Let me tell you about a very weird race I had today. This is my first real race in my BMW, which I have had since Oct 2002. I am not a racer, and do not consider myself a good driver, but an average one. No training yet.

I met Mark, a really cool guy :wave: , on one of the forums and he has a 2002 330ci manual with some really nice mods:
-18' hamann wheels (22lbs/) w/ SO3's (staggered)
-Brembo 355mm GrandT. brake kit w/ dual Floating slotted rotors & huge 4 pot calipers (all stainless lines F& B)
-Dinan :stage 3 suspension (all koni adjustable) much lower, stiffer & responsive!
-Dinan :F & R tower braces
-Conforti CAI with ITG cone filter CAI
-Dinan: Big bore Throttle body,
-Dinan 3.15 Differential (read final drive gear) stage
-Dinan 3 software . (It's now a "Dinan Sig .3 "car, big deal.)
-UUC short shifter
-Supersprint all stainless exhaust (cat-back)
-M3 side mirrors & M3 steering wheel
He estimates that he has a lot more torque to tire that stock, which I am incline to agree. He has never dyno-ed it. He guess over 240 lbs of torque. :buttrock

My car is a 2001 330ci manual with:
-SSR Comp 18”: 8.5” in front and 9” in rear on Komho 712.
-Benfer Performance CAI
-1400k miles on car (think he had about 20K miles)
That is it for performance mods.

We had a race today in a very secluded industrial area, where there where no other drivers around. I mean dead, we can sit parked in the middle of the street and have a conversation. So I think that this will be fun even though he will kick my ass to the curb. Eat my lunch as I watch him spank me. :biglaughb

He took me for a run in his car (he drove) and I would have to say that it has some real kick and he was not a bad driver and likes to show his cars sweet spots. He never did it a stop, because he did not want to drop the clutch. The car was a real performer. We also switched cars for a test run. I liked the way the shocks felt, and the butt-dyno did tell me that it was a little more aggressive than mine. (this is very subjective)

Well here is the wierd part. I know that all of you and I would have our money on Mark's car, right?
We had 4 runs. Two at 20 mph rolls and two at 40 mph rolls.

1st run:
We started down at 20 mph. I waited for him to gun it and I would drop my foot. He was a ¼ car ahead because I waited to hear his car gun it. I was in 2nd and rev it all the up to 6000 then kick it to 3rd. In 3rd, I started to catch up and walk away. In 4th, I was doing 90 mph and was at least 2 cars ahead. Then we shut it down.

2nd run:
I would call it. At 25 mph, I tapped the gas to rev up to signal a start. Then gunned it in 2nd and he were were pretty even. He got a slight jump as he was moving (oh so slightly) forward, but it was very brief as my car matched up and finished 2nd. In 3rd, my car started to pull away at the end of 3rd. 4th, I started to walk away again. Shut it down at 80 mph.

Now, each of these times he said that he would miss the shift.
So now he wants to try to do it at a higher speed. This should also be where all his mods will really shine.

3rd run:
We started at 40 mph and he started the run. I was in 2nd and my front bumper was at his rear. I shifted to 3rd and I started to catch up and was dead even at 60 ish. As I tried to shift to 4th, I missed and went into 2nd and the car over reved and had to shut down. But I was pulling on him. He won this one.

4th and final run:
I started the run and I out performed him the whole way.

We got to talking afterwards and he admitted that he would not run his car up past 5500 rpms. He was fine when he drove me around and the car was superb when I drove it. We think that he was a little spooked that I was next to him. I would take my car up a little past 5500 rmps and then shift.
Could this little hesitation hurt him that bad?

We both were very confused of the out come to this head to head battle. Truth be told, I was very disappointed that I did not get beat down like a civic. If all these mods and I was able to run him down. Why would I want to get these mods?
Driver’s skills is very important, but I rode with him and he was average like me. He is a very big car enthusiast and has very good knowledge and experience with fast cars and enjoys taking his cars on curvy roads. Owns Mini S and Boxster and has played with AMG and M3s. He has even put down payment for a new S4.

