I've always wanted to take my car to the big race track/road course, I've done auto_x events before and that is fun, but the big track is much more fun.

I had bilstein gruppe n on my car about 2 months before the track, and drive it daily with 550 front springs and 600 rear, the ride is less than enjoyable, but on the track it was amazing.

So I took it a step further after only 2 track days and purchased some sparco speeds (probably not the best race seat, but the price was alright) So after driving to school, just 13 miles there and back I'm not so sure I could get in and out of that seat everyday.

Is there anyone driving in fixed back race seats everyday? I'll eventually get a daily driver and use this as only a track car, but before I take these seats out, how much nicer is it to have raceseats on the track?

i rolled race seats for 2 years and loved them on the street and even more on the track or "spirited" driving....im also only 21 so maybe its the young and limber talking (sry)

::edit:: im only 5'7" 140 so its not tough for me either

Is there anyone driving in fixed back race seats everyday? I'll eventually get a daily driver and use this as only a track car, but before I take these seats out, how much nicer is it to have raceseats on the track?

I drive my '97 M3 daily (TC Kline SA coilovers 500#F/600#R, Treehouse LCABs, Recaro SPG and Kirk 4pt roll bar) and put approximately 250-300 miles on the car weekly. I haven't attended as many events this year and I would like to (3 so far), but I do drive it to and from the track. The combination of the Recaro SPG and 6pt Schroth harness is a night and day difference when compared to the stock Vaders and regular seatbelt.

I'm not a very big guy, so it's not hard for me to get in and out of the vehicle with the fixed back in the car (5'9" 140lbs). Honestly, if you don't like driving with the seats on the street, then just install them a few days prior to the event. Then, just take them out and put the Vader(s) back in once you get home from the event. I'm looking for a third vehicle shortly though since I don't see the need to use this car daily much longer. Good luck...

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

So I took it a step further after only 2 track days and purchased some sparco speeds (probably not the best race seat, but the price was alright) So after driving to school, just 13 miles there and back I'm not so sure I could get in and out of that seat everyday.I still think the classic Recaro SRD's the are best compromise for a street and track car. I've got them in my E30:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/anwarius/Recaro%20SRDs%20in%20the%20E30/DSCN0149.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/anwarius/Recaro%20SRDs%20in%20the%20E30/DSCN0152.jpg

They look great in Bimmers IMNSHO. They were the OEM seats that shipped with the E30 M3 Evo III, for example. They're easy to get into and out of, super comfortable on long highway drives, and they still do a good job of keeping you planted on the track. Just add a CG-Lock and you're good to go.

Emre

Sparco Evo2's, KW Variant 3 Coilovers with 800# springs, TCKline 4 point rollbar in my daily driver 95M3...

With an S50B32, 3.64 Diff and a 6 speed.

Don't be a wuss. :buttrock:buttrock:buttrock

Jonathan

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

thank you for that tid bit..hopefully going to get a kirk 4 point bar here before the next track day

all you track guys are so helpful and nice I love the track

ok brian i changed my mind...keep the seats

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/anwarius/Recaro%20SRDs%20in%20the%20E30/DSCN0152.jpg


this might be the sexiest thing i've ever seen

this might be the sexiest thing i've ever seenThanks :D

Those are actually the stock seats from this Lancer Evolution II GSR that belongs to my mechanic:

http://www.dentsport.com/gallery/d/2187-3/GT218.jpg

Emre

this might be the sexiest thing i've ever seen

they certainly caught my eye :cool

Before I put my bar in I had Recaro SRDs, very nice and pretty darn near the hold of a low end race seat. Running 500/550 GCs. I need stiffer springs now but the Konis cant take it.

It all depends how big you are ( 6 1", 245) how old you are ( 46 gasp) and how bad your back is ( bad).......:), that's why I still have my heavy ass heated luxury seats in mine. I am sure they will go someday, but only for some really cushy track seats....Bob

I DD with 550f/600r springs, TCK DA shocks and Cobra Imola seats. I think it's pretty comfortable, personally. I've takes several trips from Minneapolis to Milwaukee and back (350 miles each way, usually non-stop) in it this year without any complaints. It really doesn't ride any worse than my Miata did with stock springs and custom valved OEM Bilsteins.

