may or may not do you any good if the driver of the car that blew up knew they had a problem. The usual reaction is to immediately get off line. Being off line may provide more grip through fluids, much like the rain line does, but there's no guarantee that will be the case.

Dealing with a snap spin is a bit more difficult in these cars due to the slow steering ratios. Best defense is no abrupt inputs easy off the throttle and treat the whole area like there was ice on the ground...

Thanks for the input guys. I've heard coolant was slick, but I was surprised how slick it really was..kinda felt like someone pulled the rug out from under me.

I think the most surprising thing for me was how difficult to see the coolant was to see. Almost invisible (didn't help that there was speedy dry on the track from an earlier incident).

I guess I could've slowed down even more, but like JClark says...LRP is like a parking lot during driving schools so I didn't want the guys behind me to slam into me (that almost happened anyway!)

I guess the biggest lesson I learned was that you control < 50% of the risk when on the track, the other half is other cars/drivers/track conditions.

Needless to say I've definitely got a lot more respect for track safety now, I'm going to redirect the money I was going to spend on a supercharger kit for a roll bar/fixed back seats/harness instead.

Any recommendations for a good rollbar that can still provide occasional access to rear seats (e36 m3 coupe)?

Best tip I can give is that the guy behind you might spin on the same coolant, so clear the area as quickly as safely possible.

Echo (track safety)!!!! I recently parked in the paddock at Road A, seems I took the vacant spot of an accomplished driver who through no fault of his own was at the hospital due to a similar event. I had been considering the HANS device but hadn't made the purchase. After the story I went immediately over to the vendor and purchased mine, it complemented the 4 pt. bar / fixed back seats / harnesses already in the car. So for me it's about 24 ounces of prevention (HANS weight?) instead of $1000 of go fast goodies!

Needless to say I've definitely got a lot more respect for track safety now, I'm going to redirect the money I was going to spend on a supercharger kit for a roll bar/fixed back seats/harness instead.

Any recommendations for a good rollbar that can still provide occasional access to rear seats (e36 m3 coupe)?

Good choice, my SC was overrated. There are a few good roll bar threads in this forum. I have a Kirk bar with a removable cross brace that I thought I'd use but it's never been out. Even without it in, having a passenger back there prob isnt a good idea.

When I see a debris flag, not only due you start looking more intensely, but I start taking deep sniffs. You can usually smell antifreeze. Also when I see someone get out of shape ahead of me for no apparent reason, I start to scan and sniff as well. Use all your senses, Well, except touch. :)

I've also been reflecting on this issue since I hit oil on the back straight at Road Atlanta in June. Unfortunately I was doing about 115 when I hit the oil, as the flag station hadn't yet reacted.

I don't know that there was anything that I could've done, which is very scarey, since I can't really learn from a mistake.

Driving off line sounds like sage advise, as long as you know it's there. For me it was a sudden surprise that wiped out my car...fortunately I walked away...and I'm back on the track in a new track car.

I guess sometimes it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

My "best" advise was already given...

Slow down considerable - Check behind you first... don't slam on the brake if not safe :)

Move off line as far as safely possible... This "should" get you away from whatever debris as more than likely whatever the incident was it will be on the line.

Obviously if they knew they dumped fluid or were dumping they may have pulled off... So might not "always" be the "best".

I'm the guy that dropped the coolant (hose came completely off) although I was running in the intermediate run group. I am truly sorry for ruining your day and killing that session. Wish someone had communicated it earlier to me. I'd still have an engine.
I ended up spinning in my own coolant on the downhill. Snap spin just like yours. We didn't realize the cause of the spin at the time even though we both saw your spin behind us(maybe it was another white e30 m3 as you were in the Novice group??). We both were surprised. I was taking my normal line though a little faster than before. No warning at all. That's what happens.
What depresses me that after the spin I asked my instructor if we should go into the pits as we were REQUIRED to do, he said no. So I did another hot lap with no coolant. Finally I asked to go into the pits after a huge cloud of blue smoke came out on no-name staight.
But by then the damage was done.
Is your car OK besides the dirt and grass? Again my apologies.

Question for some of you more experienced track junkies (this was my first season doing driving schools). Some background first:

I was at Lime Rock with the Patroon Chapter driving school yesterday and during my last session there was a debris flag shown so I dialed my speed back considerably (70mph down to 30/40mph) and eased off on any abrupt throttle/steering inputs and started scanning the track for debris/fluids/roadkill.

All of a sudden (going up the uphill), my back end got squirrelly and snapped around immediately, I didn't even have time to try to save it/drive out of it. Apparently another car in front had dumped coolant all over the track but we weren't able to see it at all (no signs of debris/fluids on the track at all).

