divebomb passes shouldn't occur in noncompetitive sessions, but it's important to be wary and know how to deal with them
http://picasaweb.google.com/everbruin/OpenTrackEducation

Here's one from Friday 9/21 w/ Trackmasters. There was a Mini a "comfortable" distance behind me as we entered T6. I set up with my normal line expecting to point him by at the end of the turn. Just after turning in, I saw him closing fast on the left. Once he turned in, his street tires were absolutely _wailing_. I got out of it a bit and took a wider line than normal, hoping to minimize the side-by-side time with him through the turn and give him some space if things got ugly. Thankfully he kept it together enough not to make any contact.

Here's the video:
http://video.thenobot.org/20070921-infineon_tmr_zs_mini_pass.mov

good one; i know tmr's drivers meetings have forbidden that kind of pass so i hope he got black flagged.

i was slightly unnerved myself in the carousel last Sun.
i passed someone on the left at 6's braking zone and stayed inside for the carousel. then i heard loud street tire squealing so i glance right and see a blue c5 vette twitching to my right. he recovered and i kept my line but backed off a bit instead of more gas as i headed for the apex. i didn't want to beat him to it and force him into the marbles outside. or subject myself to his judgment or an ugly situation.

I think I know the guy in the Mini, he's an asshat.

I can not believe that people do that. At the cca schools we had an case in the instructor group where it got really ugly. It was at summit point on the last turn before the straight (t10?). A really nice 2002 race car was in front and a e30 m3 was in chase. The 2002 looked like it had some brake fade and went deep the m3 decided to pass in the turn. Just then the 02 hooked up and turned in! The M3 went four off on the apex came back on and they connected hard on the front quater pannels. Well the guy in the M3 hit the gas instead of the brake and shot across grass into the tires and the car shot up about 10 feet in the air, and landed on top of the wall. We ran over his bumper just before the red flag came out.

What I do not understand is if you are not racing what do people do this? I am very polite on the track and always give a point by. I have an es for god sake I drive with my hand out the window on the straights. However, if some asshat did that to me I would probably lay a few tire rubs on their paint before I moved over. Maybe not, but I would think about it!

Here's one from Friday 9/21 w/ Trackmasters. There was a Mini a "comfortable" distance behind me as we entered T6. I set up with my normal line expecting to point him by at the end of the turn. Just after turning in, I saw him closing fast on the left. Once he turned in, his street tires were absolutely _wailing_. I got out of it a bit and took a wider line than normal, hoping to minimize the side-by-side time with him through the turn and give him some space if things got ugly. Thankfully he kept it together enough not to make any contact.

Here's the video:
http://video.thenobot.org/20070921-infineon_tmr_zs_mini_pass.mov
I cant see this vid, but I'd love to see what Mini this was. Was it red?

I cant see this vid, but I'd love to see what Mini this was. Was it red?

Yeah, it was red.

Wow, some of those assclowns should have been immediately sent home.

Mini vid was kinda nerve racking, eh?

divebomb passes shouldn't occur in noncompetitive sessions, but it's important to be wary and know how to deal with them
http://picasaweb.google.com/everbruin/OpenTrackEducation

The T4 one seemed a bit iffy, but yeah the 325 driver seemed aware of it, no issues. The T11 one seemed like it was a bit late, but then the Porsche did leave the door open and appears to have seen the overtaking car.

To be fair, it's hard to judge from that little clip. How long had the cars been following one another? Was the trailing car significantly faster? Had the leading car been "holding up" the other car? Hard to tell if there was any "communication" between the two cars - I sometimes do a right point-by inside the car from habit of having the window net in during races.

Passing, and being passed, in braking zones and in corners is a skill that needs to be learned. Not just being aware of cars around you (from a being-passed point of view), but also where are "good" passing areas and "not-so-good" passing areas. T4 in many cases is a not-so-good one, mainly because of the T5 & T6 areas that are much better and that the T4 braking zone is downhill and the turn in is early. T11 is a very good passing area, both in the braking zone and in the corner.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Jim

The T11 one seemed like it was a bit late, but then the Porsche did leave the door open and appears to have seen the overtaking car.
That was me in the M3 passing the Porsche in T11. The driver saw me in her mirror and pointed me by on the inside well before the turn in to 11. That is the only reason I moved to the inside in the braking zone.

I gave her a nice wave as I went by. She left me a very comfortable distance and I thanked her for the great heads-up driving in the following download session.

