I have some front dive planes for my IP car but I'm still scratching my head on how to attach them to the bumper.

I've seen people attach them with rivets. What are the other options?

Thanks.

seems like everyone in IP or JP is getting them. what's the big deal? What do they do, and can you feel a difference?

seems like everyone in IP or JP is getting them. what's the big deal? What do they do, and can you feel a difference?

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=789027&highlight=dive+planes

Not sure about attachment. I dont run em :)

seems like everyone in IP or JP is getting them. what's the big deal? What do they do, and can you feel a difference?

Monkey see, monkey do? Keeping up with the Jones'?

As for what they do, the add a bit more front downforce. Many have commented that they can feel a difference.

Monkey see, monkey do? Keeping up with the Jones'?

As for what they do, the add a bit more front downforce. Many have commented that they can feel a difference.



I think they just look cool. :D

I think they just look cool. :D

That's why we put them on our car!

That's why we put them on our car!

figures....ricer :D

figures....ricer :D

That's Mr. Ricer to you.

That's Mr. Ricer to you.

Wouldn't that be "Mr. Ricer, Sir?"

Chris

Guess I better order those as well. James!!

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=789027&highlight=dive+planes

Not sure about attachment. I dont run em :)


Do the ones from the vendors come with attachment hardware? It looks like the pieces are not predrilled and the mounting options are open to the owner.

I made my own so I want to be sure I'm drilling the holes correctly before I start hacking them up.

I figure a small bolt or cap head screw with a backing plate or washer should do it. Otherwise I can make a small aluminum backing plate for inside the bumper for added support. I'll figure it out this weekend.

Do the ones from the vendors come with attachment hardware? It looks like the pieces are not predrilled and the mounting options are open to the owner.

I made my own so I want to be sure I'm drilling the holes correctly before I start hacking them up.

I figure a small bolt or cap head screw with a backing plate or washer should do it. Otherwise I can make a small aluminum backing plate for inside the bumper for added support. I'll figure it out this weekend.


Vince,

They come marked where to drill them. They also come with button head machine screws and nut plates the are riveted to the bumper cover. Mine are on there pretty well. I haven't been able to break or move them with my shins...:D

When you rip off the dive planes from the guy who spent the bucks to design them and have them fabbed up in the hopes of getting a meager return on the investment, do you want him to install them too???

I find it dispicable the way things work in the race world, everyone rips everyone else off, claiming that it's "their" product. These dive planes are a perfect example, as were my solid motor mounts. And the major offenders are the vendors, I won't mention any names, but you know who you are........... Remember, what goes around, comes around.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS2

When you rip off the dive planes from the guy who spent the bucks to design them and have them fabbed up in the hopes of getting a meager return on the investment, do you want him to install them too???

I find it dispicable the way things work in the race world, everyone rips everyone else off, claiming that it's "their" product. These dive planes are a perfect example, as were my solid motor mounts. And the major offenders are the vendors, I won't mention any names, but you know who you are........... Remember, what goes around, comes around.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS2


Is this directed at me? Return on investment? Huh?

I'm asking about attachment methods for my race car. I'm not sure why that is so offensive.:confused

Dive planes are a pretty old design, used on many types of racecars.

They sacrifice drag for front end downforce. On these cars you really can go crazy with drag on items like this and not kill yourself. But when you have 8-10 little things creating .05% of drag...things add up.

Plus, downforce is not always going to make you faster. Its really about the balance of the car, and how the additional grip will either make you faster, slower or the same.

Where did you get the dive planes, vinnymac??

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2

Where did you get the dive planes, vinnymac??

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS 2


As I posted earlier...I made them for my race car.




I made my own so I want to be sure I'm drilling the holes correctly before I start hacking them up.

James, where did you get your dive plane idea from?

I'm surprised noone is selling BMW e36/E46 VG kits yet :)

I saw one e36 at lime rock a couple weeks ago with what he thought were VG's, but man, not only would they be illegal in BMWCCA (or ay other series that mandates under roof height), but all he had were basically 6 antenna shark fin things on the roof...absolutely doing nothing but creating drag :)

When you rip off the dive planes from the guy who spent the bucks to design them and have them fabbed up in the hopes of getting a meager return on the investment, do you want him to install them too???

I find it dispicable the way things work in the race world, everyone rips everyone else off, claiming that it's "their" product. These dive planes are a perfect example, as were my solid motor mounts. And the major offenders are the vendors, I won't mention any names, but you know who you are........... Remember, what goes around, comes around.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS2

I think James is trying to say that he invented the internet... :)

When you rip off the dive planes from the guy who spent the bucks to design them and have them fabbed up in the hopes of getting a meager return on the investment, do you want him to install them too???

I find it dispicable the way things work in the race world, everyone rips everyone else off, claiming that it's "their" product. These dive planes are a perfect example, as were my solid motor mounts. And the major offenders are the vendors, I won't mention any names, but you know who you are........... Remember, what goes around, comes around.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS2

It's a little early in the afternoon, isn't it James? You are not claiming you invented "dive planes" are you Mr. Gore?

Here are my "JMT Track Cars" Inspired Evosport produced dive planes: :)

201332

201333

201334

I am so confused.

Did I open up a can of worms with my simple mounting/attachment question? :(

I am so confused.

Did I open up a can of worms with my simple mounting/attachment question? :(

Nope, don't sweat it. You can always use some liquid nails...:D

When you rip off the dive planes from the guy who spent the bucks to design them and have them fabbed up in the hopes of getting a meager return on the investment, do you want him to install them too???

I find it dispicable the way things work in the race world, everyone rips everyone else off, claiming that it's "their" product. These dive planes are a perfect example, as were my solid motor mounts. And the major offenders are the vendors, I won't mention any names, but you know who you are........... Remember, what goes around, comes around.

James Posig
JMT TrackCars
#231 GTS2

Don't worry - I doubt anyone has properly designed any dive planes for these cars. Or rear wing . . . or diffuser . . .

Don't worry - I doubt anyone has properly designed any dive planes for these cars. Or rear wing . . . or diffuser . . .

That's all too true. I know I'd charge quite a bit to do the full package of getting the 3D point cloud to surface modeling then to CFD/sculptor and wind tunnel test program for one car configuration complete with ride height and wing angle aero mapping. This is what it would take to have a good idea of which wing, splitter, belly, diffuser, fences, dive plates, ect. would work on a given car. So unless you do a similar type of test/design program, then you just don't know what works and what doesn't.

To be sure, the dive plates work best with cars that develope quite a bit of downforce from proper underside design including a flat belly pan and proper diffuser and super low side skirts. After all, the downforce produced directly (that is, on plate's area) by pressure differential on the actual dive plates is not very large. Dive plates help to produce downstream downforce thanks to the properly placed vortical flow directed down the sides of the car in such a way to discourage ingress air from moving to the lower pressure region under the car.

Nope, don't sweat it. You can always use some liquid nails...:D


...or JB Weld. LOL. :D

That's all too true. I know I'd charge quite a bit to do the full package of getting the 3D point cloud to surface modeling then to CFD/sculptor and wind tunnel test program for one car configuration complete with ride height and wing angle aero mapping. This is what it would take to have a good idea of which wing, splitter, belly, diffuser, fences, dive plates, ect. would work on a given car. So unless you do a similar type of test/design program, then you just don't know what works and what doesn't.

To be sure, the dive plates work best with cars that develope quite a bit of downforce from proper underside design including a flat belly pan and proper diffuser and super low side skirts. After all, the downforce produced directly (that is, on plate's area) by pressure differential on the actual dive plates is not very large. Dive plates help to produce downstream downforce thanks to the properly placed vortical flow directed down the sides of the car in such a way to discourage ingress air from moving to the lower pressure region under the car.

