.....from today's track session with MazdaDrivers. My friend in his 330i ZHP dropping the outside wheels off in T17 = holy scheisse :eek:

google
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7146855699648071827&hl=en

youtube *now brighter & more enhanced :eek:*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbaSqd8ms7U

Definitely a code brown moment. Seemed like an eternity of staring at the guardrail before it rotated away. :lol:

Once the wheel dropped, what provoked the snap spin, did he try to correct immediately, or did he just do a quick lift? The video is dark its hard to tell.

... and that's why you should drive straight off. ;)

Definitely a code brown moment.
absolutely. especially since you're a foot from the armco!
Once the wheel dropped, what provoked the snap spin, did he try to correct immediately, or did he just do a quick lift? The video is dark its hard to tell.
no lifting.....

he hits the dirt with his steering wheel turned pretty good and as soon as his back tire hits the dirt/grass, it accelerates into the snap spin.


yea, definitely would've been safer to go straight off.

Sheesh....that's just...I mean.....WOW!

WOW... yea, thats really not how to take hog pen. You can tell something bad was going to happen as soon as he turned in and got MASSIVE understeer. that sucks but I'm glad everyone was ok. but then again.. let me add my own video to this.... Earlier this year hog pen and I were never really friends

(a little nws language (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsIAHAVDoRw))

... and that's why you should drive straight off. ;)

exactly...tons of room to go straight off on the outside, not so much room on the inside if you try to fight it...

Once the wheel dropped, what provoked the snap spin, did he try to correct immediately, or did he just do a quick lift? The video is dark its hard to tell.

That's one of the typical ways track newbs wreck their cars, drop a wheel and try to come back on right away. You get shot across the track towards the Armco. He got lucky.

Carlos.

I had a front seat for a Audi doing the same thing expect he went Armco hard and totalled his car.. I think he is needed a change of clothing after that..

Yeah, I went WOT too soon and didn't ease off, so I went off and the next thing I know I felt the back end snapping out.

To me it looked fine all the way to track out except that he didn't go straight off.
Ive had 2 off a couple times and 4 off once there. Plenty off room to coast to a stop on the outside. Gather your thoughts, look at the corner station and come in. Good thing no one was behind but I guess you have to expect the unexpected being behind someone in a spin.

I'm surprised the instructor didn't point to where you should have been looking. Of course it's easy for me to talk sitting in my chair.

Just got to walk away with a lesson well learned.

Yeah, I went WOT too soon and didn't ease off, so I went off and the next thing I know I felt the back end snapping out.
The problem wasn't that you didn't ease off the throttle. The problem is that you left the track with the front tires not pointed straight ahead.

Check this photo of an RX-7 from yesterday's SCCA race at Infineon. He went straight off in a very fast section of esses, but rejoined the track without incident:
http://thenobot.org/pictures/20070902-scca_sears/?IMG_6363.jpg

This guy went off in a similar place, but spun back across the track and into the tires. Good thing Miatas are such stout little cars:
http://thenobot.org/pictures/20070902-scca_sears/?IMG_6467.jpg

The problem wasn't that you didn't ease off the throttle. The problem is that you left the track with the front tires not pointed straight ahead.

Check this photo of an RX-7 from yesterday's SCCA race at Infineon. He went straight off in a very fast section of esses, but rejoined the track without incident:
http://thenobot.org/pictures/20070902-scca_sears/?IMG_6363.jpg

This guy went off in a similar place, but spun back across the track and into the tires. Good thing Miatas are such stout little cars:
http://thenobot.org/pictures/20070902-scca_sears/?IMG_6467.jpg
I'm just saying that I got on the throttle too soon and didn't make the necessary adjustments that got me off in the first place.

The classroom instructor was actually talking about straightening out the wheel if you get off, but being the beginner that I am, it was hard to put that knowledge into action. After the session, I asked around and everyone told me the same thing.

Regardless, I am lucky, you don't have to tell me that.

I'm just saying that I got on the throttle too soon and didn't make the necessary adjustments that got me off in the first place.

The classroom instructor was actually talking about straightening out the wheel if you get off, but being the beginner that I am, it was hard to put that knowledge into action. After the session, I asked around and everyone told me the same thing.