Betcha it was this clown http://northamericanmotoring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78785 (mhtml:{DBCC3129-FAF7-4DE4-84B7-8A62400E9360}mid://00000086/!x-usc:http://northamericanmotoring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78785)
The guy tries to make a competition out of every HPDE he attends. He's been banned at at least one that I know of.
Car used to have orange wheels if not like the pics in the link.

thanks for clarifying! sorry for the misunderstanding; i've deleted that vid. odd that the porsche would risk marbles on the outside instead of backing off in the straight to let you pass
That was me in the M3 passing the Porsche in T11. The driver saw me in her mirror and pointed me by on the inside well before the turn in to 11. That is the only reason I moved to the inside in the braking zone.

I can not believe that people do that. At the cca schools we had an case in the instructor group where it got really ugly. It was at summit point on the last turn before the straight (t10?). A really nice 2002 race car was in front and a e30 m3 was in chase. The 2002 looked like it had some brake fade and went deep the m3 decided to pass in the turn. Just then the 02 hooked up and turned in! The M3 went four off on the apex came back on and they connected hard on the front quater pannels. Well the guy in the M3 hit the gas instead of the brake and shot across grass into the tires and the car shot up about 10 feet in the air, and landed on top of the wall. We ran over his bumper just before the red flag came out.

What I do not understand is if you are not racing what do people do this? I am very polite on the track and always give a point by. I have an es for god sake I drive with my hand out the window on the straights. However, if some asshat did that to me I would probably lay a few tire rubs on their paint before I moved over. Maybe not, but I would think about it!

I bet they drive the same way on the street. I see the same "divebomb" bullsh*t every day on the highway where people race down the right turn lane and then cut in at the last second.

It's a good thing I am smart enough to leave my guns at home.

Joe

ah, i've tracked w/ that ttd mini when it had orange wheels. it was fast; luckily i've not had an issue w/ him

If I'm thinking of the same guy, that red Mini is an instructor for a couple different DE groups in the Northern California area. I've both driven and gotten ride along's on the track near him and almost every time I've been disappointed with his lack of respect for others around him. Definitely a HPDE champion..:rolleyes

The T4 one seemed a bit iffy, but yeah the 325 driver seemed aware of it, no issues. The T11 one seemed like it was a bit late, but then the Porsche did leave the door open and appears to have seen the overtaking car.

To be fair, it's hard to judge from that little clip. How long had the cars been following one another? Was the trailing car significantly faster? Had the leading car been "holding up" the other car? Hard to tell if there was any "communication" between the two cars - I sometimes do a right point-by inside the car from habit of having the window net in during races.

Passing, and being passed, in braking zones and in corners is a skill that needs to be learned. Not just being aware of cars around you (from a being-passed point of view), but also where are "good" passing areas and "not-so-good" passing areas. T4 in many cases is a not-so-good one, mainly because of the T5 & T6 areas that are much better and that the T4 braking zone is downhill and the turn in is early. T11 is a very good passing area, both in the braking zone and in the corner.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Jim

I agree. Honestly, I've probably been involved in similar passes to that first video. My car doesn't have much power and sometimes people point me by without letting up on the gas. I don't catch them until the brake zone and if they seem aware and appear to be purposely leaving me room I'll go on by. Maybe not quite as close as he does in the video, but not far off; I bet it would look similar on tape.

Unfortunately I can't seem to view the Mini video for some reason.

Unfortunately I can't seem to view the Mini video for some reason.+1

Emre

I finally was able to view it. And yes, it's that same red Mini. :rolleyes
This same guy declared me "the safety Nazi" because I had commented on some Minis that were racing without proper safety equipment, like window nets.:confused
That link to that thread I posted kinda shows what the guys about. He would always post before any HPDEs that he was attending, some type of challenge to anyone that could pass him.

I can not believe that people do that. At the cca schools we had an case in the instructor group where it got really ugly. It was at summit point on the last turn before the straight (t10?). A really nice 2002 race car was in front and a e30 m3 was in chase. The 2002 looked like it had some brake fade and went deep the m3 decided to pass in the turn. Just then the 02 hooked up and turned in! The M3 went four off on the apex came back on and they connected hard on the front quater pannels. Well the guy in the M3 hit the gas instead of the brake and shot across grass into the tires and the car shot up about 10 feet in the air, and landed on top of the wall. We ran over his bumper just before the red flag came out.

What I do not understand is if you are not racing what do people do this? I am very polite on the track and always give a point by. I have an es for god sake I drive with my hand out the window on the straights. However, if some asshat did that to me I would probably lay a few tire rubs on their paint before I moved over. Maybe not, but I would think about it!

Eventually someone is going to be killed by this behaviour if it hasn't already occured.

There are really only 3 ways to address this. I assume we are talking about HPDEs and Track Days, not real racing.