You have sculptor :eek: Must be nice . . .

I used rivots with backing plates on the inside of the bumper, rock solid

It's a little early in the afternoon, isn't it James? You are not claiming you invented "dive planes" are you Mr. Gore?
Worse then that, he apparently invented solid motor mounts! LOL

Don't worry - I doubt anyone has properly designed any dive planes for these cars. Or rear wing . . . or diffuser . . .
Yes, our engineer who came from Indy Car racing (with real prolonged experience in aero, suspension and motors) has NO clue! LOL

And since you never say who you are, I am guessing an engineering student at SLO?

Engineering theory is great. Even better are the engineers that actually work and succeed in the world of motorsports! We are lucky to have one of those!

Worse then that, he apparently invented solid motor mounts! LOL


Yes, our engineer who came from Indy Car racing (with real prolonged experience in aero, suspension and motors) has NO clue! LOL

And since you never say who you are, I am guessing an engineering student at SLO?

Engineering theory is great. Even better are the engineers that actually work and succeed in the world of motorsports! We are lucky to have one of those!

To the best of my knowledge, they don't use dive plates in Indy car racing and just being an engineer in a given field doesn't necessarily mean he could give you a definitive answer on the best way to mount an aero device such as a dive plate.

However, your post seems a thinly veiled attempt at marketing one of your company's resources to this forum.

It wasn't a thinly veiled attempt - it was a full fledged statement - seemed to work!

My replies also were not directed at you, but Mr.M who follows people around from thread to thread and claims that nothing anyone does will ever work (regardless of how much engineering and or data acquisition anyone uses).

Yes, Indy cars do not use dive planes. But there are other race teams and series that do, including Belcar and JGTC (the two highest levels of production based racing worldwide).

As for OUR system, we do not have a wind tunnel. But we do use computer modeling and a battery of data acquisition on test days to see the results.

To be sure, the dive plates work best with cars that develope quite a bit of downforce from proper underside design including a flat belly pan and proper diffuser and super low side skirts. After all, the downforce produced directly (that is, on plate's area) by pressure differential on the actual dive plates is not very large. Dive plates help to produce downstream downforce thanks to the properly placed vortical flow directed down the sides of the car in such a way to discourage ingress air from moving to the lower pressure region under the car.
To respond directly, I agree with this. So that you know on Jon Holder's car we have utilized the lowest side skirts available, designed and built a front bumper that WAS wind tunnel tested on an e36 (so it is a little different, but that is the best we could access with the budget), used airflow into the wheel wells rather then a flat front splitter and undertray. We have also taken the rear diffuser and vortex generators from a JGTC team (after looking at some of their aero testing and data) and are installing them to the best of the ability within the rules that we have.

So is it perfect - NOPE. Is it as good as the rules will let us be - YEP. Is it all tested with data acquisition to see the REAL and not THEORETICAL benefit - YEP.

Thanks
Brad

Gary's knowledge FTW!!!

It wasn't a thinly veiled attempt - it was a full fledged statement - seemed to work!

My replies also were not directed at you, but Mr.M who follows people around from thread to thread and claims that nothing anyone does will ever work (regardless of how much engineering and or data acquisition anyone uses).

Yes, Indy cars do not use dive planes. But there are other race teams and series that do, including Belcar and JGTC (the two highest levels of production based racing worldwide).

As for OUR system, we do not have a wind tunnel. But we do use computer modeling and a battery of data acquisition on test days to see the results.


To respond directly, I agree with this. So that you know on Jon Holder's car we have utilized the lowest side skirts available, designed and built a front bumper that WAS wind tunnel tested on an e36 (so it is a little different, but that is the best we could access with the budget), used airflow into the wheel wells rather then a flat front splitter and undertray. We have also taken the rear diffuser and vortex generators from a JGTC team (after looking at some of their aero testing and data) and are installing them to the best of the ability within the rules that we have.

So is it perfect - NOPE. Is it as good as the rules will let us be - YEP. Is it all tested with data acquisition to see the REAL and not THEORETICAL benefit - YEP.

Thanks
Brad

Wow, I got an almost instant reply - much better response than I got four years ago after leaving 10 to 15 unreturned messages on your voicemail. But, that's probably because I'm not up the Evosport's lofty standards of what an engineer should be.

Unfortunately, you should be less arrogant with your responses especially in topics like aerodynamics where you obviously aren't qualified to make the types of comments you have here. And I take it that your Indy engineer was a race engineer and not an aerodynamicist. The difference between the two is actually large, sort of like the difference between an engine builder and the engineer responsible for designing the camshafts, porting specs, ect. That is, one is engaged in the activity of taking what has been given to him and making the best of it, whereas the other is responsible for supplying the specifications on the actual pieces. It's quite a bit different.

To take data from a JGTC car and applying it to car with considerably different aerodynamics such as a BMW club racing car usually will give erroneous results. Why? Because, the flow field from the front of the car on back between the two cars is quite different. Actually, the flow field everywhere is quite different and by using something that works on one type of car onto another will often give the opposite results. JGTC cars have substantial flow diversion to behind the front wheels which affects the flow field on the sides of the car. In addition, if you do not use the ride height of the JGTC car, then the diffuser flow will not even be close between the two cars. This is not theoretical, but actual wind tunnel test and pressure tap information with other type of flow visualization that tells the story. You should be less cocky for it makes you look foolish to those who know a bit more about the subject than you.

What good is data acquisition? It's great if you have a driver with Bill Auberlin's or Craig Stanton's ability to drive consistently with lap times differing no more than a tenth or so for many laps. In addition, the segment times also need to be very close and with drivers like Stanton, I know his segment times can easily be overlayed with little discernable difference. For club racers, the traces are almost always quite different from one lap to the next. Also, few club racers have the seat of the pants capability of deconstructing a given corner into the five main segments (for most corners) and then telling the race engineer what the car is doing accurately. So, data acquisition can be useful but isn't the total answer about how a change in aerodyanamics affects a given lap time. Sure, you can make huge changes to the car and see the results with a DA system (these are first order effects) but for smaller changes like a change in wing angle of attack of a couple of degrees will be very difficult to concretely state whether the change worked as intended.

The funniest thing you said was arrogance - have you read one of your posts! LOL - "POT" "KETTLE" "BLACK"

We were having a good discussion (I even attempted to reply directly to you and give you more info, realizing that what we have is a compromise due to rules and budget constraints) and you want to make it all personal and take low blows - that is fine. It shows a character and personality type. It is clear that you have a grudge and something to prove - so I will let you get it out. No reason to go back and forth forever. So........

"You are right, there are no club drivers that are that good and every club car sucks."

For us, we will just go back to racing with our slow poorly engineered cars with mediocre drivers! :help

Thanks
Brad

PS - anonymity sure brings out all types! :devillook

LOL....some interesting responses on a thread that could have been answered with "rivets", "super glue", "velcro" or "elmers". Which may or may not have been more enlightening.

LOL....some interesting responses on a thread that could have been answered with "rivets", "super glue", "velcro" or "elmers". Which may or may not have been more enlightening.


Yup...700+ views and 30+ replies and only one person has actually answered my original question. LOL. :stickoutt

Wow, I got an almost instant reply - much better response than I got four years ago after leaving 10 to 15 unreturned messages on your voicemail. But, that's probably because I'm not up the Evosport's lofty standards of what an engineer should be.

