When getting into the sport of autox, I told myself "limit yourself to what you need for the car". Well as most of you could expect, that limit was far exceeded. However, one thing that I will not allow myself to skimp on (to a limit) is safety. I do not plan on racing this car anytime soon. It is primarily prepped for street/track use.

The 6pt cage in question....
http://www.ioportracing.com/images/product/rc-boltin.jpg

So, will this roll bar be sufficient if welded in properly in the event of a roll over? After seeing Jay Hudson's car (hope you dont mind Jay) after the incident with T-8, I'm convinced that some over head protection is needed. I know this would help very little with side impact, but I feel that starting somewhere is essential.

I would love to go the custom route with a TC design, or other reputable cage builder, but the car doesn't exactly come first in priorities while still in college.

Also, for the frequent "SEARCH!" posters I have read up on all the recent literature on the matter. I'm hoping for some hands on advice with my situation.

Thanks very much.

btw: If you can suggest any other routes to go, or advice for someone who's been in my situation, Id love to hear it. :)

Not all Tony cages are strut to strut chromoly. I bet he could do a simple 6pt like that out of mild steel for a very reasonable price. Strip your car to keep labor down, and I think you'll find that you can get a much better product for just a bit more money.

If it's going to be driven on the street I wouldn't go with a roll cage, just a roll bar.

Safer than no cage, not as safe as a good custom cage.

Honestly, if I were going to do an Autopower cage or rollbar, I would increase the size of the mounting plates....they tend to be on a small size. If you are still driving the car on the street, go for a custom built or quality rollbar instead of the expense and problems of a full cage.

A cage or bar on the street can be more dangerous, depending on how it's located... since you're not wearing a helmet... SFI padding is meant to cushion a helmeted head, not a bare one...

A fellow BMWCCA instructor and Club Racer here in Atlanta rolled his 97M3 with an Autopower cage in the esses at Road Atlanta a few years back and pretty much destroyed his left ankle because there wasn't sufficient footwell protection and he had a left front quarter panel hit which invaded the footwell.

I'm not saying DONT do it, but I don't think it's enough for racing. For a street car, don't do it. Get a 4 point rollbar and be done with it.

J

If youre near Tony, have him fabricate the rear half for you. If things progress as they usually do, you'll end up wanting a full cage fairly soon down the road.

It'd be easy to "add" the front half to an existing rear half that is already built very well.

Check w/ JKuper, he recently did a custom rear half.

For the money of the Autopower 6-point, you could probably get a very nice custom 4-point roll bar (think of it as the rear half of a 6-point) that would be more than adequate (and as others have said, probably safer) than a 6-point for DE and street use.

However, for added protection, I'd invest in some fixed back seats (if you don't already have some) that would protect your head in a street collision.

Main problem with the bolt-ins is that the tolerances relative to the body/chassis aren't very tight. They usually leave too much room and can be positioned poorly. A custom 4-point can be tailored to your car, and even set back a little farther to give you a little more margin on the street.

If you are only going to do autox, don't get anything. You don't need it. If you have the potential for roll-over or impact then I would autox with another organization. You shouldn't be carrying that much speed.

Now, if you have eyes towards the future and you are going to do DE's then by all means protect yourself and your instructor.

+1 on the custom roll bar vs. autopower 6pt.

K

If you are only going to do autox, don't get anything. You don't need it. If you have the potential for roll-over or impact then I would autox with another organization. You shouldn't be carrying that much speed.

Now, if you have eyes towards the future and you are going to do DE's then by all means protect yourself and your instructor.

+1 on the custom roll bar vs. autopower 6pt.

K

He's already doing DEs and is reasonably fast.

Tell you what, man. You can buy my HMS (TCKline Designed) Bolt in roll bar when I take the car to Tony for a full cage :)

Safer than no cage, not as safe as a good custom cage.

Honestly, if I were going to do an Autopower cage or rollbar, I would increase the size of the mounting plates....they tend to be on a small size. If you are still driving the car on the street, go for a custom built

For the few bolt-in bars and cages I have installed, I weld 1/8" reinforcing plates to the floor and up the rocker just as if I were welding in a cage. This greatly decreases the chance of a corner of a bolt-in foot plate or backup plate piercing the chassis. For driving school use, I don't see anything wrong with a bolt in Autopower cage if you reinforce the mounting points.

I would recomend that we do a rear section in your car and then you can complete it to a fullcage down the road. Or we could build you a simplier cage than what we normally build. If you do go the bolt in route PLEASE make sure to add extra material to the mounting locations.

-tony

He's already doing DEs and is reasonably fast.

Tell you what, man. You can buy my HMS (TCKline Designed) Bolt in roll bar when I take the car to Tony for a full cage :)Still need a lot more time to catch you! :)

Thanks for all the great, and timely responses guys. I probably should have explained myself a little better when it comes to the roll over fears. After seeing Jays car at the track, i noticed that his roof was being held together by the cage (if memory serves me right) and this is what has got me thinking about all this. In the event of a roll wouldn't the roof still be subject to caving in given the right speed, angles etc even with a nicely dont 4pt?