1. Do Nothing and let events play out, maybe someone gets hurt, maybe not.

2. Ban all passing in turns and eject anyone who does. If you allow point by passing in turns then the offender can always say he saw a finger.

3. Ban all passing, gee that takes all the fun out, but there are always fools that can't live by the rules. And thier 3 seconds of thrill are more valuable than your life.

Joe

Or 4) Enforce the rules. If someone violates them, reprimand them.

The videos above should've been shown to the event organizers. They cant improve the experience for their customers if they dont know what's wrong. I've been the guy in the headphones on the pitwall and if the corner worker doesnt mention it, the organizers wont know.

Open passing DEs are awesome when you're out there with safe, respectful drivers. No more waiting for the next big straight to get by a slow car.

Unfortunately I can't seem to view the Mini video for some reason.
You need to use a recent version of QuickTime (>7.1).

What I do not understand is if you are not racing what do people do this? I am very polite on the track and always give a point by. I have an es for god sake I drive with my hand out the window on the straights. However, if some asshat did that to me I would probably lay a few tire rubs on their paint before I moved over. Maybe not, but I would think about it!

Because for some people who don't actually race, the DE is their race. I guess they're the racecar driver stuck in the body of a forever DE driver.

Many years ago at my first DE at Mid Ohio there was this asshat in an E36 M3 with all sorts of mods. Back then heavily modded M3's were not so common. Anyway, this guy catches me up and I'm simply waiting for the first passing spot to let him by. He's all over my ass, half diving here and there, inside, outside....looked like friggin' Days of Thunder in the rearview.

Later my instructor went over to him and asked him if he had his NASCAR license yet. He and his tard buddies laughed. Then my instructor told him that if did that any more we'd punt him. They didn't laugh that time.

The guy is a terminal tard too, he's been banned from many chapters events an suppoedly is still black listed from ever getting a BMW CR license. That same event the dumas gets black flagged. After a few laps of "missing" it he finally sees it at the front straight start stand. What does he do? He stops at the end of the front straight and heads up pit lane backwards! What a complete knob. This was B Group BTW.

I hear he's in the Genessee Valley area now. Shudder....

He stops at the end of the front straight and heads up pit lane backwards!

:eek::confused:eek:

After a brief conversation with someone much wiser than me, I've come to a conclusion that in the case of the Mini passing along the inside of the T6 Carousel, I could have easily prevented it.

How? By recognizing that there was a car behind me that _could_ pass me on the inside of that turn, given my "school" entry to the turn.

If we don't know someone's track manners, we should assume that person is an asshat, and protect our ourselves from the person's asshattery.

So in this case, I should have just taken a tighter entry to the turn, thus closing the door to the inside pass altogether. If he wanted to pass, he could try it on the outside, but I wouldn't give him any help in that endeavor.

Sure, my lap would be slightly slower, but these are good skills to develop -- mental awareness, controlling the situation, and practicing the less-than-ideal line.

Indeed, but the main purpose of hpde/noncompetitive sessions are to go fast on the line, not to defend against passes. That's the reason why divebombs aren't condoned even in "open track/passing". It's unfortunate if hpde drivers have to resort to "pass defense" to protect themselves against divebombs.

Indeed, but the main purpose of hpde/noncompetitive sessions are to go fast on the line, not to defend against passes. That's the reason why divebombs aren't condoned even in "open track/passing". It's unfortunate if hpde drivers have to resort to "pass defense" to protect themselves against divebombs.

Unfortunately, this "perfect" world you envision doesn't exist :)

Open passing is just that, "open". For 98% of the drivers out there, this is OK and they conduct themselves accordingly. But there will always be that 2% "asshat factor", and learning to cope with that is part of the learning experience. The vid of the T4 pass is a perfect example. Was the pass attempt ill-advised? Probably, especially given the much better opportunities literally right around the corner. Doesn't keep people from trying it, though. And the 325 driver was aware of that and dealt with the situation accordingly.

And, not to pick on you, but what you might think is a "divebomb" may in fact not be depending on the point of view of the parties involved. As shown, your view of what took place at T11 was 100% wrong.

As thenobot pointed out, driving the "school" line and "expecting" to point the car by in his area of choice doesn't necessarily work in an open passing environment. Open passing groups, where a pass can and will happen anywhere, are more than just being about "driving fast on the line". It's also about track awareness (and fellow participant awareness), and since there are no "passing zones" one now has to learn to think and set up a pass, and conversely learn to recognize where one might get passed or where a pass isn't such a good idea and what you can do about it (if anything). And sometimes you just have to learn to shake your head and mutter "Dude, that was dumb". It takes time to learn these things and to get comfortable in these situation - it wasn't all *that* long ago I was muttering "WTF?" constantly during my first open passing session :) - heck, I think I said that a few times last Sunday.