Unfortunately, you should be less arrogant with your responses especially in topics like aerodynamics where you obviously aren't qualified to make the types of comments you have here. And I take it that your Indy engineer was a race engineer and not an aerodynamicist. The difference between the two is actually large, sort of like the difference between an engine builder and the engineer responsible for designing the camshafts, porting specs, ect. That is, one is engaged in the activity of taking what has been given to him and making the best of it, whereas the other is responsible for supplying the specifications on the actual pieces. It's quite a bit different.

To take data from a JGTC car and applying it to car with considerably different aerodynamics such as a BMW club racing car usually will give erroneous results. Why? Because, the flow field from the front of the car on back between the two cars is quite different. Actually, the flow field everywhere is quite different and by using something that works on one type of car onto another will often give the opposite results. JGTC cars have substantial flow diversion to behind the front wheels which affects the flow field on the sides of the car. In addition, if you do not use the ride height of the JGTC car, then the diffuser flow will not even be close between the two cars. This is not theoretical, but actual wind tunnel test and pressure tap information with other type of flow visualization that tells the story. You should be less cocky for it makes you look foolish to those who know a bit more about the subject than you.

What good is data acquisition? It's great if you have a driver with Bill Auberlin's or Craig Stanton's ability to drive consistently with lap times differing no more than a tenth or so for many laps. In addition, the segment times also need to be very close and with drivers like Stanton, I know his segment times can easily be overlayed with little discernable difference. For club racers, the traces are almost always quite different from one lap to the next. Also, few club racers have the seat of the pants capability of deconstructing a given corner into the five main segments (for most corners) and then telling the race engineer what the car is doing accurately. So, data acquisition can be useful but isn't the total answer about how a change in aerodyanamics affects a given lap time. Sure, you can make huge changes to the car and see the results with a DA system (these are first order effects) but for smaller changes like a change in wing angle of attack of a couple of degrees will be very difficult to concretely state whether the change worked as intended.

How can you comment on our aerodynamics with no data. We have seen success with this. Where is your data on these JGTC cars? You cannot compare their aero packaes to ours without it can you? Matter of fact there is a BMW JGTC car. So I don't see the probelm. You are talking out of your arse about aero with no real data. Of course we don't know everything about aerodynamics as you state. It is a club race car and we do this for fun. If you have not noticed most don't have access to a wind tunnel to test these theories and we do the best we can do with what we have. We are constricted by budget and are also trying to have fun. So we don't need

Real data meaning shock pots, which actually can show the difference a splitter, and dive planes can make simply by the graph of how the dampers react from corner to corner because of increased/decreased downforce. I am no engineer but when you have to add more spring to the front of a BMW because your splitter works well, means you have found something.

As for drivers in club racing. Not all drivers are club level. I know quite a few drivers on this board who have been or are professional race car drivers, that choose a more relaxing and friendly atmosphere as club racing. Data acquisition is not only for top of the line shoes like Billy (personal friend that is of the best in the world but is not nearly as cocky as you.) Data acquisition can actually show what a car is doing and sometimes puts the driver right out of the equation. I can't tell you how many times I have come in from a session and told the engineers one thing and the computer said something else. Changes made helped even if I was uncomfortable with it.

Brad here at evosport is a pro level driver that chooses not to race in a professional series for good reasons. We have Mr. Watts, James Clay, Seth Thomas, Scott Lang and countless others here than run BMW club races. Matter of fact I know quite a few amateurs that are pro level drivers but simply don't have the money or the desire. I usually don't toot my own horn on here, but I personally have tested for Farnbacher Loles, Pratt and Miller, evosport and Marshall Pruett. Some of these teams with million dollar budgets, real world engineers and aerodynamicists(the ones that don't come on Bimmerforums trying to blow our minds with supposed knowledge) trust me with there cars to give them feedback. I don't need to argue about what a splitter or a dive plane does on paper or in a wind tunnel. I can actually feel it and the engineers can see it on the screen. Do you honestly think these teams go to a wind tunnel every time the make change? They simply check trap speeds, shock data and weigh the pros and cons of more drag to downforce.

Maybe you should contact these teams so you can learn more. However they cannot teach you how to be humble oh mighty aerodynamicist. They can only show you with real world data instead of coming up with unproven theories as to why what we are doing is not working.

Why don't you put up or shut up. How about you throw down for a wind tunnel for us because swift charges too much.

Dale

So with all your (Mr. M and Johnny) vast knowledge of the upper echelons of motorsports and the most efficient perfect designs, what do our resident Aero engineers have constructive to add to the conversation? I've privately spoken to both of you, and think we could get some great designs down with your knowledge and resources available.

Any actual data/pictures/results showing your designs on cars and winning races? (Other than the wing we worked on Mr. M ;), that has not been at the track yet let alone win a race lol)

Yup...700+ views and 30+ replies and only one person has actually answered my original question. LOL. :stickoutt

Hey, I suggested Liquid Nails.:) or the nut plates and button head screws. I'm not an engineer and know nothing about aero. I just drive the thing. I know they look cool and my times went down. Maybe my laptimer is just out of wack. After all I'm just a lowly club club racer so I surely can't be maximizing the car or running consistent laptimes...

The funniest thing you said was arrogance - have you read one of your posts! LOL - "POT" "KETTLE" "BLACK"

We were having a good discussion (I even attempted to reply directly to you and give you more info, realizing that what we have is a compromise due to rules and budget constraints) and you want to make it all personal and take low blows - that is fine. It shows a character and personality type. It is clear that you have a grudge and something to prove - so I will let you get it out. No reason to go back and forth forever. So........

"You are right, there are no club drivers that are that good and every club car sucks."

For us, we will just go back to racing with our slow poorly engineered cars with mediocre drivers! :help

Thanks
Brad

PS - anonymity sure brings out all types! :devillook

First of all, I'm not anonymous at all. You know who I am and I would never ever try to be anonymous. I even go to the same NASA races you do to race or help my friends with their cars. I'll even be at Willow on Sunday hanging with Bernardo Martinez. His name should be familiar to you.

I never said your racers were mediocre and your engineering was poor. I've also seen you at the track many times and don't really want to be all that friendly with you anyways. After all, you sort of are obnoxious but that's another story.

I have worked with a large number of w-2-w club and pro racers in many series and I was commenting on the relative difference between pro drivers who must make a living at driving at a very high level verses club drivers who drive mostly for the fun of it. A few club racers can do an excellent job of telling the crew guys what needs to be changed to improve the car. In addition, most club racers don't have a lot of experience driving unlike the pro drivers.

I don't have any problem with my character issues, and I'm sorry that you do. But, what the heck, I was voicing my opinion about a subject that I have plenty of experience both theoretically and experimentally in addition to plenty of track testing with my own cars and for other teams.

First of all, I'm not anonymous at all.

Who are you?

You think too much of yourself, nobody here knows who you are (nor do we know Bernardo Martinez). I am actually kinda glad! LOL

Your posts are funny though!

BTW, "sort of obnoxious" I take offense to that - I am VERY obnoxious thank you very much!

Thanks
brad

How can you comment on our aerodynamics with no data. We have seen success with this. Where is your data on these JGTC cars? You cannot compare their aero packaes to ours without it can you? Matter of fact there is a BMW JGTC car. So I don't see the probelm. You are talking out of your arse about aero with no real data. Of course we don't know everything about aerodynamics as you state. It is a club race car and we do this for fun. If you have not noticed most don't have access to a wind tunnel to test these theories and we do the best we can do with what we have. We are constricted by budget and are also trying to have fun. So we don't need

Real data meaning shock pots, which actually can show the difference a splitter, and dive planes can make simply by the graph of how the dampers react from corner to corner because of increased/decreased downforce. I am no engineer but when you have to add more spring to the front of a BMW because your splitter works well, means you have found something.

