Just got the crate opened up a few minutes ago, and I snapped a couple of pics. It's an S54 bottom end prepped by the guys at Evosport to be much more durable than the typical S54 - custom rods, custom pistons, custom bearings, and the piece de resistance, the AEM:

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/S54block1.jpg

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/S54block2.jpg

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/S54block3.jpg

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/S54block4.jpg

http://www.roadracetech.com/images/links/S54block5.jpg

Now it's time for the Watts machine to REALLY start putting down some killer lap times! They're upgrading from the tired S50B32 Euro engine, so this will be one helluva change.

hmm.. no knife edging the crank? (or at least it does not look like it)


but other than that, I'm adding that to my x-mas list.. maybe santa will bring me one, because i cant afford something like that!

oh.. and one word... HOT!

Doesn't look like a turbo package...

Doesn't look like a turbo package...

You mean you wouldn't turbo something that has pistons sticking up above the block? ;)

No time to develop such a beast. If we ever go Turbo, it will something like a M42. :D

They're upgrading from the tired S50B32 Euro engine, so this will be one helluva change.

Amazing how much better the S54 is than the S50B32...going from a stock bottom-end with built head S50B32 to a built bottom-end and stock head S54 and expecting to gain power and a better torque curve. Here's to losing the battle of the straights by 10 car lengths instead of 20! :buttrock

I want your tired Euro engine!!

I want your tired Euro engine!!

It's gone under the knife for a facelift. It will be back, better than before and ready to win some more races.

'Bout time!

Haha, losing the battle by 10 instead of 20...I think you'll get a god jump and keep up...outbrake and then scoot away mid corner :)

Looks awesome, can't wait to see how that chassis finally does with a real motor!!

Nice looking powerplant! Should boost the hp and reliability factor. Some questions from a curious onlooker:


What's the compression?
How friendly is the AEM set-up?
What intake manifold will be employed?
What's the designed RPM powerband and limit?
Why no porting/re-work on the S54 head?


If you don't want to answer any or all of these questions, I understand completely. :)

We have also looked at an M42 and thought about turbo possibilities... its just not that lightweight of a powerplant. :(

http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/142053371-M-1.jpg
http://www.vorshlag.smugmug.com/photos/142053393-M.jpg

427# - 68# trans = ~359# M42 engine
Dressed LS1 V8 = 457# (which is similar to the S52's weight)

We've wondered if it even makes sense to run an M42 over the V8 or an S52/S54/N54 in one of our XP cars. We can build more power/reliability using the LS1 V8 for a lot less than a turbo M42, but the weight rules for that class favor the smaller displacement turbo... The N54 also has some merit (Mg/Al block).

Why not just run a C5/C6 :)

A turbo M42 would rock in a C5!

Looking great guys. All you need now is one of these!
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/6112/2771582740089932451S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2771582740089932451rWvhrI)

Looking great guys. All you need now is one of these!
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/6112/2771582740089932451S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2771582740089932451rWvhrI)

Got a dyno to prove it would make any worthwhile power? ;)

Got a dyno to prove it would make any worthwhile power? ;)

It was only 10rwhp off of Croteaus motor at function tuned so it definitely picked up some pep. Better then the 4" piece of pipe I had with a filter shoved on the end. Quite ghetto. Im sure the Watts' have an airbox laid out for the beast :evil2

Looking great guys. All you need now is one of these!
http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/6112/2771582740089932451S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2771582740089932451rWvhrI)
A hockey stick to hold the hood up? :D

Im sure the Watts' have an airbox laid out for the beast :evil2

Just planning to use the stock box for now. Everyone I've heard from regarding mostly "stock" Grand-Am style builds has said the additiona of the box added very little power for the $$. Really, the biggest negative to the stock box right now is just the weight.

Just planning to use the stock box for now. Everyone I've heard from regarding mostly "stock" Grand-Am style builds has said the additiona of the box added very little power for the $$. Really, the biggest negative to the stock box right now is just the weight.

I know the big CSL airbox ala Stickley only really works from 7800 and up. Since I only go to 8000-8200 on occasion, John sent me the 140mm necked down version of the airbox which makes much more power below the 7800-8k area. We'll see how it does at Tremblant this weekend. Will have in-car for once!

