I hope this, and the following are not a total stupid questions.

Has anyone successfully dropped the torque converter to drain it?

Has anyone successfully performed a flush using the radiator cooler line?

Thank you for the help!
Jason

Jason,

I've wondered about using the tranny cooler line to do a flush as well. it's common on volvos, and since it uses the stock pump, under stock pressure, i don't worry about screwing up anything like those who do the "power flush" with a unit at a shop (BAD IDEA).

I'm probably going to attempt this on the 540 once i get a bit more time (another 2 months).

Let me know if you find anything else.

Evan

I have wondered ther same thing about using the tranny rad lines to do this job--would probally be the thing to try when you had the front of the car down for a cooling system overhaul--so you would be able to get to the lines with out a lot of hassle

Jason,

I've wondered about using the tranny cooler line to do a flush as well. it's common on volvos, and since it uses the stock pump, under stock pressure, i don't worry about screwing up anything like those who do the "power flush" with a unit at a shop (BAD IDEA).

I'm probably going to attempt this on the 540 once i get a bit more time (another 2 months).

Let me know if you find anything else.

Evan

Hey Evan!
Thanks for the reply!
Please let me know how you go about doing this procedure...
I need to investigate and figure out which radiator cooler line to hook into.
I was just hoping to find someone that has actually done this...

I am wondering if I would be OK just draining what is in the pan, and drain a couple more times to get the old ATF out of the torque converter???

What fluid are you going to use?


I have wondered ther same thing about using the tranny rad lines to do this job--would probally be the thing to try when you had the front of the car down for a cooling system overhaul--so you would be able to get to the lines with out a lot of hassle

Hey Mr. Poolman!
Good to hear from you again!

I can't remember which process you did for replacing the tranny fluid...
Did you just drain the pan and replaced the filter and gaskets?
Thanks again for all your expertise!!!
Jason

I've not done it on a BMW. But...here's the deal. The cooling lines that go to the cooler - one goes in, the other goes out. So it really doesn't matter which one you disconnect (i suppose if you choose the "wrong" one, the fluid in the cooler doesn't get changed), as the pump will either be pumping it directly out of the transmission (prior to the cooler) or pumping it out after its been through the cooler (in which case you get more fluid changed). But i'm willing to be there's only about a quart or so in the cooler, and by doing this type of flush, when i do it on volvo's, i use about 12 quarts of fluid. (they hold about 7). So, there is truly no old fluid left in the tranny or torque converter. That's why i prefer this method.

I have not decided which fluid to use. I have the ZF 5-speed, and will probably stick with the stock fluid, in VW-guise, unless i hear of a confirmed report with extended mileage using Mobil 1 ATF or Amsoil ATF (my two preferred brands).

I think this process will require some figuring out, and when i have to pull the radiator to replace it (my new zionsville unit is leaking), i will probably do the tranny fluid as well, as i'm at 70k miles.

Please note that even if you swap all fluid, it still does not take place of dropping the pan and cleaning the magnets, and changing the filter.

In my attempts to change the fluid from "up-top", here's my procedure.

Drop pan, change filter, clean, and refill with fluid, including warm-up, and so forth.

Go up top, disconnect hoses, and see if there is an adapter than can be made to fill the tranny from one of the cooling lines (though this, obviously, would have to be the return line to the tranny after the cooler). Then, in a carefully measured container, insert flexible line into container. Pump fluid out (i never pump out more than two quarts at a time - an assistant can be helpful). Then refill with that exact amount of fluid. Repeat, until you are satisfied with the color of the fluid coming out of the tranny, and have gone through at least the full capacity of the transmission, but preferably 1.5x's its rated capacity.

It's kinda involved, it's long, but, it is thorough. And knowing that a good 1/2 day's work could save me a major repair bill, well, i think it's worth it.

Hope that helps some. And please note, i've not done this yet. I'm merely gathering my thoughts and information so that i *can* do it, at which point i'll write it up.

Evan

If we are just in the "thought gathering" stage. I have thought this one through a bit... feel free to start shooting.

