I'm curious if the E30 M3 has any engine issues, I know that the E36 has a pretty "fragile" valve train, so what do you guys think?

Krivit

Black 95 M3

Oh, yes, they have their issues. Not just age, either, but that's the bulk of the engine issues.

First--timing chain tensioner rattle. It is recommended that you replace the chain tensioner piston and bore assembly, all sealing washers, and the internal spring. Parts are about $120 from a dealer, less from other guys. At least one person had the chain jump a tooth, and it messed up his entire valvetrain and pistons. He now has a complete Evo-3 2.5L rebuild and a load more power and torque.

If you are worried about jumping teeth, then you have to replace the chain, tensioner rails, upper chain guide, plastic guide rail, and any worn sprockets. This requires removal of the front crankshaft hub/balancer assembly and about $800-1000 in parts/labor. I know it happens on the E28 M5 (a friend's), but there is some debate regarding the necessity of this on the E30 M3.

Intake gaskets between the throttles (yes, there are 4 throttles) are rubber blocks with metal inside. There is a plenum support that weakens with age, and that can bend the intake gaskets, leading to intake leaks. This can spell the death of the engine, as pinging with 10.2:1 compression leads to bad things. Replace the original mount with one from Korman. Use the E28 M5 paper gaskets in between the head and new M3 intake gaskets.

Again, age is becoming a factor. If you want one, be prepared to spend a grand total of $13k-$15k to get a nice one that needs nothing or a cheap one that needs work.

You must be able to do a lot of work yourself! Many shops will either charge a fortune or do stuff wrong, so if you have good tools, a Koala Motorsports repair CD, a Bentley Manual for the E30, and a brain, you can do lot of the maintenance yourself. Things like control arms, guibo, shfter parts, SI board, etc, etc.

Looking into buying one?

James
james_535@yahoo.com

well, to be honest, I was thinking of dropping the engine into a 2002. This would give a super unique car, with some power.

Also, no one would have to twist my arm to get me to own an e30 M3 either. I've got some good tools, and I'm definitly not afraid of getting dirty, so we'll just have to see at the end of the summer, where Mr. Pocketbook stands.

So, if I'm reading you right, the chain tensioner, and the chain assembly in gerneral seems to be the weakest part, and then there is the manifold support too.

Other than that, is there anything else?

James, thanks for the info!

This has been done many times. It's still unique, don't get me wrong. It is a bit of work, though.

There are two timing sensors on the bellhousing of the transmission. One senses a TDC pin, and the other senses the flywheel teeth. I was told by a BMW mechanic that the TDC sensor is used to start the car, then the other one counts flywheel teeth to maintain correct spark timing. You will need to cut this section out of a good tranny bellhousing if you want to use a 320i 5-speed. Or you can try to fit the M3's Getrag 265/6 with removable bellhousing. The 1985 535 and 635 use the same tranny, but different bellhousing.

You will need the M3 flywheel, complete wiring, flywheel sensors, intake with plenum, throttles, elbow, and AFM, headers, etc. You will have to find a way to adapt the throttle linkage to a cable. You need to adequately baffle an M10 oilpan, because I don't think the M3's 2-piece oilpan fits in the 2002. OR you can cut an weld on the M3's pans. Take your pick, you need a guy who can weld aluminum. You will also need to get a shortened driveshaft and custom exhaust. Also, get a 3.73, 3.91 or 4.11 diff with limited slip. The stock E30 M4 ratio is 4.10, tops out at 145-150 with 24" tall tires. Since the 2002 is so much lighter, you can probably get away with a 3.73 very easily. I don't know what ratios are available for the 2002.

Good Luck. You're gonna need it.

JamesM

I'm actually kind of glad that others have done this before me. Right now I'm still in the feasibility/planning stage.

I read somewhere that somebody has a "kit" for doing this swap, which might be useful. Where are good sources for E30 engines? How much should I expect them to cost?

James, thanks for the great thoughts on the swap. I think I read somewhere that it is WAY easier to use the 320i tranny, rather than the E30 M3 one, because of mounting issues.

We shall see what happens with this....

I do like the idea of rolling up next to someone with a 2002, and seeing their face as this little powerpack takes off.

he he he

Try Vintage Sports Racing, Korman, bimmerworld, Turner, Zionsville Autosport, Metric Mechanic, Top End Performance, etc. All these guys have done conversions and can get used and new parts and can/will do all the work, too. Where do you live??

JamesM

I'm in central New York.

Thanks for the list of places! I don't think that I'd want them doing the work though, cause that would take all the fun out of it for me. Right now my feeling is I want a good project to tide me over, and if I have someone else do it, it wouldn't be any fun, plus it would cost significantly more.

How much does a stock E30 M3 weigh? As a side note, I saw somewhere (I think boston BMW CCA) where a guy threw a E36 M3 Engine into an E30. Now that would be interesting too. But I think that would be a slightly more expensive swap. But on the other hand, if I got a good E30, then I'd have a donor motor for a 2002. (Woah, better control my brain, cause my pocketbook can't cash them checks)

Anyway, that would be cool.

Thanks for your help,

There is currently an E30 M3 motor for sale on autotrader. The link is: E30 M3 Motor 80k miles (http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/vdetail.jtmpl?car_id=67050332&dealer_id=&certified=n&max_price=&start_year=1900&end_year=1991&address=78669&search_type=used&make=BMW&model=M3&distance=&car_year=1990&ac_afflt=AUSTINCLASSIFIEDS.COM&borschtid=54499103890156016209)

I'm not sure if it is still for sale but I have seen it there for a while. Good luck if you do decide to do the conversion!

Oh yeah, you sound like a real gung-ho kinda guy. I would never let a shop do all the work (too expensive for one thing) because you then have someone else's car.

Anyway, the stock E30 M3 wejghs in under 2700lbs with fuel. With the majority of used E30 M3s being slightly modified (chip, muffler, other minor stuff), you can expect about 155-160RWHP. NOt a lot, yes, I know. They are getting old, and their high-stung engines have been strung out for fun an awful lot. A fresh 2.3L rebuild will have around 200HP at the crank. An inexpensive 2.5L conversion (crank, pistons, injectors, chip, 268 intake cam, Evo-2 cam gear, no head porting or big throttles/horns) will net about 230-240 crank HP. A more aggressive 2.5L rebuild includes the Evo-2 AFM (also found on any E28 535i), Evo-3 throttles and horns ($$$), header ($$$), head work including bigger valves and light porting, big cams, racing exhaust (no cat), and race fuel. They can net around 285-300 flywheel HP, and there are guys with over 250RWHP.

I would look for a good E30 M3 and go from there. That way you start with a more updated suspension, chassis, more comfort (rvs the 2002), and more opportunity to modify and be extremely fast. There are guys in E30 M3s running with the B-Mod E36 M3's, dicing for first overall. Then you can sell your S14 engine if you so choose for some trade-in money for an E36 engine. The conversion is very straightrforward, and costs about $8-10k for parts and some labor.

Or you could buy any old E30, install a complete used E30 M3 or E36 Z-car suspension (front and rear bolt right in!), and drop in any M50/S50 motor you choose. They are very nice, and even the AC fits. You now have huge brakes while retaining the cheaper stock parts (rotors, pads, calipers, seals, etc), wide array of shocks, springs, (go coil-over if you want a racer), and one helluva sleeper!

So what do you want to do? There are so many options, it really very hard to decide!

JamesM