So I've decided to abandon my E46 track car build (the supposedly "clean" chassis I went to pick up had been practically sawz-alled in half! Grr!), and will be swapping the S54 from my donor car into my E36 M3. I'll be following this thread closely!

Seems like standalone is the way to go, and I saw that you've got vanos delete and mechanical throttle parts. What's the plan for oil cooling/pressures?

James, I'll let the Watts car be the test bench, and I may be coming your way soon thereafter! (Ohlins this winter for sure!). Max

What's the plan for oil cooling/pressures?

Planning to use the stock Euro setup that mounts below the radiator that we've been using on our past S52's and S50's.

So I've decided to abandon my E46 track car build (the supposedly "clean" chassis I went to pick up had been practically sawz-alled in half! Grr!), and will be swapping the S54 from my donor car into my E36 M3. I'll be following this thread closely!

Seems like standalone is the way to go, and I saw that you've got vanos delete and mechanical throttle parts. What's the plan for oil cooling/pressures?

James, I'll let the Watts car be the test bench, and I may be coming your way soon thereafter! (Ohlins this winter for sure!). Max

Sorry to hear about the E46...if you still want one Matt Groner is the guy to call, he can hook you up with awesome cars.

Congrats on the Ohlins, you'll kick yourself for not going to them sooner ;)

As for the Watts car being a test bench, no need really, Evosport has pretty solid setups down, and they should be able to help you with whatever you eed.

Congrats team Watts! Looks awesome. Should be a killer package for your chassis.

James, let Barry know that I'm waiting to hear back about my stuff...if it's ready yet.:D

Planning to use the stock Euro setup that mounts below the radiator that we've been using on our past S52's and S50's.

I run the huge Fluidyne oil cooler under the radiator and have seen oil temps of 190 for 30min races in 90degree heat at Summit. It also has a 1+quart capacity so it cools much more. Dont have an accusump and havent had any big drops in OP in braking or turns according to my AIM MXL data thus far.

Now it's time for the Watts machine to REALLY start putting down some killer lap times! They're upgrading from the tired S50B32 Euro engine, so this will be one helluva change.

In time for O'fest? That would make things a lot more interesting. :)
I'm hoping for some good Mod battles at the front.

Carlos.

In time for O'fest? That would make things a lot more interesting. :)

We'll have at least one test day and Road Atlanta to make sure it's ready to go before O'fest.

Are you thinking a 3.91 or 4.10 gear? And any sort of sump?

Also, what do you need for the AEM other than what's in the box?

Think a bit higher with the gearing ;)

If you get AEM with the generic harness, you have to put connectors on for your sensors. Making a wire harness is not hard...making a GOOD wiring harness takes some skill. Don't skimp on the grade of electrical components you use. High grade heat shrink tubing, mil spec (or similar quality) connectors, etc. Couple bucks into the harness will pay for itself immediately. Nothing worse than trying to track down a tiny electrical bug.

Plenum worth plenty of power. The 6" version is good and usable for a stockish engine as well.

Brad - I thought you said the AEM had Vanos covered now, but that looks like a blockoff plate?

Plenum worth plenty of power. The 6" version is good and usable for a stockish engine as well.

Ok James, how much? :stickoutt

Seriously though, Sunbelt has said the plenums aren't worth much ever since they've been building motors for Grand-Am Cup. Have they changed their tune now?

Brad - I thought you said the AEM had Vanos covered now, but that looks like a blockoff plate?

I've been investigating this as well on my own, but I'd be interested to hear what Brad has to say since Evosport was working on it directly with AEM in the past.

Are you thinking a 3.91 or 4.10 gear? And any sort of sump?

4.45 with a 6-speed. With the higher rev limit of the S54 over what we ran the S50B32 at, we could probably step up to one of the Motorsport ratios (5.12?), but the cost is prohibitive. Hoping to gain some torque with the S54, so the 4.45 might be plenty for those low speed 3rd gear turns.

We'll run an Accusump on the motor more than likely.