The Vaders suck.

My DD is fairly stripped except for the heavy non-supporting vaders which Im currently trying to get rid of. I also have coilovers as well.

I'll be looking for some reclinable sport seats, why'd you go fixed back?

Did not daily drive my car with:

GC Adjustable Suspension with 440F/500R
Cobra Suzuka Gt Seats
Kirk Rollbar

but had a few multihour drives to WGI. When I did drive the car to work, ingress and egress was a pita if one had to do that repeatedly.

The above combination was tolerable for my 38 year old body for a max of 5 hours or 200-300 miles. By 4, one gets pretty stiff.

I no longer drive my car to the track. After my first 4 hour tow, I was amazed how much fresher I was at arrival. I probably arrived 60% fresher than driving the car itself.

^^^ Ditto to all of that, except the 38 part. :D

Getting in and out of a fixed back seat gets old and tedious fast. My car is still registered/insured for ripping around on nice days, but I wouldnt ever want to drive it daily.

They are supportive, but you cant really move around and pick a new spot when your ass gets sore. My car is also loud as hell with no sound deadening in the back. When I drove to the track, I kept the windows down so I wouldnt hear the drone.


It's been a really slow day, I need to get off bfc...

i daily drive with fixed backs, dosen't bother me much. it only does when it comes to parking since i have to have a lot of room around the door to open it all the way to get out of the seat.

but yeah you should get a rollbar if you plan to run racing seats at the track.

I have some fixed race seats in mine. with a roll bar and five point harness on both sides..its not bad for daily use. BUT I really don't drive mine much daily since I can walk to my business I only use the car to run errands..

If it was a true daily driver teh SRD's would be my choice. they look nice and work well.

It does make people "dam its a race car..." With no back seat its kinda hard to convice them its just a car ;)

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

What is the opinion on running fixed back seats in a m roadster (w/ roll hoops) for auto-x?

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

Could you please elaborate on this some more?

I drove for 6 hours in my brother's car which as a Sparco Pro2000 and it was fine. Getting in and out is a pain though...

Could you please elaborate on this some more?Stock car:
roll-over => roof collapses => seatbacks collapse => front seat occupants have a reasonable chance of survival.

Race seats + harnesses - roll protection:
roll-over => roof collapses => seatbacks can't collapse => front seat occupants have a poor chance of survival.

Emre

Not to get OT but what rollbar do you have in that E30 with the EVO seats?

Not to get OT but what rollbar do you have in that E30 with the EVO seats?The rollbar was custom made for me by a local race shop. It's welded to the chassis at 4 points; the mounting plates for the main hoop are boxed in on 3 sides each. The harness bar was set to the proper height for me. We moved the diagonal a bit toward the center-line and made the harness bar removable. That way, I can fold down the driver's seat and fit a full set of 225/50-R15 race tires in the backseat area.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/anwarius/Recaro%20SRDs%20in%20the%20E30/DSCN0153.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/anwarius/Recaro%20SRDs%20in%20the%20E30/DSCN0145.jpg

There's a little "too much" clearance between the top of the main hoop and the headliner. That's because I wanted to have the option to convert to a proper 6-point cage some time in the future. In order for the front of the cage to clear the sunroof rails, we had to lower the main hoop a bit. Now that I've decided to stick with a 4-point rollbar, I regret the decision! I would prefer the main hoop to fit tighter to the headliner.

Emre

Very nice looking setup.

What happens to your head if rear ended on the street?

my e30 m3 came with SRD's. They are pretty stiff, and the head rest is hard for sure. the problem with those seats in a car with a roll bar is that now you have recline able seats in a car with a bar. Which is no different then stock seats and a bar. in a wreck they will fold forward/back/w/e.