I'm not an engineer, but I just can't stop thinking that a 4pt would just not suffice.

I would recomend that we do a rear section in your car and then you can complete it to a fullcage down the road. Or we could build you a simplier cage than what we normally build. If you do go the bolt in route PLEASE make sure to add extra material to the mounting locations.

-tony
I would definitely not cut corners if I went the bolt in route. A part of me says not to go that route given all the horror stories of the Autopower. I may give you a ring when the time arises...until than I'm gonna explore all options.

In the mean time, do you have any pictures of a custom 4pt that you could share with us?

Im prepping my car for a custom welded cage. See sig pic :D

A 4 pt bolt in roll bar is better than nothing. I have a kirk.

A bolt in cage is better than a 4 pt bar.

A welded in, bolt in cage is better than a bolt in in.

Nothing is as good as a custom weld in cage or bar.

On a budget if I were to do do it over again, Id go with a custom weld in rollbar, to which a front section can be added and be legal for a racing class you may want to run in in the future.

Im skipping the inbetween stuff and going full custom to meet BMWCCA IP rules.

I would definitely not cut corners if I went the bolt in route. A part of me says not to go that route given all the horror stories of the Autopower. I may give you a ring when the time arises...until than I'm gonna explore all options.

In the mean time, do you have any pictures of a custom 4pt that you could share with us?

I agree, I had a 6pt. Autopower in my golf, and i can tell you first hand that it was crap. Alot of modification should be carried out in order to get it where you want it, even then it looks like crap the way the sections come together. Never had any incidents though, so i cant attest to its strength, but in retrospect I doubt it would help much in anything but a rollover.

Bolt in cages usually require a fair amount of welding as well for the reinforcement plates etc. So usually you are not a whole lot cheaper than a custom welded cage of similar dimensions. At least over here :)

Until you go all the way, you are going to be looking at a lot of different trade off’s.

The best way to go is a custom cage. But if you are not at a point where this is an option and you really feel the need to install some sort of cage/bar I’d recommend having a custom 4 point cage installed (as others have suggested) and fixed back seat and a 5/6 point harness. The bolt-in cages that I’ve seen (and the one I had) aren’t really worth the money and/or effort IMO. However, they are better than nothing.

The trade off with the 4 pt., is a lack of front and side protection. You just need to be aware you are not out there running in a fully built car and drive accordingly.

When you do get to the point where you build a full cage, be sure you have a 6 point plus 2 (foot well) with a dash bar. Make sure you have all your bars well triangulated. Which is the problem I have with the image of the cage you’ve posted. The translation on that cage is piss poor. None of the bars appear to line up with each other and that will not be a good thing if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need the cage to protect you.

You are in a tough spot. We all want to have safe cars. But it may be a good idea to just be safe until you can build your car all the way. A stock seat, shoulder belt and crumple zones are a lot safer (in many ways) over a half built race car.

That offer of a used TCK bolt-in roll bar is a good one. This is one of the best fitting roll bars for the E36, with excellent workmanship. It offers decent rollover protection—subject, obviously, to the compromises inherent in a half-cage—while keeping your car usable on the street and allowing for secure harness mounting.

The Autopower E36 roll bars/cages I've seen in the past are a very sloppy fit to the car. Unless they've improved on them since then I wouldn't consider one.

Neil
96 M3 - TCK roll bar

had an auto power in my E30 318. Pierced thourgh the floor when I rolled it at Watkins. Sweet. The TC bar is nice, had one in my E36. Never rolled it. But I like my 20 point cage the best!
As far as 4 or 6 point: Your going to hurt yourself BADLY with side impact on a street hit with a 6 point. Just don't do it. I hate seeing people drive their race cars to the track. Think about where a 4 point is in relation to your seating position. Directley behind you. Let the roof cave in, your steering wheel is replaceable. It will protect what isn't replaceable. Spend extra now, do a welded in rear. You'll end up throwing the autopower in the trash once you get serious anyways.

Phil, you need a black band around your photo sorta like the police or fireman do to their badges! How's the neck?

I have a bolt in rear bar in mine, after a brown pants moment at barber over the hill sideways;)... decided I needed something safer... Now with the turbo I find myself saying..I need something even safer...The faster I go on track the more I "feel" I need more protection...

I use mine as a street/track/toy car...The only downside to a full cage is you do increase the chance you may hit the head on a bar. I use the five point harness all the time which probably isn't the best thing for a street application. Since they don't have the inertia real of a stock seat belt..BUT they do keep me from hitting bars...

I have seen only one car with a really really nice integrated full roll cage. It was so integrated you could not see the front half of the cage. It was a work of art. After seein it if I do a cage I plan to do mien the same way. The down side is it cos the guy a butt load of money. The upside it was totally trick!!

If you don't have a good seat and harness add those to the list to...

Phil, you need a black band around your photo sorta like the police or fireman do to their badges! How's the neck?