Ok James, how much? :stickoutt

Seriously though, Sunbelt has said the plenums aren't worth much ever since they've been building motors for Grand-Am Cup. Have they changed their tune now?

They were worth about 10 in a GAC engine I think. But that was limited on airflow - headers. I assume you are using a better header. Move more air... All this stuff adds up. I have some interesting stuff coming soon - you will get to see some of it firsthand before you buy :)

Has anyone done any resonance tuning yet? I bet you have more to gain from resonance tuning the header/intake than what they are providing separately.

I think the Vanos is good if you can spend the time tuning it. You also have to factor in you now have more moving parts, and more things to go wrong. PTG and many european S54 teams ran locked and were very successful.

Mid range Vanos can definitely offer some benefits, although there is a cost, just like everything else.

I think Stickley is running locked, which is kind of a surprise.

Bryan- Gosh darn it!!! I have been at evosport for the past few days/weeks continually trying to stop that motor of yours from shipping!! I guess Brad snuck it out under my nose - he will pay for that come O'Fest time.

James - I ran locked Vanose for a year and a half and never felt like I missed it. Amazing motor, with amazing powerband with AEM.

Bryan - you are going to love that motor!

PTG and many european S54 teams ran locked and were very successful.

Lots of cars have bee successful on leafsprings and drum brakes. I can tell you for sure when the vanos is tuned CORRECTLY it is worth time in a lap. We can show dynos all day long, but that is the real world side and I am sticking to it.

James, did you read my entire post? I agree it can definitely be beneficial, but its a compromise. More moving parts, more tuning, more expense. The application will determine if its needed.
Mid range Vanos can definitely offer some benefits, although there is a cost, just like everything else.



And don't diss the transverse leaf spring, there are still some very fast cars using this design :)

Lots of cars have bee successful on leafsprings and drum brakes. I can tell you for sure when the vanos is tuned CORRECTLY it is worth time in a lap. We can show dynos all day long, but that is the real world side and I am sticking to it.

Show me a mod clas car, running AEM or Motec or Pectel or any other EMS that you can quantitatively take a club spec driver and enable or disable vanos on a properly tuned S54 and have it make a lick of difference.

The variables introduced by the amateur driver are larger than vanos enabled/disabled. I'm sticking to that.

James, did you read my entire post? I agree it can definitely be beneficial, but its a compromise. More moving parts, more tuning, more expense. The application will determine if its needed.

Not all about you Steve - I was also responding to John :)

Show me a mod clas car, running AEM or Motec or Pectel or any other EMS that you can quantitatively take a club spec driver and enable or diable vanos on a properly tuned S54 and have it make a lick of difference.

The variables introduced by the amateur driver are larger than vanos enabled/disabled. I'm sticking to that.

Depends on the driver - there are more than a few club drivers that are at the high end of the range and can put down consistently repeatable times and would benefit. I would in fact say that the better club drivers overlap with plenty of GA Cup drivers, where this is widely known to make a difference. I actually thought better equipment = better all the way around - if you are only an average driver, by definiteion your average will be higher... I don't typically hear too many racers saying "nah, that is good enough for me." In fact, my preference is to blame the shortcoming of the car!

And back to my original response - I thought AEM was able to control Vanos, which was very interesting, because I know there is a benefit, and with AEM it would be inexpensive.

Lol, well you quoted me, so I assumed...and you know its all about the Jaffster! ;)

I definitely agree about the driver skill coming into play, to some extent.

Driver X with average skill level can take his Mod car to 95%. That last 5% is that the cars shortcomings or the driver? 9 times out of 10 its the driver, if we want to believe it or not lol Thats why there are data engineers to show what the drivers are really doing, and show where they can improve to take advantage of the car.

The car has X potential, and if the driver can only take 95% of that potential, when you extend that potential to say 105%, that does not automatically give the driver an extra 5% of skill.

The car will be going faster in braking, cornering, and straight line. Once the driver learns the "upgraded" cars limits, and adapts, he might move his potential up...but definitely should not be assumed. If that was the case we can all race F1 on par.

Its like the Horsepower example. To be blunt, it takes a lot of balls to be able to drive a car with a lot of power, especially if it has aero grip. Driving the car near the limit "in control" is what makes fast drivers fast.

