I inquired about Fred's control arms yesterday and he replied back that they are no longer available.

I'm thinking of making my own custom control arms out of 1" diameter bar stock and heim (sp?) joints. Anyone know of a replacable (ie bolt on) outer ball joint that I could use and just bolt on to a custom control arm?

I would also make an a front control arm that mounts up by the sway bar to run back to the rear control arm, then make a sleeve that would slide over the sway bar and allow the sway bar to connect to the control arm using conventional sway bar links.

Im in the same boat as you, my control arms are shot. I was set on day one to make my own custom ones. I've started the design in soildworks yesterday, and all I can say is ajustable a-arms:buttrock, I will also be relocating my pickup points on the subframe up 20mm, to counter the extreme change in geometry when lowered. Also Im going to use johhny joints (yea rasta style ;)) instead of heim joints. The JJ are forged, rebuildible, greaseable, therfore will last longer and be stronger. And for the arm itself I will be using 2" 7075 Aluiminum, strong as hell and lightweight, not sure what coating I will be putting on.

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/johnnyjoints.aspx


And for the outer ball joint I will be using these
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/product.php?productid=202&cat=106&page=1

I will be pressing them in and using set skrews for piece of mind

oh fuck

I would definitely put a set of the CA's and TR's on my 323i once you get it sorted.

God you clowns wake up early... or is it just the time difference.

I don't know what Fred's control arms are like, but I didn't think they were tubular pieces. I thought it was just some Delrin or Poly inserts for normal ass control arms. If that's the case Josh, I'm more than happy to turn some for you on the lathe. Take me all of 15 minutes if you can find the right tubular stuff for the inside. I could make solid aluminum bushings too.

I've offered to do this before, but no one has ever taken me up on it. I mean if you're not in a super big hurry.

I would definitely put a set of the CA's and TR's on my 323i once you get it sorted.

I think I really am getting old... "TR's"? Totally Radical? Tough Rhinos? Time Raiders?

I will let everyone know when I get the first set made, hopefully they'll be done by the end of next month. I'll have them available it stock configuration and modified A-Arm style. Oh yes go help us all :pimpflash

God you clowns wake up early... or is it just the time difference.

I don't know what Fred's control arms are like, but I didn't think they were tubular pieces. I thought it was just some Delrin or Poly inserts for normal ass control arms. If that's the case Josh, I'm more than happy to turn some for you on the lathe. Take me all of 15 minutes if you can find the right tubular stuff for the inside. I could make solid aluminum bushings too.

I've offered to do this before, but no one has ever taken me up on it. I mean if you're not in a super big hurry.



I think I really am getting old... "TR's"? Totally Radical? Tough Rhinos? Time Raiders?

TR=TIE ROD.

That's correct, Freds control arms were just stock arms with poly bushings pressed in. If I had a lathe I could easily do the same. Since he no longer makes them, I figured if I'm messing with making something custom, I might as well scrap the whole thing and make it right from the start.

I was wondering if 2002 ball joints will mate up to our struts, the are $30 each. If so I could fab up a plate for them to bolt to, weld that to my 1" diameter steel tubing, the rest would be a simple heim joint on one end, and "front control arm" and swaybar attachment points. The front arm would just be a length adjustable tube with a heim joint at the front, similar to Dave Macintyre's (sp??) setup.

I may still think about just using stock control arms with custom bushings, but I want to find a set that will last longer the 10k (my bavauto arms didn't). I would just press the bushing right into the arm, no outter sleeve. There would need to be an inner sleeve to fit over the sway bar though. \

I have a CAD drawing on my computer at home of a 2 piece bushing design that could be made out of poly, delrin, or aluminum. I have not verified the dimensions on the drawing yet, so I don't know how good it is. I'll post it when I get home and get a chance.

I'm glad we have ME's up in here.

Josh, post up the CAD drawing.

here's is what I'm thinking about using for the ball joint. All I would need is a 1/4" steel plate for it to bolt to (which would be thicker than the stock 2002 stamped control arms) which would be welded to a 1" steel tube, probably 1/8" wall.

I would then weld a tab to the top of the tube for a sway bar link to bolt to. I'd use a sleeve slid over the end of the sway bar with a tab hanging off with 3 holes drilled to give adjustability. The sway bar link would just be 2 heim joints between the tabs.