Get a sealable 1 or 2 gallon container that has two NPT ports on it (one on top, one on bottom). Use whatever fittings/hose is necessary to connect to the tranny lines.. output from tranny goes in top, return to tranny goes to the bottom of the container. Fill container with $150 worth of Exxon/Esso to within an inch of the top. Get a thick plastic bag that is at least a few gallons and put it on top of the fluid so that when you put the top of the bucket back on, you are creating a barrier between the new fluid and whatever come in the top (leave bag gathered up inside to expand the full volume of the bucket). Seal it up and start the car. In theory, the old fluid will fill the top of the bucket, and will start squeezing the new fluid out the bottom as the bag fills. Since you have no way of knowing how long it will take to exchange old for new, without some sort of sight glass this may be a bit messy.

This is how the (very expensive) machine at my bro-in-law's shop works... only problem is that it is in Georgia and the machine would contaminate our fluid with regular ATF since cleaning all the ATF out of it would be pretty expensive.

Hey Jason-When I changed the fluid I drained and refilled twice-(moderate amount of driving between changes). After the secound change-drove another couple of miles and then pulled the pan and changed the filter and refilled the third time. Doing it that way put less contamination back into the filter-the filter is made of somekind of mesh media-not just a screen as in most trannies-in another words it trapps more trash.
Hope that helped
Poolman

Capn.... i like that idea a lot. Hmm. that would be ideal. Now...to get it to function. hmm. I'll ask my buddy who's a fabricator this weekend. Sounds like something he'd enjoy doing.

Evan

I had to fab a part to fit in my 960 Volvo to go into the rad for me to change fluid the way your thinking. I changed the fluid out many times like that over it's 270k mile life.I have pondered the same for my 525i for some time now. I'll be checking the fittings out when I start my cooling system overhaul-will post back with what all afterwards.
Poolman

yeah, but the 960's are easy to add via the dipstick :-) that's how i do the changes on the '92 965 in the stable (200k++)

We'll hafta figure out this bmw issue. too easy not to solve.

I've not done it on a BMW. But...here's the deal. The cooling lines that go to the cooler - one goes in, the other goes out. So it really doesn't matter which one you disconnect (i suppose if you choose the "wrong" one, the fluid in the cooler doesn't get changed), as the pump will either be pumping it directly out of the transmission (prior to the cooler) or pumping it out after its been through the cooler (in which case you get more fluid changed). But i'm willing to be there's only about a quart or so in the cooler, and by doing this type of flush, when i do it on volvo's, i use about 12 quarts of fluid. (they hold about 7). So, there is truly no old fluid left in the tranny or torque converter. That's why i prefer this method.

I have not decided which fluid to use. I have the ZF 5-speed, and will probably stick with the stock fluid, in VW-guise, unless i hear of a confirmed report with extended mileage using Mobil 1 ATF or Amsoil ATF (my two preferred brands).

I think this process will require some figuring out, and when i have to pull the radiator to replace it (my new zionsville unit is leaking), i will probably do the tranny fluid as well, as i'm at 70k miles.

Please note that even if you swap all fluid, it still does not take place of dropping the pan and cleaning the magnets, and changing the filter.

In my attempts to change the fluid from "up-top", here's my procedure.

Drop pan, change filter, clean, and refill with fluid, including warm-up, and so forth.

Go up top, disconnect hoses, and see if there is an adapter than can be made to fill the tranny from one of the cooling lines (though this, obviously, would have to be the return line to the tranny after the cooler). Then, in a carefully measured container, insert flexible line into container. Pump fluid out (i never pump out more than two quarts at a time - an assistant can be helpful). Then refill with that exact amount of fluid. Repeat, until you are satisfied with the color of the fluid coming out of the tranny, and have gone through at least the full capacity of the transmission, but preferably 1.5x's its rated capacity.

It's kinda involved, it's long, but, it is thorough. And knowing that a good 1/2 day's work could save me a major repair bill, well, i think it's worth it.

Hope that helps some. And please note, i've not done this yet. I'm merely gathering my thoughts and information so that i *can* do it, at which point i'll write it up.