I run SPG profi's now but I put like 10 miles on the car in a week unless im going to the track.

the previous owner of my car flipped an e30 m3 end over end at thunderhill while in the SRD and one of those simple schroth 4 point kits. The roof by chance did not crush in where he was, but the passenger side did. It’s too risky without a bar. And with a bar, you need fixed back seats. its really an all or nothing game. And you can't say you've had no problem so far if you haven't had a wreck.

I think the biggest mistake is getting racing seats when they are un needed. if you've gone to the track twice you still have a lot to learn, and i doubt the seat is holding you back, or get something like the SRD but just use the 3 point belt, if your inclined to spend money.

Very nice looking setup.Thanks.

What happens to your head if rear ended on the street?My guess is you'd die. Even with high-density foam padding, I wouldn't want to bang my un-helmeted head against it.

Like all street-and-track cars, there's a compromise. This car sees most of it's use on the track, so it's biased towards track safety. However, unlike cars with full cages, I feel it's still reasonable to drive it on the street.

Of course, everyone must decide what risk profile is reasonable for themselves. In my case, I've never had an accident on the street. But I have had a couple of shunts on the track.

Emre

the problem with those seats in a car with a roll bar is that now you have recline able seats in a car with a bar. Which is no different then stock seats and a bar. in a wreck they will fold forward/back/w/e.That's why I have a seat-back brace on the way. I also run 3"-wide 6-point Willans NASCAR harnesses (the kind with the anti-sub straps that wrap around your thighs and mount behind you).

the previous owner of my car flipped an e30 m3 end over end at thunderhill while in the SRD and one of those simple schroth 4 point kits.The combination of 2"-wide 4-point tuner belts and reclining seats without seat-back braces is indeed a bit beyond my personal risk threshold.

Emre

I think there is a big misconception with stock vs. fixed back seats folding in an accident (my previous post):

"I have to agree with the above, I was having a conversation with my father...who is a car mechanic for the last 30yrs and specializes in MB. We were talking about seats and harness, blah, blah. So the conversation led to my father telling me that back in the day, about the 80's. A lot of cars were having seat problems with rear-end collisions. When the car was struck from behind, basically the seat frame/hinge would break and the seat would flop back. In worst-case scenarios, people were ejected out the rear window :eek:.

So at that time MB was one of the only companies really reinforcing the seat frames/hinges to prevent such failure. My father said when he took apart one and was looking at it, he said. "holy sh*t, that’s built like a tank". That point on, car companies started catching on and were applying the same technology.

So from this conclusion, I would wager that in almost any accident, the seat will never give way...so if you roll over and the roof comes down, the only thing that will help you is the stock seat belts. Since they allow you to slide.

Also he said in all his years he's never seen a car that’s had its roof "really" crushed, exception being racing. Nowadays roofs are usually reinforced pretty well."

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

The Porsche GT3 and the NSX-R come/came from the factory with fixed back racing shells and no extra roll over protection. I think the safety issue comes into play regarding the restraint system as both those car did not have harnesses, but were equipped with standard three-point system.

I added fixed-back Recaro Pole Positions in my sedan, but did quite a bit of research before putting them in. No one I asked could give me a conclusive and fact-based answers. So I decided to follow the OEs and use my fixed backs with the factory three-point belt system.

It is my only car at the moment, so you could consider it my daily driver. Ingress/egress isn't very dignified, but once getting into the seat, I would never go back to stock. Sitting in anything else now feels very awkward and uncomfortable. I think I found at least a 2 seconds at the track simply because I could concentrate on driving and because my placement was much more precise since I wasn't moving around in the seat.

Also very interesting is that the ergonomics of the Recaro PPs are much nicer to my back on long hauls than even my father's 14-way adjustable 7-Series comfort seats.

Drive Safely,
Raza

The Porsche GT3 and the NSX-R come/came from the factory with fixed back racing shells and no extra roll over protection. I think the safety issue comes into play regarding the restraint system as both those car did not have harnesses, but were equipped with standard three-point system.