I like the idea of a bolt on, off the shelf ball joing because it would be cheap and easy to replace when it goes bad, as would all the heim joints. Another added benifit of using a bolt on ball joint would be that it might change the angle of the control arm, spacing the outter end further down from the strut compared to a stock arm. This may eliminate the need to move the inner attachment point upward to maintain good geometry in cars that are lowered.

i would definitly be intrested in a set!

The news that Fred doesnt make his controll arms anymore is bad- my driver's side is bad and I was waiting for the next bonus to buy a set of his CA's.:( Is he selling just the Bushings for us to press in ourselves? Our Portland E21 group bought a press for like $20 a few years ago that I can use..

The guy who runs 2002restorations.com has told me in the past that a lot of the aftermarket front suspention parts for the 2002's are not as good as the original and dont hold up very long. I have replaced control arms 2x on my 78 320i, the second set being from BMW ($$) but they went past the 3 year mark at least..

If you need any steel, tubing plate, etc. We throw that stuff away. I'd be willing to send it up to you.

Would that ball joint fit our struts? It looks awfully short.

I smell a 3D CAD battle on the horizon.

Would that ball joint fit our struts? It looks awfully short.

I smell a 3D CAD battle on the horizon.

yea, I think it is. I've been looking for ball joints so I check the OEM manufacturer LEMFÖRDER, and they no longer make them for the E21, stopped in 04', so I'll have to find a replacement ball joint manufacturer. I'm going to look into Moog. I'll keep every one posted

Moog is Federal Mogul, baby!! :buttrock

Moog is Federal Mogul, baby!! :buttrock

Shameless plug. I know the Typhoon and Syclone guys would only use Moog stuff.

Vac Motor Sport had built a front suspension for one of thier customers
red e21 race cars.

Any body know about that project.

Might they be able to help.

Vac Motor Sport had built a front suspension for one of thier customers
red e21 race cars.

Any body know about that project.

Might they be able to help.

http://www.davidmcintyre.org/

yeah, Dave's car is where I got most of my idea. It's a really simple setup, though I bet he paid a fortune for it. I have all those pics saved.

I want to do something similar, but I want ball joints with dust boots if I can find some that will bolt on to a custom plate welded to that control arm.

If I decide to go that route I may or may not try to use speedway engineering sway bars. Either way I have custom brackets. I think I can make a bracket to make the stock sway bar work with that setup.

Here's the sway bar bushing drawing I have. If you want it in .dwg format email me.

Cool. But Josh is this a universal design for control arms?

Cause I have the older style on my 323i and if Fred does not make them,
maybe I can get Nic to press in some urethane bushings....

Cool. But Josh is this a universal design for control arms?

Cause I have the older style on my 323i and if Fred does not make them,
maybe I can get Nic to press in some urethane bushings....

No, it cant be, the arms have a different geometry and design. The pre 80 CA's dont have any bushings pressed in, they are cone bushings with a sleeve that are held into the depression on the CA by the washer/nut sway bar connection. You have asked this quite a few times already.

2" bar stock in a 95A 90A or 75D runs about 100bucks for 2 feet (McMaster). It takes about 5 inches to make two bushings for the sway bar. So I could make 4 sets out of a 100 dollar piece of bar stock. Coming out to 25 bucks a set, not including the sleeve (which I could also cut to length on the lathe), washers, or hardware. Obviously the price goes down the more sets I make. But 4 sets is a couple hours of my time. That's not even including a different set for the control arm to cross member bushing.

Delrin rod runs 64 bucks a foot in a 2 inch size.

Are these still available from the dealer? As far as suspension parts goes, OE parts last longer than ANY other replacement.

Cool. But Josh is this a universal design for control arms?

Cause I have the older style on my 323i and if Fred does not make them,
maybe I can get Nic to press in some urethane bushings....
no, this is for the later style control arm. Making the same thing for your arm would be very easy, the steps are as follows:

1) Buy a set of stock bushings
2) Have a machine shop copy them
3) If you can't find someone to do that, measure them, draw them up, and have a machine shop make them based on your prints.

Didn't Jason from the UK post a site several times from a company that makes poly bushings for the older style control arms?

Are these still available from the dealer? As far as suspension parts goes, OE parts last longer than ANY other replacement.

Yes, control arms are still available as OEM replacements. The control to sway bar bushings on all OEM and all aftermarket control arms suck goat choad. Fred used to sell control arms with custom machined bushings to replace the lousy factory bushings.

In fact, the entire front suspension design sucks hairy, sweaty goat choad, which is why I want to do something like Dave McIntyre did. I just don't want to pay VAC motorsports $1000 for a some design work and welding that I can do myself and bunch of off the shelf $5 heim joints.

You point about OEM parts lasting longer is why I want to find a good ball joint with dust boot instead of using a heim joint like VAC did.

2" bar stock in a 95A 90A or 75D runs about 100bucks for 2 feet (McMaster). It takes about 5 inches to make two bushings for the sway bar. So I could make 4 sets out of a 100 dollar piece of bar stock. Coming out to 25 bucks a set, not including the sleeve (which I could also cut to length on the lathe), washers, or hardware. Obviously the price goes down the more sets I make. But 4 sets is a couple hours of my time. That's not even including a different set for the control arm to cross member bushing.

Delrin rod runs 64 bucks a foot in a 2 inch size.
Thanks for offering your time to do this man. If I do end up going that route I'd pay for more than just cost of material.

The cost of the material is one of the reasons I haven't gone that route already. I have the design and access to a machine shop, just don't want to pay $100 for material right now.

That is one reason why I was thinking about just filling the stock bushings with poly casting compound for $30 like we've done for the rear bushings. I posted a link to a diy in the faq thread a while ago. It would be cheap and easy and the guy said it made a big difference in his arms.

Anyone can get their hands on a Toyota camry lower control arm? I seen they use the same design as on the e21, just one lower arm and the sway bar as a lateral link. My Meyle control arm lasted around 12k, and the sawy bar bushing when it goes gives your control arm like an inch of travel forard and backwards, not ideal on 70-80mph traffic.
I have the same idea as Josh, but I don't have a ME degree, I just do a lot of measurements and ideas in my head, plus some pics from Vac and some cars from the Kubbel cup.
The VAC piece looks the more complicated and expensive, there is something simple:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/tucumano/PICT0208_jpg.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/tucumano/PICT0206_jpg.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a226/tucumano/PICT0234_jpg.jpg
I don't see a front swaybar, just a straight control arm and another straight heim jointed link from the CA to the sawybar mounting point

I will let everyone know when I get the first set made, hopefully they'll be done by the end of next month. I'll have them available it stock configuration and modified A-Arm style. Oh yes go help us all :pimpflash

let me know when, factory pieces suck goat choad (as JR said)

If Fred was just having a shop put in new bushings... couldn't someone pick up the slack and find another shop to do the same thing? Or am I missing something?

his control arms had a better quality ball joint, the ones I got from BavAuto got thrashed in less than 12k of regular driving, no autox or track. (it would have been less if driven hard)

out of curiosity I looked up the Moog part number on FM's website:

Left
K9119

right
K9121

Moog is in a different division than I'm in, but I may try to contact a product design guy at corporate to get a part print and to see if the ball joint component is used in any other ball joints. Not likely, but you never know.

I'm going to sound crazy here, but whatever.

The E21 front suspension is an absolute disaster. I'll stand by that statement with a beanie on my head, and dial calipers in my hand.

The caster angle, coupled with the front "sway bar" control arm radius makes the top of the strut tower have to flex forward during upward travel. The sway bar design "binds" and the stiffer bearing surfaces that we all seem to want also are restrictive of free movement. I'm raking my hand through my hair, and raking my brain, but It needs a re-design. It's just crap.

It needs the sway bar/control arm mounted about 3 inches higher, and well. It just sucks.

If you don't understand, then no conversation. If you do: Where do we go from here? What did the group 5 guys do? What makes it work like a Swiss watch? It's just such befuddled engineering. I can't think of a good "shade-tree" solution. :(

Shit. JR, you gotta have some ideas. Please. :help

Thanks for offering your time to do this man. If I do end up going that route I'd pay for more than just cost of material.

The cost of the material is one of the reasons I haven't gone that route already. I have the design and access to a machine shop, just don't want to pay $100 for material right now.

That is one reason why I was thinking about just filling the stock bushings with poly casting compound for $30 like we've done for the rear bushings. I posted a link to a diy in the faq thread a while ago. It would be cheap and easy and the guy said it made a big difference in his arms.

I bet joe would swallow the rest of the cost for the opportunity for me to make some older style mounts for his car. And I'm sure a few other folks on here would jump at the opportunity to have some Poly or Delrin mounts. Get some interest out there (new thread probably) and I can get some final cost all ready.

I'm so down to help people out with their projects. I have access to a 3 axis hand mill, press break, and a bunch of other sheet metal stuff. I'm the machine shop manager so I can get in on weekends and do a few things. I just can't run a business out of the thing. I can also do 3D CAD and do a scaled down rapid proto model of some suspension stuff if you want (I did this in college once). They grow your suspension in one piece with the joints and everything. It moves just like the real suspension does. It's sick.

I'm going to sound crazy here, but whatever.

The E21 front suspension is an absolute disaster. I'll stand by that statement with a beanie on my head, and dial calipers in my hand.

The caster angle, coupled with the front "sway bar" control arm radius makes the top of the strut tower have to flex forward during upward travel. The sway bar design "binds" and the stiffer bearing surfaces that we all seem to want also are restrictive of free movement. I'm raking my hand through my hair, and raking my brain, but It needs a re-design. It's just crap.

It needs the sway bar/control arm mounted about 3 inches higher, and well. It just sucks.

If you don't understand, then no conversation. If you do: Where do we go from here? What did the group 5 guys do? What makes it work like a Swiss watch? It's just such befuddled engineering. I can't think of a good "shade-tree" solution. :(

Shit. JR, you gotta have some ideas. Please. :help


There is no binding going on or undo stress on the strut tower because of the ball joint as far as the strut is concerned. The sway bar linking does leave something to be desired (I'll give out that). But if you remove the struts form both sides of the car it does move freely. The angles are pretty good and the system doesn't really bind the way you're describing it.

I think you might be a little too critical of the stock design. Just like any suspension system it has its limits. When you lower the car, put new bushings in, etc. things change and you start running the suspension outside of its given normal parameters. People who go through ball joints quickly are doing just that. My Typhoon was the same way. Say it "sucks" is a little much.

I'm going to sound crazy here, but whatever.

The E21 front suspension is an absolute disaster. I'll stand by that statement with a beanie on my head, and dial calipers in my hand.

The caster angle, coupled with the front "sway bar" control arm radius makes the top of the strut tower have to flex forward during upward travel. The sway bar design "binds" and the stiffer bearing surfaces that we all seem to want also are restrictive of free movement. I'm raking my hand through my hair, and raking my brain, but It needs a re-design. It's just crap.

It needs the sway bar/control arm mounted about 3 inches higher, and well. It just sucks.

If you don't understand, then no conversation. If you do: Where do we go from here? What did the group 5 guys do? What makes it work like a Swiss watch? It's just such befuddled engineering. I can't think of a good "shade-tree" solution. :(

Shit. JR, you gotta have some ideas. Please. :help
I'm not sure what the group 5 cars used, but its my understanding they had to use stock suspension attachment points. I agree with you, the design is terrible. The sway bar rotation radius pulls the control arm forward as the suspension compresses putting the whole thing in a bind. Really that movement is so minute due to the length of the radius and the small amount the suspension is compressing its not really an issue. At least our sway bar rotates, the 2002 front suspension had a stamped steel control arm with a long link that mounts on either end with nothing more than rubber bushings, like a 1 foot long sway bar end link.

Even the custom setups we have seen probably do this to some degree since the front link does not rotate on the exact same axis as the control arm pivot. Even if its off slightly, the axis of rotation between the 2 points moves which creates a trailing arm effect.

You COULD mount the sway bar higher if you cut the boxes off the frame rails, but i'm not sure you'd be able to bolt things back up with the bend in the sway bar there since the boxes stick inward about 1.5".

I have lots of ideas right now. If I do try a custom setup, I want it to be something that is as close to bolt on as possible so others could do the same thing easily. I don't want to move attachment points. Me doing a custom front setup also depends on finding a replacable ball joint, I don't want to be replacing heim joints every spring.

One of my ideas is to box the sway bar brackets with 1.5" 1/4" wall square tubing and weld an alpina-like "wonder bar" between them to make them all one piece and provide much more torsional rigidity than the straight bolt on bar. I don't like the alpina bars, there is no surface area to distribute load, and they can't really do much more than contol frame rail spread.

I could also use those blocks to provide bolt-on attachment points for a front control arm. To retain the use of the stock sway bar I would simply rotate the bar above the control arm, slide a sleeve over the end that slides into the stock bushing, and run a link down to the custom control arm. That sleeve would have a rail running down its length with 3 holes in it to give a degree of stiffness adjustability.

his control arms had a better quality ball joint, the ones I got from BavAuto got thrashed in less than 12k of regular driving, no autox or track. (it would have been less if driven hard)
The ball joints weren't better than stock, they just weren't inferior cheapo's that most places sell. I had bavauto arms and tie rods and they lasted a whopping 15k. I currently have a rattle in the steering column cause the ball joints are so loose. :buttrock

If I can't find a suitable ball joint for a custom setup, I'm going to just buy the best set of stock arms I can find, pop the bushings out, measure them up to verify the the dimensions on the drawing I already have and have my local machine shop whip them up in aluminum. I don't want that shit moving, i don't see why aluminum would be a problem as I have a rubber bushing at the control arm to subframe and a poly bushing on the sway bar.

Shoot, it would take one of my toolroom guys here a couple hours to complete a "government job" (aka not work related... haha).

There is no binding going on or undo stress on the strut tower because of the ball joint as far as the strut is concerned. The sway bar linking does leave something to be desired (I'll give out that). But if you remove the struts form both sides of the car it does move freely. The angles are pretty good and the system doesn't really bind the way you're describing it.
yeah, it doesn't really "bind". Even the control arm pulling forward doesn't cause any problems with the strut. With the strut hanging freely you can move the strut in any direction 3 or 4" as well.

I'm going to be watching this thread quite closely. some of these ideas (like Dave McIntyre's suspension) sound very good for the track...
Jake

I'd like to offer up my 323i for testing and R&D. I promise to drive the piss out of it for you, shoot, I'll even sport an AllYourRiceBelongToUs sticker :buttrock

:rofl Nice. If I ever go into the hotrod business with my buddy our shop name is going to be "Sledge Hammer Engineering". Will you sport one of those pics?

:rofl Nice. If I ever go into the hotrod business with my buddy our shop name is going to be "Sledge Hammer Engineering". Will you sport one of those pics?

Are you kidding, I'll tattoo that on my forehead. I will go down in E21 history!

haha.

well dang guys, the more i think about this... if I can't find ball joints I'm just going to do aluminum bushings in a stock arm and call it good enough. That won't move one bit and it really shouldn't be any more harsh than a fully boxed A arm would be.

So that brings the question: Where do I buy top quality control arms?

I can get TRW arms for $66 each and Moog for $99 each.

Both are Federal Mogul owned or affiliated. I wonder if they're any good?

Both are Federal Mogul owned or affiliated. I wonder if they're any good?
Probably not.

Arnt the Meyle CA's the better ones to get? I got mine from a seller on eBay named BusyBee.

He carries both pre and post arms. I got mine for $130 shipped, which was actually cheaper than he advertised.

how long have u had them in, cj?

about 600 miles worth

CJ did you have Fred provide you with the urethane bushings for the older style arms that you got from busy bee.or are these NLA as well.

I had Lemforder for 5 years on a 2 1/2 inch lower 77 320i, I had Meyle for 8 months, and the left side started to have play on the ball joint.
I have a set of CA bushings from Fred (when he was selling them separate) that i can take a pic of and measurements.

I email Vac today and asked if they could create a bolt in kit.

they responded , I then asked for a price.

Our kit is designed to fit stock struts, but with minor modification to the tie rod hole and the ball joint hole of the strut. We typically drill them out to accommodate larger harder for reliability issues, but we can also look at making a taper adapter that will make them strictly a bolt on. Let me know if you have any additional questions.





Regards,



Tony Salloum



VAC Motorsports

2515 Snyder Ave.

Phila, PA 19145

So that brings the question: Where do I buy top quality control arms?

The dealer, im tellin ya theyre the best quality, and if the bushings are the problem, your makin aluminum ones anyway

I email Vac today and asked if they could create a bolt in kit.

they responded , I then asked for a price.

Regards,
Tony Salloum
VAC Motorsports

did they tell you the price??? Is it less than an e36?