I've been hearing rumours of a BMW V8 in Grand Am GT next year, perhaps w/ Dinan involvement. Anyone know about this?

Cheers
;)

It wouldn't surprise me to see a couple of them show up.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a couple of them show up.

Is there something you want to tell us. ;)

That would be great to see!

I have also heard Ferrari and Aston Martin rumors...

I'm not a fan of the DP's but the Rolex GT series has been a lot of fun to watch this year.

I have also heard Ferrari and Aston Martin rumors...

I'm not a fan of the DP's but the Rolex GT series has been a lot of fun to watch this year.

Someone tried to run a DB9R in SWC GT last year, IIRC. But SCCA rules crippled it too much. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that someone would try to do the same in the Rolex series.

Yes SCCA's rules crippled a car built to run in a Euro GT series. :lol

Not entirely true. The Porsche 997 GT3 is competitive in both SCCA WC and FIA GT3, the Aston is competitive in FIA GT3 and was becoming very competitive in WC when the Autosport team pulled the plug on the campaign. Another season and (with Johny Mowlem) they would have been fighting for wins.

There are some big differences in allowed modifications, power, and development between the GT3's that run World Challenge, Grand-Am Cup, Grand-Am Rolex, and FIA GT3.

Yes SCCA's rules crippled a car built to run in a Euro GT series. :lol

:rolleyes

When the car was modified to meet SCCA SWC rules it was barely a back runner. They petitioned the SCCA for allowances to make it competative, but... :dunno

I know nothing of SCCA so I won't comment on how they do things.

As for GA, they just try to level the playing field. I've worked with them since 2002, so I really only have a short history with them. Knowing this, there is no conspiracy theory when it comes to their agenda. Maybe my rose colored lenses keeps me from seeing the negative things but I figured out long ago that busting your hump and applying some good engineering principles will get you to the front. This is why I am spending another month of R&D to figure out why my car was so slow at Barber. It's not the rules, it's just me.

"When the car was modified to meet SCCA SWC rules it was barely a back runner. They petitioned the SCCA for allowances to make it competative, but... "

At the beginning of the season they were off the pace, but as they got the car developed and set up for the Toyo's Johny Mowlem's car became more competitive, he missed out on a couple of potential podium finishes due to reliability issues.

"There are some big differences in allowed modifications, power, and development between the GT3's that run World Challenge, Grand-Am Cup, Grand-Am Rolex, and FIA GT3."

I realize there are differences. The WC and FIA GT3 cars however are fairly similar. GT3's dont run in GrandAm Cup, just road-based 997's.

997 Gt3 has been updated as well. The new car was revealed at a recent gt3 cup race in europe. It has more power, more torque, its wider, and has updated aero bits. If Ferrari/Aston and hopefully a v8 BMW come to Rolex, they'll have some good competition with the new cup car (assuming it does not get homologated much for the class, as I believe there is a factory built rolex spec now).

That is actually an update kit for the 997 FIA GT3 car, not legal for GrandAm. Porsche is now building a 997GT3 specifically for GrandAm GT.

It would be nice to see an M3 V8 but others have tried to convice GrandAm to allow them to run the E46 with the M5 V8, but have been turned down, so I dont see it happening.

It would be nice to see an M3 V8 but others have tried to convice GrandAm to allow them to run the E46 with the M5 V8, but have been turned down, so I dont see it happening.

I can understand not allowing the current E46 with a M5 V8 (even though Grand-Am allowed it in the past), but I don't see any reason why the E92 M3 with it's new 4.0 liter V8 won't be allowed if teams wish to run it.

A Riley built Prep 2, Z4 M Coupe with a S62 DP spec motor (with restrictors or different cams) would be neat.

A Riley built Prep 2, Z4 M Coupe with a S62 DP spec motor (with restrictors or different cams) would be neat.