Regardless, I am lucky, you don't have to tell me that.
You probably learned more in that turn than most people learned all day.

1) You recognize what got you into that situation.
It won't be the last time.
2) You now know what you should have done.
You are lucky to get another chance.

In that turn a few years ago I went in too hot.
I held the car on the track but looked for my exit plan not trusting myself to hold the line. Surprising myself that the car was staying planted, I kept in some maintenance throttle. Still holding the line I looked for another exit just in case I felt the rear slide out. I opened the wheel, dropped two wheels as I tracked out. A complete non-issue. In a DE sometimes you must go off, sometimes you don't need to. When in doubt, I go off.

I'm curious if your instructor said anything?
It looked like he was just along for the ride.

Something to discuss in class is escape routes/
I like to look for escape routes when I do parade laps.

At the end of T1 @ VIR you can travel a long distance if you go to the left slightly rather than straight or to the right.

You probably learned more in that turn than most people learned all day.

1) You recognize what got you into that situation.
It won't be the last time.
2) You now know what you should have done.
You are lucky to get another chance.

In that turn a few years ago I went in too hot.
I held the car on the track but looked for my exit plan not trusting myself to hold the line. Surprising myself that the car was staying planted, I kept in some maintenance throttle. Still holding the line I looked for another exit just in case I felt the rear slide out. I opened the wheel, dropped two wheels as I tracked out. A complete non-issue. In a DE sometimes you must go off, sometimes you don't need to. When in doubt, I go off.

I'm curious if your instructor said anything?
It looked like he was just along for the ride.

Something to discuss in class is escape routes/
I like to look for escape routes when I do parade laps.

At the end of T1 @ VIR you can travel a long distance if you go to the left slightly rather than straight or to the right.
I was actually also driving too fast before my tires warmed up. That happened the first session of the second day. My instructor actually told me to pit a few laps before for me to take it a notch down and make some room.

During the actual incident itself, my instructor told me later that he was glancing at how close we were to the barrier. After I recovered and made my way into pit, he calmly stated what I did wrong. This made me realize how experienced instructors are.

Anyway, I'm definitely expecting the possibility of going off in any corner now, especially since it happened to me. The sessions after that, I really focused on many things I wouldn't have, if I didn't have this experience.

I'll definitely plan on using parade laps to look for escape routes in future events, that sounds like a really good idea.

(05:12:29 PM) launchbackwards: i really just want to bump the thread
(05:12:34 PM) launchbackwards: so my vid becomes semi-efamous

(05:13:56 PM) nihilation: as you wish
(05:14:17 PM) launchbackwards: should i try to drift it next time?
(05:14:21 PM) launchbackwards: clutch kick
(05:14:31 PM) nihilation: yea, like seth thomas did
(05:14:33 PM) launchbackwards: lol
(05:14:34 PM) launchbackwards: he did?
(05:14:34 PM) nihilation: at limerock i think
(05:14:35 PM) launchbackwards: rofl
(05:14:48 PM) launchbackwards: ill have to one up seth thomas
(05:14:53 PM) launchbackwards: drift the straights
(05:14:57 PM) launchbackwards: whole way
(05:15:07 PM) launchbackwards: create a train so everyone watches my awesome drifting

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/154/3237/1024/DSC_5297_ALMS.jpg

(05:12:29 PM) launchbackwards: i really just want to bump the thread
(05:12:34 PM) launchbackwards: so my vid becomes semi-efamous

(05:13:56 PM) nihilation: as you wish
(05:14:17 PM) launchbackwards: should i try to drift it next time?
(05:14:21 PM) launchbackwards: clutch kick
(05:14:31 PM) nihilation: yea, like james clay did
(05:14:33 PM) launchbackwards: lol
(05:14:34 PM) launchbackwards: he did?
(05:14:34 PM) nihilation: at limerock i think
(05:14:35 PM) launchbackwards: rofl
(05:14:48 PM) launchbackwards: ill have to one up james clay
(05:14:53 PM) launchbackwards: drift the straights
(05:14:57 PM) launchbackwards: whole way
(05:15:07 PM) launchbackwards: create a train so everyone watches my awesome drifting
:icon28XX you actually took the time to change my screenname to launchbackwards

uh ohz, now people know my true intention

Oh wait, I have to one up Seth Thomas and not James Clay.