As for drivers in club racing. Not all drivers are club level. I know quite a few drivers on this board who have been or are professional race car drivers, that choose a more relaxing and friendly atmosphere as club racing. Data acquisition is not only for top of the line shoes like Billy (personal friend that is of the best in the world but is not nearly as cocky as you.) Data acquisition can actually show what a car is doing and sometimes puts the driver right out of the equation. I can't tell you how many times I have come in from a session and told the engineers one thing and the computer said something else. Changes made helped even if I was uncomfortable with it.

Brad here at evosport is a pro level driver that chooses not to race in a professional series for good reasons. We have Mr. Watts, James Clay, Seth Thomas, Scott Lang and countless others here than run BMW club races. Matter of fact I know quite a few amateurs that are pro level drivers but simply don't have the money or the desire. I usually don't toot my own horn on here, but I personally have tested for Farnbacher Loles, Pratt and Miller, evosport and Marshall Pruett. Some of these teams with million dollar budgets, real world engineers and aerodynamicists(the ones that don't come on Bimmerforums trying to blow our minds with supposed knowledge) trust me with there cars to give them feedback. I don't need to argue about what a splitter or a dive plane does on paper or in a wind tunnel. I can actually feel it and the engineers can see it on the screen. Do you honestly think these teams go to a wind tunnel every time the make change? They simply check trap speeds, shock data and weigh the pros and cons of more drag to downforce.

Maybe you should contact these teams so you can learn more. However they cannot teach you how to be humble oh mighty aerodynamicist. They can only show you with real world data instead of coming up with unproven theories as to why what we are doing is not working.

Why don't you put up or shut up. How about you throw down for a wind tunnel for us because swift charges too much.

Dale

Wow, what a friggin' joke this response is. First off, blowhard, I didn't try to disseminate any real aerodynamic knowledge here. What I said, if you can read, is that taking aerodynamic information from a car as dissimilar as a JGTC car is to a BMW club race or even world challenge will give incorrect information. That's because they have completely different flow fields where making a conclusion based on one can and usually does give conflicting results. By using a diffuser with underbody flow and using a slightly different ride height will further change that flow field which will make the task of optimizing aero even more difficult. Now, if the statements like this make my arrogant than that's fine. Most aerodyamicists working on cars know these facts and not just me. So, I don't get your attacks on what I purported said, but maybe Ad Hominem attacks is how you justify your opinions.

I guess Brad needs help fighting his perceived battles. The ganging up is absolutely hilarious to me.

You think too much of yourself, nobody here knows who you are (nor do we know Bernardo Martinez). I am actually kinda glad! LOL

Your posts are funny though!

BTW, "sort of obnoxious" I take offense to that - I am VERY obnoxious thank you very much!

Thanks
brad

Bernardo is the guy in the red Honda you picked a fight with a couple of years ago in the pits at Buttonwillow when he passed Lagoni leading up to Magic Mountain. Bernardo almost snapped and would have taken your head off if you didn't scoot away in your golf cart. Interestingly, I was shooting the race for a magazine and was stationed at M.M. at the corner worker station and shot the alleged pass that obviously scared Lagoni. Lagoni must have radioed to you what his perception of what happened and you went directly towards Bernardo. I wish I was in the pits for that one.

You think too much of yourself, nobody here knows who you are (nor do we know Bernardo Martinez). I am actually kinda glad! LOL

Your posts are funny though!

BTW, "sort of obnoxious" I take offense to that - I am VERY obnoxious thank you very much!

Thanks
brad


Sorry, I don't have an inflated sense of my abilities as I haven't even said anything related to aero theory that one couldn't find with a decent google search. Actually, most of my work is theoretical and I really haven't said too much about theory anyways. Most of my work is confined to writing code for companies like Fluent (ANSYS) to use in their CFD codes on predicting separation criteria and in their two-equation turbulence models. Some of this work is used in some codes used for predicting flows around F1 cars.

Well putting the personal attacks aside, which teams have you done work for?

Can you show us some of your work? I can't remember when we spoke last, but I vaguely remember you were going to upload some pictures for me to check out. Any luck getting those up? I think you were going to post some pictures of some f1 memorabilia you purchased from the UK.

Also, are you back to working on your fellowship at UCLA? Hows it going?

And finally getting back OT with attaching the Dive planes, you have many options. Try to conceal as much as possible, but if all else fails, use some small brackets and fasteners to the bumper.

Wow, what a friggin' joke this response is. First off, blowhard, I didn't try to disseminate any real aerodynamic knowledge here. What I said, if you can read, is that taking aerodynamic information from a car as dissimilar as a JGTC car is to a BMW club race or even world challenge will give incorrect information. That's because they have completely different flow fields where making a conclusion based on one can and usually does give conflicting results. By using a diffuser with underbody flow and using a slightly different ride height will further change that flow field which will make the task of optimizing aero even more difficult. Now, if the statements like this make my arrogant than that's fine. Most aerodyamicists working on cars know these facts and not just me. So, I don't get your attacks on what I purported said, but maybe Ad Hominem attacks is how you justify your opinions.

I guess Brad needs help fighting his perceived battles. The ganging up is absolutely hilarious to me.

No data, no lip. Simple. What teams do you work for?

Brad does need any help defending himself.

A person as knownedgable as you should be contributing to the board instead of deconstructing. Your opinion is noted and does make sense. However we both know you should always have proof when you start telling people they don't know what they are doing. I have no doubt you are a smart and well educated guy, but when you start spewing of at the mouth nobody listens with an attitude like that.

Now back on topic, now that we completely destroyed this thread.


Dale

Bernardo is the guy in the red Honda you picked a fight with a couple of years ago in the pits at Buttonwillow when he passed Lagoni leading up to Magic Mountain. Bernardo almost snapped and would have taken your head off if you didn't scoot away in your golf cart. Interestingly, I was shooting the race for a magazine and was stationed at M.M. at the corner worker station and shot the alleged pass that obviously scared Lagoni. Lagoni must have radioed to you what his perception of what happened and you went directly towards Bernardo. I wish I was in the pits for that one.
Ah him.

Two things since you want to bring this up.

Bernanrdo passed Lagoni under FULL TRACK YELLOW. It was Lagoni's FIRST race. So a Honda going flying passed in your rookie race in under full course yellow. Yes that would piss anyone off. It is not safe and not respectful. I have it on video if you want to see all the yellow flags!

Second, I was out of line. It was totally disrespectful the way I approached him. I guess he did not tell you that I sent him a very long apology Monday after the weekend. Hummmm, amazing how having SOME of the story just sucks, huh!

I will not even speak to my ability to handle myself in an altercation. No need to lower my maturity level to that type of discussion. I will leave that to you.

Thanks
Brad

Ah him.

Two things since you want to bring this up.

Bernanrdo passed Lagoni under FULL TRACK YELLOW. It was Lagoni's FIRST race. So a Honda going flying passed in your rookie race in under full course yellow. Yes that would piss anyone off. It is not safe and not respectful. I have it on video if you want to see all the yellow flags!

Second, I was out of line. It was totally disrespectful the way I approached him. I guess he did not tell you that I sent him a very long apology Monday after the weekend. Hummmm, amazing how having SOME of the story just sucks, huh!

I will not even speak to my ability to handle myself in an altercation. No need to lower my maturity level to that type of discussion. I will leave that to you.

