Hi everyone, this is my first post on bimmerforums, so go easy on me. :)

I've got an E46 M3 ZCP that I've been using for the last two seasons for HPDE's. It's a lot of fun, but as time goes on I'm more and more wary about using my (expensive) daily driver for the track.

Next year I'd like to aim for at least one track weekend per month, and maybe down the road get into racing, although that'd be at least a couple years away.

I've been doing some research here on what others have done, and I'm fairly certain I'd like to go with an E36 sedan for a dedicated track car. I'd like to build in safety equipment over the off-season, while stripping the interior and other excess weight.

My question is, is it worth the additional expense to start with an M3, instead of a 325i or 328i? I'd be upgrading the suspension and other components anyway, and there'd be more money left over for modifications right away if I start with a cheaper car.

From some initial research, it looks like a high mileage 325i might run $2-4k, a 328i would run $4-6k, and an M3 would run $8-10k.

All feedback is appreciated! :)

Hi everyone, this is my first post on bimmerforums, so go easy on me. :)

I've got an E46 M3 ZCP that I've been using for the last two seasons for HPDE's. It's a lot of fun, but as time goes on I'm more and more wary about using my (expensive) daily driver for the track.

Next year I'd like to aim for at least one track weekend per month, and maybe down the road get into racing, although that'd be at least a couple years away.



If you're going to get into racing think about it hard now and pick what class and with which club you'll want to do your racing with. That will help you narrow down the choice.

SCCA IT? NASA GTS? Spec E36? IP? Mod?

Try to narrow it down now and save the time and hassle that you'll encounter later.

Carlos.

your daily driver is a e46 M3 ZCP? sorry I'm a bimmerforums newby too but what is ZCP, z-coupe? possibly a S54 Z3 or Z4 M coupe or an e46 M3?

And to answer your question, and to add to what clopez95m3 said, it really depends on what class and how hard your think your going to push your car. As a new racer, I would go with 325 (e30 or e36) and build-up the car as I get more seat time and become a better driver.
If you think about it, sooner or later your going to change the suspension, your going to get track wheels, and engine mods. An M3 will just give you a better start in power since all else will be changed out anyway. Atleast in autocross power wont be a big factor. But with all that said, if you really would like it, a M3 is still a M3. That's my 2cents.

if you can afford it m3 would be a better base to build a track car off of.

If you're going to get into racing think about it hard now and pick what class and with which club you'll want to do your racing with. That will help you narrow down the choice.

SCCA IT? NASA GTS? Spec E36? IP? Mod?

Try to narrow it down now and save the time and hassle that you'll encounter later.

Carlos.

What he said

your daily driver is a e46 M3 ZCP? sorry I'm a bimmerforums newby too but what is ZCP, z-coupe? possibly a S54 Z3 or Z4 M coupe or an e46 M3?


ZCP is the ordering code for the Competition Package, which is a regular M3 with upgraded brakes, wheels, steering ration, some trim pieces, Interlagos Blue paint, etc.

If you're going to get into racing think about it hard now and pick what class and with which club you'll want to do your racing with. That will help you narrow down the choice.

SCCA IT? NASA GTS? Spec E36? IP? Mod?

Try to narrow it down now and save the time and hassle that you'll encounter later.

Carlos.

There's no guarantee I'd be getting into racing, but if I do, I'd want to be able to do it on some sort of reasonable budget. I know there's no cheap racing, but you get the idea. Would SpecE36 be the "cheapest", since so many components are specified? I know this would mean no M3.

Is there any resource out there that compares SCCA IT, NASA GTS, Spec E36, IP, Mod, etc?

And to answer your question, and to add to what clopez95m3 said, it really depends on what class and how hard your think your going to push your car. As a new racer, I would go with 325 (e30 or e36) and build-up the car as I get more seat time and become a better driver.
If you think about it, sooner or later your going to change the suspension, your going to get track wheels, and engine mods. An M3 will just give you a better start in power since all else will be changed out anyway. Atleast in autocross power wont be a big factor. But with all that said, if you really would like it, a M3 is still a M3. That's my 2cents.

Right, since I'd be changing out most of the other components, I think the engine would be the only major difference between the 325/328 and the M3, but I don't know the E36 platform that well, so I could be wrong. In that case, is it worth the $4-5k extra just to have the better engine and trim pieces...

I do think the M3 would be more fun for HPDEs, since it's more fun to be getting point-bys than giving them, most of the time. :buttrock

One additional point to add - I'd like to keep the car street legal for the foreseeable future, so I can drive to HPDEs.