I predict a dead ZHP by the end of year.. LOL... HogPen is like Turn 10 at Summit in the respect u go in way to wrong and spin... u'll find the inside wall in a hurry... Just remember do like Spaze... spin it to the outside and drop the F bomb and u'll be fine...

I predict a dead ZHP by the end of year.. LOL... HogPen is like Turn 10 at Summit in the respect u go in way to wrong and spin... u'll find the inside wall in a hurry... Just remember do like Spaze... spin it to the outside and drop the F bomb and u'll be fine...
I'm on my way to being like Ross already, I didn't shuffle steer at all.

HAHAH awesome vidS!!! yeehaw! that looked like fun

I'm on my way to being like Ross already, I didn't shuffle steer at all.

lol, i think the ZHP will survive for many more HPDE's to come. And as for being like me... uhh you need to start cursing more ;):D

I'm on my way to being like Ross already, I didn't shuffle steer at all.

Launch, did you run the MBO event at Shenandoah about a month ago? I recognize that driving:D I think we talked about our runs...wasn't that you? I have a black 95M3 pitted towards the back stretch?

Hey good driving bud. Anytime you divert from the "line" and don't wrinkle sheet metal it's good driving:).

Don

Launch, did you run the MBO event at Shenandoah about a month ago? I recognize that driving:D I think we talked about our runs...wasn't that you? I have a black 95M3 pitted towards the back stretch?

Hey good driving bud. Anytime you divert from the "line" and don't wrinkle sheet metal it's good driving:).

Don
Yessir, I did. I remember that it took me a while to catch up to you at Shenandoah, and I think the only reason I caught up within that session was because you were stuck behind somebody for a while. You were right there with me the entire rest of the session.

I actually have that session on my google video account, and I comment on how fast you got. :buttrock

Yessir, I did. I remember that it took me a while to catch up to you at Shenandoah, and I think the only reason I caught up within that session was because you were stuck behind somebody for a while. You were right there with me the entire rest of the session.

I actually have that session on my google video account, and I comment on how fast you got. :buttrock

Ah that is you:) Plz PM me your first name(if you don't wish to say here).

I thought that was a shot from the MBO event in your sig...eheh. I've been fighting a big push ever since I put the sway bars on. I don't want to make too many changes so I only adjusted once and that was the last session. Did an event at WG a few weeks ago and the car worked REAL good on the fast sections but still pushed a tad on the technical sections. Again, I didn't want to change the settings since that was my first time there too.

Nice to talk to you again. Great driver:).

Don

(05:12:29 PM) launchbackwards: can u post something so that thread gets bump???? rofl lawl loloz
(05:12:34 PM) launchbackwards: pls man...

(05:13:56 PM) datax: what are you? attention whore?
(05:14:17 PM) launchbackwards: oh yea... lawl lolalzle
(05:14:35 PM) launchbackwards: rofl
(05:14:48 PM) launchbackwards: i'm the fastest guy at vir
(05:14:53 PM) launchbackwards: i eat porsches for lunch
(05:14:57 PM) launchbackwards: whole day
(05:15:07 PM) datax: great man. you're a good driver.

People make mistakes, its how you learn.


How do you do that without cursing and yelling? I hit coolant and spun last year and the corner worker said he thought he heard me the whole time.

i was screaming while looking at that guard rail, i was thinking it was going to hit... HARD!

How do you do that without cursing and yelling? I hit coolant and spun last year and the corner worker said he thought he heard me the whole time.

:lol

When I'm solo I talk to myself all the time....I think it keeps me calm:D

Don

If I screw up a turn or botch braking or something I immediately yell a command at myself like a good instructor would so it gets drilled into my head. TOO EARLY! TIGHTER!

Try it. It works. :D

CCA racer Mike Bonasera told me when he really gets in the groove he starts singing Frank Sinatra. Go ahead and laugh, but I tried it and it works too. :D

(05:12:29 PM) launchbackwards: can u post something so that thread gets bump???? rofl lawl loloz
(05:12:34 PM) launchbackwards: pls man...