Thanks
Brad

Sorry, it wasn't full course yellow just a local yellow and it was past the incident. And Bernardo didn't get disqualified anyhow. He is very experienced and I've not seen him make that mistake before. But, regardless you acted very unprofessionally at that event.

I'm done with this thread and hopefully with Evosport. People who don't like each other should just agree to disagree and be done with it.

how can someone not like someone they do not even know? Mr. Anonymous? huh?

I don't want you to stop, this is entertaining!

No data, no lip. Simple. What teams do you work for?

Brad does need any help defending himself.

A person as knownedgable as you should be contributing to the board instead of deconstructing. Your opinion is noted and does make sense. However we both know you should always have proof when you start telling people they don't know what they are doing. I have no doubt you are a smart and well educated guy, but when you start spewing of at the mouth nobody listens with an attitude like that.

Now back on topic, now that we completely destroyed this thread.


Dale

Being as contentious as this thread is, I'd be a fool to mention who I work for as it wouldn't prove anything one way or another. I work in industry and with a racecar manufacturer and that's all I'll say. And, as I mentioned in a previous post I work on fluid dynamic models that are used to create algorithms for CFD code. My field is fluid separation criteria using cross flow wave number propagation analysis. In short, because the flow on most bodies is 3D and not 2D, the existing separation criteria is lacking robustness in being able to predict with great certainty where the flow will separate from the surface to where it was attached.

To correlate data from actual wind tunnel testing, I've had to look at a significant amount of data from different types of cars. This information is why I mentioned what I did about comparing different cars. I wasn't attempting be arrogant, rather, I was trying and obviously failing at describing this problem with comparative aerodynamics.

how can someone not like someone they do not even know? Mr. Anonymous? huh?

I don't want you to stop, this is entertaining!

You see, I'm the guy who talked with you at the BMW meet back in March of 2003 about aero on your WC cars. Now, you remember. I'm the 6'4" guy with the Imola red E46 M3. Maybe you haven't noticed me at so many NASA events but I remember you. I've raced NASA since 2002 off and on when time allows and you and the BMW guys race at many of the same races that we do.

So my question is...why are you racing a honduh!? ;)

So my question is...why are you racing a honduh!? ;)

It's a long story and I wouldn't really want to discuss it here. But it has to do with the fact that the Honda folks were my introduction to the sport. Besides, I freelance with some of the import magazines in tech stuff for the fun of it. Certainly, it's not for the pay. So, I've got a lot of time invested with the FF stuff and with various manufacturers and so forth.

It's a long story and I wouldn't really want to discuss it here. But it has to do with the fact that the Honda folks were my introduction to the sport. Besides, I freelance with some of the import magazines in tech stuff for the fun of it. Certainly, it's not for the pay. So, I've got a lot of time invested with the FF stuff and with various manufacturers and so forth.

interesting

:eatpop:

Cool. I was just bustin your balls.

My friend is a suspension engineer at Honda, and he is their club racing main driver. He's running their new TL and has been very successful. He just sent me video from the race at Road America, looked like fun...especially when he passed a couple porsches :) (in the rain haha)

I'm confused on this aspect of dive plates and the prepared rules: Can or can they not be wider than the car?

First of all, I'm not anonymous at all.

Who are you, and what is your resume? Perhaps I would like to employ you.

I'm confused on this aspect of dive plates and the prepared rules: Can or can they not be wider than the car?
Good question. They cannot be wider then the car. But the width of the car is determined by BMW and is often wider then you think.

E36 is 66" I think for the sedan and 67" for the coupe.

Thanks
brad

Who are you, and what is your resume? Perhaps I would like to employ you.

This must be some sort of joke. :confused After all, your crew chief (I think one of them Brad or Dale, is your crew chief and you can correct me if I'm wrong) was sure I was disrespecting you and every other Evosport supported driver. But, actually I wasn't but that's besides the point.

Cool. I was just bustin your balls.

My friend is a suspension engineer at Honda, and he is their club racing main driver. He's running their new TL and has been very successful. He just sent me video from the race at Road America, looked like fun...especially when he passed a couple porsches :) (in the rain haha)

Is his name Jeremy?

This must be some sort of joke. :confused After all, your crew chief (I think one of them Brad or Dale, is your crew chief and you can correct me if I'm wrong) was sure I was disrespecting you and every other Evosport supported driver. But, actually I wasn't but that's besides the point.

Brad's the owner of the company. Dale is a lead sales guy. I am a customer. My lead mechanic is Mark and my engineer is Gary. I guess Brad could be considered my crew chief, but that's beside the point. I was simply asking who you were, and if you would be interested in sharing your resume with me. You are obviously intelligent and knowledgeable about your field. My car is fast, and well developed (for a club race car) with about the last avenue for development being the aero. If you have interest, and you want to be constructive, then I pay for constructive, intelligent, relevant contribution.

I will assume you have read the rule set under which I race, and that you believe you have a better way of going about the aero development of my car, other than my feel, and some data acquisition, which I have paid for and installed.

I am not joking. I am as serious as a heart attack.

This thread makes me :rolleyes.

First of all, attach the dang dive planes with rivets and tabs fitted into slots in the body (assuming you've made your own).

As for aero, let's bring the discussion back into perspective. This is not F1, Champ Car, or DTM. There are no multi million budgets. There are no wind tunnels.

There are only ideas, data acquisition, and lap times. Caveman stuff, comparitively. "Put wing on, lap times lower, make wing change, lap time lower, make other wing change, lap time higher....grunt....go back to old wing setting". That kind of stuff.

Some of the arguments here might be more applicable on an ALMS or Champ Car participants board.

Obviously people are willing to listen to anyone who might be willing to share their experience and the fruit of their education or the tools they may have at their disposal. But when it devolves into stories about people wanting to kick other peoples asses, people pretty much stop listening.

You can spend all day arguing about this, but at the end of the day it's all about who wins, Evosport wins races.

Good question. They cannot be wider then the car. But the width of the car is determined by BMW and is often wider then you think.

E36 is 66" I think for the sedan and 67" for the coupe.

Thanks
brad
Thanks. Where are you getting the info that the width is determined by BMW though?

P/7/B:
"Maximum body width is defined as
widest point of the beam of the racecar at the front or rear structural
quarter panels or doors, including allowed flares. Mirrors or other similar
items are not considered part of the body for width determination."

According to MSN auto the width of my car is 69.20", I wonder if they're including mirrors or not, I'll look tomorrow...

Is his name Jeremy?

Nope.

Thanks. Where are you getting the info that the width is determined by BMW though?

P/7/B:
"Maximum body width is defined as
widest point of the beam of the racecar at the front or rear structural
quarter panels or doors, including allowed flares. Mirrors or other similar
items are not considered part of the body for width determination."

According to MSN auto the width of my car is 69.20", I wonder if they're including mirrors or not, I'll look tomorrow...

Holder would be better to answer that as he is on the rules committee, but I believe that BMW posted and stated width is an acceptable measurement for stock and prep classes.

Mod width will be different as the allowance of flares and body work may change this number dramatically.

Thanks
Brad

Nope.

Inness Eisele?

Hey Johnny! How's my wing coming along? ;)

Yes, our engineer who came from Indy Car racing (with real prolonged experience in aero, suspension and motors) has NO clue! LOL

And since you never say who you are, I am guessing an engineering student at SLO?

Engineering theory is great. Even better are the engineers that actually work and succeed in the world of motorsports! We are lucky to have one of those!