I know it's possible to get a set of track tires in the back of a sedan, with the right cage or 4-point roll bar, and race seats. Does anyone know if it's possible to get a site of tires in the back of a coupe, with similar safety equipment? It seems like it'd be almost impossible, but if it is, that'd give me a lot more used cars to look at.

Thanks for all the input guys!

I did 28 HPDE days in my e46 m3 and decided I needed a real race car with real safety equiptment for the same reasons you gave plus I didn't like going 150 MPH without a cage or other safety stuff. I went SpecE36. That way I can run SpecE36 with bmwcca and ITS with scca. If you go the M3 route, you will find yourself in a class that requires much more money to be competitive. My thoughts.

I believe there are things about the M3 chassis/suspension that are better than the 325/328. Things like reinforced suspension pickup points, better trailing arms, better brakes, etc. Probably nothing that couldn't be duplicated on the 325/328 chassis for a price.

As far as being street legal, my car is mostly street legal, licensed and insured. It has a full cage and is completely gutted. There are a couple of things the cops could get me on if they wanted to. No airbags and no horn button. I do little street driving.

You can get a set of tires/wheels in the back of a coupe as long as there's no cage. Not sure about a rollbar. Would depend. You could also get a small tire/tool trailer to pull. I have a friend who drives his JP racecar to all races. He has his race tires, tools, etc. in the car with him. So, it can be done.

Unless you're someone who wants the pleasure of building your own car, you should really consider buying a racecar. There are many for sale in various levels of performance. You'd be able to do HPDEs with a car that has all the safety equipment and then, if you want, make what improvements or changes are needed to comply with the rules of the class/series you choose. I have recently seen turnkey race cars for as little as $18K.

A point of information..... If you did a cage, seats, harnesses, fire system and window net you could easily spend $4-5K. Just on safety equipment.

Good luck - Jay

You can get a set of tires/wheels in the back of a coupe as long as there's no cage. Not sure about a rollbar. Would depend. You could also get a small tire/tool trailer to pull. I have a friend who drives his JP racecar to all races. He has his race tires, tools, etc. in the car with him. So, it can be done.

I thought about this too. I would think my stuff would be more secure in my back seat and trunk than on a trailer, when parked a hotel for the night. Although if I got in an accident on the way to the track, it wouldn't be so secure to have tires and tools coming forward and hitting me in the back of the head...

Unless you're someone who wants the pleasure of building your own car, you should really consider buying a racecar. There are many for sale in various levels of performance. You'd be able to do HPDEs with a car that has all the safety equipment and then, if you want, make what improvements or changes are needed to comply with the rules of the class/series you choose. I have recently seen turnkey race cars for as little as $18K.

A point of information..... If you did a cage, seats, harnesses, fire system and window net you could easily spend $4-5K. Just on safety equipment.


I've looked at this option as well. I do think it would be fun, and a good learning experience, to build one myself. I do recognize the total cost would be higher, and I'm sure there would be some frustration along the way.

Also, I'd like to keep the budget to <$10k for the car, adding to it over the next year or two. If it's a 325/328, I could do the safety equipment right away, whereas I'd have to wait until middle of next year to do all the safety equipment on an M3.

In terms of performance, a sedan and coupe should be nearly identical, correct?

I believe there are things about the M3 chassis/suspension that are better than the 325/328. Things like reinforced suspension pickup points, better trailing arms, better brakes, etc. Probably nothing that couldn't be duplicated on the 325/328 chassis for a price.

If you add in the fact that the subframe has no welded plates no the non-M cars, its probably worth just getting an M3 - unless his future racing plans conflict with that.

In terms of performance, a sedan and coupe should be nearly identical, correct?

I don't have an educated answer. I'm sedan stupid.

I know it's hard to do. And, everyone will say this in one way or another. You really want to try to "see" how far you'll go with this deal.
If money and time weren't an issue would you race? If the answer is yes and you feel strongly about it, money and time probably won't slow you down much. And, you'll spend much more getting there in steps.

Without going into huge detail, my car went thru 3 iterations. From stock, I decided it needed upgrades to make it decent for the track. For 2 years or so I did these kinds of things. Next, I decided it needed a real track suspension, a cage and less weight. Another year or two. And finally, I decided to race like I'd always wanted to. This meant more changes and upgrades. If I'd have gone for full race from the beginning I could have saved myself a lot of money and time.

Of course, I love the process. And, I didn't listen to those who told me the same things :rolleyes

Jay

I believe there are things about the M3 chassis/suspension that are better than the 325/328. Things like reinforced suspension pickup points, better trailing arms, better brakes, etc. Probably nothing that couldn't be duplicated on the 325/328 chassis for a price.