Evan
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Package sizes include:
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1-Gallon Bottle
1-Gallon Bottle (case of 4)
2.5-Gallon Bottle
2.5-Gallon Bottles (case of 2)
30-Gallon Drum
55-Gallon Drum
Transmission Fluid Evacuation Service:
Bulletin From Filters Manufacturers Council (https://www.amsoil.com/lit/filter_man_council01.pdf) (16k PDF)
ATF and Transmission Filter Change Procedures (https://www.amsoil.com/faqs/ATF_and_Filter_Change_Procedures.pdf) (45k PDF)
AMSOIL Transmission fluid recommendations for Cars and Light Duty Trucks (https://www.amsoil.com/products/transmission/transfluid_rec.aspx)
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AMSOIL ATF resists thermal and oxidative degradation better than conventional transmission fluids, protecting clutches, planetary gears, valves, pumps and seals from damaging sludge and varnish deposits. AMSOIL ATF helps prevent component overheating and ensures cooler, smoother transmission operation.
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Ford MERCON®, MERCON® V & SP
Chrysler ATF+ through ATF+4®
Honda Z-1 (Not for use in CVT transmissions)
Toyota Type T and T-IV
Mitsubishi/Hyundai Diamond SP II & III
Allison C-3, C-4
Caterpillar TO-2
Voith G607, G1363
ZF TE-ML 14A, 14B, 14C
Mercedes Benz 236.1, 236.2, 236.6, 236.7, 236.9
BMW 7045E<LI class=style1>NAG 1 & 2
JWS 3309
LT 71141 (ESSO)
Nissan Matic D, J & K
Vickers I-286S & M-2950S Excellent for power steering units that use ATF.
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172
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11.0
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BMW Transmission Chart Reference (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/BMW-Transmission-Chart.pdf)
Valvoline Letter / Valvoline Mercon V ATF => ESSO LT 71141 (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/ValvolineMerconVATFLetter.pdf)
Quaker State Multi-Vehicle ATF => ESSO LT 71141 (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/QuakerState-MultiVehicleATF.pdf)
Amsoil Synthetic Universal ATF => ESSO LT 71141 (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/Amsoil-Synthetic-Universal-ATF.jpg)
Other BMW owners have also used Redline D4 ATF Fluid sucessfully
ESSO LT 71141 Specs (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/ESSOSpecs.pdf)
ZF Oil Reference Guide (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/ZFOilReferenceGuide.pdf)
ZF 5HP19 Transmission Document (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/ZF5HP19.pdf)
ZF 5HP19 Exploded View (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/ZF5HP19FL_ExplodedView.pdf)

Parts needed:
ATF Fluid:
(Valvoline Mercon V ATF $3.99 quart at your local car store)
ZF5HP Capacity is 8.7 L / 9.2 qt without torque converter 6.1 L / 6.4 qt)
ESSO Fluid P/N:
(optional) (83-22-9-407-807)
Filter P/N:
(24-34-1-423-376 or 24-34-1-423-376-M103 ZF motor / FILTRAN Recommended)
Pan Gasket P/N:
(24-10-1-423-380 or 24-10-1-423-380-M30)
Drain Plug P/N:
( 24-11-7-507-555 or 24-11-7-507-555-BOE)
T-27 Bolts P/N:
(24-10-1-423-273 - Extras in case stripped during the ATF change)
Loctite Blue $6 (for the pan bolts) (http://www.bimmerinfo.com/files/e46trans/loctiteblue.jpg)

Tools Needed:
8mm Allen Bit Socket - Need stubby due to tight constraints (Fill Plug) (30 Nm / 22 ft-lb)
6mm Allen Bit Socket - (Drain Plug) (35 Nm / 26 ft-lb)
T-27 Socket Bit & T-27 Screw Driver Bit (Drain Pain & Oil Filter) (6-7 Nm / 4 ft-lb)

Suggestions:
* Insure the FILL plug can be removed, otherwise if have drained the ATF, you are in trouble.
* Leave 4-5 Torx Bolts holding up the the drain pan if you are doing this by yourself.
* Tightnen Torx Bolts use blue loctite. Tighten one after the other, not star pattern.

Jason

Has anyone successfully performed a flush using the radiator cooler line?


Yes, I have. I do it on most all of my vehicles.

What I have is a molded hose that does a 90 at the end and I always get the return after the radiator (or external cooler).

Why?

So that cooler gets flushed as well.

The hose with the bend goes into a large rectangular tub that I have a bunch of so it collects it all without splashing, and I can see the fluid get clear.

Get about 3 quarts more than what the whole system calls for, and run about 1 or 2 quarts through to make sure it is all flushed well.