(05:13:56 PM) datax: what are you? attention whore?
(05:14:17 PM) launchbackwards: oh yea... lawl lolalzle
(05:14:35 PM) launchbackwards: rofl
(05:14:48 PM) launchbackwards: i'm the fastest guy at vir
(05:14:53 PM) launchbackwards: i eat porsches for lunch
(05:14:57 PM) launchbackwards: whole day
(05:15:07 PM) datax: great man. you're a good driver.
So, this is why you wanted me to link you to this thread? I don't type like a Burmese fob.

I can't beat your GT3, Ken. No one can, especially since you hit 143MPH on the back straight at Shenandoah. :eyecrazy

People make mistakes, its how you learn.


How do you do that without cursing and yelling? I hit coolant and spun last year and the corner worker said he thought he heard me the whole time.

I had to look calm for the camera, cause I knew it was running. I was screaming mentally. :rofl

If I screw up a turn or botch braking or something I immediately yell a command at myself like a good instructor would so it gets drilled into my head. TOO EARLY! TIGHTER!Gee, I thought I was the only one who heard voices in my head. But my voices are usually telling me, early, early, early.

My voices yell at me when I make a mistake.. I perfer to yell at myself when i do make a mistake and start singing some Collective Soul or Daughtry when i'm pushing it.. LOL.. I think u'd be shocked by how many other driver's do it.. I have seen guys go out with a ipod under their firesuit with only 1 ear bud though before.

I went off like that in hog pen once, it's one hell of a ride. Once I knew the entry was well botched and the car was sideways I just locked the brakes and the car will head off in the same direction of travel and you don't have to worry so much about the armco.

I had to look calm for the camera, cause I knew it was running. I was screaming mentally.

Just yell "NEMISIS!", or "Serenity NOW!"

^^^^ :lol :rofl Someone please link the Nemesis video.

I went off like that in hog pen once, it's one hell of a ride. Once I knew the entry was well botched and the car was sideways I just locked the brakes and the car will head off in the same direction of travel and you don't have to worry so much about the armco.
i bet the results would be nasty if your tires caught the dirt sideways. :eek:
^^^^ :lol :rofl Someone please link the Nemesis video.
:rofl

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=489004234752212560&q=nemesis&total=333&start=10&num=10&so=4&type=search&plindex=4

Hahaha... not the Nemesis vid.

LOL....that vid is too much.:stickoutt

OMG, I had not seen that. to funny!

I am sure I will be saying 'early-early-early' to myself this weekend at Road America... that and 'LATE APEX DUMBY' L A T E ...

I held the car on the track but looked for my exit plan not trusting myself to hold the line. Surprising myself that the car was staying planted, I kept in some maintenance throttle. Still holding the line I looked for another exit just in case I felt the rear slide out. I opened the wheel, dropped two wheels as I tracked out. A complete non-issue. In a DE sometimes you must go off, sometimes you don't need to. When in doubt, I go off..
I think that's the thing that's not taught the correct, for both DE's and normal street driving - you always need an exit plan, whether its because you overcooked a corner or the guy in front of you does something incredibly stupid. I've been off, and its no big deal as long as its by choice. The alternative is an off not by choice going sideways - most wrecks I've seen at DE's have been due to trying to save a car that should have just been driven straight off.

dcvee

if the car is nice during the fast stuff but pushes in the technical stuff I would say that you are probably pushing a touch hard in those places and inducing your own understeer by trying to be fast in a corner that is just really slow. Turn 14 at CMP comes to mind. That turn is really slow and if you try and wind it up a bit it really delays you getting back on the throttle for the front straight. Some turns are just slow and you have to respect them for being slow. You can look at weather they are a turn leading to another turn, a turn at the end of a straight or a turn at the beginning of a straight and work on the best line to be on the throttle the earliest for the last type.

cwsgbm

yes the exit plan is something that is always nice to have. But not always feasible. Uphill esses at the Glen come to mind. With my students I like to point out places to "play" and places to "pay". At most tracks you have some corners that are relatively benign and have lots of runoff room and some corners that are complicated or very fast, and have little to no runoff room. You can push it a little harder in the play corners and toe "the line" in the pay corners. Just an extra bit to think about.