So what do y’all think? :dunno

Considering the peak torque is around that range it could hurt him. Ask silverstreak hes our resident drag king.

So you both have heavy 18's and CAI's. He's got a TB and chip, so he's making MAYBE 5-8 more horsepower...whatever it is it's negligible. Now, you said that he's got 3.15 gearing. What is stock? If that's a shorter gear than stock (like if stock is 2.95), then he should have walked away from you. But if stock gearing is say, 3.23, then the outcome of the race makes sense. I've never heard of anyone putting on a numerically lower gear, except very high HP cars.

If he wasn't shifting at redline, then yes, that makes a BIG difference.

Why the hell would you pay that much for overpriced(IMO) Dinan mods then never shift over 5500RPM? Hell - I hit that just cruising around town. :devillook


Tell him to let 'er rev! The factory redline is conservative, he could probably shift at 6500(I guess he can rev that high) and still be making plenty good power!

What was his reason for not shifting at 5500? Was he just telling you he doesn't shift past that? He could have been lying, you never know

why did he pay so much for the mods and he can't use the true power of his car?

Maybe he doesn't understand. The motor is able and designed withstand acceleration to the redline and/or cutoff. Most horsepower is made at or near peak rpms. Why do F1 engine manufacturers try to get the highest rpm out of a motor (BMW at 19000 rpms)? Because that is where the power is at. Most street driven engine are the same way. Some have peak power that falls off a hundred rpm before redline, but the drop of power is minimal. Once the oil and engine is warmed up, accelerate that bad boy to the yellow or red line dammit. Stop being a puss.

325is Dude,
Well I thought that the top torque and HP is at 5500 rpm.

ADAM//M,
My SSRs are very light wieght 18". They are 16 lbs.
I would think that his CAI / Exhaust/ Chip would give him 15 HP and TQ (at least).
The gearing is an up grade (non-stock) and maybe the engine can not handle the lower gears. It may need a stronger HP to handle the gear. ????

Def and dave is cool and kaiservon,
He said that he drives his wifes Boxster, but it is a Auto and lets the computer shift at its high rev point. He may not trust his own abilities to shift in time or correctly and blow an engine like I almost did. :az:

Any ways, it was very fun and Mark is a great guy. I might suggest to him do the next Drivers Ed. Get him used to going to the limit with is very nice car. :stickoutt

Originally posted by dan330
325is Dude,
Well I thought that the top torque and HP is at 5500 rpm.



I'm no racer myself.. but I think they mean you gotta keep on going... sure you reach the peak hp/tq at 5500... but when you shift you drop back down out of the peak hp/tq.... so i think they mean he's gotta reach 5500 for that peak.. and keep on pushing through to redline to maintain that peak... so I guess in reality.. since you were willing to redline you were probably pushing out more hp/tq than he was for a majority of the time..?? :dunno ?? eh.. i like i said... i don't race.. i just like to wreak havoc by my lonesome self... :devillook

"what officer? 95 in a 30?? you must have the wrong car...":D kidding.. only kidding... i rarely speed.. especially nowadays..gas is getting expensive.. :D

LOL

I have no other comments except that you should get your car checked out after misshifting into 2nd.

Originally posted by b0rf
LOL

I have no other comments except that you should get your car checked out after misshifting into 2nd.

Werd. I can't believe you continued to race like it was nothing, after overrevving.......

Originally posted by Slvr328IS
Werd. I can't believe you continued to race like it was nothing, after overrevving.......

OK you guys got me worried. :bawl :help :95

What should I look for? What do I tell the dealer to look for when I take it in?

I am not seeing any problems and so it will cost me to take in for a looky. I am at 14K miles. So my first service will be next month. Do you all think that I can wait till then?

Oh, I forgot to mention.
You will not believe this too.
During the whole time I had forgotten to turn of the DSC at all!

I know he did turn his by holding it down for 5 sec.

