Bear with me...I'm sure this has been covered. But after some searching, I haven't found the solution I'm looking for.

I have a 1998 E36 M3 coupe with the stock setup and alignment, including the forged staggered wheel setup with Kumho MX stock size tires. On the street, it seems okay. On the track at the limit, severe understeer is experienced and can't be corrected with tire pressures or driver inputs. Sure, it's a bit soft but how many times have you heard that this car is suppose to feature 50/50 weight distribution and the best handling, etc? I've driven the 'older' E36 M3, which was much better out of the box than the 'later' E36 M3 I purchased less than a year ago. Quite frankly, I was extremely disappointed during my first track day.

Since the staggered setup (for this car) simply doesn't make sense for a track setup, would a switch to a non-staggered setup cure the horrible understeer condition? I don't mind purchasing a set of track wheels with R compounds, but purchasing a $1500 soft coilover setup might not be much better than a stock suspension.

Any comments on this issue? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

While I don't own the m3 I track the owner has:
Bilstein Shocks
H&R Sports
UUS Sways
17x8's all the way around with rt-615's

And its a joy to drive on and off track. Its not an amazing track suspension but there is only a hit of understeer, which can be compensated for easily.

With the stock alignment, it's going to understeer. Even with R compounds, having alignment is going to make it push.

I'm building my car to be a fun HPDE car that still retains stock ride height and the oem springs since I drive the car around the city every day and need the height.

For HPDE use, I've already got a set of 8.5" track wheels I'll put some good street tires on. Installing Koni inserts and fronts, and TC Kline SA konis for the rear, along with powerflex RTABs. Also in the front, I will be swapping the strut hats in order to get more negative camber. And down the line, I'll end up getting a set of swaybars. From what I've researched, I don't really like any of the off the shelf "sets", so I'm going to piece together front and rears from different companies.

Get a set of coilovers with 375/475 spring rates from Vorshlag or GC. The car will ride better than stock on the street and way better on the track. Im sure you can get a set with camber plates for under $1500. You can keep stock ride height it you want. Add sways later. then go to track rubber and wheels.

Your stock setup will die with R rubber.

$1,340 for Vorshlag
http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=10&products_id=87
http://www.vorshlag.com/cart/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=6&products_id=28

GC $1,300 cut and gut.
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=536/CA=99
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php?II=641

There are many things you can do to improve the handling of this car. From fairly inexpensive to lots-o-money. You don't have to break the bank to make the car more neutral and still have a nice streetable car.

Go to non-staggered wheel/tire setup and go to wider, stickier tires. Example = 17x8.5 wheels with 245s all around.

Add aftermarket sway bars.

Upgrade to better shock/inserts and aftermarket springs. Example = Koni SAs and H&R OE Sports.

None of these mods are extreme and will not compromise the ride much at all.

Depending on how much you track the car and what your future plans are, you may want to go more extreme. Coilovers, CC plates, adjustable rear LCAs, etc.

I went thru 3 phases with my car. 1) Make it handle better but still mostly street. 2) More extreme track handling without regard for street comfort but still fully streetable. 3) Full on race car. I wish I'd have known I'd be racing when I started. I'd have skipped a step or two and saved some time/money.

Jay

Lot's of great advice has been given and I'll add my $.02.

To get it more neutral on the cheaper side.
Go to a Square tire setup, and if your not adding parts you can reduce some camber in the rear so it doesn't cause so much push.
Or you could swap strut hats on the front to get some more negative camber in the front and thereby letting you leave the rear.

Usually people say you want about 1 deg more negative in the front than the rear.
Anyway you go, your moving away from a factory spec alignment.

I don't know how much track experience you have, but if your just starting out you may want to hold off on R-comps since they can cover alot of the mistakes in your driving that a street tire would show you.

Non-staggered tires and wheels, and a new alignment with more front negative camber(1 degree more negative than the rear), and a smidge of front toe out (1/16th?), is the first step to an understeer cure. If you plan on streeting it too, make sure you have weight in the front seats and rear seat of the car when you do the alignment.

While I don't own the m3 I track the owner has:
Bilstein Shocks
H&R Sports
UUS Sways
17x8's all the way around with rt-615's

And its a joy to drive on and off track. Its not an amazing track suspension but there is only a hit of understeer, which can be compensated for easily.

What are your sways adjusted to Ross? And the car you are referring to is the red M3 with the "time attack" decals? Stock alignment/camber too? I have the same setup you listed but a little different sway bars and no rt-615's. My car pushes BAD on tight/technical sections. On faster layouts it's pretty neutral....a little understeer but very manageable.

I should add; +1 for non-staggered and increased camber/track alignment. I would start there as well.

Thanks,
Don

I had a similar experience as the OP. The simplest solution was to find extra rear M Double Spoke IIs and mount the 8.5s all around with 235/40-17 sized tires. Currently run ADVAN Neovas (outstanding performance dry/wet). The car still pushes, but it's a safe understeer, not an annoying plow like before. My car sees mostly street duty with one weekend per month track duty (A/Instructor level) during April to September each year. Am quite happy with no other mods and maxed out stock negative camber (save for EBC Yellow Stuff pads/EBC Sport rotors/Motul RBF600/UUC steel lines).

Thanks very much for your comments and experiences...much appreciated.

I have a bit of track experience, mostly racing formula cars and instructing at race, DE, and BMW schools. Since I use this car as my daily driver and generally have it during the school weekends, it's nice to get out and do some hot laps in your own car. Because of the understeer, I find the car 'less than desirable' on the track and usually pull in sooner rather than later. I'd like to change this...