I can look both ways! The head is hurting less everyday and my doc said go for it. Gotta love cages and saftey gear! Schroth rules! My car was a giant black band. :stickoutt

As far as 4 or 6 point: Your going to hurt yourself BADLY with side impact on a street hit with a 6 point. Just don't do it.

Can you please explain this more? Is it because of a lack of helmet (on street) and the A-pillar down bars? Or something to do with the door bars? TIA!

Well this adds a whole bunch more food for thought, thanks guys!

More of an articulate overview of my car's inside.

Typical Manual Vader's
4pt Shroth quick fit harness's.

And what I'd like to have for the track.

Hans device
Some form of over head protection
Fixed back seats


Also for any street driven m3's, I'd like to have the interior intact after this. I've got a buddy who has this done very nicely in his m3. Is my best bet to strip the carpet, front seats and back seats than put back together when finished? And is there any adhesive that would work for reapplying carpet?

Thanks a bunch guys

Cheers

-Andrew

I would recomend that we do a rear section in your car and then you can complete it to a fullcage down the road. Or we could build you a simplier cage than what we normally build. If you do go the bolt in route PLEASE make sure to add extra material to the mounting locations.

-tony

That's exactly what I am doing right now. Thanks for bringing that up:buttrock

Can you please explain this more? Is it because of a lack of helmet (on street) and the A-pillar down bars? Or something to do with the door bars? TIA!

Your head in a side collision is going to bounce of the A pillar bar where it goes back to meet the B pillar/ main hoop. I'm not even going to bring up the amount of pain you'll be in when your knobby knee smacks off the bars. IT HURTS!

Also for any street driven m3's, I'd like to have the interior intact after this. I've got a buddy who has this done very nicely in his m3. Is my best bet to strip the carpet, front seats and back seats than put back together when finished? And is there any adhesive that would work for reapplying carpet?-Andrew

The carpet isn't glued down and won't need to be stripped out for a rear roll bar installation. You take out both front seats, the rear seat bottom cushion and the rear corner cushions. The rear fold-down seat backs can stay in place.

You then untuck the carpet from the rear seat pan and from under the door sill trims (they don't have to be removed either) and fold it forward. Here's a pic of mine during installation (I have lots more); note super special hi-tech bungee cord carpet retainer tool! You can see the legs and mounting feet of the roll bar's main hoop. The removable diagonal brace/crossbar is uninstalled in this photo, but the lower seat cushion is back in place.

Neil
96 M3

Your head in a side collision is going to bounce of the A pillar bar where it goes back to meet the B pillar/ main hoop. I'm not even going to bring up the amount of pain you'll be in when your knobby knee smacks off the bars. IT HURTS!

Thanks. I understand the additional head injury risk since you won't have a helmet on while driving on the street to protect from the A pillar bar where it goes back to meet the B pillar/ main hoop. But am I missing something because why would the risk of injury to your "knobby knee" from a side collision be higher on the street vs. on the track? Unless you wear knee pads while driving on the track?

The carpet isn't glued down and won't need to be stripped out for a rear roll bar installation. You take out both front seats, the rear seat bottom cushion and the rear corner cushions. The rear fold-down seat backs can stay in place.

You then untuck the carpet from the rear seat pan and from under the door sill trims (they don't have to be removed either) and fold it forward. Here's a pic of mine during installation (I have lots more); note super special hi-tech bungee cord carpet retainer tool! You can see the legs and mounting feet of the roll bar's main hoop. The removable diagonal brace/crossbar is uninstalled in this photo, but the lower seat cushion is back in place.

Neil
96 M3

Fantastic :)

Thanks for those pictures as well.

-Andrew

PM sent

Knee pads? I must be going in to "talk" to the boss about a raise again... I was assuming that he wouldn't have proper padding in a street car. It can get hard to fit around protruding bolts. I've seen race cars without padding in some key spots. You want it anywhere you can make contact with flailing limbs.

I have a Kirk bar in my E30 and have seen two E30's w/ Autopower bars. If you are going w/ a bolt-in bar (not saying you should), I would definately go for the Kirk before the Autopower. The fit on mine is much tighter than what I saw on the Autopower, and the joints are butt welded as opposed to using tabs.

That said, I did add large plates to the base of the main hoop. The rear bars on both the Autopower and Kirk just go to the wheelwells, pretty thin metal that would shear in a second. But I don't think the bar is meant for that kind of a hit (front, rear or side), and is geared to protecting in a rollover. I was able to install mine with a full interior. Just put a couple of cuts in the rear seats for the rear bars to go through.

Knee pads? I must be going in to "talk" to the boss about a raise again... I was assuming that he wouldn't have proper padding in a street car. It can get hard to fit around protruding bolts. I've seen race cars without padding in some key spots. You want it anywhere you can make contact with flailing limbs.

So with a properly padded cage with door bars, the only concern with driving it on the street vs. the track is the risk of hitting your head on the bar between A pillar and B pillar? The risk of injury to limbs is the same on street and track, correct? Just wanted to make sure I was following you. Thanks again for the opinions.