I has to be him shifting to early. There is no other reason.
But still with all the mods, the car should natrually kick my ass with a basic driver behind the wheel!

Originally posted by dan330
I has to be him shifting to early. There is no other reason.
But still with all the mods, the car should natrually kick my ass with a basic driver behind the wheel!

That chip and TB make very little difference...certainly not 15 HP/TQ. Up to 5,500 RPM, I would bet that the Dinan chip and throttle body on a 330 would make maybe 3-5 more HP. Past the factory rev limiter is where those mods would make a difference. But since he didn't take it past the factory rev limit, then he didn't see much benefit.

What you *felt* in his car when driving it was the torque multiplication associated with the lower (higher numerical) gearing.

You obviously are a more agreesive driver than he, plain and simple.

I bet his HP peaks right before 6000RPM. For optimal acceleration you should shift about 500-600RPM PAST your HP peak(which is even further past your torque peak).

So he should have been taking it up to the rev limiter in every gear pretty much.

The car is designed to rev that much - he should really learn to let it ring out. There is no reason to continue dumping money into a car when the driver is afraid to let the car even get a whiff of redline...

the chip for the 330's dont do anything.

throttle body does minimal increases.

he most likely heavier or something.

but in a race why would u shift at 5500 rpms?
u shift till redline.

I think him shifting that early really does make a difference.

I experience this same thing before with one of my friends. His current car is his first manual car (a 2001 Trans Am) so when we met he had only had the car for a couple of months. Well we decided to have a little friendly race...this was about 2 years ago when I still had my 2.5L. So we raced a few times and I was taking him from 1st all the way up to 4th gear and I was thinking "what in the hell???". So I went for a ride with him in his car and it was fast but when it came time for him to race someone on the road I noticed he was shifting at around 5000rpm. I told him that he had to take that sucker all the way to redline to get most out of the car. Needless to say, after that little pep talk he was beating me left and right.

The point of that story is Mark is really not getting the most out of the car if he's shifting that early.

your car probably has a stronger engine then his.

His car felt faster because you weren't driving, cars feel alot faster for the passenger.

get your car checked out, you could have serious damage. and make sure you never mis-shift into 2nd again.

His car is likely heavier with all those suspension mods and such, and his car may have a tad more hp, but not a lot to make much of a difference.

Next, gearing should give him a slight edge, but only is he drives it right. Shifting 1000 rpm shy of redline is just silly if you intend on actually winning a race.

On each upshift, his tach will fall below torque peak, and he' shy of hp peak before each shift.

For drag racing- he's not a good driver...

eh, this all pretty much shows that alot of mods are only psych mods. you only think your car is faster, maybe it is, but only a little. thats why I'm keeping my M3 stock and just doing some cosmetic mods.

JT

The best mod you can ever do is on the driver, not the car... experience and skill will go a lot further than 5-10 hp...

FYI - Most Hamman wheels are like 30lbs a piece vs yours which are 16-18lbs front rear. That difference right there will make you quicker, even with those Mickey Mouse bolt ons he has.

A chip does nearly nothing in that car. I would say the intake has a slight gain, but could also have a loss if it sucks in engine heat.

The differential is the only thing he had that would give that kick you mentioned. The rest is smoke and mirrors from the exhaust sound...

He was just BSing you after losing.

hamanns weigh a huge amount compared to your lightweight SSRs! my friend's 318 with the stock 17" rims will lose to me slightly to 60; when he switched back to the bottlecap 15s he could get me (also 318) by a car length..

about the wheel's weight. Have read in other posts that argue about the benifits of wheel weight reduction. It seams like the consensous is that it is to little to make a big difference. :confused:

I also am bigger than he is, so I must weigth 50 lbs more. :biglaughb

Some of yall are saying that his mods are not worth it. That is wierd, because a lot of people do them. They must do something or it would not be so popular. :dunno

The best answer so far must be him stopping at 5500 rpms. That must be it. :az: :az: