I know that the MT would bring out the full potential of the car. But how is the AT, how much slower and how hard is it to get a nice launch since you can't dump the clutch after spooling the turbo's?

I would be better off with an AT because of the day to day traffic i deal with, but after doing a few runs with my brothers SC 2.8 passat[AT] vs 1.8T jetta[mt] i saw how much the AT was hurting his cars performance. We were both convinced[jetta driver as well] that the passat would pull by 3-4 lengths but it was the opposite.:confused

Well, for one, the 2.8 VR6 has about the same output specs as the 1.8Ts (roughly 200hp/tq albeit with different curves...I had a 2003 GLI with the 2.8 and performance wise it was about the same as the 1.8Ts but I didn't like the turbo lag and drooled over the engineering of the VR). Then the Passat is heavier, then add in a pretty average AT, and of course the Passat was slower.

Contrast this with the BMW AT, super fast shift times, torque converter almost always locked, and optimized gearing, which makes the AT about as fast for drivers skilled with MT and faster than MT for the guy with average shift times. Look around here, there are tons of articles linked for Edmunds, Road and Track, etc that have the AT in the 4.9s range to 60.

MT is still what it is, but the Steptronic in the 335 is a competitive alternative.

If your a shifting god, then MT and AT are almost identical, if your just an enthusiast, the AT will be faster.

If your a shifting god, then MT and AT are almost identical, if your just an enthusiast, the AT will be faster.
AT cars are usually heavier, have different gearing ratios and more power loss in the torque converter, so if it is the exact same car, MT will be fatser provided you are not a newbie with the clutch. Even BMW quotes the MT faster by 0.2 sec (5.4 v.s. 5.6).

MT cars are usually heavier, have different gearing ratios and more power loss in the torque converter, so if it is the exact same car, MT will be fatser provided you are not a newbie with the clutch. Even BMW quotes the MT faster by 0.2 sec (5.4 v.s. 5.6).

Did you mean to say AT cars are usually heavier? Because I have never heard of an MT car being heavier.

As far as Auto Transmissions go, the one on the 335i is about the best that you will find right now.

I went and test drove a brand new S-tronic Audi TT this weekend just for the hell of it, and honestly there was hardly any difference in the two. The S-tronic is supposedly the benchmark AT right now. The only slight difference I noticed was on the downshift, with the S-tronic being slightly quicker. But really there is not much difference between the two

I know that the MT would bring out the full potential of the car. But how is the AT, how much slower and how hard is it to get a nice launch since you can't dump the clutch after spooling the turbo's?


Actally the 335 step has been running quicker times at the track than the manuals, mainly due to the ability to load the turbos at the starting line. I don't think you can go wrong either way. :)

FWIW I've been able to cut low 1.8 60' times with my step and tiny 245/45/17 Nitto Drag Radials.

Did you mean to say AT cars are usually heavier? Because I have never heard of an MT car being heavier.


corrected typo. Yes, AT is usually heavier. In case of the 335i, it is very minimal 3594MT v.s. 3605AT. It is more pronounced in the 328 (3340 vs 3406). See http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/4E9885F5-9E83-4AFB-B999-1DF5F2A3C893/0/3_Sedan_brochure_new.pdf.

Did you mean to say AT cars are usually heavier? Because I have never heard of an MT car being heavier.

As far as Auto Transmissions go, the one on the 335i is about the best that you will find right now.

I went and test drove a brand new S-tronic Audi TT this weekend just for the hell of it, and honestly there was hardly any difference in the two. The S-tronic is supposedly the benchmark AT right now. The only slight difference I noticed was on the downshift, with the S-tronic being slightly quicker. But really there is not much difference between the two


The S-Tronic is NOT an automatic transmission. It's a dual clutch system with a computer controlled clutch. It's fundamentally the same as a MT (not torque converter loss)...so it provides the advantage of a manual with the speed of a computer controlled shift.

Actally the 335 step has been running quicker times at the track than the manuals, mainly due to the ability to load the turbos at the starting line. I don't think you can wrong either way. :)

FWIW I've been able to cut low 1.8 60' times with my step and tiny 245/45/17 Nitto Drag Radials.


What RPM are you usually launching at to get those trap times?

Well, for one, the 2.8 VR6 has about the same output specs as the 1.8Ts (roughly 200hp/tq albeit with different curves...I had a 2003 GLI with the 2.8 and performance wise it was about the same as the 1.8Ts but I didn't like the turbo lag and drooled over the engineering of the VR). Then the Passat is heavier, then add in a pretty average AT, and of course the Passat was slower.


I forgot to mention that the Jetta was chipped and the "SC" before 2.8 ment supercharged. The fuel trim isn't completely tuned yet but i still thought we would pull from a 40roll.



So the step on the 335, runs similar to the SMG2?

So the step on the 335, runs similar to the SMG2?
NOooooooooooooooooooo, it's an auto tran with psuedo-manual shifting.

What RPM are you usually launching at to get those trap times?

It does vary on the track conditions, but generally I push the brake and then push the gas up to around 1700rpm. When the second yellow comes on, I mash the gas and let off the brake.

It does vary on the track conditions, but generally I push the brake and then push the gas up to around 1700rpm. When the second yellow comes on, I mash the gas and let off the brake.
Isn't that bad for the transmission/torque converter? much worse than dumping clutch at high RPM?

Isn't that bad for the transmission/torque converter? much worse than dumping clutch at high RPM?

They key is limiting the shock of the drive train. Dropping the clutch at high rpm creates a lot of stress and while I've yet to hear of a 335i failure, it could lead to broken parts. I'd suggest you let the clutch out very fast -- but not dump it, to soften the blow.

With the automatic loading up the torque converter creates a lot of heat within the transmission and isn't great for it, but as long as it's for limited amounts of time shouldn't cause a failure.

Note that there is minimal torque converter loss in the 335 since it is locked up almost all the time.

Note that there is minimal torque converter loss in the 335 since it is locked up almost all the time.

+1!

Note that there is minimal torque converter loss in the 335 since it is locked up almost all the time.
explains why the 335 AT numbers are so close to the AT; also since the weight is almost identical, how'd they pull it off!

Note that there is minimal torque converter loss in the 335 since it is locked up almost all the time.

You have the stall figures or just basing that off assumption? The physical connection from engine to transmission is still very different.

"I drive in traffic" is not a reason to compromise on transmission choice on a 50K automobile.

It's a weak excuse to me.

I sit in 45min-1hr of traffic each way everyday and that didn't stop me from ordering a stick.

More to consider.

I may spend 80% of the car hating the MT each way to work in traffic. But on that 20% of the time that's MY time I'd hate myself more if I'd compromised with the autotragic.

"I drive in traffic" is not a reason to compromise on transmission choice on a 50K automobile.

It's a weak excuse to me.

I sit in 45min-1hr of traffic each way everyday and that didn't stop me from ordering a stick.

More to consider.

I may spend 80% of the car hating the MT each way to work in traffic. But on that 20% of the time that's MY time I'd hate myself more if I'd compromised with the autotragic.

Keep in mind the 335i is a different animal than the 328. On the 328 I agree a stick is much quicker.

This auto is awesome. Driving in traffic was THE reason I sold my last MT car and now own an AT. This is my daily commuter, and I just enjoy the drive. Plus, I've never mis-shifted my auto. Ever.

"I drive in traffic" is not a reason to compromise on transmission choice on a 50K automobile.

It's a weak excuse to me.

I sit in 45min-1hr of traffic each way everyday and that didn't stop me from ordering a stick.

More to consider.

I may spend 80% of the car hating the MT each way to work in traffic. But on that 20% of the time that's MY time I'd hate myself more if I'd compromised with the autotragic.

I've tried that reasoning many times. You buy a car to enjoy when you are out to enjoy it. If I bought a car for traffic it would be long and black and I'd be in the back seat.

Since I like to drive and enjoy the experience if it's a car I like that comes in MT, that's what I get. I live in the worst traffic in the country yet still don't have a problem pressing my leg down 3 inches.

If your a shifting god, then MT and AT are almost identical, if your just an enthusiast, the AT will be faster.

wow, that's like most incorrect thing i've seen on bf.c today! woo!

You have the stall figures or just basing that off assumption? The physical connection from engine to transmission is still very different.

I'm basing it on what I've read and on personal experience.

When the torque converter locks up there is a rigid connection between the engine and transmission gears just like with an engaged clutch.

It basically locks up at any speed above 10 mph (except when shifting, of course). I don't understand why you're talking about stall figures since it certainly wouldn't be locked up at stall. Obviously there would be some loss below 10 mph but you're not there for very long.

Driving it, both the tach and the engine sound are very like an MT with VERY smooth (but fast) clutch and accelerator work at the shifts. There is NO torque converter wind-up noticeable at the tach. It acts as though it's linked to the speedometer even when you floor the accelerator.

They key is limiting the shock of the drive train. Dropping the clutch at high rpm creates a lot of stress and while I've yet to hear of a 335i failure, it could lead to broken parts. I'd suggest you let the clutch out very fast -- but not dump it, to soften the blow.

With the automatic loading up the torque converter creates a lot of heat within the transmission and isn't great for it, but as long as it's for limited amounts of time shouldn't cause a failure.

Hello "Terry Burger":

Something unexpected I found out trying to simulate the vehicles on the computer. The inertia transfer from the engine due to the full throttle automatic shifts needs to be considered in the vehicle performance. Most people perform zero throttle manual shifts and therefore loose the effect of the engine rotational inertia. In my calculations, this can make a small but noticeable difference. Certainly enough to buy a few tenths of a second here and there.

^ and that is where heel-toe action comes into play.

I'm basing it on what I've read and on personal experience.

When the torque converter locks up there is a rigid connection between the engine and transmission gears just like with an engaged clutch.

It basically locks up at any speed above 10 mph (except when shifting, of course). I don't understand why you're talking about stall figures since it certainly wouldn't be locked up at stall. Obviously there would be some loss below 10 mph but you're not there for very long.

Driving it, both the tach and the engine sound are very like an MT with VERY smooth (but fast) clutch and accelerator work at the shifts. There is NO torque converter wind-up noticeable at the tach. It acts as though it's linked to the speedometer even when you floor the accelerator.

Torque converters and AT transmission lose power, bottom line.

it's interesting to see the different paradigms... most of the european and world markets are rushing to these new 'advanced' trannies as fast as they can get away from their clutches, while the US market has people hanging on to their cluthes with all their might even if it means driving stop/go traffic a mass majority of the time to enjoy isolated 'open road runs'.

Torque converters and AT transmission lose power, bottom line.

With the converter locked it's not much of a loss, and being able to load the turbos up off the line more than makes up for it. Then again the stick is going to be a lot better for road racing. It just depends what you want, but the auto is a little faster in a drag race.

Torque converters and AT transmission lose power, bottom line.

How does a torque converter lose power when it is locked up? Would you care to list the specific reasons for your statement and how they specifically relate to the 335 AT? Do you understand what happens when a torque converter is locked up?

If the steptronic in the 335i is so great, then why would BMW make the effort to create SMG?

It seems obvious to me that BMW still recognizes that a traditional clutch setup is still the best way of putting down the power.

If the steptronic in the 335i is so great, then why would BMW make the effort to create SMG?

It seems obvious to me that BMW still recognizes that a traditional clutch setup is still the best way of putting down the power.

from everything that i have read, the MT is market driven by the US market only. when it comes to trannies, bmw cannot seem to decide on a global market direction.

If the steptronic in the 335i is so great, then why would BMW make the effort to create SMG?