Wow, you need to stop equating the amount of money jholder has spent at your shop for the amount of engineering prowess you have. How about this. When it comes to Aero, on of the many things better than a guy who USED to work in Indy (probably not even in Aero), is a guy who currently works under contract for an F1 team in the CFD dept. That'd be . . . drumroll please . . . me!

My replies also were not directed at you, but Mr.M who follows people around from thread to thread and claims that nothing anyone does will ever work (regardless of how much engineering and or data acquisition anyone uses).

I also follow people around through PM and give them advice. Check the gurney thread. I answered his question and told him what he could expect from doing it. I'm the first one to say go for Aero, and I like to put Aero on everything, but I'm straight with people when it comes to applications where it might not be worth the effort. BMW CR is one of those applications. There are a number of valuable aero tips from both Johnny Mac and I in this thread alone . . . if you'll open your eyes and read them at least. There have been threads by Steve J and Watts and others where I've given input that was constructive. But not in threads about your products, because the way you reacted to a one line, unoffensive statement I made was ridiculous. Was that response a personal or marketing decision?

I claim it won't work because. . . guess what . . . none of it does work - at least not well! The only engineering that goes into your Aero and other aftermarket crap are cheesy CFD runs. I've seen some. Rear wings with twist that were simulated WITHOUT the car in front of them :rofl What a joke.

Let me give you a little clue, maybe you can pass it onto your Indy know it all: the reason that twist is there is because of the different flow angles present in the wake of the car. When site vendors go off and design twist, they don't even have the car to produce that angled wake. They "design" twist without even knowing the reason its there. Then they markup the twist as some kind of performance enhancement, when in reality they don't know why its there and it doesn't match the wake of the car its being installed on. considering a wing can go from max efficiency or max lift to max drag in only a few degrees, this is a serious design problem.

Your cute little carbon diffuser on jholder's car? Probably not very functional. What, do you think just making a flat plate with some fins works? Maybe it will sell, but it won't work well. You realize all it's doing is reducing drag, right? You realize you need boundary layers to merge at the end of the under tray throat, right? That flat diffuser isn't recovering pressure, because you're already lost total pressure to the rough underfloor. But, I'm sure you know that, Mr. "real" engineer. Speaking of pressure recovery, did you take any Cp readings at the rear of the car? How about underneath? Wind tunnel testing? Did you do ANY of the "real world" engineering you claim I know nothing about? Or did you run a single CFD run and call it a day?

Let me clue the clueless in on another secret: your tray probably needs to be well under inches off the ground before you can even think about a proper diffuser. Is it? Probably not.

As for OUR system, we do not have a wind tunnel. But we do use computer modeling and a battery of data acquisition on test days to see the results.

Computer modeling? What type? Full RANS CFD? I doubt it, considering the cost. My guess is you use an off the shelf panel code, which is useless for anything other than basic configuration and extreme low down force Aero. Forget including the body of the car too (the most important part), unless you have at least 16GB RAM and massive CPU power.

If it's CFD, I'd love to see a run or hear about your methods. The team I work for is especially keen on numerical methods and RANS simulation, and it happens to be my specialty, so I'd be more than happy to tear yours apart, especially with your "my experience trumps your talent" attitude. I'm young and still in grad school, I must be a total noob right? HA! I outperform "experienced" guys like you daily. Don't let the fact that it took you or your engineer ten years to learn from experience serve as a microcosm for the rest of the world. What took you or him 10 years could take others 2 . . . Have you spent at least at least $50k on aero simulation? At least 20k on Aero software alone? If not, then you haven't simulated shit.

How can you comment on our aerodynamics with no data. We have seen success with this. Where is your data on these JGTC cars? You cannot compare their aero packaes to ours without it can you? Matter of fact there is a BMW JGTC car. So I don't see the probelm. You are talking out of your arse about aero with no real data.

Says the guy form the company that designs aero around no real testing data :rofl Seriously, you guys (vendors in general) are like grassroots engineering at an F1 price. Some of the wings I've seen for BMW CR are as expensive as the ones for Atlantic, Star, etc., yet I can look at them and know they're inferior.

It is a club race car and we do this for fun.

Yet your customers spend hundreds of thousands building cars that wipe out the field so they can win without having to break 7ths . . .

Your hillbilly engineering, I threw it on and ran a faster lap methods are fine for club racing, but DO NOT pass them off as the proper design that Johnny Mac and I are paid to do. Sure, maybe your dive plates and wings work. I don't doubt that. But I could probably double the downforce of the wing while cutting drag by at least 25% in a single day if you gave me CAD of an E36. PM Steve J. I spent about an hour playing with a preliminary wing design he sent me and I was able to increase downforce on his configuration by about 40% or something like that while almost cutting drag in half. Don't question or insult my Aero knowledge because I could do in one day what takes you guys months, in terms of Aero. Go tell racecarengineering I don't know Aero. I'm actually working on a freelance article for them, inspired by the Ferrari brake duct thread no less!

You are correct in that you don't have tons of money, facilities, etc. to do proper design. But copying other cars is not the way! And assuming you know everything because you have a guy from INDY doesn't help. There are a lot of ppl who have PM'd me about Aero and I've helped them. The most impressive was Steve J. If you want to see someone who is doing real engineering for Aero the cheap way, follow him. Between bits of research, asking for help here and there, and designing something that fits HIS car (not a random touring car) . . . he's doing what I think is as good as you can without an Aero degree. Put up or shut up? Find someone who isn't a jerk to ask me any Aero question you want, particularly those involving simulation, and as long as they don't require me leaking proprietary info/techniques, I will answer.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if you take something from a JGTC car or any other car and throw it onto yours. That's not "engineers working and succeeding," that's technicians guessing and getting lucky :rofl I think you guys fail to understand that Aero works as an integrated package. The tiniest bits can change everything. See the pic below. While the drag between these two wings is almost the same, the drag on the tires behind them was reduced by over 30% . . . Let's see if you can spot the little bit that does that, eh? ;) And yes, I did the work on that wing. The little things that work on JGTC cars might not do anywhere near as much on your cars because of minor details you are sure to be overlooking . . . I should know; I tried the same little detail on a marginally different wing from another car and it didn't work :rofl

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/aerogt3/frontwing_comparison.jpg

To take data from a JGTC car and applying it to car with considerably different aerodynamics such as a BMW club racing car usually will give erroneous results. Why? Because, the flow field from the front of the car on back between the two cars is quite different. Actually, the flow field everywhere is quite different and by using something that works on one type of car onto another will often give the opposite results. JGTC cars have substantial flow diversion to behind the front wheels which affects the flow field on the sides of the car. In addition, if you do not use the ride height of the JGTC car, then the diffuser flow will not even be close between the two cars. Let me add in that diffuser performance is incredibly sensitive to ride height!!! This is not theoretical, but actual wind tunnel test and pressure tap information with other type of flow visualization that tells the story. You should be less cocky for it makes you look foolish to those who know a bit more about the subject than you.


So, data acquisition can be useful but isn't the total answer about how a change in aerodynamics affects a given lap time. Sure, you can make huge changes to the car and see the results with a DA system (these are first order effects) but for smaller changes like a change in wing angle of attack of a couple of degrees will be very difficult to concretely state whether the change worked as intended.

Thank you for posting.

The funniest thing you said was arrogance - have you read one of your posts! LOL - "POT" "KETTLE" "BLACK"

I think he deserves to be arrogant, if what he's posting here classifies as "arrogant." Read his posts. He knows what he's talking about. You, do not.

ouch

:eatpop:

3....2....1...before thread closure.

3....2....1...before thread closure.