Yes, yes it would. :buttrock

Porsche is now building a 997GT3 specifically for GrandAm GT.
they actually built about 5 cars (and made kits for a few others) in what they called "Daytona Spec". IIRC, it was just a basic improvement over the car, but it still made those cars a bit faster than the "old" GT3 Cups.
and now I want links to the updated GT3 Cup.:shifty
Jake

Porsche will build the GrandAm GT spec 997 to order. Porsche saw a market to make a little extra money by building the cars directly to GrandAm spec instead of selling the standard GT3 Cup to teams and having the teams change the cars to GrandAm GT spec (ie: five-lug hubs, endurance spec brakes, fuel cell etc)

They already sold a handful of those Grand-Am GT spec 997's. I'm sure they'll sell another batch this winter for Daytona/08 Season.

A Riley built Prep 2, Z4 M Coupe with a S62 DP spec motor (with restrictors or different cams) would be neat.

Neat? Only neat? It would be awesome! :buttrock

I wonder how much homolgation the Z4M chassis would need if any? I think the only thing it would really need is some aero tweaks (some of the louvers I believe would not fly in rolex). Toss an S62 in that thing, or maybe an m3 v8!

Trust me, Prep 2 is the way to go. You'll pull your hair out trying to make a Z4 competitive if it was a Prep 1 car. For Prep 2, if it was a P&M chassis, that would be icing on the cake.

I have not seen details or a comparison of the Riley and P&M chassis', is the Pratt chassis that much better?

How strict is Rolex with the Prep 2 regulations chassis/aero wise?

It seems with some of the engineering done on some aspects of the car, there would be no way a prep1 car would even come close.

The P&M chassis is really easy to work on, it is well documented and is repeatable. There are only two Rileys out there (the RX-8's) and they are nice cars too but they have to deal with a really light weight and an exhaust that is like a blast furnace. It's just that P&M does their homework when it comes to the whole package. We can talk about areo this and and chassis that, but if you have a car that is really hard to work on, you are going to struggle.

A Prep 1 car can be made to work (just look at Porsche) but for a long term investment a Prep 2 car is the way to go. Take a Prep 1 can and give it two years of heavy duty racing. The chassis is spent and it becomes a flexy flier. A Prep 2 car (expecially one that has to weigh over 2800 lob) can be built to last. I work on a car that has tens of thousands of race and test miles on it and it acts like a brand new Prep 1 car (when it comes to setup).

We had an accident at Lime Rock this year. The Porsche that T-Boned us had to be re-tubbed. The GTO just needed to have parts bolted back on. The suspension sheared off but the pickup points were just fine. All you had to do was ut in the correct number of shims and place the pickup points back on the same number (this is the well documented part). Check the geometry and a few other things. The only difference from before and after (when it comes to the accident) was one shim (the are even color coded).

When it came to the BMW, I was constantly chasing that car. When it was wrecked, it was at least two days of bending this or bending that to make it work. Then, It was never really perfect. You had to compromise on many things (ease of service, suspension geometry, etc...). If you are a team with plenty of money, you can make a Prep 1 car work (non-Porsche) but for the rest of us who don't have that luxury, we need to keep a car for a few years so we can make all of the payments on it.

I have not seen details or a comparison of the Riley and P&M chassis', is the Pratt chassis that much better?

How strict is Rolex with the Prep 2 regulations chassis/aero wise?

It seems with some of the engineering done on some aspects of the car, there would be no way a prep1 car would even come close.

Pretty hard to say. The Pontiac's that are winning are Pratt and Millers, and the RX8's that have won this season have been Rileys.

The Rolex series is going to tinker to keep any car from running away with the class. It is strict in the sense of tech and such. It is loose in the sense that it will listen to petitions to change the rules if you have an uncompetitive car. The rules on aero are pretty specific, and the minimum ride height is tall enough to ruin all of the really fun stuff.

Pretty crazy that the top two spots in the championship are held by Porsche cup cars. You would think that the Prep 2 tube framed purpose built racecars would be dominating.

What is the cost of a new built P&M or Riley? It has to be more than a 997 cup car.