As far as being street legal, my car is mostly street legal, licensed and insured. It has a full cage and is completely gutted. There are a couple of things the cops could get me on if they wanted to. No airbags and no horn button. I do little street driving.

You can get a set of tires/wheels in the back of a coupe as long as there's no cage. Not sure about a rollbar. Would depend. You could also get a small tire/tool trailer to pull. I have a friend who drives his JP racecar to all races. He has his race tires, tools, etc. in the car with him. So, it can be done.

Unless you're someone who wants the pleasure of building your own car, you should really consider buying a racecar. There are many for sale in various levels of performance. You'd be able to do HPDEs with a car that has all the safety equipment and then, if you want, make what improvements or changes are needed to comply with the rules of the class/series you choose. I have recently seen turnkey race cars for as little as $18K.

A point of information..... If you did a cage, seats, harnesses, fire system and window net you could easily spend $4-5K. Just on safety equipment.

Good luck - Jay

I echo Jay's statements exactly with my 93 325is. I was on a very limited budget. I started autox, did well and progressed to Track Days/HPDE's the next year. I too found myself going faster and more aggresive then I felt real comfortable with in hindsight(although I did not think that at the time).
I too upgraded progressively like Jay. Would have been cheaper as he stated, but I had to do it the way Jay did due to $ constraints.
So I discovered SCCA Club Trials (HPDE with timeslips) and after one event was hooked. So this year I went all in for Track Trails. Now:rolleyes I am going to upgrade the car with full weld cage with double door bars to be SCCA IT legal. I have spent every $ I could afford on safety, brakes, handling. Engine only has a chip, headers, intake (200 crank hp?) and my car is very fast and competitive with much more esperanced drivers/expensive cars. Sure, I get up on the wheel:shifty:D but it is the car, it is balanced, and stops. Mine is a coupe and with my bolt in 6 point Autopower I can haul tires because I removed the rear seat completely, just have to go through the trunk:rolleyes. It works but like Jay's friend I have a little tire trailer and drive my stuff to the track. No $ for truck/trailer at this stage.
Lots of good people hear with lots of experance good and bad.
Oh, I am sedan stupid too:stickoutt
Have fun, be safe, follow your dreams. It only took me 33 years to make mine happen;)

No reason to get an M3. You'll want to replace a lot of things on any car you get like subframe bushings for example. While the subframe is out, you can have the M3 plates welded in. The front control arms are different on the M3, but you'd want to replaced them on any car you get. Buy the cheapest running 325i you can find that doesn't have any major body or mechanical problems and start from there. Just make sure you keep an eye out for what class(es) you would want to run in and build it toward that class.

Or just wait a little longer and save more money and buy something already built. That's missing half of the fun IMO, but it sure is a lot cheaper.

Buy a cheap 325. If you decide to go racing, sell the 325 and buy somebody else's built car.

Go 325. I just bought mine for $2k, upgraded the entire suspension, bushings, chassis stiffness (plates and braces), cage, threw some bolt-on's at the powertrain. I can definately say I am WAY underneath the cost of an M car, and still VERY competitive.

Go 325. I just bought mine for $2k, upgraded the entire suspension, bushings, chassis stiffness (plates and braces), cage, threw some bolt-on's at the powertrain. I can definately say I am WAY underneath the cost of an M car, and still VERY competitive.

If I can find a decent 325 for $2k, it sounds like a good option. That'd be a good $5k-$6k less than an M3...

Buy a cheap 325. If you decide to go racing, sell the 325 and buy somebody else's built car.

If I went that route, I think I'd mod it toward SpecE36, so I could keep it for racing.

I just need to get rid of this little voice in the back of my head telling me how cool it'd be to have two M3's :devillook

whatever you do, dont build a car. I'll equate it to lighting money on fire. In the same respect, buy a prepared car (any level prepared, from HPDE to full blown race), and use that.

I just need to get rid of this little voice in the back of my head telling me how cool it'd be to have two M3's :devillook

telling myself that everyday but I still find myself looking on autotrader.

Go 325. I just bought mine for $2k, upgraded the entire suspension, bushings, chassis stiffness (plates and braces), cage, threw some bolt-on's at the powertrain. I can definately say I am WAY underneath the cost of an M car, and still VERY competitive.