I think in WCT you see this kind of skill, where you have relatively low hp, low weight, not much aero, mostly momentum, and the drivers just manhandle the cars. Its very impressive.

Got a dyno to prove it would make any worthwhile power? ;)
I do - it doesn't show any gains on the dyno.

It DOES show some gain at higher RPM's (almost 8K and above).

Just planning to use the stock box for now. Everyone I've heard from regarding mostly "stock" Grand-Am style builds has said the additiona of the box added very little power for the $$. Really, the biggest negative to the stock box right now is just the weight.
Yep.

I know the big CSL airbox ala Stickley only really works from 7800 and up. Since I only go to 8000-8200 on occasion, John sent me the 140mm necked down version of the airbox which makes much more power below the 7800-8k area. We'll see how it does at Tremblant this weekend. Will have in-car for once!
Correct. The smaller neck will not make any difference. It is the volume in the plenum. Air pressure is air pressure. You are getting the same pressure pre-TB's with either neck. The only way you will change the power band significantly is different sized or shapped tulips or plenum space.

Planning to use the stock Euro setup that mounts below the radiator that we've been using on our past S52's and S50's.
Not enough. I have the list of answers for you coming shortly. Think bigger though.

Are you thinking a 3.91 or 4.10 gear? And any sort of sump?

Also, what do you need for the AEM other than what's in the box?
Just what is there. We have many levels of kits for the S54 though, depending on level of build and budget.

Plenum worth plenty of power. The 6" version is good and usable for a stockish engine as well.

Brad - I thought you said the AEM had Vanos covered now, but that looks like a blockoff plate?
James,

Have you PERSONALLY tested any of these airboxes? The reason that I ask is that I have tested 4 on street cars and race cars. Not any gain on the dyno with any of them. I have also had LONG conversations with Jim at sunbelt that confirm our gains and what we have seen with different mods.

The AEM has the ability, but we cannot release that till at least SEMA. The pectel we have can do it right now.

However, we see very little gain in this. Again, confirmed by Jim at sunbelt. In fact, to paraphrase Jim "if the driver/car combo is not able to be kept the powerband, then the vanos is an advantage, however, if the driver/car combo is able then there is little value." This we concur with.

We have non vanos dyno's that make as much torque as vanos tuned dyno's.

So the upside is minimal from our very real findings over the last 4 years of S54 tuning. No to the downside, the vanos oiling system is prone to fail and is heavy. You can take 15lbs off the top of the motor and limit one failure point.

Remember, the S54 has a lot more displacement then the WC motors you guys are running, so I would agree that vanos is more important to a WCT motor.

So net/net for the average GOOD club guy, the pro's out weigh the con's in my opinion.

I've been investigating this as well on my own, but I'd be interested to hear what Brad has to say since Evosport was working on it directly with AEM in the past.
See above! :D

Lots of cars have bee successful on leafsprings and drum brakes. I can tell you for sure when the vanos is tuned CORRECTLY it is worth time in a lap. We can show dynos all day long, but that is the real world side and I am sticking to it.
LOL. Agree - real world, we have been building, tuning and racing S54's as long as PTG and sunbelt, have shared ideas and parts back and forth with engineers from both and this is what we choose to run on our cars. Is it black and white, nope, but we have some real experience doing it and it works.

I cannot make public my relationships with some GAC teams also we have been involved in, but there ARE more then one GAC and Rolex car that has won a race with locked vanos.

ANDY - have fun and see you in Tejas!

Thanks
Brad

VANOs, more importantly PROPER TUNING of VANOs has made a heckuva difference in the power output of my S50B28 (down-sized version of S50B32) DMod powerplant. The carbon box DESIGN has a LOT to do with how much of a gain (if any) comes with the $$$ spent to put the bling under the hood....if paired with the right exhaust, the right cam profile, etc.