And the earlier talks about rules enforcement is a good one, although I tend to take a 1-on-1 approach. If I see something I thought was "questionable", I'll try to go talk to the driver, or in the case of the NASA events bring it up in the download session (maybe as a general comment, rather than directed at a particular driver). I think self-policing in these instances is as effective as anything else. And yes, if *I've* done something I thought was questionable, I'll go and apologize or see what the other person's view of it was.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. No worries if you decided to skip it :)

Unfortunately, this "perfect" world you envision doesn't exist :)

Open passing is just that, "open". For 98% of the drivers out there, this is OK and they conduct themselves accordingly. But there will always be that 2% "asshat factor", and learning to cope with that is part of the learning experience. The vid of the T4 pass is a perfect example. Was the pass attempt ill-advised? Probably, especially given the much better opportunities literally right around the corner. Doesn't keep people from trying it, though. And the 325 driver was aware of that and dealt with the situation accordingly.

And, not to pick on you, but what you might think is a "divebomb" may in fact not be depending on the point of view of the parties involved. As shown, your view of what took place at T11 was 100% wrong.

As thenobot pointed out, driving the "school" line and "expecting" to point the car by in his area of choice doesn't necessarily work in an open passing environment. Open passing groups, where a pass can and will happen anywhere, are more than just being about "driving fast on the line". It's also about track awareness (and fellow participant awareness), and since there are no "passing zones" one now has to learn to think and set up a pass, and conversely learn to recognize where one might get passed or where a pass isn't such a good idea and what you can do about it (if anything). And sometimes you just have to learn to shake your head and mutter "Dude, that was dumb". It takes time to learn these things and to get comfortable in these situation - it wasn't all *that* long ago I was muttering "WTF?" constantly during my first open passing session :) - heck, I think I said that a few times last Sunday.

And the earlier talks about rules enforcement is a good one, although I tend to take a 1-on-1 approach. If I see something I thought was "questionable", I'll try to go talk to the driver, or in the case of the NASA events bring it up in the download session (maybe as a general comment, rather than directed at a particular driver). I think self-policing in these instances is as effective as anything else. And yes, if *I've* done something I thought was questionable, I'll go and apologize or see what the other person's view of it was.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. No worries if you decided to skip it :)
Once again, these are all good points, especially there at the end. I should've added that in my late passes that I mentioned earlier, I did go apologize afterwards. In every case the person was very friendly and said they had expected me to go on through since they'd pointed me by already.

And the earlier talks about rules enforcement is a good one, although I tend to take a 1-on-1 approach. If I see something I thought was "questionable", I'll try to go talk to the driver, or in the case of the NASA events bring it up in the download session (maybe as a general comment, rather than directed at a particular driver). I think self-policing in these instances is as effective as anything else. And yes, if *I've* done something I thought was questionable, I'll go and apologize or see what the other person's view of it was.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. No worries if you decided to skip it :)

There are a lot of things the organizers wont catch, but with a good corner worker staff, they should deal with every incident they hear about in an appropriate way.

I've had great luck with approaching drivers in the paddock. Half the time they were looking for me to talk about the same thing, or they realize my point of view right away. And you're right, there is that 2% that you cannot get through to.

Betcha it was this clown http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8146
The guy tries to make a competition out of every HPDE he attends. He's been banned at at least one that I know of.
Car used to have orange wheels if not like the pics in the link.you're just sore because he told you to "baa-ring it!" and you couldn't. ;)

Sounds like a serious egomaniac to me, with a bad case of not being able to differentiate between 70 and 40.

The MINI drivers last post on that thread ... :eyecrazy
http://www.motoringunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8146&page=6

I'm off to try the new setup next weekend with TrackMasters and NASA at Thunderhill. And you know, any of you folks are welcome to come play with me. I won't hurt you . . . I promise.

If you're in the Novice Group, you can request me as your coach and if you agree to listen and learn, and if I see some good progress from you, in the afternoon I'll take you for a ride in Sad Arthur in the top group and show you things the Mini can do on a racetrack that will bug your eyes out. Gare-on-tee!

Cheers,
Sid

This guy is just plain annoying.


What a blowhard you are. But you are entitled to your opinion, whacko as it may be.


Hrmmmm. Another fella who can't read the sticker. Personally, I like my contact patch. If you want to try me, ba-ring it!

Ego maniac.:eyecrazy

"Do it! Bruce and Billy put on a good event. I did a few of their events last year but they're a little too tame for me. Besides, many of the drivers didn't especially care for me out braking and out turning their Ultimate Driving Machines."