Im looking for a beater/daily driver instead of using my M everyday as well, not really a future race car but will probably autoX a little. Would a $4k e36 325i/325is run decently enough to not have to change out the original powertrain? Basically just the engine reliability of the E36?
Sorry to go off-topic but it may help your decision too, bruzasd.

i was in the same situation 03 m3 3 trackdays . i decided on a 93 325 works for itr scca jp bmw.325 was about 3000.3500 safety equip.2500 suspension 1000 chip,headers,exaust,intake,pads,etc.1200 diff.doing a little bit at a time it aint so bad.2750 empty its light fun .then WHEN you money shift you can always put in a m3 engine.:D:

i was in the same situation 03 m3 3 trackdays . i decided on a 93 325 works for itr scca jp bmw.325 was about 3000.3500 safety equip.2500 suspension 1000 chip,headers,exaust,intake,pads,etc.1200 diff.doing a little bit at a time it aint so bad.2750 empty its light fun .then WHEN you money shift you can always put in a m3 engine.:D:

:lol :alright

whatever you do, dont build a car. I'll equate it to lighting money on fire. In the same respect, buy a prepared car (any level prepared, from HPDE to full blown race), and use that.

He is 100% correct. Almost double the money if you do it or have it done for you then buying a good car prepared.
But you do lose 1/2 the fun if your like me and do 99% of the work on a long term budget;)

He is 100% correct. Almost double the money if you do it or have it done for you then buying a good car prepared.
But you do lose 1/2 the fun if your like me and do 99% of the work on a long term budget;)

I've been on this site, bmwccaclubracing.com, and a couple BMW CCA chapter classifieds, but I haven't seen too many prepared cars that are close to my budget. Are there some other places I should look?

The money burning route does sound like more fun. Besides, I can always grow more (money), right? :D

Prepared level cars don't fit a 10k budget...hell, stock cars don't really fit into a 10k budget. That is unless you are talking a KS or KP E30. The only SE36 car I have seen for sale was $20k.

Aaron Nichols IP car was going for $20K. Not sure if it's still available. Check with Evosport. They'd know. Just call and ask Dale. 714-901-3100x11

Shaun Coleman recently sold his e36m3 for around $18K. It wasn't Prepared legal because of a couple of mods like side exhaust but it was basically a Prepared car.

Also, check justracing dot com calssifieds. I believe Peter Vinsel's car is listed and maybe a couple of others.

Most of what I'm aware of is left coast stuff.

Jay

The prices on e36 M3's are coming down. Bought my 95 M3 130K with matching VIN#'s and mods/reinforcements for $7500. No sunroof too.

The prices on e36 M3's are coming down. Bought my 95 M3 130K with matching VIN#'s and mods/reinforcements for $7500. No sunroof too.

Nice. There's a '96 M3 w/183k posted online for $6900. Getting up there on miles, but they're bulletproof, right? :shifty

Bruzas,

This is Phil with the 330i, we run into each other at a lot of the NCC events. Exciting that you're thinking of getting into racing. Everyone here has more experience than me, but it seems like the place to start is to look at the racing bodies and decide which classes have good representation on the local tracks, look fun to you, and have cars that are within your budget.

What about SpecE30? Is that going too far back in time for you?

Bruzas,

This is Phil with the 330i, we run into each other at a lot of the NCC events. Exciting that you're thinking of getting into racing. Everyone here has more experience than me, but it seems like the place to start is to look at the racing bodies and decide which classes have good representation on the local tracks, look fun to you, and have cars that are within your budget.

What about SpecE30? Is that going too far back in time for you?

What's up Phil? Looking forward to VIR next weekend!

Yeah, I think SpecE30 is probably going a bit far back, but I haven't ruled anything out yet. It'd probably be a couple years before I try racing, plenty of driver improvement to be done still.

Decisions, decisions. :eyecrazy

Nice. There's a '96 M3 w/183k posted online for $6900. Getting up there on miles, but they're bulletproof, right? :shifty

Another great price. I hope/think they are bulletproof.

I also think spec e30 is the way to go. Cheap cars, handle really well, and a good field where you are...

I also just picked up a '95 M3 with 118,000 for $7,500. Fairly clean car for a 12 year old car. Interior is very clean. The E36's are getting to be very affordable.

Those prices are great, I think it'll likely get even more affordable once the new M3 comes out next year. People who want the new V8 will sell their E46 M3s to the E36 M3 drivers who'll be selling to us :b_red.

I'm interested in putting together a DE/DD car and was thinking E36 non-M, but for under $6-7.5k for an M it's worth thinking about, since a lot of parts on the 325 would get replaced with M parts anyway.

Actually you would most likely not be using M parts on a 325i(s)... You would more likely be using the same after market manfacturers... Koni/Bilstein, UUC, etc... However, if you have a motor problem, 325i(s) motors in good shape w/low miles can be had for $500-750.... You won't get M motors for that amount...

Either is a good stuff!!