.....from today's track session with MazdaDrivers. My friend in his 330i ZHP dropping the outside wheels off in T17 = holy scheisse :eek:

google
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7146855699648071827&hl=en

youtube
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y507_wj90zE


Your friend is a scheissekampf. He had the steering wheel still turned hard to the right when the front wheels came back on-track, but the left rear was still in the grass. That sent him around.

yes the exit plan is something that is always nice to have. But not always feasible.
I concur, especially in oversteer situations.

Your friend is a scheissekampf. He had the steering wheel still turned hard to the right when the front wheels came back on-track, but the left rear was still in the grass. That sent him around.
Seh ich deine fette Freundin, denke ich Deutsche Panzer rollen wieder. :rolleyes

Your friend is a scheissekampf. He had the steering wheel still turned hard to the right when the front wheels came back on-track, but the left rear was still in the grass. That sent him around.
um yea......we've already covered that. pay attention, tyler.


brighter version of the video updated in post #1.

um yea......we've already covered that. pay attention, tyler.


Maybe he should stick to 4hp enduro karts, Shim.

glad you kept it off the aarmco there bro. what up with the shortened fourth sessions each day? not a big fan of getting shorted track time. not sure i will run with those guys again soon.

just an opinion, but you do know that your misfortune started up there around turn 14, right. pinch it at the top and there is less room at the bottom. keep up the good work, luck is on your side.

www.skipbarber.com

www.skipbarber.com (http://www.skipbarber.com)
I wish.

If you want track time, see Chin Motorsports. More time than you have energy to drive.

dcvee

if the car is nice during the fast stuff but pushes in the technical stuff I would say that you are probably pushing a touch hard in those places and inducing your own understeer by trying to be fast in a corner that is just really slow. Turn 14 at CMP comes to mind. That turn is really slow and if you try and wind it up a bit it really delays you getting back on the throttle for the front straight. Some turns are just slow and you have to respect them for being slow. You can look at weather they are a turn leading to another turn, a turn at the end of a straight or a turn at the beginning of a straight and work on the best line to be on the throttle the earliest for the last type.

Good advice...and we tested exactly that scenario. We (instructor on my 3rd DE)thought the same but after experimenting on different corners, he agreed that the car is pushing on entry. We would go in painfully slow and the car would move laterally a bunch. Now, if you go REAL slow, sure there is no push. Car is decent in the middle and great off. But it just doesn't have a nice entry. Hey, I could lie to myself and say it's me learning. And I'm sure X% of the time it is me still learning! But not every time, every corner.

Actually when I do over-drive a corner is when it performs best. Under HARD braking the front end does transfer some additional weight and the car turns. But like you said, due to throw-away turns and such, craming on the brakes is not always an option.

Thanks for the insight!
Don

Oh wait, I have to one up Seth Thomas and not James Clay.

Great save. Glad you didn't hit the armco.

LOL the competition has begun. ;)

same incident at the same location from the same weekend as LaunchBackward's screw up :rofl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbSXgFON28s

If I screw up a turn or botch braking or something I immediately yell a command at myself like a good instructor would so it gets drilled into my head. TOO EARLY! TIGHTER!

Try it. It works. :D

CCA racer Mike Bonasera told me when he really gets in the groove he starts singing Frank Sinatra. Go ahead and laugh, but I tried it and it works too. :D

LOL, Jesse, so THATs what I heard when I was behind you.

or did I hear:

"Dear Lord Baby Jesus"


In all seriousness, talking to your self (loudly in my case) works.

:D Laugh it up. Next time you're out there and in your groove you'll do it and thank me.

Damn dude, all well that ends well. I guess it might give you a different perspective on certain things from here on out. Glad to see it ended the way it did.

P.S. remind me to always be in a different run group than you :finger22

Damn dude, all well that ends well. I guess it might give you a different perspective on certain things from here on out. Glad to see it ended the way it did.

P.S. remind me to always be in a different run group than you :finger22
Good idea. If we run in the same group, we'll probably both end up going off trying to battle eachother. :rofl