It seems obvious to me that BMW still recognizes that a traditional clutch setup is still the best way of putting down the power.
Definitely more efficient (judged easily by gas consumption among others) and don't forget less costly (although I believe they still make a good markup off the auto lovers).

from everything that i have read, the MT is market driven by the US market only. when it comes to trannies, bmw cannot seem to decide on a global market direction.
Huh? Ever been outside the US? Most of the world outside North America drives standard in far more numbers than auto. FFS, they even give you a manual rental as standard in Europe unless you specifically ask for an auto.

This is a question for all the MT owners. How does the clutch feel in this car? My buddy had an A4 and I remember that catch point being waaaaay off of the floor. My bro had an 87' 325 and that clutch was real tight and about an inch off of the floor. I personally prefer a tight clutch that's close to the floor but I'm wondering if since 1987, BMW went the way of VW and Audi and made their clutches similar. The clutch in the IS250 was real soft but at least it was close to the floor.

(Probably the only person in the world who's bought a 335i without test-driving)

they drive standard in far more numbers, but the purchase of new cars in the 'upper' price range of the 335 begins to attract buyers wanting the luxery of 'advanced' auto trannies.

(Probably the only person in the world who's bought a 335i without test-driving)

A lot of us took the jump without a test drive. :)

probably shoulda started a new thread under "How is the MT in the 335i"

I bought the MT version of the car without driving one. Every car has different clutch engagement points. The 335i has a really nice light clutch with a good progressive grab. I've been wheelin the MT since I was 16 and by far the hardest one to get used to was my 350Z. The Audi was fine (2003 A4) and the 335 feels great.

BUt they can't build cars for everybody's clutch preferences.

they drive standard in far more numbers, but the purchase of new cars in the 'upper' price range of the 335 begins to attract buyers wanting the luxery of 'advanced' auto trannies.


I think the truth would be older, and that makes it hard to move a leg and arm at the same time :)

I bought the MT version of the car without driving one. Every car has different clutch engagement points. The 335i has a really nice light clutch with a good progressive grab. I've been wheelin the MT since I was 16 and by far the hardest one to get used to was my 350Z. The Audi was fine (2003 A4) and the 335 feels great.

BUt they can't build cars for everybody's clutch preferences.

So you're saying the 335i has a clutch engagement point similar to the A4? I'm guessing that's about 3-4 inches off of the floor?

This is a question for all the MT owners. How does the clutch feel in this car? My buddy had an A4 and I remember that catch point being waaaaay off of the floor. My bro had an 87' 325 and that clutch was real tight and about an inch off of the floor. I personally prefer a tight clutch that's close to the floor but I'm wondering if since 1987, BMW went the way of VW and Audi and made their clutches similar. The clutch in the IS250 was real soft but at least it was close to the floor.

(Probably the only person in the world who's bought a 335i without test-driving)
If you prefer it closer to the floor, just slip your clutch every day (without overheating it) and it will self adjust and gradually your foot will come closer to the floor as the wears off :D. Or am I way off. Honestly I can't remember if my previous car's clutch was always that low, but I remember when I moved form the prelude I had it felt much higher and now this car is much higher, so I assumed it self adjusts but becomes deeper and needing more effort to engage!

So you're saying the 335i has a clutch engagement point similar to the A4? I'm guessing that's about 3-4 inches off of the floor?

No It's very progressive. I can't really tell where it's starting because it's smooth and natural. My A4 was probably a little higher. The movement isn't that far.

I have an AT because it's the only 335i coupe i could find in Dallas - i never order cars due to impatience. so that day in Feb there were only about 6 coupes in all of dallas & ft. worth and only one of them had nav...i had to have nav, but it was an AT.

i have always been an MT dude, but am EXTREMELY HAPPY with this AT...plain and simple: IT HAULS ASS.

the paddles do nothing for me; however, almost always use the manual shift function on the stick.

+1 on the paddles, I never use them, always just shift with the "stick". Next time BMW needs to mount the paddles to the steering column so they are always accessible, even in the curves.

(Probably the only person in the world who's bought a 335i without test-driving)

Nope...done it... I owned a 325 for 15 years before this one..Who needed a test drive? Heelllooooo...it's a BMW with TWIN TURBOS..Did I mention the twin turbos..nuff said. =)