Pretty crazy that the top two spots in the championship are held by Porsche cup cars. You would think that the Prep 2 tube framed purpose built racecars would be dominating.

I would think that the rules would be written in such a way as to make the cars as close to even as possible so that the best drivers and teams end up winning. It's the NASCAR formula...no one is going to be allowed to have a dominate setup for very long.

That said, the Prep2 cars are probably easier to work on, repair, setup, and cheaper to run...so there's a definite advantage to them even if they don't have a speed advantage over Prep1.

I have also heard Ferrari and Aston Martin rumors...

I'm not a fan of the DP's but the Rolex GT series has been a lot of fun to watch this year.

This is true. GT class have shown some great action lately.

What is the cost of a new built P&M or Riley? It has to be more than a 997 cup car.$375k for a GXPR as per Leighton Reese. I wasn't in a lengthy discussion, but I saw him at Laguna Seca, he showed me the cars, let me take pictures, and threw that number out.

$375k for a GXPR as per Leighton Reese. I wasn't in a lengthy discussion, but I saw him at Laguna Seca, he showed me the cars, let me take pictures, and threw that number out.

That's about right. $330 for the RX8. Not sure how much for a Porsche these days.

B Watts is quite correct to point out that there are some advantages to a tube frame car that have nothing to do with speed.

$375K gets you the car and a huge amount of spares. Also, you get excellent tech support from P&M and Katech.

I was told that you can get a race ready Grand-Am, spec GT3 for $175K. That's not bad as you even get a Porsche truck full of spares at each race. Your cost is lower as you don't need to carry around a ton of spares.

Porsche provides the best value. They have had customer programs in place for many years. If BMW did the same thing, we'd dee plenty of them out there too.

Porsche provides the best value. They have had customer programs in place for many years. If BMW did the same thing, we'd dee plenty of them out there too.

"If BMW did the same thing..." in THE USA is the real problem. The support and research done for the european series, specifically WTCC is as much as what Porsche does for their cars.

If WCT turned into something like WTCC I think it would be awesome, but there is not enough following in the US, or Mfg's who want to fund such a program...even though we could potentially take WTCC exact platforms/cars and use their rules for a US series. With big named drivers, all factory support/built cars, and good promotion, I bet it would be huge.

Slightly OT:

For those of us who are not insiders, what's Prep1 versus Prep2?

For those of us who are not insiders, what's Prep1 versus Prep2?

In most simple terms:

Prep1: Built from stock chassis.

Prep2: Built on a tube frame chassis.

In most simple terms:

Prep1: Built from stock chassis.

Prep2: Built on a tube frame chassis.

Thx! :thumbup:

$375K gets you the car and a huge amount of spares. Also, you get excellent tech support from P&M and Katech.

I was told that you can get a race ready Grand-Am, spec GT3 for $175K. That's not bad as you even get a Porsche truck full of spares at each race. Your cost is lower as you don't need to carry around a ton of spares.

Porsche provides the best value. They have had customer programs in place for many years. If BMW did the same thing, we'd dee plenty of them out there too.

This is only sort of true. Some teams will carry spares, and all teams will carry some stuff that they are going to time cycle. I think there is a lot of value in not having to be part of the captive Porsche engine rebuild program, and in not having to re-tub a car every time you hit a rear corner. The Porsche's are convenient and well developed, but I think you are making a lot of assumptions when you say they are the best value. The cheapest to buy is not always the cheapest to race.

By the way, if $375 gets you the car and a huge amount of spares it means one of two things. 1. The price has dropped a lot in the last month, which is possible. 2. A ton of spares means an extra set of rims.

BMW NA has somewhere between no and next to no interest in this kind of racing. It's a shame, but that's their choice.