It almost sounds as if some folks that haven't taken advantage of what VANOs has to offer (for whatever reason) are saying that I suck as a DM driver because I've elected to utilize the improved performance versus the lesser locked cam setups that are more commonly available. Maybe a case of some folks reading too much into their own press releases? Trust me, for road racing with a stock based engine-chassis-trans combo, properly tuned VANOs is very worthwhile.....its only that it can get pretty expensive to make it happen and super-expensive if mistakes are made during the trial & error learning curve necessary for some to get it right. Thankfully, the folks at Specialty Automotive got it right with assistance from ABL Original Parts, Al Valenzo, Sunbelt, and Performance Tune so we were never faced with picking-up pieces of oily shrapnel from the dyno room floor or the racetrack pavement. Now, if I can just get the chassis repair work completed to finally get back out there instead of all this bench racing! ;)

Congrats, should be awesome. You cant just post a teaser pic tho, now you're obligated to provide pics of the entire build. :D

...So the tired S50B32 wont be for sale?

Evosport make a AEM kit specifically for a S54 into a e36 chassis ????

VANOs............

Now, if I can just get the chassis repair work completed to finally get back out there instead of all this bench racing! ;)
Mike, this discussion is about the S54 motor, not any other M or S 50 or 52, and 3.2L not your 2.8L. Glad to have your data point though.

Agreed that on earlier motors and smaller displacement motors, Vanos has a great advantage.

Evosport make a AEM kit specifically for a S54 into a e36 chassis ????
Yep. Actually we have a few AEM kits and a couple of Pectel options.

Thanks
Brad

This is a fascinating thread that has covered so much territory.

(Actually Bryan did bring up comparison of S50B32 and his new S54 project, so the euro spin Mike Akard brought up was introduced a bit earlier)

I think that its virtually impossible to make a blanket statement that addresses the merit of keeping vanos alive on an S54 (or an S50B32 for that matter). There are simply too many variables at play...... Is it an engine with extended powerband or not, is it a team that can play with gearbox ratios and diff ratios for each track appropriately, or not, is it team that can afford to throw significant funds at an active vanos solution plus more for dyno time to tune it, or, a team that can not? Does the driver even have the skills to keep the engine in the proper powerband if its narrow?

At the club level of racing, I don't think 15 lb of gears and hydraulics on the engine are the difference between first and second place within a class. I would think a wider powerband with more torque and HP in the lower rpm should help most drivers. I find it hard to believe that keeping vanos somehow decreases the power you can make enough to lose a race too.

I thought that the Bryan had tried locked cam S50B32 at one point with SEM, and I think he's tried it with vanos active now too. All other things being equal, which did he prefer? (may not be able to answer I realize if all things were not otherwise equal)

As in anything else, it is the complete package that needs to work together. What works for one team, one series, one engine doesn't apply to everyone.

I'm quite sure that cars that can run custom gearbox ratios and custom diff ratios for each track, and have the resources to know whats best for each situation, and the time and energy to tune for specific venues would be far better served taking advantage of locked cams, less complexity, less weight, custom programming.... and all that comes with that approach.

If you're running a stock US 5 or 6 speed, one diff for the season, stock valve train limiting rpm to stockish numbers, and want your motor to last for a couple of seasons... two things are apparant. First, most likely, someone with a bigger budget is going to kick your ass, and second, you'll probably be better off with vanos active.

Just my 02 worth.

Mike, this discussion is about the S54 motor, not any other M or S 50 or 52, and 3.2L not your 2.8L. Glad to have your data point though.

Agreed that on earlier motors and smaller displacement motors, Vanos has a great advantage.



Sorry Brad, I meant no offense toward Evosport (or anyone else for that matter) in stating my opinion about properly tuned VANOs being an advantage...as well as the right carbon airbox and exhaust system. :)

I certainly can't find any fault with the S54 engine build project other than having a difference of personal opinion and clearly nothing wrong with the top quality materials, skilled machine work, or craftsmanship shown/discussed for the latest, greatest track monster for ABW Racing! :)

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that Bryan & Andy were fans of keeping VANOs active after some of the comments that were floating around last season...So, I chimed-in with my $.02 after reading that drivers that want VANOs must be less skilled than those that don't. I'm very glad to see Evosport and others bringing all of these great goodies to Club Racing....just wish I could be out there racing too! :):):)