I won't get into the procedure too much, but basically have someone in the vehicle ready to turn the car on and off every once in a while as you have to be able to top the thing off every once in a while. Thanks to ZF and BMW, you do not have a dipstick/fill tube.

SO, you have to set something up for this. I use a clear hose that goes into the fill/check hole, that runs up into a funnel.

So, if you have a THIRD person to fill while you watch everything, that would be good.

How many people do I need when I do this to my Lincoln, Chrysler, Range Rover (older ZF)?

ONE

What a PITA this is with a BMW...

OH, and I have used Redline D4 with what appears to be success...

I just refilled and drained twice and was done with it. I used Mobil 1 Universal synthetic ATF in my ZF Auto. Runs great for some time now.

I just refilled and drained twice and was done with it. I used Mobil 1 Universal synthetic ATF in my ZF Auto. Runs great for some time now.

Yep, probably good enough.

Glad to get the feedback on the Mobil 1 Universal, as it is about half the cost of Redline... Mobil claims it supports the Esso whatever the number is that ZF specs for replacement that costs a small home equity loan extension to refill the trans...:alright

Yes, I have. I do it on most all of my vehicles.

What I have is a molded hose that does a 90 at the end and I always get the return after the radiator (or external cooler).

Why?

So that cooler gets flushed as well.

The hose with the bend goes into a large rectangular tub that I have a bunch of so it collects it all without splashing, and I can see the fluid get clear.

Get about 3 quarts more than what the whole system calls for, and run about 1 or 2 quarts through to make sure it is all flushed well.

I won't get into the procedure too much, but basically have someone in the vehicle ready to turn the car on and off every once in a while as you have to be able to top the thing off every once in a while. Thanks to ZF and BMW, you do not have a dipstick/fill tube.

SO, you have to set something up for this. I use a clear hose that goes into the fill/check hole, that runs up into a funnel.

So, if you have a THIRD person to fill while you watch everything, that would be good.

How many people do I need when I do this to my Lincoln, Chrysler, Range Rover (older ZF)?

ONE

What a PITA this is with a BMW...

OH, and I have used Redline D4 with what appears to be success...

Could you please post some pictures of the hoses and maybe some of the procedure?
Where did you find the hoses at?
Thanks!
Jason

Yep, probably good enough.

Glad to get the feedback on the Mobil 1 Universal, as it is about half the cost of Redline... Mobil claims it supports the Esso whatever the number is that ZF specs for replacement that costs a small home equity loan extension to refill the trans...:alright

Thanks. I was going to use the AMS but it's not as widely available in stores. I also experienced much better fuel economy (about 10%) and much less parasitic drag. The funny thing is, not i can drive much more "spirited" and my fuel needle moves as slow as it did when i drove it no not exceed 2K on the tachometer.

I also went through alot and i mean ALOT of research and phone conversations with transmission builders about this and they all concurred that a ZF tranny can and in fact does run just fine on a synthetic dexron/mercon fluid like Mobil 1. My runs much much better then with the esso crap. It shifts so much crisper. Almost like i had a very mild shift kit put it.

Could you please post some pictures of the hoses and maybe some of the procedure?
Where did you find the hoses at?
Thanks!
Jason

I don't have pictures, and won't be doing the job for another 40 - 60K...

To get the hoses, I went into my spare hose bin, but here is what they are:

-For the drain hose (I have used this for power steering flushes as well) it is just a 3/8 or 1/2 black heater hose about 1.5 foot long with a 90 degree bend on it. It was an extra one from my 260 Mercruiser boat engine when I replaced all the hoses.

-For the fill hose, I have a length of larger clear tubing that fits in the hole made when you remove the fill/level check plug. You could probably get it from an aquarium supply house - it is about 1/2 o.d. It fits in there nicely stays in, and still allows the fluid to drain out when it gets filled. I use a small funnel and force it in the end. The hose is snaked down the side of the engine compartment near the exhaust to the fill point. That way, my son can fill the trans by the front right tire, while I manage all the BS that BMW makes us go through while topping off while the engine is running on jack stands, warming up.

It takes about 3 - 4 quarts after you top off the trans when not running, cold to reach the filled condition when running, slightly warmed up.

Remember to put the fill plug in before shutting the engine down.

Also remember on the steptronic, the fill plug is in the aft position on the passenger side, just above the gasket area.