I added fixed-back Recaro Pole Positions in my sedan, but did quite a bit of research before putting them in. No one I asked could give me a conclusive and fact-based answers. So I decided to follow the OEs and use my fixed backs with the factory three-point belt system.

It is my only car at the moment, so you could consider it my daily driver. Ingress/egress isn't very dignified, but once getting into the seat, I would never go back to stock. Sitting in anything else now feels very awkward and uncomfortable. I think I found at least a 2 seconds at the track simply because I could concentrate on driving and because my placement was much more precise since I wasn't moving around in the seat.

Also very interesting is that the ergonomics of the Recaro PPs are much nicer to my back on long hauls than even my father's 14-way adjustable 7-Series comfort seats.

Drive Safely,
Raza

Exactly, the safety issue is not in the seats, but the harness that you'll most likey have to use with them. Since the factory belts will let you lean over the passenger side in case of a rollover...were as a harness will keep you locked upright.

i'm very interested to know more about fixed back seats with a 3 point as well. I realize that much of the same performance can be had with a reclinable seat, but the weight savings is less noticable.

I always hear the stigma of never using the fixed back seats without roll over protection, but nobody can really ever provide a study of fixed back vs reclining seats in a roll over situation. I'm pretty sure that if you wreck bad enough to completely crush in the roof on your e36 or newer car that you're toast anyway.

I've also yet to see anything on showing a modern reclinable seat coming back and hitting a rear cage/roll bar during a rear end colision as well. I think at this point it may just be old logic that was once sound but now out of date (i.e. cross drilled brake rotors...and no, i'm not arguing that one here)

I've also yet to see anything on showing a modern reclinable seat coming back and hitting a rear cage/roll bar during a rear end colision as well.There was a senior instructor at one of the clubs I sometimes run with who died when he went backwards into the wall at high speed. His seat mounts broke and he broke his neck against his roll cage. A seat-back brace might have saved him.

This case is not exactly the same as a reclining seat collapsing, but it's close enough that we can probably learn a lesson from it. In fact, with reclining seats, the chances of this type of thing occurring are probably even greater.

Emre

please dont run fixed back race seats without at least a rollbar. Stock seats are made to fold in the event of a rollover. Fixed back seats will kill you.

respectfully disagree with this statement. I have spoked with TONS of racers/club instructers/ect. and the consensus is that they are safer than stock seats UNLESS you are running them with a harness and no bars.

Anyhow, to the OP, it really depends on what your tollerance is. I ran them for years (sparco evo 2) and wouldn't go back. My back hurt less on short and long trips, and was more fun to drive spirited as I was planted on the streets. (mind you there is no traffic where I live) Getting in and out wasn't an issue for me. I would say that I prob. have a higher tollerance for stuff like that than most tho.

Good Luck.

i'm very interested to know more about fixed back seats with a 3 point as well. I realize that much of the same performance can be had with a reclinable seat, but the weight savings is less noticable.

I always hear the stigma of never using the fixed back seats without roll over protection, but nobody can really ever provide a study of fixed back vs reclining seats in a roll over situation. I'm pretty sure that if you wreck bad enough to completely crush in the roof on your e36 or newer car that you're toast anyway.

I've also yet to see anything on showing a modern reclinable seat coming back and hitting a rear cage/roll bar during a rear end colision as well. I think at this point it may just be old logic that was once sound but now out of date (i.e. cross drilled brake rotors...and no, i'm not arguing that one here)


Don't forget the seats in street cars that CAN'T go backwards due to coupe, and the cars that COME FACTORY with fixed backs. If it was truly the point of having a 2 piece seat so that it can break then they wouldn't do it. The OBVIOUS reason why they did it is people like different angles which a fixed wouldn't give you.