That's the norm when vendors come into threads swinging and then strike out :(

it's no longer JGTC.............



as of 2005, the series is called Super GT ;)

PM Steve J. I spent about an hour playing with a preliminary wing design he sent me and I was able to increase downforce on his configuration by about 40% or something like that while almost cutting drag in half. Don't question or insult my Aero knowledge because I could do in one day what takes you guys months, in terms of Aero. Go tell racecarengineering I don't know Aero. I'm actually working on a freelance article for them, inspired by the Ferrari brake duct thread no less!

The most impressive was Steve J. If you want to see someone who is doing real engineering for Aero the cheap way, follow him. Between bits of research, asking for help here and there, and designing something that fits HIS car (not a random touring car) . . . he's doing what I think is as good as you can without an Aero degree.

Thanks :) I knew I should have gone for that double degree/major Meche'Aero lol yea right! Definitely would have had no time for FSAE if I tried for more than an ME. I do have Wind Tunnel experience though, but for thermal fluids applications, not anything close to this, and while some theories apply, it really is a whole different ball game, thats why I contacted you and I also got some great feedback from Simon Mcbeath, extremely nice guy btw.

I just got RCE for Sept, some VERY interesting articles regarding aero, in particular a article that starts to go into Katz's analysis that the rear wing on some applications can actually produce the same df with less drag while at a height thats not "as high as rules allow," although Mcbeaths conclusion at the end of the article did say, "go as high as the rules allow" :)

Btw, Mr M. If I feel up to it I might convert some 3d models from Rfactor and convert them into a cad model we can use to further analyze my wing, although most likely it'll be tested on track first. I'd mostly want to get the car in cad so we can work on the underbody flow, as I plan to flat bottom the car and work on a very simple diffuser. I've been running some Ferrari Challenge cars at the track recently, and am trying to avoid doing the gt body conversions and instead swap in some better suspension. The aero on those cars is pretty awesome though. I have a CFD photo of the 430, amazing.

Wow, you need to stop equating the amount of money jholder has spent at your shop for the amount of engineering prowess you have. How about this. When it comes to Aero, on of the many things better than a guy who USED to work in Indy (probably not even in Aero), is a guy who currently works under contract for an F1 team in the CFD dept. That'd be . . . drumroll please . . . me!



I also follow people around through PM and give them advice. Check the gurney thread. I answered his question and told him what he could expect from doing it. I'm the first one to say go for Aero, and I like to put Aero on everything, but I'm straight with people when it comes to applications where it might not be worth the effort. BMW CR is one of those applications. There are a number of valuable aero tips from both Johnny Mac and I in this thread alone . . . if you'll open your eyes and read them at least. There have been threads by Steve J and Watts and others where I've given input that was constructive. But not in threads about your products, because the way you reacted to a one line, unoffensive statement I made was ridiculous. Was that response a personal or marketing decision?

I claim it won't work because. . . guess what . . . none of it does work - at least not well! The only engineering that goes into your Aero and other aftermarket crap are cheesy CFD runs. I've seen some. Rear wings with twist that were simulated WITHOUT the car in front of them :rofl What a joke.

Let me give you a little clue, maybe you can pass it onto your Indy know it all: the reason that twist is there is because of the different flow angles present in the wake of the car. When site vendors go off and design twist, they don't even have the car to produce that angled wake. They "design" twist without even knowing the reason its there. Then they markup the twist as some kind of performance enhancement, when in reality they don't know why its there and it doesn't match the wake of the car its being installed on. considering a wing can go from max efficiency or max lift to max drag in only a few degrees, this is a serious design problem.

Your cute little carbon diffuser on jholder's car? Probably not very functional. What, do you think just making a flat plate with some fins works? Maybe it will sell, but it won't work well. You realize all it's doing is reducing drag, right? You realize you need boundary layers to merge at the end of the under tray throat, right? That flat diffuser isn't recovering pressure, because you're already lost total pressure to the rough underfloor. But, I'm sure you know that, Mr. "real" engineer. Speaking of pressure recovery, did you take any Cp readings at the rear of the car? How about underneath? Wind tunnel testing? Did you do ANY of the "real world" engineering you claim I know nothing about? Or did you run a single CFD run and call it a day?

Let me clue the clueless in on another secret: your tray probably needs to be well under inches off the ground before you can even think about a proper diffuser. Is it? Probably not.



Computer modeling? What type? Full RANS CFD? I doubt it, considering the cost. My guess is you use an off the shelf panel code, which is useless for anything other than basic configuration and extreme low down force Aero. Forget including the body of the car too (the most important part), unless you have at least 16GB RAM and massive CPU power.

If it's CFD, I'd love to see a run or hear about your methods. The team I work for is especially keen on numerical methods and RANS simulation, and it happens to be my specialty, so I'd be more than happy to tear yours apart, especially with your "my experience trumps your talent" attitude. I'm young and still in grad school, I must be a total noob right? HA! I outperform "experienced" guys like you daily. Don't let the fact that it took you or your engineer ten years to learn from experience serve as a microcosm for the rest of the world. What took you or him 10 years could take others 2 . . . Have you spent at least at least $50k on aero simulation? At least 20k on Aero software alone? If not, then you haven't simulated shit.



Says the guy form the company that designs aero around no real testing data :rofl Seriously, you guys (vendors in general) are like grassroots engineering at an F1 price. Some of the wings I've seen for BMW CR are as expensive as the ones for Atlantic, Star, etc., yet I can look at them and know they're inferior.



Yet your customers spend hundreds of thousands building cars that wipe out the field so they can win without having to break 7ths . . .

Your hillbilly engineering, I threw it on and ran a faster lap methods are fine for club racing, but DO NOT pass them off as the proper design that Johnny Mac and I are paid to do. Sure, maybe your dive plates and wings work. I don't doubt that. But I could probably double the downforce of the wing while cutting drag by at least 25% in a single day if you gave me CAD of an E36. PM Steve J. I spent about an hour playing with a preliminary wing design he sent me and I was able to increase downforce on his configuration by about 40% or something like that while almost cutting drag in half. Don't question or insult my Aero knowledge because I could do in one day what takes you guys months, in terms of Aero. Go tell racecarengineering I don't know Aero. I'm actually working on a freelance article for them, inspired by the Ferrari brake duct thread no less!

You are correct in that you don't have tons of money, facilities, etc. to do proper design. But copying other cars is not the way! And assuming you know everything because you have a guy from INDY doesn't help. There are a lot of ppl who have PM'd me about Aero and I've helped them. The most impressive was Steve J. If you want to see someone who is doing real engineering for Aero the cheap way, follow him. Between bits of research, asking for help here and there, and designing something that fits HIS car (not a random touring car) . . . he's doing what I think is as good as you can without an Aero degree. Put up or shut up? Find someone who isn't a jerk to ask me any Aero question you want, particularly those involving simulation, and as long as they don't require me leaking proprietary info/techniques, I will answer.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if you take something from a JGTC car or any other car and throw it onto yours. That's not "engineers working and succeeding," that's technicians guessing and getting lucky :rofl I think you guys fail to understand that Aero works as an integrated package. The tiniest bits can change everything. See the pic below. While the drag between these two wings is almost the same, the drag on the tires behind them was reduced by over 30% . . . Let's see if you can spot the little bit that does that, eh? ;) And yes, I did the work on that wing. The little things that work on JGTC cars might not do anywhere near as much on your cars because of minor details you are sure to be overlooking . . . I should know; I tried the same little detail on a marginally different wing from another car and it didn't work :rofl

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/aerogt3/frontwing_comparison.jpg

Oh wait so 2 invisible aerodynamicists exist? Swinging at what? An arm chair racer? We have never said we are the know all of aero. We do what works within our budget.