The car spun into the dirt/grass and now I have a garden in my backseat, but the car/driver/instructor are all fine.

It's my first spin ever, my instructor says having a spin is inevitable, so good to get it out of my system and good that there was no damage/injuries and to move on and continue learning.

Question for you guys is, what can you do in a situation like that to either
1) Anticipate that there were fluids on the track?
2) Save the spin/car when encountering coolant?

What a way to end the driving school season..I have all winter to reflect on this..

Glad you made out ok. Sounds like you did all you can.

Like Jesse said, you gotta be in "alert" mode. Scanning the track, feeling for car movement. Do not use aggressive inputs. Drive like that section is covered in ice. Look for potential run-off area's. Should you start to lose control it might be nice to have a pre-planned area you can go off track into.

Once you start to lose control I can't offer any other advice than the standard put both feet in.

Don

What depresses me that after the spin I asked my instructor if we should go into the pits as we were REQUIRED to do, he said no. I always go in if not for anything else but to collect my thoughts.
Very bad advice on the instructor's part.
I had a mechanical problem with my transmission and coasted off line and off track.
If I was leaking coolant I'd try to get off the track as safely as possible and shut it down.

So far I haven't caused a full course black, but my day will come.
It's all part of what we do. I am never upset coming in early.
There will be more sessions.

Question for some of you more experienced track junkies (this was my first season doing driving schools). Some background first:

I was at Lime Rock with the Patroon Chapter driving school yesterday and during my last session there was a debris flag shown so I dialed my speed back considerably (70mph down to 30/40mph) and eased off on any abrupt throttle/steering inputs and started scanning the track for debris/fluids/roadkill.


Yeah driving schools should start banning coolant on school cars. I know it's difficult with winter around the corner in certain parts of the country but otherwise you're going to keep wiping cars out that have almost no safety equipment in them to properly protect the occupants at a race track during a big shunt.

Oil you can't do anything about but at least take coolant out of the equation like race series do.

Carlos.

^^ I'm all for it, but it throws a big wrench in the plans of DE first timers who are driving their street car there, especially for the many people that dont do their own work. That adds a $120 coolant flush to the list of things they need. I doubt many clubs will endorse it and the ones that do will see their novice class numbers drop. Just my $.02.

redmist, not sure if it was you that dropped the coolant in my session, I know there were a few cars that had coolant problems throughout the day. I was in the intermediate group, last session of the day. if it was you, no worries, obviously not something you did intentionally (like you said, you'd still have a motor). just surprised your instructor didnt bring it in.

Car is fine for the most part, although I did notice a hairline crack in the windshield..kind of odd, maybe the car bouncing around in the dirt jolted it to crack?

small price to pay to learn a big lesson I guess. I must say Lime Rock is pretty treacherous...between all the cars having mechanical failures and the congestion of a driving school, minimal runoff room and narrow track..I think I may be spending more track days at the Glen instead...

^^ I'm all for it, but it throws a big wrench in the plans of DE first timers who are driving their street car there, especially for the many people that dont do their own work. That adds a $120 coolant flush to the list of things they need. I doubt many clubs will endorse it and the ones that do will see their novice class numbers drop. Just my $.02.

Perhaps not for the novice run group but for intermediate/advanced and for sure the instructors. These are the people that are flying around the track and could get hurt by slipping and sliding on coolant.

Carlos.

small price to pay to learn a big lesson I guess. I must say Lime Rock is pretty treacherous...between all the cars having mechanical failures and the congestion of a driving school, minimal runoff room and narrow track..I think I may be spending more track days at the Glen instead...

The Glen can eat cars as well, and then you get a bill for the armco you damage also.

Carlos.

All the above advice applies. I'll give my own. Anyone who tracks their car also needs to accept the undisputable fact that sometimes sh*t just goes wrong. Sometimes, there's nothing you can do. It's called "being a passenger", "nowhere to go", or "innocent victim". Whether it's unseen fluid on the track, a car spinning across the track and collecting you after you thought you'd got through, or a mechanical failure, the reality of the race track is sometimes, there's nothing any amount of training (or experience) can do for you.

Of course, that doesn't mean stop learning and asking questions.

I think I may be spending more track days at the Glen instead...
:confused

I don't find the Glen to be any safer IRT hitting stuff. Traffic isn't as much of a problem however, so that's a bonus (might have had better warning due to spacing).