-CKKrause

Actually you would most likely not be using M parts on a 325i(s)... You would more likely be using the same after market manfacturers... Koni/Bilstein, UUC, etc...

I was planning on replacing the whole rear subframe, brake to brake, with one from an M, and the front control arms as well as front brakes. As for the aftermarket parts, I completely agree.

But, to get back on bruzasd's topic, any swapout like this would have to be legal for the class you decide to run.

CKKrause, about how much has your Spec E36 build run you, if you don't mind my asking? I've seen people theorizing from as low as $12k to more than twice that number.

Here's my current thinking...

If a mechanically sound E36 M3 can be had for $7k or so, I can put a cage/seats/harnesses in it and have fun for HPDE's for the next couple years, then either:
1) sell it for close to what I paid, and buy an already prepped car
2) keep the M3 and use it for IS or build toward IP (and/or GTSx?)
3) decide not to race and continue to enjoy the M3 for HPDE's

3)Buy some camber plates&/arms for the zcp(cream puff)... don't forget better brakes and a set wheels.

or


4)Buy SRiley's E36 IP/read about it here http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=818349car.

bruzasd-

I don't want to know how much it cost as my wife might read this!!!!! But seriously, the car was $2400 with a good motor/trans/diff. Other than the cage and alignment, I've done all the work myself.... Cost was approx. another $10K not including comsumables such as tires/pads/fluids. That cost also includes selling a number of items off the car as I stripped it down... It's taken 1 1/2 years because I ebayed and craigslisted and looked for sales as much as possible.

A lot of guys will tell you to buy an already prepped car and I wouldn't dispute that advice. I built mine because I used to be an engineer and I like this sort of stuff...it's kind of like therapy..... which I need for having gotten involved in the stuff in the first place!!!!

Hope that helps!!!

-CKKrause

Without going into huge detail, my car went thru 3 iterations. From stock, I decided it needed upgrades to make it decent for the track. For 2 years or so I did these kinds of things. Next, I decided it needed a real track suspension, a cage and less weight. Another year or two. And finally, I decided to race like I'd always wanted to. This meant more changes and upgrades. If I'd have gone for full race from the beginning I could have saved myself a lot of money and time.
Jay, I want to upgrade my E36 with a few track day upgrades; suspension, brakes, 4-pt seat bely bar, etc. Eventually, I'll buy a already complete spec E30 car and use that but in the meantime, I'd like to upgrade my current daily to make it a little bit better HPDE car. Can you provide some suggestions on what suspension, spring-rates, rotors, pads, 4-pt bar you'd go with? All of the suspension rubber will be changed by default.

Appreciate your comments.

YES !!!

Here is mine and it is FAST !!

Car Modifications August 2007

1998 BMW M3 sedan, automatic

Intake
Dinan Stage 5 engine software
Dinan Stage 4 transmission chip
Dinan Throttle body
Dinan HFM/ fuel pressure regulator
Confronti CAI
M50 intake manifold

Fuel
BimmerWorld Stage II fuel starvation kit

Engine
VAC oil pan baffle

Exhaust
Supersprint exhaust manifold
Supersprint track pipe
B&B muffler

Suspension
H&R sport springs
Bilstein sport shocks and new mounts/bearings
Urethane bushings all around
Dinan camber plate
Front and rear stress bars
Cross brace

Brakes
Hawk HP Plus pads on stock rotors
SS brake lines
Ducted brake coolers
Ate blue race fluid

Safety
Schroth harnesses

Wheels and Tires
BF Goodrich G-Force R1 245/40/17 on 8.5” OEM rims, w/ 15 mm front spacers
Hoosier “wets”, 225/45/17 on OEM rims

General
Replaced radiator, hoses, belts, water pump, clutch fan last year after purchase of car. Red line fluids in all systems.

i didn't read the entire thread, but if you click on my signature link for my racecar build, i have done the exact same thing. total cost now about $25-28K for a fairly competitive IP club racer.

if you like to DIY, you can save a lot of money by purchasing a cheap 325 and upgrading all the parts yourself.

so what is a better way to go for an A group HPDE car, 1995 M3 or an OBDII M3 96-99?

I am thinking of acquiring a second car next season.

so what is a better way to go for an A group HPDE car, 1995 M3 or an OBDII M3 96-99?

I am thinking of acquiring a second car next season.

makes absolutely no difference.

thanks, that opens some options

My 2 cents. I drive a low-end DE M3 in the IS class, but if I had it to do over, I'd opt for the new Spec E36 class. It's cheap if you want it to be. The lower weight makes them more fun, and I believe their lap times will (eventually) be consistently better than the IS cars.