Here's my take on the guy...

I was pitted next to him last year at Infineon with my "old" E30. I was cordial and commented on how nice his car looked. "I bet it handles pretty good." was another comment which was answered by, "Get behind me and you'll see how good it handles." Okaaaay whatever... I was in group B with an instructor. In the 2nd to last run of the day the Mini was about 5 car lengths back and was not making any ground. I had a passenger, he was alone. We got into slow traffic and the Mini was now on my bumper.
My instructor asked me to slow and let him pass, which I did. I then chased the Mini with my car at about 80%. His car was all over the road, lifting the rear tire and getting completely out of whack in almost every turn. My instructor was laughing and slapping his knees the whole time. After the session he did not return to the paddock and "hung out" at the hot pit with instructors. He never looked at me or said another word the rest of the weekend. I see him now and then but don't say anything. I simply pass him and keep going, lapping him at Thunderhill was particularly funny.

As an HPDE instructor, but not a racer, and as someone with some, but not extensive open track experience (<6 days), I feel that HPDE's would benefit from creating a continuum of driving experience (and rules) between traditional HPDE (points-bys in designated straights) and open track (passing anywhere).

The White Mountain Chapter sought to address this by creating a "passing clinic". If you attend the clinic and run an orange stripe, you can point another orange stripe car anywhere. (The original intention of not needing any point-by was struck down by CCA national rules and insurance requirements.) I like the orange stripe, although corner passing situations with two "authorized" cars doesn't actually come up that often -- maybe once or twice a day.

I've also run with Slowpokes in MN. Prior to this year, they ran "passing by contract", which is that if you know the other person (e.g. you are dicing with a friend) or believe that they intend to let you pass, you can pass anywhere without a point by, or you can point-by, of course. Because the group comprises a lot of the same close friends in similar cars, it seemed to work well. You might expect chaos, but it seemed fine. The only problem might be novices, which aren't supposed to attend. (It is a much looser organization that CCA, of course).

My point is that I think there is education to be had, outside of the CR school, to build experience and awareness with driving other than the 'round-n-'round on the DE line. Yes, you can practice off-line entry and leaving room at the apex, but it sure make mores sense if there is another car there. (Otherwise it is kind of like talking to yourself, no?) I would like this experience, even though I don't plan to race.

People have said that I should just start driving open track days. I like instructing, however, and I like the group of people I drive with. I think think that learning better track awareness and passing skills is relevant to HPDE's too. And it would inject some "freshness" into advanced and instructor run groups for those with a lot of track days.

BTW, I am not condoning or excusing violations of whatever rules the particular club runs. If I attend, I by-definition agree to follow their rules and etiquette. Unexpected passes are very dangerous.

<flame suit on> :flamethro:D

I like open passing in faster run groups. A few groups around here combine traditional point bys and limited passing zones in novice/intermediate with open passing in advanced. Seems to work out well. . . and indeed it seems the groups that are run more loose are safe.

This thread focuses on the dangers/annoyances of improper passing. . . my experience is that this is more of an irritation, and that most carnage at the track has little to do with an aggressive pass. More to do with an asshat deep in red mist who runs out of talent. Often when getting pressured by a faster car from behind, who decides to turn it up a notch past his talent level.

More to do with an asshat deep in red mist who runs out of talent. Often when getting pressured by a faster car from behind, who decides to turn it up a notch past his talent level.I agree that this is one of the big issues...and it's also one of the toughest to manage. It's easy for just about anyone to get "sucked into a corner" when following another car. And if you have an aggressive and/or egotistical driver, it's easy for them to get pushed by a faster car coming up from behind.

It takes a lot of discipline to to avoid those kinds of situations.

Emre

Heard the MINI guy rolled his car in turn 7 at Infineon (Sears Point) this past Saturday with NASA Norcal Time Trial.

"Word has it he dive bomb'd a Legends car into turn 7 (right turn) and bounced off the inside curb, flipping his MINI it on its lid, collapsing the passenger 'A' pillar/roof to the seat.
Oh, he clipped the Legends car rear bumper during his roll."

Darwin is indeed alive and well.

Well I hope he's okay and that he learned his lesson. I have run time trial with NASA and the group is very tight up here. FWIW dive bombing or even passing someone offline is not going to net you a fast track time. Most of the guys I know go out when there is no traffic and they can get a few clean runs.

I guess someone ba-rought it..

I think I remember this guy from his brief appearance at a GGC school.

I was going to say he has decision-making issues, but that's not the case. He's making decisions - just consistently the wrong ones.