All you have to do is build a BMW with all this knowledge of yours and show up to the track with it. All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing. Steve is a friend of mine, but afterall it is a race and he will have to suffer the same fate as you. Just show up to the track sometime with your best piece, with all your fabulous aero and still get beat. Come and show my engineer and I how good you are. We will give credit when it is due. How about it? My car will be finished in about 2 months?

Sorry Steve;)

Dale

Oh wait so 2 invisible aerodynamicists exist? Swinging at what? An arm chair racer? We have never said we are the know all of aero. We do what works within our budget.

All you have to do is build a BMW with all this knowledge of yours and show up to the track with it. All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing. Steve is a friend of mine, but afterall it is a race and he will have to suffer the same fate as you. Just show up to the track sometime with your best piece, with all your fabulous aero and still get beat. Come and show my engineer and I how good you are. We will give credit when it is due. How about it? My car will be finished in about 2 months?

Sorry Steve;)

Dale

I'm not a bench racer, I held the track record at Sears Point (Infineon) for two years in my 122 wph 2150 lb Honda Challenge H4 car at 1:56.5 in only it's second race from a fresh build. So I'm invisible. Oh, and it was my second trip to that track, so I've got no talent either.

Oh wait so 2 invisible aerodynamicists exist? Swinging at what? An arm chair racer? We have never said we are the know all of aero. We do what works within our budget.

All you have to do is build a BMW with all this knowledge of yours and show up to the track with it. All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing. Steve is a friend of mine, but afterall it is a race and he will have to suffer the same fate as you. Just show up to the track sometime with your best piece, with all your fabulous aero and still get beat. Come and show my engineer and I how good you are. We will give credit when it is due. How about it? My car will be finished in about 2 months?

Sorry Steve;)

Dale
Maybe somebody is...
http://mathcaddy.com/images/foot%20in%20mouth.jpg

This is my favorite thread

Oh wait so 2 invisible aerodynamicists exist? Swinging at what? An arm chair racer? We have never said we are the know all of aero. We do what works within our budget.

All you have to do is build a BMW with all this knowledge of yours and show up to the track with it. All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing. Steve is a friend of mine, but afterall it is a race and he will have to suffer the same fate as you. Just show up to the track sometime with your best piece, with all your fabulous aero and still get beat. Come and show my engineer and I how good you are. We will give credit when it is due. How about it? My car will be finished in about 2 months?

Sorry Steve;)

Dale



Nice try. You called me out about Aero and I responded and completely rebutted your argument. There's nothing you have to refute anything I said, so you're going to ask me to race you when I don't own or drive a racecar. That's like Steve, after losing a race, coming up to you and saying "but I could beat you at hopscotch." It's irrelevant. :confused

Honestly. Read my post. Then read yours. Are they even part of the same thread?

Invisible? I've met dozens of people from these boards in person. How the hell can you make that kind of statement? :nono

Oh wait so 2 invisible aerodynamicists exist? Swinging at what? An arm chair racer?

No, I work on F1 cars. Stuff you couldn't handle. Don't worry about it.

We have never said we are the know all of aero. We do what works within our budget.

Don't give me that bullshit. You acted like you knew it all and you clearly insulted both me and mine and Johnny's abilities. YOU made the first inflammatory/insulting post, full of assumptions no less. Don't try and back peddle after my last post clearly illustrated otherwise.

All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing.

You mean all the "modeling" Evosport itself claimed to do? :rofl First nonsense, then total hypocrisy?

Just show up to the track sometime with your best piece, with all your fabulous aero and still get beat. Come and show my engineer and I how good you are. We will give credit when it is due. How about it? My car will be finished in about 2 months?

Talk all you want about the rest of the car. I never said anything about your cars' suspension, tires, chassis, cage, etc. Nor do I care. You can win all the races you want, but your Aero sucks and your Aero methods suck. Regardless of budget. Steve has a smaller budget and is doing better aero design. I don't care if the rest of his car sucks. Start a thread to brag about your car in another thread. We're talking about aero here. Winning just means the other parts of your car are better. Oh, and damn right I'd school you guys about aero. I've already schooled you on it here. You're also being schooled in debate :rofl

Here's a recap of your postings:

Evosport: "Mr.M, you suck at aero. You're a student with no real world skills."
Mr.M: *Proves aero knowledge*
Evosport: "uhhh I totally lost that one. Want to race me in two months, even though you don't race and don't have a racecar? Sorry, I'm a vendor so I have to walk a away with the upper hand somehow, even if it means going off topic."

:rofl

All the modeling, CFD, Data, and the rest of your bench racing programs, just like Steve is doing.


Then I guess the most powerful computer in all of europe is doing some big time bench racing. Maybe BMW's F1 program is confused about what is the best way to win races :confused

Come on guys. I think I have told one of you, can't rememebr if it was Mr. M or Johnny Mac - if you come up with a proposal for me for the aero for my E46 M3 Club race car, and you eplain to me why it is superior - I will buy it. Either you are interested in being constructive, or you are not. Please let me know.

Back tot he original posters question - have you tried staples? (Channeling the movie "Scrooged" there).

Then I guess the most powerful computer in all of europe is doing some big time bench racing. Maybe BMW's F1 program is confused about what is the best way to win races :confused

Actually, Julich Research Center has the fastest supercomputer in all of Europe at 46 teraflops peak. BMW Sauber's "Albert2" "only" performs at 12.288 teraflops peak. I don't know jackshmit about aero though...:stickoutt

Come on guys. I think I have told one of you, can't rememebr if it was Mr. M or Johnny Mac - if you come up with a proposal for me for the aero for my E46 M3 Club race car, and you eplain to me why it is superior - I will buy it. Either you are interested in being constructive, or you are not. Please let me know.

Back tot he original posters question - have you tried staples? (Channeling the movie "Scrooged" there).

I will be at Willow Springs this Sunday only due to my dog having hip surgery tonight. Will you be there?

Haha, don't be sorry Dale, like Brad said, it is pretty entertaining watching these posts go back and forth :)

Once my car is done, i'll put it up against you anytime, but maybe with a hired hot shoe behind the wheel until I get to be as good of a driver as you :)

Also, in regards to hopskotching...it would be a close one, Dale and I both have pretty low center of gravities.

As for the supercomputer reference, my almamada (sp), RPI, thanks to NY State and IBM now has the fastest University based super computer in the world, and is 7th most powerful in the world. http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=2202

Mr.M check your PM's.

You can spend all day arguing about this, but at the end of the day it's all about who wins, Evosport wins races.Respectfully, in club racing, the person who wins is the person who is best funded while not being a total hack at the wheel. Evosport is about as well funded as you can get, and when you throw in a good driver, there's practically no point in showing up :) I like spec classes where it's about the driver, though that's not to say that I dont love reading the buildup threads about the latest and greatest racecars - lots to drool over.

Back tot he original posters question - have you tried staples? (Channeling the movie "Scrooged" there).


...velcro. :buttrock

...velcro. :buttrock


Vince....wanna borrow my nail gun? :D

Damon in STL

I love this thread but still find myself thinking about how I can make dive planes tie into fender flares and look cool.

I am pathetic.

...velcro. :buttrock

chewing gum :)

chewing gum :)



Now I'm thinking Elmers glue and a couple binder clips.

Just got through reading all this for the first time and I'm wondering what I learned....

In the end, academics have their place in the rarified air of true professional motorsports, but where we live, we like to hear the engines roar, the tires squeal and imagine that we are not half bad.

Byron