This is only sort of true. Some teams will carry spares, and all teams will carry some stuff that they are going to time cycle. I think there is a lot of value in not having to be part of the captive Porsche engine rebuild program, and in not having to re-tub a car every time you hit a rear corner. The Porsche's are convenient and well developed, but I think you are making a lot of assumptions when you say they are the best value. The cheapest to buy is not always the cheapest to race.
+1
I saw some figures about the GT3 Cup race at Sebring this year (Dave can attest to the rain), where there was the big accident at the start. IIRC, they said that re-tubbing a GT3 was $100k, for just the shell.
I think the advantages of racing a Porsche in Grand-Am are there but quickly get lost when you have to pay their prices for maintaince issues or in the event of an accident.
Jake

This is only sort of true. Some teams will carry spares, and all teams will carry some stuff that they are going to time cycle. I think there is a lot of value in not having to be part of the captive Porsche engine rebuild program, and in not having to re-tub a car every time you hit a rear corner. The Porsche's are convenient and well developed, but I think you are making a lot of assumptions when you say they are the best value. The cheapest to buy is not always the cheapest to race.

By the way, if $375 gets you the car and a huge amount of spares it means one of two things. 1. The price has dropped a lot in the last month, which is possible. 2. A ton of spares means an extra set of rims.

BMW NA has somewhere between no and next to no interest in this kind of racing. It's a shame, but that's their choice.


Well, there must be a reason why there are so many GT3's out there. I guess that I have talked to a number of teams that run them and I was just summing up what they have told me. After two years of running in GT, I have talked to plenty of people.

As for the $375K and a ton of spares (they didn't use the word "ton" but it sure looked like a long list), I was only going by what I was told by GM when we started running the GTO. Maybe, the price (and spares package) has changed since April.

07 997 RSR ALMS package Zero timed is for sale for ~$425

Well, there must be a reason why there are so many GT3's out there. I guess that I have talked to a number of teams that run them and I was just summing up what they have told me. After two years of running in GT, I have talked to plenty of people.

As for the $375K and a ton of spares (they didn't use the word "ton" but it sure looked like a long list), I was only going by what I was told by GM when we started running the GTO. Maybe, the price (and spares package) has changed since April.

About two months ago when I expressed interest in buying a Pontiac I was quoted $360 for a car with no motor. I have no clue if different teams can get different deals.

No question that Porsche has some things going for it. You can go to Daytona with the lowest initial cash outlay with a Porsche. They are fast, reliable and available. Also there are some people (rent drivers) who will pay to drive a Porsche but not a Pontiac or Mazda. They have strength's and weakness like all the others. Given the choice of running a Prep 1 or Prep 2 car I'd rather run a Prep 2 car personally.

There were several reasons that I wanted to run a Mazda. One was simply that I wanted to run the lightest car allowed. I have gotten spoiled by driving formula cars and just don't want to drive a tank. I also want to run a car where I feel like I won't be treated too unfavorably compared with the factory teams. Mazda has treated me fairly. I'd be lying if I didn't say the wail of a three rotor has a lot of appeal too.

FWIW I was a huge Porsche fan until they started building SUV's. Now they are just another car company to me.

...I'd be lying if I didn't say the wail of a three rotor has a lot of appeal too.
...

Pause:

I can't get enough of hearing the Speed Source cars going around the track.

Continue....

The RX-8 is a great car. I've always agreed that that's the car to run. It's just that there is a reason why there are so many Porsches.

I expect the RX-8's to do a great job again next year. We've been getting our butts kicked by them all year. Having more of them out on the track will make it just more difficult for the rest of us. That place that builds those cars knows what they are doing. The guys that drive those cars are good too. I don't know where they came from (maybe Formula Mazda or Spec Miata) but they can sure drive the wheels off of those cars.

I am currently building a prep 1 Corvette. Prep 2 would be easier. Seeing the Sahlen's cars and the Stevenson Car, it would be nice to have almost free reign on where certain things go, and not be restrained by a stock chassis. Our car is allowed in either, but we had the brand new chassis ready to go for World Challenge, so it made more sense to go that route. Time and parts are more plentiful than money in my garage.
It still hasn't been decided if we will make Utah.

It still hasn't been decided if we will make Utah.Better hurry up, the entry cutoff was August 16th.