Nobody ever mentions, what happens if you hit backwards, break the seat and then hit the front of your car and slid into the steering wheel area or just slide out from under the belt. I have seen in car videos of accidents with no belts and I would rather be in a fixed back any day of the week with a 3 point than not. :dunno (just for reference I saw 2 BMWs with broken seats in the junk yard I went to that had front and rear damage, don't know what the seats broke from)

Emre, while I understand your point I don't think it's valid for the argument because there's no way to tell if the stock seat was there, would the mounts have broken? Would the reclining mechanism have given way before the mounts? Would they both have held up to the crash? No way to know for sure. RustBucket, I appreciate your responses as well.

I created a new thread about my questions so that I can stop thread-jacking the OP here.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=842336

Emre, while I understand your point I don't think it's valid for the argument because there's no way to tell if the stock seat was there, would the mounts have broken? Would the reclining mechanism have given way before the mounts? Would they both have held up to the crash? No way to know for sure.You are correct, of course. We can't know for sure. However, it's clear that seat mounting bolts generally hold up to far stronger loads than do reclining seat-backs. It's reasonable to assume that any force great enough to shear hardened seat mounting bolts would be more than enough to collapse a reclining seat-back.

The lesson to be learned from the event I referred to, I think, is that a seat-back brace is a good idea once you have a roll-bar or cage in the car. Doesn't matter whether the seat is reclining or fixed-back.

As a further point of reference, NASCAR guys always seem to be ahead of the curve vis-à-vis safety equipment. They were among the first to adopt the HANS device, head restraints, window nets, etc. They have been moving to cradle-style 6-point harnesses in which the anti-sub straps wrap around the thighs and mount behind the driver (fighter pilot style). And they all run seat-back braces.

Emre

What is the opinion on running fixed back seats in a m roadster (w/ roll hoops) for auto-x?

You could just cut seat grommets in the stock M seat and use 4-points for autocross. You'll need a harness bar, of course. I run this setup on the track (Speedware harness bar, not sure if it fits a roadster, plus Schroth Profi 2 lap belts hooked into the pretensioner, with ASM for passenger and HANS for driver.) I kept the 3-point for the street. Perhaps the best compromise for me personally.

This seat is not as supportive as a full race bucket, but is plenty supportive. I do brace in high-g sliding turns (e.g. Outer loop and Toe at the Glen), which I wouldn't do in a full race bucket, but I don't think I'd be faster by more than a tenth or two at the track.

A real bucket with straight-sided boulsters would be a huge drag on the street, at least for me, and I'm not sure the sweat looking Recaros would be much better than stock (except that stock seats are leather) as the stock seat is pretty darn supportive.

Emre, when you mention a seat back brace, are you referring to the net that generally runs from the right of the seat to the dash? If so I've seen quite a few people adopting them.

I'm not sure the sweet looking Recaros would be much better than stock (except that stock seats are leather) as the stock seat is pretty darn supportive.Are you talking about the Recaro SRD's I posted about on Page 1 of this thread? I'll tell you, they are MUCH more supportive than any BMW seat. If you compare them to the OEM Recaro sport seats in an E30, the Vaders in the E36 M3, the stock seats in a Z3 M-Coupe, or the stock seats in a 996 Carerra, it's "no contest" on all counts.

The SRD's grip about as well as most low-end fiberglass bucket seats. You really don't need anything better unless you're running a hardcore track car. Even with the TMS "J-Stock" suspension, massive Ireland Engineering swaybars, and shaved 225/50-R15 Toyo RA-1's on my car, the SRD's keep me planted on the track.

Emre

Emre, when you mention a seat back brace, are you referring to the net that generally runs from the right of the seat to the dash? If so I've seen quite a few people adopting them.No. That's a head restraint. A seat-back brace is a bar that extends from the harness bar to the back of the seat. You can either weld/bolt the brace to the seat (if it's made of aluminum or other rigid material) or weld a bar to the brace and tuck it tight against the seat-back. Let me see if I can dig up some pics.

EDITED. Here you go:

http://www.ioportracing.com/images/product/sbb15.jpg http://www.ioportracing.com/images/seatbracesbb15.jpg

EDITED AGAIN. Here's a better pic:

http://www.ioportracing.com/images/product/asb15.gif

Emre