Initially, I thought that I'd go with some 17 X 8 wheels and 235/40/17 R-compounds and an alignment with the strut hat swap. The Kosei wheels looked desirable, however I thought I saw a thread that suggested they were no longer available. Perhaps a decent set of other wheels might be suitable for what I'm going to use them for...

Will the stock E36 rears (17 X 8.5) fit on the front without any fitment issues (wheel spacer or fender rolling required)? If I can use 8.5 wide wheels, I guess I could go with aftermarket wheels, so long as the offset was correct (and the width was available).

If I'm still not satisfied, I could look at sway bars and suspensions. Regarding the sway bars, it seems as if the sway bar manufacturers are designing the bars with the staggered setup in mind...doh! I've used H&R and Eibach sport springs with sport shocks on previous cars and (you're right) they're definitely acceptable on a daily driver.

Thanks,

If your 98 is still riding on the OE shocks they are totally gone. at least get some new dampers. The coilovers and nice because you can change the spring rates as your needs of the car change.

Anyway, good luck with the wheels

What are your sways adjusted to Ross? And the car you are referring to is the red M3 with the "time attack" decals? Stock alignment/camber too? I have the same setup you listed but a little different sway bars and no rt-615's. My car pushes BAD on tight/technical sections. On faster layouts it's pretty neutral....a little understeer but very manageable.

I should add; +1 for non-staggered and increased camber/track alignment. I would start there as well.

Thanks,
Don

Don,
Yes, I'm referring to the Vinyl-ed up red car, lol. its not my car and I've not really been under it to see, but I think both the bars are on full soft. I have no idea what the alignment is, nor do i think the owner will actually pay for a good "Race" alignment, if it does not have one.

One they i can say about the car is yes, it understeers a tad, but that just means i later apex stuff and I get a little rough with the throttle. I can get the car to rotate just fine normally. Then again, he has a CF hood, no interior, no AC, and stuff like that... maybe that helps

I might jump under the car and mess with the sways a little, if i have time. bump the rear up to full stiff if i can, and maybe mess with the front.

kosei 17x8.5" +40 offset was not discontinued; tirerack was selling em recently for 165 (great bang for the buck for our bmw's)
The Kosei wheels looked desirable, however I thought I saw a thread that suggested they were no longer available.

Don,
Yes, I'm referring to the Vinyl-ed up red car, lol. its not my car and I've not really been under it to see, but I think both the bars are on full soft. I have no idea what the alignment is, nor do i think the owner will actually pay for a good "Race" alignment, if it does not have one.

One they i can say about the car is yes, it understeers a tad, but that just means i later apex stuff and I get a little rough with the throttle. I can get the car to rotate just fine normally. Then again, he has a CF hood, no interior, no AC, and stuff like that... maybe that helps

I might jump under the car and mess with the sways a little, if i have time. bump the rear up to full stiff if i can, and maybe mess with the front.

Thanks!

Hey Jay, I did an alignment on my car, took out some rear camber, and went to zero front toe. It did make a difference, not enough, but a cheap way to make it a bit better.
I plan over the winter to get a sport spring/ shock combo, or mild coilovers.

I might jump under the car and mess with the sways a little, if i have time. bump the rear up to full stiff if i can, and maybe mess with the front.

Unless you have aftermarket sways, there is no adjustment

Hi Paul

Cool. Did you have Rob McCabe do the alignment at Vantage? I'm off this week, so I'm tempted to drive up and have it done. Did you swap your front strut hats, or is your front camber still close to 0 degrees?

This would make the car a little more fun for the BMW school, this weekend. Although I'm tempted to do the coilover thing and non-staggered wheel/tire R-compound combo this winter and then get an alignment...hmm.

Swapping front strut hats is a cheap/easy way to get some negative camber up front. But keep in mind that it'll add about 2 degrees negative. If you have no way to increase the rear camber enough to "keep up" you may get less than stellar results.

You can also increase the negative camber in front by a smaller amount by adding flat washers between the strut housing (lower bolts) and steering knuckle. In my case, a washer about 1/10" thick added about .75-1.0 degrees negative.

You need to know where you're starting from. I don't think the stock specs are for zero camber.

Jay

Hi Paul

Cool. Did you have Rob McCabe do the alignment at Vantage? I'm off this week, so I'm tempted to drive up and have it done. Did you swap your front strut hats, or is your front camber still close to 0 degrees?

This would make the car a little more fun for the BMW school, this weekend. Although I'm tempted to do the coilover thing and non-staggered wheel/tire R-compound combo this winter and then get an alignment...hmm.

I*think* the front strut mount swap gets you to about 2.2 camber each side? I know it varies between the 95 and 96-99's. I put later mounts on my 95 and ended up with 2.2. Next, I'll be using shims behind the 2 lower strut bolts to hopefully get another .5 or so? Only problem with the shims is you then have to run spacers so your tires dont' rub the strut housing/lower spring hat. But I guess that depends on rim offset. I know on my 17x8 SSR's I'll have to run the spacers on the front which is no big deal since my 95 measured 3/4" less tire width in the front as compared the rear so I run them anyway.

My car is not a daily driver so I don't mind going coilovers/firm spring rates...which is my next step.

Don

Swapping front strut hats is a cheap/easy way to get some negative camber up front. But keep in mind that it'll add about 2 degrees negative. If you have no way to increase the rear camber enough to "keep up" you may get less than stellar results.

You can also increase the negative camber in front by a smaller amount by adding flat washers between the strut housing (lower bolts) and steering knuckle. In my case, a washer about 1/10" thick added about .75-1.0 degrees negative.

You need to know where you're starting from. I don't think the stock specs are for zero camber.

Jay

lol..jay is obviously a faster typer:D