Save for the esses, the Glen has much better runoff and gravel that can hopefully keep you out of the wall. Plus its much more fun to wreck cars at WGI than LRP. :D

Yeah driving schools should start banning coolant on school cars. I know it's difficult with winter around the corner in certain parts of the country but otherwise you're going to keep wiping cars out that have almost no safety equipment in them to properly protect the occupants at a race track during a big shunt.

Oil you can't do anything about but at least take coolant out of the equation like race series do.

Carlos.


+1

It's absurd to think that people...even RACERS!!! are running on the track with anti-freeze:nono
Please people, don't be lazy with this stuff. Remove it from your cooling system for track use.

**Maybe it's time for a special tech session for sniffing out anti-freeze for ALL participants at the track***:devillook

Im also for "Water Only" attrack events. At least at the advanced level, there is no excuse not to. I went to water after my first event this season and havent looked back. Winterization is no biggie.

IMO, its a very inexpensive "SAFETY MOD" that will protect you as well as your fellow drivers.

Heres a post from a recent coolant drop induced wreck...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10800855&postcount=25

While we're on the subject, what you do you guys use for a lubricant in your cooling system? I've been using 10% antifreeze + water wetter + water. When I spill it on the garage floor, its much less slippery than 50/50. :cool

While we're on the subject, what you do you guys use for a lubricant in your cooling system? I've been using 10% antifreeze + water wetter + water. When I spill it on the garage floor, its much less slippery than 50/50. :cool


Jesse,

Up to 2 gallons (PWR 57mm Rad) of distilled water with 1 bottle of water wetter...

While we're on the subject, what you do you guys use for a lubricant in your cooling system? I've been using 10% antifreeze + water wetter + water. When I spill it on the garage floor, its much less slippery than 50/50. :cool

I use straight water with anti-rust/pump lube added. I think the last brand I used was Bars or maybe Gunk? Whatever they had at the Autozone down the street:D I don't use water-wetter.

With my upcoming turbo project this is my MAIN concern. I would hate to water the track for anyone so I'll make damn sure my equipment is reliable before I even consider a DE next year...even though I'm just running water.

Don

I use straight water with anti-rust/pump lube added. I think the last brand I used was Bars or maybe Gunk? Whatever they had at the Autozone down the street:D I don't use water-wetter.


Water Wetter does two things that I'm aware of, change the surface tension of the water and lubricate the water pump but like you I also add anti-rust.

Carlos.

What depresses me that after the spin I asked my instructor if we should go into the pits as we were REQUIRED to do, he said no. So I did another hot lap with no coolant. Finally I asked to go into the pits after a huge cloud of blue smoke came out on no-name staight.
But by then the damage was done.


Well the most important part is that you and everyone else was OK.
The instructor is there to instruct and guide you --and sometimes kick you in the butt. Since you are driving and it is your car --you should pull in when you feel it is necessary.

Also --the rule is there for exactly that reason. After Spin or 4 off or 2 off --The stewards can not only see if you are OK ( head screwed on right) --but if the car is OK.

Needless to say but I won't be...
Using anti-freeze
Using aftermarket hoses
Listening to my instructor when he goes contrary to the sanctioning body's rules.

Glad no one was hurt or cars damaged besides my own.

Lesson learned.

Let the rebuilding begin!

Water Wetter does two things that I'm aware of, change the surface tension of the water and lubricate the water pump but like you I also add anti-rust.

Carlos.

Supposedly, it also has a rust inhibitor in it as well. But I pay 2 bucks for inhibitor/wp lubricant and from the testing I've seen straight water with water wetter does not net much of a reduction in temps. Now 50/50 and water wetter is another matter.

Don

Billy glad you and the car were ok. As others here have said coolant is some nasty sh*t on the track, like tap dancing on ice...

NAPA/Mac's Number 13 is good stuff, and not too expensive. It takes care of water pumps that cost more than a S50 engine :)

Supposedly, it also has a rust inhibitor in it as well. But I pay 2 bucks for inhibitor/wp lubricant and from the testing I've seen straight water with water wetter does not net much of a reduction in temps. Now 50/50 and water wetter is another matter.

Don



A proper cooling system should be able to handle straight water and water wetter for track use. If not, you've got problems with something else!

While at Summit Point this past August...dog days of summer kind of heat, I never exceeded 220-225 while *idling* in the pits with my S50B32...WITHOUT a mechanical or electric fan!!!

Once up and running on track...temps stay around 200-210 during those really hot days.

My best friend was having issues with getting too hot out on the track that weekend. When we checked his coolant...the freak'n engine builder used a mix of anti-freeze and water. STUPID:mad
Anyway, straight water and water wetter FIXED his overheating.

There's absolutely positively NO reason to EVER run *anti-freeze* on the track, unless you're ice racing:D